greenstone
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Post by greenstone on Jul 26, 2014 10:32:57 GMT -5
It's a shame the situation had become so toxic but you're doing the right thing by getting your mentally prepared for various outcomes and gathering information.
I would suggest keeping a very detailed list of your job duties on the new assignment. If you can't claim this temporary reassignment is a disciplinary action against you than neither can she, which begs the question of why she took the agency's sole subject matter expert and turned him into a furniture mover and trash hauler. If her investigations uncover minor findings at best, then taking such a strong action for little or no reason may call her management decisions into question.
I would aslo document when and what incorrect statements she made to you about disciplinary actions she intended to take (insubordination, removal of duties, etc). Repeatedly making false or misleading statements to you could be seen as attempt to threaten or intimidate you which could reinforce the case for blatantly hostile treatment if it comes down to a fight.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 26, 2014 10:44:28 GMT -5
I don't understand how she can transfer you to doing a job that you don't have the qualifications/certifications/training for? especially since I'm sure the position you were hired into didn't have those listed as job duties. "Other duties as assigned" Pretty much.
Management can reassign you to do anything.
Granted, safety is a bit of a concern. I have to work with a lot of tools and lift heavy stuff. I don't want to throw my back out, or hurt myself. I'm not so worried about using hand tools as something like a power saw. I've never really used a power saw before and hope they don't want me to use one.
So far, the only bad thing is my shoulder hurts a bit from the repetitive motion of hammering all day.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jul 26, 2014 10:48:31 GMT -5
You are handling this really well. Not sure I could stay at a job like that.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 26, 2014 10:48:47 GMT -5
I'm friends with a guy who's about my age from when I was working for the Navy. I'm also good friends with his dad, who was a Navy Captain, but now is retired and high level executive for a government contractor. Back in May, he wanted to me to apply for a job for a contract that his company was going to get awarded in February. I politely declined, and he obviously had no hard feelings about it.
I suppose if nothing else, I could do that.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 26, 2014 10:50:34 GMT -5
You are handling this really well. Not sure I could stay at a job like that. Well, I probably wouldn't put up with it if it wasn't a government job.
It will be easier to get another government job if you work for the government. And I want to avoid having a termination on my record, or even a resignation. Even having a resignation would probably raise some uncomfortable questions from another government employer.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jul 26, 2014 12:50:19 GMT -5
If you resigned to take a job with a government contractor and later applied for another government job, there would likely be no red flags raised at all. That is not an unusual occurrence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 20:51:16 GMT -5
She could have assigned you to do paperwork, reports, a desk job but she is choosing to make you do these physical and really things that are, umm, I don't want to necessarily say beneath you but let's face it you are a scientist not the garbage man to haul trash, etc. I think she is definitely trying to chase you out of there for one reason or another. I, personally, didn't get my engineering degree to break down boxes, hammer things or to haul trash. Sure I would do those things as part of a project, task but not as the full time job itself. Is there anything in employee handbook or anything that describes what the limits of your temporary assignment can be? You may have made a mistake but this just doesn't seem right. The punishment is not fitting the crime, especially since you are not even being told what the crime is exactly! It is like judge first, prove later. I guess that is how government operates though.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 26, 2014 23:23:44 GMT -5
She could have assigned you to do paperwork, reports, a desk job but she is choosing to make you do these physical and really things that are, umm, I don't want to necessarily say beneath you but let's face it you are a scientist not the garbage man to haul trash, etc. I think she is definitely trying to chase you out of there for one reason or another. I, personally, didn't get my engineering degree to break down boxes, hammer things or to haul trash. Sure I would do those things as part of a project, task but not as the full time job itself. Is there anything in employee handbook or anything that describes what the limits of your temporary assignment can be? You may have made a mistake but this just doesn't seem right. The punishment is not fitting the crime, especially since you are not even being told what the crime is exactly! It is like judge first, prove later. I guess that is how government operates though. A good point. She probably chose this particular duty because she figured it would be the most unpleasant, or otherwise invoke a reaction out of me, therefore giving her more ammunition. Or maybe she just views me as a dumb brute, who knows?
