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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 10:46:41 GMT -5
"maybe she could have just said to Phoenix - 'if you are going to be away from your desk for more than 30 minutes, please let me know' instead of 'sign in/out on this whiteboard'. email could have worked...a post-it note on his monitor or cube....rather than the my way or the highway thing."
Yes she could have. But i don't think she said or acted like my way or the highway because phoenix never gave her the indication that he had an issue with it. Who knows, she may have been ok with the no signing in/out but this is not the only thing he dismissed because he thought it was silly. She even told him she was writing him up for the "trend".
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 19, 2014 11:15:06 GMT -5
maybe she could have just said to Phoenix - 'if you are going to be away from your desk for more than 30 minutes, please let me know' instead of 'sign in/out on this whiteboard'. email could have worked...a post-it note on his monitor or cube....rather than the my way or the highway thing. But Phoenix did not give her that option, did he? He just decided that the whiteboard was stupid and wasn't going to do it. His action was very passive aggressive towards her. He didn't want to do it, so just ignored her requests. He could have just as easily said "How about I give you access to my Outlook Calendar so you can see my schedule instead?".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 19, 2014 17:03:00 GMT -5
maybe she could have just said to Phoenix - 'if you are going to be away from your desk for more than 30 minutes, please let me know' instead of 'sign in/out on this whiteboard'. email could have worked...a post-it note on his monitor or cube....rather than the my way or the highway thing. But Phoenix did not give her that option, did he? He just decided that the whiteboard was stupid and wasn't going to do it. His action was very passive aggressive towards her. He didn't want to do it, so just ignored her requests. He could have just as easily said "How about I give you access to my Outlook Calendar so you can see my schedule instead?". The issue was Pheonix not marking up 10-15 minute excursions on the whiteboard because he (reasonably) believed that level of detail was excessive and burdensome. In the OP he states She has told me before to use the whiteboard, and I have, but not within the 10-15 minute time frame. I'll frequently go to lunch, go to my lab, go to the radioactive waste storage building, or go to the records, which are located a ways from my office. These are routine parts of my performing my job. I didn't expect that I had to sign out every single time, even if I was gone for a few minutes to check the records. Hence he wasn't ignoring her request, unless she clearly indicated at some point that he should chart his whereabouts down to the minute. Barring those instructions, it's not reasonable to infer she wanted that level of detail. That kind of reporting is burdensome, invasive, and counterproductive. Of course it could also be that "10-15 minutes" was in actuality "30-60 minutes", and we're getting an only-slightly-embellished version of the truth.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 17:19:03 GMT -5
"Hence he wasn't ignoring her request"
He did say that he was ignoring her requests because they were silly. So it is very likely that this was one of those silly requests that he thought he could ignore.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 19, 2014 17:41:26 GMT -5
"Hence he wasn't ignoring her request" He did say that he was ignoring her requests because they were silly. So it is very likely that this was one of those silly requests that he thought he could ignore. He stated "She's dramatically increased the amount of administrative work I do. A lot of it isn'tt [sic] that hard, but since I find them silly or stupid I sometimes do them late or am dismissive when talking about them." It may or may not be a reasonable response depending on how much administrative detritus he's putting up with, how late he's being, and what he means by "dismissive". I've fortunately never had a micromanaging employer, but I've seen their power to decimate productivity. It usually happens in situations where a business has developed too many management levels and managers become more preoccupied with justifying their existence than with actually facilitating their workers' jobs.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 19, 2014 17:54:54 GMT -5
So how about we get one point clear with you. If your boss asks you to do something and gives you a deadline, that IS your highest priority. Within the first two weeks you have ignored her requests because you thought they were dumb or had artificial timelines. Not a good impression to start off with. Clearly you have struck a nerve with the new boss. I would guess that she has had people with similar actions or personality that have resulted in termination before. I will wish you luck, but you need to take the boss' requests very seriously, especially now that she has told you that you will get a write up. So if my boss asks me to do something and gives a deadline, it becomes my highest priority, even if I have to deal with a NRC violation and I'm required to do things by federal law within a certain timeframe?
Look, I don't mean to get defensive or inflate my own importance. I realize at the end of the day I'm a worker bee who follows directions. But sometimes the admin tasks she assigns can conflict with something that's also really important, something that I absolutely have to do by law or policy. I don't think having the agency getting fined by federal regulators would look too good for me either, and there's only so many hours in a day.
