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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 15:21:22 GMT -5
Mutt, I hope you aren't feeling like you have to justify! I know I am not, and dont think anyone is suggesting you are doing it wrong! Just trying to be sounding boards and throw out ideas. Some might sound good to your family, others won't Regardless, you are doing great! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 3, 2014 16:20:40 GMT -5
I love giving ds choices. Regardless of how many I offer he can always come up with another one he wants instead. And often times its better than what I had suggested so we go with his plan.
Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 3, 2014 21:07:16 GMT -5
Yes, but you seem to have a somewhat normal child. Some others seem to have had Damien. So what would you do differently if you did have some of our kids? Beat them until they submit? Lock them in their room until they were quiet? A, sparingly. B, as needed. If that didn't work, seppuku.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 4, 2014 9:01:38 GMT -5
So what would you do differently if you did have some of our kids? Beat them until they submit? Lock them in their room until they were quiet? A, sparingly. B, as needed. If that didn't work, seppuku. If your wife had given birth to my oldest son instead of your daughters, you'd have been standing in a pile of your own bloody entrails before he reached his first birthday. Or, if you'd somehow gutted it through the "baby" time, you sure as heck wouldn't have made it until he was 2. RIP, Dark. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 4, 2014 11:37:59 GMT -5
Babies don't count. You can't reason with them and they're supposed to cry.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 11:41:38 GMT -5
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 4, 2014 12:02:55 GMT -5
Wow, your friend Amanda sounds like a Drama Queen. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/faint.gif)
Years ago, DH and I read an article on how parents who believe their child is "The Most Holy Vessel of Self-Esteem" are raising children who have no hope of integrating into society in the future. We still sometimes joke about certain parents and children we encounter, that they're "Holy Vessels". Amanda's parenting appears to be a good example of this concept. No doubt her baby was difficult and it's really tough to raise a tough kid, but yikes... the concept that somehow the tough kid characteristics are proof of peerless genius that must be catered to 24/7 and around whom life must be structured is frighteningly self-deluded. There has to be a way to find some middle ground of getting her son the intellectual stimulation and emotional support he needs without creating a fantasy world around him.
Her son is smart and her son is active and her son may even have special developmental needs. Hopefully she can find a way to honor and support those things and also help him develop the tools he will need to associate with other people, support himself and also have social ties in the community.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 12:18:05 GMT -5
Lol. Ok.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 4, 2014 12:35:40 GMT -5
Sounding out the words in Wordsworth doesn't mean he's actually reading Wordsworth in the sense that he understands the message the author was trying to convey. Especially at 3. Although preschool is a joke. I'd say most of the kids in my daughters preschool classes already knew how to count to 10-20, recite the alphabet, and write their names when they started. Roughly a quarter were already sounding out words and whatnot. If anything it seemed like a program designed to get the kids who are way behind somewhat caught up before real school starts.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2014 12:48:21 GMT -5
Talented writer. I particularly enjoyed the pacing that the style set. Do agree that the content was well ... interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 12:51:21 GMT -5
Well, I think its applicable because it shows 1) sometimes it starts very early, ie. Babies aren't all the same. 2) it shows how you can help validate a child's world and give them some control and respect and how doing so can be good for everyone 3) it's not easy. Sometimes everyone ends up in tears or tracing lines on the wall... You get through it.
There are lots of examples from history of extraordinary individuals who today would have been medicated so the can 'mind' and 'FIt in' ... I'm not saying all people are going to rock the world, but I often read of important people who did/made important things who were 'different', but had wonderful familial support and wonder how many we lost to a lack of it... How many we are losing.