My understanding is a detail cannot extend more than 120 days. I'm not sure what the rules are on assigning one detail after another though. I guess in theory you could do it, but I can't imagine her justifying paying someone over 80k a year to haul trash and take apart furniture indefinitely.
I think the severity of the findings she presents will be open to interpretation. She'll blow things out of proportion though, because that's what she does. I guess it will all come down to my ability to put things in perspective and try to make her out to be the aggressive bad guy.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 26, 2014 23:25:51 GMT -5
At this point - figuring out her next move - or philosophizing on the situation is a waste of energy. I would consider this gig toast - and high tail it out of there asap. I would go along with procedures to string out the current paycheck for as long as I needed or could manage it, but I would 100% focus on the job search. Good luck. You have a point. It's hard not to philosophize on it though, since it's hard to stop thinking about it.
I agree though, it's over. And ultimately getting a new job is the only solution. I plan on stringing out the current job as long as possible until I can make that happen.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 26, 2014 23:30:00 GMT -5
Phoenix84, I've been following your trials and tribulations on this job. I'm really sorry you're going through something like this. From what you've said, I can see no evidence this woman has made any effort to help you understand what she expects. If your expectations aren't clear, it's pretty foolish to expect to have them met. Glad you're working with HR, and keeping copies of everything. Just be sure to document, document, document. Do what you have to do, hon, for as long as you have to do it. In the meantime, looking for a better place to use your skills is probably the best you can do. There's something out there for you. Finding it should be your concentration now. Best of luck to you. I hope you find the perfect job that will give you a place to shine and allow you to bring your skills into an appreciative environment. Thanks.
That's ideally how things should work. As a regulatory authority, I have to deal with people who don't do what they need to do in a timely manner. When doing it, I try to treat them like adults and professionals, and don't jump to straight throwing the book at them.
I have to convince PH'D's to follow regulations. These are smart guys and gals, and brow beating them will have the opposite effect. It's tough, but you need to convince them that your way is the right way. You need to work with them and help them understand your point of view. It is time consuming, it is slow, but ultimately it's the best way.
She had made no effort to do this. She had been my supervisor for barely over a month before starting up with disciplinary action.
I think she's in over her head and extremely insecure. I think if she was more experienced, she wouldn't be doing half the things she's doing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 23:32:35 GMT -5
"I think the severity of the findings she presents will be open to interpretation. She'll blow things out of proportion though, because that's what she does. I guess it will all come down to my ability to put things in perspective and try to make her out to be the aggressive bad guy."
At this point I would just try to hang on until I found something new. Even if you make her out to be the aggressive bad guy and you win your appeal (if it comes to that), even if she leaves, do you really want to stick around? The whole process of everything you are describing sounds so idiotic to me. You either made a big enough mistake and they can and do fire you for it or it wasn't big enough to justify firing. To assign you to the particular tasks she did is just dumb!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 27, 2014 6:04:48 GMT -5
Is there a reason you won't contact A lawyer?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 9:52:42 GMT -5
She could have assigned you to do paperwork, reports, a desk job but she is choosing to make you do these physical and really things that are, umm, I don't want to necessarily say beneath you but let's face it you are a scientist not the garbage man to haul trash, etc. I think she is definitely trying to chase you out of there for one reason or another. I, personally, didn't get my engineering degree to break down boxes, hammer things or to haul trash. Sure I would do those things as part of a project, task but not as the full time job itself. Is there anything in employee handbook or anything that describes what the limits of your temporary assignment can be? You may have made a mistake but this just doesn't seem right. The punishment is not fitting the crime, especially since you are not even being told what the crime is exactly! It is like judge first, prove later. I guess that is how government operates though. A good point. She probably chose this particular duty because she figured it would be the most unpleasant, or otherwise invoke a reaction out of me, therefore giving her more ammunition. Or maybe she just views me as a dumb brute, who knows?
My understanding is a detail cannot extend more than 120 days. I'm not sure what the rules are on assigning one detail after another though. I guess in theory you could do it, but I can't imagine her justifying paying someone over 80k a year to haul trash and take apart furniture indefinitely.