Doing stuff that I think is stupid and I don't agree with has always been a challenge. I have tried to not let it show, but I'm sure it has at times. I'll continue to work at it, but I don't think that excuses her behavior.
It's certainly quite challenging to go from a relaxed environment to a extremely rigid one.
No. Again, IF THERE IS A CONFLICT OF DEADLINES and you have something like that coming up, you TALK TO YOUR BOSS about it. Try it. And, yes, you are getting defensive and inflating your own importance. You don't have enough importance to arbitrarily and unilaterally decide to ignore your boss. You just don't. If you were that important, YOU would be the boss. You have an obligation to bring the potential conflict/fine/regulation to her attention. She is the boss. You are subordinate to her. Her requests may be stupid or silly or they may not be , but unless you can show clear harm to your employer because of them, you are obligated to do as she asks. Or get a different job. You don't get to just do whatever the heck you want. Document that you discussed any deadline conflict with her. . If and only if you are not able to successfully resolve the deadline conflict, then you may need to move up the ladder if the potential harm to the agency is sufficient. I am betting you will not have to do that. Most bosses are reasonable enough to not want "the wrath of the Feds" to fall upon them. She will appreciate your bringing it to her attention, I am willing to bet. Your environment with the new boss doesn't sound very rigid to most of us, but if you had a lot of independence and little direct supervision before, it probably does seem like that to you. Just try to go with the flow and talk to the boss. Communicate. Give it some time. New management is always tough to get used to for the first few months or so. I really do hope you can resolve this to both your satisfaction.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 18:59:46 GMT -5
I think she was being confrontational by suggesting he was insubordinate and threatening Formal reprimand. Precisely.
I wouldn't have had a problem if she had called me into the conference room, noted my misdeeds, and said how she wanted me to change, and left it at that.
There were no verbal warnings prior to engaging in official disciplinary action, and as WWBG said, insubordination is a serious charge that you don't just throw around.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 19:04:11 GMT -5
I have recognized for some time the real opportunities are with the Department of Energy, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, or the Navy.
Just my sense of things, but maybe it might be beneficial to skip the Navy? It sounds kind of like your work style doesn't mesh well with strict hierarchies/military personalities, based on what you've posted about your previous job and on this thread. DH is moving out of an office into a cube at his boss' request, and we'll be moving to another state soon. His boss wants to have everyone at a certain level in one building. DH is getting a promotion and substantial raise, but he is giving up a private office with windows in a branch office for a cube at corporate, because tactically his boss wants everyone vital to his department close at hand. Some bosses like being able to see and easily talk to people working under them, even if they're sent overseas alone for months at a time. Our experience in strict hierarchies is that everyone is independent adults as long as the rules are quickly complied with, even if they're cumbersome. Putting things off or not doing things is generally a good way to raise ire, unless a reason is spoken and then approved of. Smaller stuff seems like the testing ground, to sound out compliance. If someone can't follow tiny annoying things, it's harder to trust with bigger things. Just a few thoughts from our experiences, as always, take with a dose of salt. Yes, actually, the Navy would be my least preferable choice of career. I worked for the Navy when I first started. It was okay, a hell of a lot better than the Air Force, but not my favorite.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 19:15:32 GMT -5
IMHO, we're not doing Phoenix any favors by offering inflammatory recommendations or interpretations on the situation. Maybe she is a hardass who is making silly demands or maybe she's not. It's possible in the discussions with the outgoing supervisor, the outgoing supervisor mentioned that Phoenix is a good worker, but appears to have difficulty keeping a schedule or following rules, so she started out keeping an eye on this. When she tried to make some changes so she could keep an eye on the situation (asking the desk be moved and Phoenix write his location on the white board), Phoenix inadvertently reinforced the concerns by not communicating what he was working on and talking to her about moving the deadline and/or modifying the white board system.
Talking about how Phoenix should manage this "war" or stirring him up may be fun and make you feel like a Big Enchilada, but there's a real possibility that this could hurt Phoenix in his job. It's not often that an employee is able to beat a supervisor in such a head on battle and that's what he'd be getting into if he takes a confrontational stand.
So far, she's made some changes and is asking for some minor things. Phoenix admits he hasn't done those things. Instead of reading much more into the situation, the smart move would be to help Phoenix improve his communication with this supervisor, follow the minor rule changes and keep on keepin' on... not escalate something he's unlikely to win.
