zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 12:58:54 GMT -5
Yes, but you seem to have a somewhat normal child. Some others seem to have had Damien.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 13:05:15 GMT -5
I hate feeling out of control. And I like things to 'make sense'.
And I'm an adult. And I'm pretty self aware.
Beinga a kid who has those predispositions, but lacks higher level thought processes and is constantly unable to make even basic decisions about their actions/environment can be very frustrating, even terrifying.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 13:05:56 GMT -5
I bet. Shudder.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 13:07:12 GMT -5
This is another place external, out loud talk can help too. I'd often say how I disliked this task, but liked the results, or didn't like what would happen if I didn't do it... Etc.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 3, 2014 13:07:46 GMT -5
Why? Do adults generally go around doing everything they are told? Do you expects adults personalities and desires and learned behaviors, etc somehow emerge/converge after their 18 th birthday? My inlaws do nothing that I ask of them, even if it's totally reasonable like using the front door when they visit rather than creeping around to the backdoor to sneak up on us. They are otherwise very nice people, so I don't get it. Sometimes I wonder if this is some sort of payback for their (5) kids not doing what they asked of them. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/confused.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 3, 2014 13:08:45 GMT -5
I don't have a Damien. I have a three year old. I know all YM posters had perfect toddlers but I'd consider mine normal. She's myself, my father and my brother rolled into one. I told DH I didn't think I'd see the day where I met my match. In general she's very well behaved we very rarely have to discipline her and she listens to us on the big things like safety. We butt heads on chores but she's three, I kinda expect her to not understand we have to do chores. She doesn't get mommy is going to kill herself one of these days skidding across the floor on Umi0car. So I try to find chores she wants to do and makes her feel useful. For whatever reason she likes to take Chlorox wipes and clean the doorknobs. Have at it kiddo. And I discovered she apparently thinks Windex is the greatest invention ever, so hey if that gets her to clean her toys go for it! DH didn't appreciate the entire house smelling like Windex though. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 13:08:46 GMT -5
Jesus, we never do that around my family, that's how someone would get shot!! That's just nuts.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 3, 2014 13:08:56 GMT -5
Yes, but you seem to have a somewhat normal child. Some others seem to have had Damien. This is true I guess. Reading everyone else's struggles makes me feel guilty that the Boy is so easy going. Like I should have to turn in half of my "mom" card or something.
FWIW- I really applaud those of you raising, idk the term- challenging? kids. I don't know that I'd have the patience for some of the kids you all are describing. I'm pretty sure I would be in way over my head with any kid other than DS. I even get frustrated with the nieces and nephews and think "why can't you be easy like your cousin!"
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 13:10:12 GMT -5
I had an easy first and a challenging second. Even at her worst she never acted like some of these posters kids. I need to thank her.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 3, 2014 13:14:30 GMT -5
Gwen's a lot like my brother. She's not as difficult as he was, but she's definetly not me as a child. I was on the other end of the extreme as my brother, very obedient and low key. She's not disobedient, she does listen to us 99% of the time but she isn't a blind follower either if she doesn't want to do it she wants to know why she has to. Which on one hand is good, I don't want her to be a blind follower. But at 3 she doesn't get that she can't have as much power/independence as she thinks she deserves. I'm learning if I give her the illusion of power she's a lot happier. She had no clue giving her the Windex was not only getting her to do her chores but allowed me to sit on my butt and read while watching her out of the corner of my eye. Win win. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 3, 2014 13:18:34 GMT -5
I had an easy first and a challenging second. Even at her worst she never acted like some of these posters kids. I need to thank her. Two of my uncles are much younger than my dad and we have kids in the same age range (one of my cousins is the same age as DS). They both would tell me "If I had the 2nd kid first he would be an only child! Stop while you are ahead!" I assume they were joking but that always scared me in the back of my mind I was always thinking about what they said.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 13:20:28 GMT -5
My mom told me the same thing. To not have another after DS. There were many days I wished I had listened to her. Not now though.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 3, 2014 13:26:46 GMT -5
2 of us were super easy, the eldest- not so easy. My older sister really put my parents through the ringer and back. She's 39, homeless and continuously arrested for begging on the street. It's a really sad story. So, I tend to think nature has more to do with it.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 3, 2014 13:44:53 GMT -5
Gwen's a lot like my brother. She's not as difficult as he was, but she's definetly not me as a child. I was on the other end of the extreme as my brother, very obedient and low key. She's not disobedient, she does listen to us 99% of the time but she isn't a blind follower either if she doesn't want to do it she wants to know why she has to. Which on one hand is good, I don't want her to be a blind follower. But at 3 she doesn't get that she can't have as much power/independence as she thinks she deserves. I'm learning if I give her the illusion of power she's a lot happier.