I think the severity of the findings she presents will be open to interpretation. She'll blow things out of proportion though, because that's what she does. I guess it will all come down to my ability to put things in perspective and try to make her out to be the aggressive bad guy.
Phoenix, I work for the government also, and I know all agencies have different rules. We have details also, and you can only stay in a detail for a certain amount of time. With my agency, if you go 91 days straight without performing the duties of your regular job because you're on a detail, you can lose your job. You'll still be employed by the agency, but your specific job doesn't belong to you anymore. It gets posted for other people to apply to it. In some areas, you can't reapply for a job you've lost that way, you have to find something else. The rules may be different where you are, but I think you should find out, just in case. You don't want to be lingering on a detail for too long and find out after it's too late. I know you're looking for employment elsewhere, but I wouldn't want you to get tripped up on the details of working a detail in the meantime. I urge you to look into it. BTW, I've never heard of a detail like the one you're describing, which sounds more like punishment. Our details are usually to temporarily fill a job slot that's empty, or fill in for someone that's on another detail or out for an extended period of time for some other reason. It's usually an opportunity to learn something in another area, completely different from your normal job and can be a stepping stone to moving up or around.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 27, 2014 15:05:18 GMT -5
I guess all agencies and buildings are different. At my building that sort of stuff is handled by contacted staff. A co-worker of mine just transferred to the big group in my building. He knew where his new desk would be and our IT guys have a cart you can borrow. They lost their mind when he suggested moving his own boxes. I can't see anyone being detailed to contractors. Usually ours are to replace a very high up person temporarily, a try out of sorts or to learn new skills.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 15:40:26 GMT -5
I guess all agencies and buildings are different. At my building that sort of stuff is handled by contacted staff. A co-worker of mine just transferred to the big group in my building. He knew where his new desk would be and our IT guys have a cart you can borrow. They lost their mind when he suggested moving his own boxes. I can't see anyone being detailed to contractors. Usually ours are to replace a very high up person temporarily, a try out of sorts or to learn new skills. We have "building maintenance" employees that handle the kind of things Phoenix is describing. They don't even assign us blue collar workers to move furniture and assemble things, and certainly not the professional or titled employees. Not that that kind of work is beneath any of us, it's just that if they move you around for whatever reason, it's to something related to your normal job. Engineers and HR specialists aren't going to be forced to come work on the workroom floor in any capacity or do any kind of manual labor. Details are something you apply for and they may be completely unrelated to your regular job. People apply for details to try something new or learn new skills, as you mentioned. They may call what they have Phoenix doing a detail, but it sounds more like punishment to me. But like we've both said, all agencies and buildings are probably different. Maybe the lines are so clearly drawn at my particular workplace because of the unions.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 27, 2014 19:52:23 GMT -5
I guess all agencies and buildings are different. At my building that sort of stuff is handled by contacted staff. A co-worker of mine just transferred to the big group in my building. He knew where his new desk would be and our IT guys have a cart you can borrow. They lost their mind when he suggested moving his own boxes. I can't see anyone being detailed to contractors. Usually ours are to replace a very high up person temporarily, a try out of sorts or to learn new skills. We have "building maintenance" employees that handle the kind of things Phoenix is describing. They don't even assign us blue collar workers to move furniture and assemble things, and certainly not the professional or titled employees. Not that that kind of work is beneath any of us, it's just that if they move you around for whatever reason, it's to something related to your normal job. Engineers and HR specialists aren't going to be forced to come work on the workroom floor in any capacity or do any kind of manual labor. Details are something you apply for and they may be completely unrelated to your regular job. People apply for details to try something new or learn new skills, as you mentioned. They may call what they have Phoenix doing a detail, but it sounds more like punishment to me. But like we've both said, all agencies and buildings are probably different. Maybe the lines are so clearly drawn at my particular workplace because of the unions. It might be that way in my building too due to the union. I'm an inspector general auditor so we have to be independent and impartial so we can't belong to the union. However, it is my understanding that the agency division that occupies the building and has their name on it is big into the union. I think there's also a big dividing line because we are federal employees and they are contractors. It could be different there and it could be that what she is doing is not allowed. Administrative duties are one thing, what he is describing is a much different story.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 20:24:02 GMT -5