Just FYI, the kid seems to do ok with 'the community' ... Not just at play, but you know, when he has an art show, participates in a study of gifted young artists, is interviewed by newspapers and magazines... Or at least most of the stuff I've read since he started being interviewed at about 6... Who knows though. He's only 9...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2014 13:01:14 GMT -5
... Sounding out the words in Wordsworth doesn't mean he's actually reading Wordsworth in the sense that he understands the message the author was trying to convey. ... Had a middle school student once who could, when tested, decode text at a college senior level. When asked what she had just read, she had a blank look on her face. She didn't have a clue. But every word was verbalized completely accurately. And sharing one more just for fun: Had another high school kid who sat and wrote a page and a half essay during school wide testing. Finished shortly after most of the other kids had stopped writing. There were sets of three, four, and five letters. Most had a vowel or two towards the middle of them. A lot ended with an "e". Every six, seven, eight letter set had a period at the end of them with a little more space before the next set started. It certainly looked "right". It was an incredible coping skill he had developed.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 4, 2014 15:03:05 GMT -5
Well, I think its applicable because it shows 1) sometimes it starts very early, ie. Babies aren't all the same. 2) it shows how you can help validate a child's world and give them some control and respect and how doing so can be good for everyone 3) it's not easy. Sometimes everyone ends up in tears or tracing lines on the wall... You get through it. Yes, true. And I'm glad to hear he interacts well with other people.
My reaction was to the overall tone and premise of the article. It's titled "How Does an Island Feel? Raising Gifted Children in a World that Turns Its Back", but doesn't really list persuasive evidence that the world did turn its back. There appears to be a landlord who no longer offers them a rental (even though he tells them this is because his elderly mother is moving in the author suspects it's because her baby is too noisy) and the fact that no preschool or school is has sufficient ability to serve her son's genius, but those two examples are hardly persuasive evidence that a world has turned its back on her or her child. Instead of describing how the world has somehow wronged them, it sounds more like an article designed to showcase just how very blessed the world should consider itself that it is being graced with the presence of her child and how very pure, wonderful and self-sacrificing her love is. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
Honestly, her tone is so melodramatic in describing the Wonder that Is Her Genius Seed, that it might not be unreasonable to guess that some of the people she thinks have turned their back on her are only trying to escape her outsized sense of self-importance and the demands she places on them to accommodate her and her child.
It's really hard to raise a smart, active kid. It's even harder to raise one that has special needs. You mention all the examples of people who have changed the world because they weren't medicated so they'd "fit in." There are also thousands and thousands of examples of kids on the other end of the special needs spectrum who didn't receive the support, guidance and possibly even medication they needed to be able to interact appropriately and are now underemployed, having difficulty with normal relationships, have poor self esteem or are even in prison. As a parent, you can only keep them in the parental cocoon of protection for so long and then they need to somehow find a way in the outside world. Some kids need more help with that than others. For some kids the help is in the form of therapy, guidance or even medication. Jumping to medicate a child into submission is just as irresponsible as removing yourself and the child from mainstream social interactions and playing martyr. IMHO, most kids will benefit most from the middle ground of finding ways to prepare them for life and interaction with society in a way that doesn't compromise who they are. Tough line to walk.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 15:25:22 GMT -5
I think she was tapping into the isolation many mothers feel, parenting gifted children or not, because we often feel alone, questioning what we do, finding parenting harder than we thought, less 'natural' than we thought.. Trying our best to find what works, even if it doesn't necessarily look like what the textbooks say, like what other mothers say...
It's an isolation perpetuated by the mommy wars.
Even your first instinct was to attack.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 4, 2014 15:47:44 GMT -5
I think she was tapping into the isolation many mothers feel, parenting gifted children or not, because we often feel alone, questioning what we do, finding parenting harder than we thought, less 'natural' than we thought.. Trying our best to find what works, even if it doesn't necessarily look like what the textbooks say, like what other mothers say... It's an isolation perpetuated by the mommy wars. Even your first instinct was to attack. I understand really well the isolation and that people are very judgmental when you have to do things that work for your family but are not mainstream. Maybe with a different title to the article or some better descriptions of why she was feeling isolated or that she had reached out to others and missed the connection I would have understood that to be her point and would have felt very empathetic.
It may be a popular phrase, but I think the term "mommy wars" is as insulting as describing disagreements among female professionals as "cat fights". If I don't agree with a particular approach or person or action, that should be an acceptable position to examine and debate, not relegated to the condescending category of brainless women hissy fighting.