She had no clue giving her the Windex was not only getting her to do her chores but allowed me to sit on my butt and read while watching her out of the corner of my eye. Win win. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) I hate feeling like I have no control. Why would my 2yo be any different? So we have a lot of choices. If she wants brocolli instead of green beans, it's not like it matters to me. If she wants to wear a long-sleeve pajama top and shorts to school, then ok. Sometimes it takes longer, but I rarely have to deal with an insane screaming kid this way, so I think it evens out. We've also had a lot of success with the timer. It's been especially helpful at meal times - we set the timer, and she can do whatever she wants during that time (including leave the table, it's her choice), but when the timer goes off it's bathtime and everything left on your plate goes in the garbage (or a tupperware for next time.) No exceptions. I feel so much better about not nagging "Eat your dinner!" every 30 seconds... Which is not to say she gets everything she wants or that everything is a choice, because that's not true. And she does seem better able to deal with the "nos" when she has opportunity to exercise power elsewhere. Then again, I also have a pretty easy kid so far.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 3, 2014 13:59:25 GMT -5
Here's what is driving me nuts - we give DS an option for like supper and he'll make his choice. Then he'll get it and say I don't want that, I wanted the other and start crying. My stance is tough, you made your choice, now you have to live with it. We also talk about consequences - if you want to play outside after supper, you have to clean your room before supper. That seems to be working ... actually he seems to be doing much better if we have him clean his room before supper whether we talk about going outside or not, just because he isn't as tired. He goes to bed between 7:30 and 8 and when we were asking him to clean his room at 7, he would meltdown about 50% of the time. By asking him to clean between 5-5:30ish, then supper around 5:30/6ish. Then we can go play outside from 6:30 until 7/7:15ish. It seems to be a better schedule for him. But we still have lots of bad moments. I mean when he walks in with his hands covered in grease from helping DH change the brakes on the car, you have to wash your hands first thing. There isn't anyway to make that a choice. We've been giving him the choice of a bath or shower for about 2 years now, but now we have colors for the bath which also helps - hey what color do you want your bath. I still work to get him enough sleep because I know it makes a difference, but it is hard once he gets behind because he doesn't nap - and when he does nap it really has to be 3 hrs to do any good for his mood, which means he won't sleep at night, which just puts us in a worse position. I'm very nervous about letting him stay up for fireworks tomorrow night and our party on Saturday night. We'll see what happens. He's been in a good mood and pretty even keel all week. I hate for him to get sleep deprived and get back in the cycle, but at the same time you got to live some too. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 3, 2014 14:04:38 GMT -5
Yes, but you seem to have a somewhat normal child. Some others seem to have had Damien. So what would you do differently if you did have some of our kids? Beat them until they submit? Lock them in their room until they were quiet? You were a teacher for goodness sake and your attitude makes me terrified to put my kids in public school. I have 2 really good kids, but I do not expect perfection from them. One is super sensitive and emotional so when he gets hurt or has a melt down its pretty awful. It's my job to help him navigate those emotions, not teach him to repress them. Side note: I have friends who adopted 2 brothers whose birth mom was on meth with the 1st and Haldol with the 2nd (bio-mom was in prison for most of the 2nd pregnancy). The oldest boy especially has a lot of emotional/impulse issues and people say the most awful things to them and the kids when they have a melt down in public. You can't tell from looking at them that there is an issue, and you can't even tell that they are adopted since they look just like one of their moms. Its just heartbreaking to me that they are doing everything they can to help these kids grow up to be well adjusted members of society, and yet society can be so cruel to them because the boys cry when they don't get a toy. So anyway, I'd love to hear the Zib solution to all children. Regardless of nature or nurture, how do you force children to 100% behave as you want them to, but also learn the life skills they need to grow up to be independent?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 3, 2014 14:09:06 GMT -5