Edited to add: looks like Resolution and I were typing at the same time. I'm not looking to start a "war." Actually, on the contrary I would prefer to just drop it and get on with the job. And I realize any "war" would probably be a losing proposition anyway. Management backs up its own, after all, if my boss fails in her job, it would reflect poorly on their decision to hire her in the first place. Even if I "won" it wouldn't really be "winning." It would just embitter her and make my life miserable going forward.
But on the other hand, I have learned the hard way to be constantly vigilant. Sometimes bosses are out to get you and you need to CYA. I could drop it and do everything she asks and more with a smile and she could still nitpick it to pieces and give me a poor performance rating. I can't assume anything, and it's not like she's left a good positive first impression either.
No, I'm not looking to start a war. On the contrary I'm looking to get out of my current job so I don't have to worry about it anymore. Ideally, in a few months I'll have a job offer and a promotion. No wars needed.
But I will contest any official disciplinary action she takes. I feel such a course of action is wrong, and I will contest it. It's within my rights to do so. Believe me, I'd rather not, but I'm not going to roll over and let them do whatever to my record and my livelihood.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 19:16:39 GMT -5
Get her the "Where's Phoenix?™" app for her smartphone. It pings Phoenix' cellphone GPS and reports his work status based on his current location. Phoenix is speaking with employees over in building 2B.Phoenix is accessing records in the West Library.Phoenix is on the crapper. Estimated time of completion: 10:22:14 AM.Problem solved. Hmmm, I think a "where's Phoenix" book would be more fun.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 19:22:36 GMT -5
...:::"Phoenix had a lot of independence for years, now a new person, and god forbid!, a whiny WOMAN, is telling him what to do and he doesn't like it.":::... For goodness sakes... I know I'd react the same way if it was a white man, or a lesbian martian. While Pheonix did note her gender and ethnicity; he did not specifically state that it was a motivating factor for him. ...:::"Gowron, he isn't being calm and rational and logical--he's got his knickers in a knot.":::... He is upset and venting to US. We don't know exactly how he behaved in front of the supervisor. WWBG is correct.
Her being a female is irrelevant. I just used the appropriate pronoun. The only reason I even brought up the fact she was a minority was because someone asked.
Actually, my last boss and I got along great, probably the best boss I had. She was a woman as well, but didn't micromanage.
It's not just women, my bosses in the Air Force were all men and total jackasses to boot. Actually, they were way worse (for the most part) than my current boss.
WWBG is also correct in the fact I'm far more emotional here because I'm venting to a message board. I was very upset (and still am upset) about it. But for the most part, I think at work I've been the consummate professional. I have not raised by voice and delivered what I thought was a very rational, reasoned, and well spoken argument last week.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 19, 2014 19:26:57 GMT -5
This board is here for venting. I've done it and a lot of us have. I'm quite sure I will be as Princesses wedding approaches to keep me from making DF feel worse. Posters here have a way of talking to you and listening to you. Both are needed.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 19:28:35 GMT -5
"There are lots of ways to fight back without being insubordinate -- the most effective and fun is to give them a taste of their own medicine. Use their own rules against them. They hate that." Does this kind of attitude help anyone? Trying to play games. Ooh great you beat them at thrir own game and they hate that. But guess what? They will also not be a fond of you either. This is not being a professional. If you have an issue with something that you cannot get past, bring it up and discuss. If it doesnt change, then find a new job. Do not ever burn bridges. Well, she does leave early a few days a week and on Fridays because he kids have "activities." I know that shit wouldn't fly with me, but I don't say anything.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 19:33:55 GMT -5
"Well, she does leave early a few days a week and on Fridays because he kids have "activities." I know that shit wouldn't fly with me, but I don't say anything."
It is a good thing you don't say anything. First of all, she is your manager, not vice versa so that shit wouldn't flying with you makes zero difference. Second, do you really want to start a war of catching each other's fault with your MANAGER? Just learn to pick your battles and stop getting your panties in a bunch over every little thing. This probably all could have been avoided if you spoke up. It is usually not a one way street. Just be careful of how you are being perceived even if you have the best intentions.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 19:36:09 GMT -5
"Hence he wasn't ignoring her request" He did say that he was ignoring her requests because they were silly. So it is very likely that this was one of those silly requests that he thought he could ignore. I think you are twisting my words. When she said "use the whiteboard" I interpreted it as if I was out of the office for more than a half a day. I got that because the "official" policy in writing from my boss's boss says update the group calendar if you're out of the office for more than half a day. That's the equivalent of law. Since the whiteboard serves the same purpose, notifying people if I'm out, I initially thought the same types of rules applied.