My read on the article was that it wasn't convincing and instead of making me feel empathy for a person who was feeling isolated, made me question the author's grip on reality and how she and her child relate to other people. It was self-serving and didn't indicate in any way that she wanted less isolation, but instead implies she is seeking validation and some sort of public recognition or accommodation. You know her in person, so may have an entirely different impression, but all we know is what is written.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jul 5, 2014 11:59:26 GMT -5
Well she did make mention of her sister-in-law and a friend criticizing her for reading Dickens to an infant but other than that I didn't catch how anyone else had wronged her. I had a very, very difficult infant too (though apparently with mine it wasn't caused by extreme genius ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) ) so I get those feelings of isolation and feeling like others wonder why you can't control your baby or why you're so rigid and insistent on a schedule. Mine has some "odd" interests too, don't we all? However I feel an important part of my guidance while he's growing up is showing him how to integrate into our society. Sure I still want him to have his own opinions and interests but I want him to be able to play nice with others, even if it's something that isn't very exciting to him personally. I want him to help a kid struggling with something, and experience someone more advanced than he is help him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 12:12:06 GMT -5
It's very interesting really. Lol. The assumptions people make and the fact that their first instinct is always to condemn. Point out how the other person is doing it wrong. Blame. The very isolating behavior under discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 12:23:11 GMT -5
It does explain why the socialization myth of homeschooling still exists... Obviously child centered households can't turn out kids who can associate with people, have ties in the community, play nice with others, help struggling kids, etc. .. And if anything is a struggle, stfu because people will just point out how its your own fault and you are doing it wrong. Seriously, this cycle will never end. It's just so sad that we can't support and learn from one another. It's a constant dig and defend cycle. Disappointing.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jul 5, 2014 12:43:02 GMT -5
I don't think it has to do with homeschooling or being SAHM. At such a young age, I think it's important for kids to feel part of a group instead of isolated, whether from a learning disability or super ability or whatever. JMO though.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 5, 2014 12:47:54 GMT -5
It's very interesting really. Lol. The assumptions people make and the fact that their first instinct is always to condemn. Point out how the other person is doing it wrong. Blame. The very isolating behavior under discussion. I don't think she's doing anything wrong, but she does sound like a PITA.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 12:54:22 GMT -5
I don't think it has to do with homeschooling or being SAHM. At such a young age, I think it's important for kids to feel part of a group instead of isolated, whether from a learning disability or super ability or whatever. JMO though. I think like with so much it depends on the kid and changes sometimes as they develop. My kids were in care early because I still worked. It was neutral at best, but probably more harm for my son, my daughter neutral to good...they are very different kids. On the other hand now he is probably more daily social than she is... He's learned to engage and enjoy it 'on his terms' if that makes sense. There is an assumption both social and academic that if a kid doesn't do the end behavior/task now, he won't be able to do it later, when in fact, a lot of the time it's a totally different task/behavior now, that prepares one for the end task/behavior later.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 5, 2014 13:01:37 GMT -5
It's possible I misread, but my reactions weren't due to what you're reacting to.
1) My comments about socialization weren't about homeschooling as much as preschool. It probably varies in different areas, but in the two states we've lived in, preschool - for children of at least normal intelligence born to caring, educated parents - wasn't really about counting, letters or school prep as much as it was for socialization. Almost all the kids we regularly interacted with knew the "school" type stuff before preschool and the real benefit of the preschool environment was to allow some social interaction, expose the kids to new people and systems, etc. That's also why most of the families who have a SAHP don't put their kids in preschool more than 2-3 half days a week, because the little guy isn't there to learn the alphabet, he's there to interact with more kids in group settings, etc. That's why I rolled my eyes a bit at the idea that her child was too gifted for preschool - most of the kids at preschools around here are too "advanced" for preschool if you look at it like that. The author's POV about preschool appeared to me to be that her child was simply too intelligent to learn anything, where I think that even intelligent children sometimes have a lot to learn about interacting with others and a few half days a week a preschool are often a reasonable place to start that.
2) I'm not "condemning" her for homeschooling, I'm reacting with distaste that so many of her actions seem to be taken with the view that her child is just too intelligent to fit in with others, so she has to be "an island" to support his genius. That seems a very dramatic approach to the situation. Maybe that's the best choice, but the article doesn't do a good job of explaining why that's her only choice any more than it explains why she feels the world turned its back on her. Instead, because she made the bold statement (she's been deserted) and didn't back it up, that feeds the perception that she's more of a martyr type rather than making rational choices. Who knows, she may be very rational and making the absolute best choices but because she didn't really explain that well in her article created the impression of something that isn't so?