We have "building maintenance" employees that handle the kind of things Phoenix is describing. They don't even assign us blue collar workers to move furniture and assemble things, and certainly not the professional or titled employees. Not that that kind of work is beneath any of us, it's just that if they move you around for whatever reason, it's to something related to your normal job. Engineers and HR specialists aren't going to be forced to come work on the workroom floor in any capacity or do any kind of manual labor. Details are something you apply for and they may be completely unrelated to your regular job. People apply for details to try something new or learn new skills, as you mentioned. They may call what they have Phoenix doing a detail, but it sounds more like punishment to me. But like we've both said, all agencies and buildings are probably different. Maybe the lines are so clearly drawn at my particular workplace because of the unions. It might be that way in my building too due to the union. I'm an inspector general auditor so we have to be independent and impartial so we can't belong to the union. However, it is my understanding that the agency division that occupies the building and has their name on it is big into the union. I think there's also a big dividing line because we are federal employees and they are contractors. It could be different there and it could be that what she is doing is not allowed. Administrative duties are one thing, what he is describing is a much different story. and that's why I suggested he check with HR. 'other duties as assigned' does not mean absolutely anything, especially anything that requires safety training.
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Jul 29, 2014 9:25:30 GMT -5
This detail really does seem quite inappropriate. I imagine things would come to a head quite quickly if you were injured on the job.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jul 29, 2014 9:50:35 GMT -5
This detail really does seem quite inappropriate. I imagine things would come to a head quite quickly if you were injured on the job. Yeah, I'm a local gov't employee - our "other duties as assigned" is usually less than 5% of the actual workload. We don't have "details" per se though. ETA - I distracted myself - document the soreness in your shoulder, to CYA and possibly screw up hers.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jul 29, 2014 10:02:49 GMT -5
I'd start applying for a cushy hospital RSO position.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 29, 2014 14:28:19 GMT -5
You need to get serious about protecting yourself legally. She's sitting in a very protected seat. You're not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 14:52:12 GMT -5
I worked for an incompetent boss for a while at Kaiser. It was well known that she was put in charge of a group of people, and she had no managerial skills or leanings in the least bit... She came in, stirred up a ton of crap, fired random people, had a couple babies and then went back to a tech job. I was one of her targets and the union saved my butt every time she tried to pull this type of "see if we can make her leave" type of crap. I guess I don't really understand the calls for lawyers, unless it is because it is a government job. Then again, in CA people can be fired for zero reason. Maybe not all areas are "at will" towards workers, don't know. Ultimately, she has more power and has already damaged this situation beyond repair, IMHO. You might be able to drag her down with you, but it sounds like you have hit that bottom place already. I would start calling in sick and looking for another job. Or take vacation and look for another job. Or complain to HR (or whoever is appropriate) that she has turned you into the maintenance man as some sort of punishment and you are fearing for your physical well being longer term. Maybe ask if it is considered a form of harassment. Would they make a woman in your position do the same physical labor
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 29, 2014 15:29:46 GMT -5
Good thought.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Jul 29, 2014 15:45:55 GMT -5
These are the possibilities as I see it. Either way, she's going to do some type of investigation.
1. She puts me on a PIP, possibly with some disciplinary action along with it. This is the most likely scenario, as I see it.
2. She gathers enough evidence to fire me immediately. It's unlikely though, unless I caused some major incident I'm not aware of.
3. She doesn't find any evidence of wrongdoing, and I go back as normal, also very unlikely.
4. She does something like demote me or I'm moved to another position.
The detail is currently set to last 60 days, so I imagine she'll make her move in September, when it ends.