Obviously that was a mistake, but she never really specified the frequency of using the whiteboard until she was stating she's going to write me up for it. She says she did tell me verbally once, but I don't recall that specific instruction.
She didn't exercise good communication initially regarding the white board. We were operating on two different wavelengths.
It appears my ability to read minds was impaired for the first few weeks of working with her.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 19:40:47 GMT -5
"There are lots of ways to fight back without being insubordinate -- the most effective and fun is to give them a taste of their own medicine. Use their own rules against them. They hate that." Does this kind of attitude help anyone? Trying to play games. Ooh great you beat them at thrir own game and they hate that. But guess what? They will also not be a fond of you either. This is not being a professional. If you have an issue with something that you cannot get past, bring it up and discuss. If it doesnt change, then find a new job. Do not ever burn bridges. Well, she does leave early a few days a week and on Fridays because he kids have "activities." I know that shit wouldn't fly with me, but I don't say anything. does she sign out on the white board?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 19:44:41 GMT -5
"I think you are twisting my words"
Which part? Because i copy pasted your exact words in another post and they sounded exactly like that. You are not reading between the lines or actually what she is telling you straight forward. She said she saw a "trend" and that is what she will counsel or reprimend for, not because of just one task. Don't get so hung up on one thing because otherwise you will end up in the same spot over and over.
Also, changing jobs won't do any good if you don't change your attitude. You may have won the last one but this is your second time this is happening. You may win this one too but it won't change the fact that you didn 't do what you were asked, you flat out ignored it. If you win, it will be because of the description your work uses, not because anything she claims is untrue.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 19:47:11 GMT -5
Also, in regards to her leaving early, she could be doing work from home. I would not say anything about that.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 19, 2014 20:07:55 GMT -5
I dunno, if the long standing agency rule is to only inform people via your calendar if you're gone more than half a day, I also would have assumed the same rules would have applied to the white board unless otherwise told. Just figuring my boss prefers to see it on my cube instead of looking up my calendar.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 19, 2014 20:21:32 GMT -5
Just the fact of losing my regular office in order to return to cubicle-land, so that my new boss could babysit me, would have me looking for a new job pronto. No promotion needed!
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 20:30:16 GMT -5
"I dunno, if the long standing agency rule is to only inform people via your calendar if you're gone more than half a day, I also would have assumed the same rules would have applied to the white board unless otherwise told. Just figuring my boss prefers to see it on my cube instead of looking up my calendar. "
I understand that. And i bet she would have handled it different if it was just that. By his own admission, he has simply dismissed her requests on other things because he thought they were silly. And she is writing him up for a trend, not for just failung to sign in/out. Everyone seems to focus on just this one task.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 19, 2014 21:07:40 GMT -5
Phoenix84: What role does she serve in your office? By that I'm wondering what her job responsibilities are. It sounds to me that your workload is determined by whatever requires your input or your signature at any given point in time. You're not collaborating with a team or working on a particular project. Requests come in and you deal with them by yourself on a case by case basis. That's the impression I get. If that's the case, then what is the role of your supervisor? Does she assign work? Coordinate between you and people you work with? Or is she mainly a warm body your employer stuck there to make sure a certain amount of work is being done each week, where her only real job is to make sure you do yours? The answer doesn't have any bearing on this "insubordination" issue. I'm just curious.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 19, 2014 22:55:28 GMT -5
Phoenix84: What role does she serve in your office? By that I'm wondering what her job responsibilities are. It sounds to me that your workload is determined by whatever requires your input or your signature at any given point in time. You're not collaborating with a team or working on a particular project. Requests come in and you deal with them by yourself on a case by case basis. That's the impression I get. If that's the case, then what is the role of your supervisor? Does she assign work? Coordinate between you and people you work with? Or is she mainly a warm body your employer stuck there to make sure a certain amount of work is being done each week, where her only real job is to make sure you do yours? The answer doesn't have any bearing on this "insubordination" issue. I'm just curious. Honestly, I don't really know what her role is. Her position is actually new, didn't exist before February.
This is about all I know:
Originally, safety was basically handled by regional managers. There were two, one for the east and one for the west. My old boss was the one for the west, but I'm responsible for the radiation safety program nationwide.