Here's what is driving me nuts - we give DS an option for like supper and he'll make his choice. Then he'll get it and say I don't want that, I wanted the other and start crying. My stance is tough, you made your choice, now you have to live with it. We also talk about consequences - if you want to play outside after supper, you have to clean your room before supper. That seems to be working ... actually he seems to be doing much better if we have him clean his room before supper whether we talk about going outside or not, just because he isn't as tired. He goes to bed between 7:30 and 8 and when we were asking him to clean his room at 7, he would meltdown about 50% of the time. By asking him to clean between 5-5:30ish, then supper around 5:30/6ish. Then we can go play outside from 6:30 until 7/7:15ish. It seems to be a better schedule for him. But we still have lots of bad moments. I mean when he walks in with his hands covered in grease from helping DH change the brakes on the car, you have to wash your hands first thing. There isn't anyway to make that a choice. We've been giving him the choice of a bath or shower for about 2 years now, but now we have colors for the bath which also helps - hey what color do you want your bath. I still work to get him enough sleep because I know it makes a difference, but it is hard once he gets behind because he doesn't nap - and when he does nap it really has to be 3 hrs to do any good for his mood, which means he won't sleep at night, which just puts us in a worse position. I'm very nervous about letting him stay up for fireworks tomorrow night and our party on Saturday night. We'll see what happens. He's been in a good mood and pretty even keel all week. I hate for him to get sleep deprived and get back in the cycle, but at the same time you got to live some too. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Totally! Have you tried stuff like giving him a choice of where he washes his hands (kitchen vs. bathroom) or which soap or whether he wants you to hold him or stand on a stool? That type of stuff is helping us cut down on the random protest screaming quite a bit. For the record, we also do the whole "You chose your choice, now you live with it" thing for the most part. But just like everyone else, sometimes you're allowed to change your mind if it's not anything big. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 3, 2014 14:09:55 GMT -5
Here's what is driving me nuts - we give DS an option for like supper and he'll make his choice. Then he'll get it and say I don't want that, I wanted the other and start crying. My stance is tough, you made your choice, now you have to live with it. We also talk about consequences - if you want to play outside after supper, you have to clean your room before supper. That seems to be working ... actually he seems to be doing much better if we have him clean his room before supper whether we talk about going outside or not, just because he isn't as tired. He goes to bed between 7:30 and 8 and when we were asking him to clean his room at 7, he would meltdown about 50% of the time. By asking him to clean between 5-5:30ish, then supper around 5:30/6ish. Then we can go play outside from 6:30 until 7/7:15ish. It seems to be a better schedule for him. But we still have lots of bad moments. I mean when he walks in with his hands covered in grease from helping DH change the brakes on the car, you have to wash your hands first thing. There isn't anyway to make that a choice. We've been giving him the choice of a bath or shower for about 2 years now, but now we have colors for the bath which also helps - hey what color do you want your bath. I still work to get him enough sleep because I know it makes a difference, but it is hard once he gets behind because he doesn't nap - and when he does nap it really has to be 3 hrs to do any good for his mood, which means he won't sleep at night, which just puts us in a worse position. I'm very nervous about letting him stay up for fireworks tomorrow night and our party on Saturday night. We'll see what happens. He's been in a good mood and pretty even keel all week. I hate for him to get sleep deprived and get back in the cycle, but at the same time you got to live some too. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) My DH and I both ask our kids to pick up. DH asks them to pick up at about 3 or 4 in the afternoon. They are tired. My 6 yo is awake by 5:30 every morning. They are hungry. And, while sometimes DH will pick up, sometimes he'll use that time to retreat so he gets a little break. And sometimes, he assures them it won't take more than 10 minutes, and they are still at it a half hour later. I ask the kids to pick up about a half hour after breakfast. I set a timer sometimes, and I pick up with them. If I don't do the timer, I give them a definite idea of how long it will take. Sometimes it will just be "find 8 things and put them away." DH gets whining and complaining. I get two angels. I've told DH repeatedly that it's all in the timing. He thinks it's because I'm the heavy in the family.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Jul 3, 2014 14:12:03 GMT -5
I'm behind on this thread and need to catch up, but as far as the repeating over and over to your kids, try turning it back on them. This probably only works when they're a little older, but here's an example. (Keep in mind this was several years ago, DS2 was in middle school and his life revolved around video games that had to be rented.)