It's kind of interesting though, I found out from talking with someone that a similar scenario played out with my predecessor in 2009. She wasn't there then, but the question was raised why this happens to people in my position, that there may be some flaw in how the radiation safety program is managed. Interesting. Can you find some proof or documentation of this incident? When you started talking about this current issue it was brought up that there was a problem before and in that case others may be quick to blame YOU, but maybe there is an issue with the way the program is managed? I'd look into that if you think it's a possibility.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 30, 2014 1:10:10 GMT -5
I'd start applying for a cushy hospital RSO position. Yes, though my experience is more managing radiation safety as it relates to scientific research than medical institutions. I'm not as familiar with how hospitals operate, but I could probably learn it easily enough. Dealing with MD's probably isn't much different than dealing with PH'D's.
Though, from what I've heard, hospitals are more likely to want someone with a doctorate in the RSO position.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 30, 2014 3:37:28 GMT -5
You realize that doctors think the MD stands for Major Deity, right?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jul 30, 2014 9:44:31 GMT -5
I'd start applying for a cushy hospital RSO position. Yes, though my experience is more managing radiation safety as it relates to scientific research than medical institutions. I'm not as familiar with how hospitals operate, but I could probably learn it easily enough. Dealing with MD's probably isn't much different than dealing with PH'D's.
Though, from what I've heard, hospitals are more likely to want someone with a doctorate in the RSO position.
Nah. Only big academic institutions are going to want a PhD and that would mainly be for a head RSO position. You could easily get into a smaller community practice or even a larger one without a PhD. If you wanted to stay in the research realm then you could definitely get an assistant RSO position at an academic hospital, no problem. And you really don't have to deal THAT much with physicians. There's lots of intermediate people that you have to deal with (like me) instead.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 4, 2014 19:18:24 GMT -5
So, the saga continues.
First, all in the span of TWO days I got THREE job interviews scheduled, all for Thursday and Friday of this week. While this is fantastic news, it's definitely stressful, and creates the problem of "how am I going to get out of work to do a job interview." I guess I'll take sick leave on Thursday and take Friday off.
One of the jobs I'm not crazy about, because it would require significant travel. Being on the road 50% of the time or more sure wouldn't do my social life any favors. The others are okay, and good opportunities.
On another note, for some reason, they're doing a background investigation on me. I guess my boss ordered it? I'm not sure. In any case, I had an interview with an investigator today. The background investigation is for a public trust clearance, presumably if I fail it, they would fire me for not being able to meet a background investigation. Though it's weird they're doing one now, after I've been employed in the job for three years.
Anyway, I decided to withhold my firing from the Air Force because it was overturned, but they found out about it and asked me pretty detailed questions on it. When asked about why I withheld it, I said I did that because it was legally overturned in a court of law, so basically it didn't happen. They also questioned me a lot about the recent troubles I've had with my supervisor, wanting to know my side of things. My boss had talked to her before me, and was in there for over an hour, apparently giving all the dirty details about all of my perceived wrongdoings. The good news, at least, is that the investigator said my boss isn't aware of the firing they found out about, and will not share that information with her.
I guess I'm worried about the following:
1. Will them finding out about the old termination that was overturned affect my the outcome of my investigation? What about the recent troubles with my supervisor? Presumably if I fail the investigation, they could fire me. 2. My boss certainly isn't bashful about telling others exactly what she thinks of me and the job I'm doing. That doesn't bode well for any potential employers that contact her. 3. If this background investigation could find out about my past firing that was overturned, won't future employers who do background investigations find out about it? Is this going to be a millstone I have to carry around my neck for the rest of my life? Even if I can get another job, who's to say they won't find out about it and fire me on the spot? What ever happened to second chances?
I wouldn't think that having a termination that was overturned would negatively affect my investigation, but I'm not very familiar with the process.
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Aug 4, 2014 19:25:12 GMT -5
Good luck on the interviews.
I have absolutely no experience working in the public sector but it does seem to me that this background investigation could backfire on the supervisor. They may report to HR that she is a complete nutcase.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Aug 4, 2014 19:26:43 GMT -5
Phoenix,
I think you handled the question appropriately.
Congratulations on the job interviews. Do you have a past boss who can vouch for you?
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