Basically, in late February, we reorganized into one safety branch, and my old boss was basically put under her peer in the east as a "section chief" to cover industrial hygiene and radiation. There was a lot of friction and tension because of this, but I'm not privy to the details. It culminated in my old boss retiring. Basically, after my old boss retired because of this, they moved my current boss up into her vacated position. Again, I am not privy for the how's and why's upper management did all this, obviously they didn't ask for my opinion, but I suspect there was some political maneuvering going on.
Honestly, I don't know what my boss's role is. I suspect, based on a few comments from my old boss, that basically the "eastern chief" didn't want to deal with radiation and/or IH and therefore convinced upper management to pass it off to an underling, a new position in which boss inhabits now. But again, I'm not privy to the details.
All of that stuff in and of itself wouldn't bother me. But it is kind of a weird situation to be in, to be supervised by someone who is supervised by someone of the same grade level, and by someone who only supervises 3 people. Most managers of her grade manage far more people, at least 5 or 6.
Anyway, to answer your question directly, I think she's basically a stopgap so the former eastern chief doesn't have to deal with specific program areas. I think she does some stuff with general safety still from her old job, and I know she deals with some general safety auditors.
She does not have any real involvement in my functions as a RSO. My name is on the license, I basically run the show. She does not coordinate or schedule work with the scientists I oversee.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 19, 2014 23:00:13 GMT -5
...
Anyway, to answer your question directly, I think she's basically a stopgap so the former eastern chief doesn't have to deal with specific program areas. I think she does some stuff with general safety still from her old job, and I know she deals with some general safety auditors.
She does not have any real involvement in my functions as a RSO. My name is on the license, I basically run the show. She does not coordinate or schedule work with the scientists I oversee.
I'd kind of figured. Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 20, 2014 1:47:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure where you guys got the impression I was looking to start a prolonged "war" with my supervisor. I have stated in several different posts that my overarching goal is to find a new job, and in the meantime try not to antagonize the situation more than necessary.
As I said, I know being confrontational would be a losing battle in the long run, which is why I'm plotting my escape. However, if she forces my hand, I will defend myself against disciplinary actions within the bounds of the law and my rights.
And really, it's in their best interest to keep me around and motivated to do job. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm irreplaceable, but with the hiring freeze and massive budget cuts, replacing me would not be fast or easy. And nothing can trip up a organization like having no one to manage your regulatory requirements.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2014 7:08:21 GMT -5
" I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm irreplaceable, but with the hiring freeze and massive budget cuts, replacing me would not be fast or easy. And nothing can trip up a organization like having no one to manage your regulatory requirements."
They usually find a way around things or just don't do them so i wouldn't rely on being "irreplaceable" because noone is! I hope she decides to just do the counseling so you don't have to go through a fight that you might lose because you are in the wrong. If you were so dismissive, are you sure NONE of it was in writing anywhere? I would make sure she can't prove before going down that path and not just rely in a 2 minute conversation with HR from your memory.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 20, 2014 7:14:28 GMT -5
I think posters are trying to point put that based on some of your posts the boss could infer that you are out to start a "war" and trying to help you rethink/change your approach to avoid that. As you've already seen how you intend something to come across doesn't really matter. It's all in how the manager perceives it.
Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 20, 2014 7:16:55 GMT -5
Plus, I am sure you are not doing a very good job of hiding your feelings.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2014 7:36:28 GMT -5
" I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm irreplaceable, but with the hiring freeze and massive budget cuts, replacing me would not be fast or easy. And nothing can trip up a organization like having no one to manage your regulatory requirements." They usually find a way around things or just don't do them so i wouldn't rely on being "irreplaceable" because noone is! I hope she decides to just do the counseling so you don't have to go through a fight that you might lose because you are in the wrong. If you were so dismissive, are you sure NONE of it was in writing anywhere? I would make sure she can't prove before going down that path and not just rely in a 2 minute conversation with HR from your memory. I don't think not doing them is an option with nuclear safety....
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2014 7:42:29 GMT -5
I think some people are projecting issues in their own lives onto this story.
Phoenix already said that he's spoken to the Supervisor, they're trying to work this out and from here on out he's keeping his head down and doing his job.
Any coulda, shoulda, woulda's are superfluous at the point. He's not bringing it up anymore and she's not bringing it up anymore, so maybe we should stop bringing it up too?
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