DS: Hey Mom, can you drive me to Blockbuster? Me: Hmm, hmm. In a bit. Later, DS: Are we going or what? Me: Where? DS: Blockbuster! I already said that! Me: Oh, yeah. Soon. Later, DS: Seriously, can you take me or not?? Me: Frustrating, isn't it?
Point taken farily quickly at that age. But, younger, I agree with say it ONCE and follow through with consequences. Also, STATE what you want them to do, don't ASK. Bargaining or debating with kids rarely works.
But it's all about balance, too. Pick your battles. Yes, give them control over things they can have control of. Helps them to mature and become independent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 14:13:20 GMT -5
Muttly, when son was little there were lots of times it just wasn't worth overstimulating him (I'm guessing like breaking your routine) sucks to miss stuff, but it general is relatively short lived.
He doesn't want to wash the grease off ? Why not? Could he wash off outside? What would happen if his choice was to stay outside or come in and with clean hands?
Sounds like you are coming up with some workable solutions! The moving time thing is good.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 14:13:24 GMT -5
I taught special needs students. Yes, they are different and you have to have different expectations around them. But I had very different expectations for what few gen Ed students I had and my own kids. Even DD, my challenging one, didnt cause huge issues until the divorce. Had her father totally left the picture instead of just coming around enough to cause more issues, I could have handled her problem years better. My hat is off to those with challenging children. Do you get any help from their fathers?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 14:15:15 GMT -5
Yes, but you seem to have a somewhat normal child. Some others seem to have had Damien. So what would you do differently if you did have some of our kids? Beat them until they submit? Lock them in their room until they were quiet? You were a teacher for goodness sake and your attitude makes me terrified to put my kids in public school. I have 2 really good kids, but I do not expect perfection from them. One is super sensitive and emotional so when he gets hurt or has a melt down its pretty awful. It's my job to help him navigate those emotions, not teach him to repress them. Side note: I have friends who adopted 2 brothers whose birth mom was on meth with the 1st and Haldol with the 2nd (bio-mom was in prison for most of the 2nd pregnancy). The oldest boy especially has a lot of emotional/impulse issues and people say the most awful things to them and the kids when they have a melt down in public. You can't tell from looking at them that there is an issue, and you can't even tell that they are adopted since they look just like one of their moms. Its just heartbreaking to me that they are doing everything they can to help these kids grow up to be well adjusted members of society, and yet society can be so cruel to them because the boys cry when they don't get a toy. So anyway, I'd love to hear the Zib solution to all children. Regardless of nature or nurture, how do you force children to 100% behave as you want them to, but also learn the life skills they need to grow up to be independent? They both love to point out to me they don't know how to do laundry because I'd never let them. I am super picky about my laundry, true. I for sure failed there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 14:19:46 GMT -5
When I say give 2-3 warnings.
Usually #1 would be just me saying it, no further explanation or options. Ie. I need you to clean up this mess you made before grandma gets here at 3.
because that is the goal. To say it and have it happen.
When that gets ignored its eye to eye, I don't want grandma to think we don't respect our things, she might not want to give you birthday toys any more if she sees this mess, so I need you to pick this up within 30 minutes, if not, and if have to pick them up, they are going in my closet with my things for a week. Understand. What do you need to do? Why? When?
In that case, I might give another 15 minute, remember what we talked about. Or not. Depends.