3) I never minimize how much it sucks to have a tough kid, so I never implied she needs to STFU. That's you reading into it just like you read into my reaction as being a comment on homeschooling. There are some things that are contradictory, though, and make the author's position tough to understand. If it's so incredibly hard, why keep having more kids, for example? If she feels alone and isolated (very possible), what is she doing to try to make some connections instead of traveling around all the time - wouldn't it be easier to make connections if you stayed in one place to interact with and build some community? If she's unfamiliar with Dostoyevsky/classics - she talks about stumbling over them - yet this is what her son needs and prefers, why does it make sense for her to home school and travel constantly (making it harder to find and connect with experts) rather than find either a school setting, a expert who can tutor or some other way for him to get some advanced instruction from someone who actually is knowledgeable?
There was a lot that I just didn't get. And probably the very flowery descriptions of things were offputting. And frankly, that's a reasonable and understandable reaction - not an automatic attack - one that is due to the actual contents of the article. Which she wrote. It didn't sound like a request for help or a comment about feeling isolated as much as it did one of those really over the top Christmas letters describing how perfect her life is.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 5, 2014 13:06:25 GMT -5
Milee said it muxh better than I did.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 5, 2014 13:07:15 GMT -5
There is an assumption both social and academic that if a kid doesn't do the end behavior/task now, he won't be able to do it later, when in fact, a lot of the time it's a totally different task/behavior now, that prepares one for the end task/behavior later. I'm not assuming that, you're assuming that I am. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
I'm just wondering why, if the author struggled with knowing how to best soothe or occupy her son, she'd automatically assume her being with him 24/7 was the best choice. I'd think it would make sense to try different things - even preschool - or other methods to see if there was something else he needed that hadn't occurred to her. She might have discovered that preschool or group art or tumbling class or some other random thing turned out to be fascinating/exciting/changing for him. Instead it sounds like she withdrew from everybody, started traveling (which is isolating because it's tough to build community or groups) and isolated him with those actions. Maybe those choices were a result of other things she doesn't describe? We only know what she wrote.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 5, 2014 13:08:33 GMT -5
Some of her illustrations of "genius" are a little weird. My DD did and does the same nonsense syllable thing, and I used to calm her down by reading the paper to her. I don't have any reason to believe its because of her "genius". It's just her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 13:10:36 GMT -5
I guess I misread the what a drama queen as an attack? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) Perfect, really? Wow. Ahain, we can't look at someone and say they look vulnerable, alone... They are just bitching and backhanded complimenting themselves and being a martyr... As far as preschool and social interaction. It's great for some kids, neutral for some, too much of others. I think it has to be on a by kid basis.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 13:12:36 GMT -5
So the biggest issue that, in addition to challenging, she thinks her kids are smart...? If they were challenging and stupid, it would be ok?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 13:20:11 GMT -5
This is how babies are, I told myself.
That the situation just wasn’t working out. That it wasn’t what he had planned on. And then I would say that I hadn’t planned on it either, that I was drowning. But I didn’t.
Bad mother remained fixated on how she would be moving her sad body before the dawn chorus, before she felt ready. A whole day’s journey. Weeks. Years. Sometimes different but mostly the same, that journey. I never came to it ready.
I’d put the kettle on and stand in the kitchen running my fingers back and forth along the smooth countertop. Back and forth. Like little cars.
I navigated our days with non-existent outside help (because he was “such a busy child, my word”).
I was exhausted.
... Yes, what a self aggrandizing bitch
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 5, 2014 13:25:18 GMT -5
So the biggest issue that, in addition to challenging, she thinks her kids are smart...? If they were challenging and stupid, it would be ok? Would what be OK?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 13:38:31 GMT -5
Her behavior would be fine as long as she didn't assume her kids were gifted? One could be sympathetic to the challenges so long as she didn't presume to have gifted children?
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