Just an example. Not the best. Not creative today.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 3, 2014 14:26:53 GMT -5
I mean when he walks in with his hands covered in grease from helping DH change the brakes on the car, you have to wash your hands first thing
My dad uses Fast Orange and the hose when he works on cars. Maybe try that? I used to think it was so grown up to be able to use his Fast Orange. That stuff WORKS.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 14:29:49 GMT -5
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 3, 2014 14:30:50 GMT -5
They both love to point out to me they don't know how to do laundry because I'd never let them. I am super picky about my laundry, true. I for sure failed there. Ridiculous. I never had to do a single load of laundry before I was 18. As an adult, I learned everything there was about textiles and laundry detergents- this is not due to anal tendency it is so I could get away with doing the minimal amount of effort to get clothes clean. I never let laundry pile up, clean clothes get folded/hung immediately (again, not due to anal tendencies but because it's an easier/faster task when manageable and when pulled out of the dryer immediately, nothing wrinkles and I refuse to iron) and not one cloth diaper is stained after 2 years of continuous use. I hate when people blame their parents for their own lack of self motivation.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2014 14:32:55 GMT -5
They both love to point out to me they don't know how to do laundry because I'd never let them. I am super picky about my laundry, true. I for sure failed there. Ridiculous. I never had to do a single load of laundry before I was 18. As an adult, I learned everything there was about textiles and laundry detergents- this is not due to anal tendency it is so I could get away with doing the minimal amount of effort to get clothes clean. I never let laundry pile up, clean clothes get folded/hung immediately (again, not due to anal tendencies but because it's an easier/faster task when manageable and when pulled out of the dryer immediately, nothing wrinkles and I refuse to iron) and not one cloth diaper is stained after 2 years of continuous use. I hate when people blame their parents for their own lack of self motivation. Sorry, they rag on me about it. It's a family joke now. My fault for not being clearer
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 3, 2014 14:41:35 GMT -5
Is he a visual, builder type kid? DS used to meltdown when I asked him to clean his room. He's finally verbal enough to say that he's building stuff even if it looks like a mess to me and he's bummed that he has to tear it down all the time. So we put in a display shelf for him to put his treasures on and now he only has to clean his room once a week, same day every week but thoroughly, so it can be vacuumed. If he wants some big multi-foot thing going on then it has to be done in his room because anything in the living room is cleaned up that night.
This was DS when he was little. He could spend hours building these elaborate Thomas the Tank Engine tracks or huge Imaginext towers (before they ruined that toy line). We are talking multi-day projects that would keep him entertained for hours acting out stories with the characters. Once we convinced him to build them either in his bedroom or his playroom it was fine. He'd get so mad at us if he built in the living room and we picked it all up when he went to bed. Once we got on the same page it was much nicer and easier on all of us.
To us it was toys and mess but to him it was this elaborate creation that he had spent hours designing and building.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 3, 2014 14:48:24 GMT -5
Muttly, when son was little there were lots of times it just wasn't worth overstimulating him (I'm guessing like breaking your routine) sucks to miss stuff, but it general is relatively short lived. He doesn't want to wash the grease off ? Why not? Could he wash off outside? What would happen if his choice was to stay outside or come in and with clean hands? Sounds like you are coming up with some workable solutions! The moving time thing is good. That has been my stance for 4 years and we basically didn't do anything. Last summer, I said forget it, 2014 is the year we start to actually do stuff with the kids instead of waiting for our lives to begin again. So we went on vacation even though it scared the crap out of us. We're going to take the kids to fireworks even though it will be past their bed time. We've spent the last 4.5 years with at least one of us at home with the kids basically every night by 7pm because we don't want to mess with their sleep. I think at least DS can handle it once in a while. The hands thing - DS was outside helping DH. I was in the middle of unpacking groceries. He came in without DH. I was trying to unpack groceries and get lunch for him, DD, and myself and he just started crying about it. I'm not able to negotiate everything when it presents itself. Telling him to go back outside or wash his hands at that point would have been met with the same tears and it would have been counter productive since he needed to eat lunch. He just surprised me coming back inside when he did. I was expecting to have 5-10 more minutes to try to get things straightened up and suddenly he is inside with his shoes off and about to rub his greasy hands everywhere and I asked him to go wash his hands he refused.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 3, 2014 14:57:43 GMT -5
He is allowed to put whatever fits in his closet and as long as we can shut the door it is fine. He is allowed to put whatever he wants on his shelves. I get that he is building stuff and some of the smaller things we can leave out, but his room is far too small to leave it covered with toys every night. That is the 1 rule in our house, that everything gets picked up at the end of the day. We start as soon as they can crawl, we take them around with us and tell them to say goodnight to their toys. But we keep the house picked up. It is fairly small - 1600 sf. Only one living space that is not large and their bedrooms are small. If the house isn't picked up every night, it makes the house feel smaller. It is worth it to us to have the clean house and to try to install the habit of picking up every night.
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