8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:00:13 GMT -5
...:::"Phoenix had a lot of independence for years, now a new person, and god forbid!, a whiny WOMAN, is telling him what to do and he doesn't like it.":::...
For goodness sakes... I know I'd react the same way if it was a white man, or a lesbian martian. While Pheonix did note her gender and ethnicity; he did not specifically state that it was a motivating factor for him.
...:::"Gowron, he isn't being calm and rational and logical--he's got his knickers in a knot.":::...
He is upset and venting to US. We don't know exactly how he behaved in front of the supervisor.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 18, 2014 22:01:42 GMT -5
IMHO, we're not doing Phoenix any favors by offering inflammatory recommendations or interpretations on the situation. Maybe she is a hardass who is making silly demands or maybe she's not. It's possible in the discussions with the outgoing supervisor, the outgoing supervisor mentioned that Phoenix is a good worker, but appears to have difficulty keeping a schedule or following rules, so she started out keeping an eye on this. When she tried to make some changes so she could keep an eye on the situation (asking the desk be moved and Phoenix write his location on the white board), Phoenix inadvertently reinforced the concerns by not communicating what he was working on and talking to her about moving the deadline and/or modifying the white board system.
Talking about how Phoenix should manage this "war" or stirring him up may be fun and make you feel like a Big Enchilada, but there's a real possibility that this could hurt Phoenix in his job. It's not often that an employee is able to beat a supervisor in such a head on battle and that's what he'd be getting into if he takes a confrontational stand.
So far, she's made some changes and is asking for some minor things. Phoenix admits he hasn't done those things. Instead of reading much more into the situation, the smart move would be to help Phoenix improve his communication with this supervisor, follow the minor rule changes and keep on keepin' on... not escalate something he's unlikely to win.
Edited to add: looks like Resolution and I were typing at the same time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:04:54 GMT -5
But he's already taken those steps and seems to understand what he needs to do, and is following through with what he can do on his end... No one said don't follow the minor rules. Just that some of us agree the rules seem stupid, and again, works both ways... If it's going to be letters of reprimand over minor things, well, I'd be looking for other employment.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:06:45 GMT -5
...:::"I am concerned you are reinforcing an outlook that could get phoenix in more trouble. Looking down on the boss and questioning her directions is not the way to develop a peaceful work environment with her.":::...
Perhaps -- though if you'll read my previous posts I have said at least once that I hope all of this can be resolved with a peaceful conversation.
Lets just say that personally, I too am currently dealing with some people who have been left to run unchecked, and think they have more power than they have. I dealt in good faith, and it turns out that backroom shenanigans and gossip rule the day. Well, fool me once...
I refuse to be a powerless victim. There are lots of ways to fight back without being insubordinate -- the most effective and fun is to give them a taste of their own medicine. Use their own rules against them. They hate that.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 18, 2014 22:09:39 GMT -5
This is a bad strategy to use in personal relationships. At work, it's flat out career suicide. Get help. This is not healthy, normal or good for anybody.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:11:25 GMT -5
"But he's already taken those steps and seems to understand what he needs to do, and is following through with what he can do on his end... "
So he knows he didn't do what he was supposed to... Good. But that doesn't mean she has to drop what she planned on doing. It shouldn't take a reprimend or counseling for a professional to do simple tasks asked by his supervisor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:13:21 GMT -5
This is a bad strategy to use in personal relationships. At work, it's flat out career suicide. Get help. This is not healthy, normal or good for anybody. Can you expand please? I'm not sure what you are refering to..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:15:08 GMT -5
"But he's already taken those steps and seems to understand what he needs to do, and is following through with what he can do on his end... " So he knows he didn't do what he was supposed to... Good. But that doesn't mean she has to drop what she planned on doing. It shouldn't take a reprimend or counseling for a professional to do simple tasks asked by his supervisor. She can do whatever she likes. And if it were me, and she continued with a formal letter of reprimand, I'd log a grievance and be interviewing as soon as possible...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:15:25 GMT -5
"There are lots of ways to fight back without being insubordinate -- the most effective and fun is to give them a taste of their own medicine. Use their own rules against them. They hate that."
Does this kind of attitude help anyone? Trying to play games. Ooh great you beat them at thrir own game and they hate that. But guess what? They will also not be a fond of you either. This is not being a professional. If you have an issue with something that you cannot get past, bring it up and discuss. If it doesnt change, then find a new job. Do not ever burn bridges.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:17:57 GMT -5
"She can do whatever she likes. And if it were me, and she continued with a formal letter of reprimand, I'd log a grievance and be interviewing as soon as possible..."
If he can file and win, great for him. But then again 2 similar issues with the same guy, no matter what the outcome, is not going to look good. Of course, at this point he cannot change what he did or did not do so hopefully a lesson learned going forward. And there is also what if he doesn't win?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:18:35 GMT -5
I said nothing of personal relationships. This is a work situation. I'll give you a bit more detail, though in the form of an analogy.
I'm a chef who cooks for 4 people. I have no skin in the game (I'm fed by someone else); so I can be trusted to feed fairly. I routinely meet with all 4 people together to discuss menus and ingredients. I am tasked with selecting menus that meet the needs of everyone.
One of my four diners is simply not happy sharing, despite having been given a lot of leeway already. He wants total control over the menu. He thinks he deserves it because he is a plurality. So he will participate in the talks to my face, then go behind my back. He has managed to manipulate things so that his preferences get done in full; and the others get scraps or nothing.
I have 3 other diners depending on me -- not to mention that if I'm not serving my purpose, I'm probably not needed.
So yeah; its not always sunshine and unicorns. I don't have to start a war. But I'm sure not going to re-balance things by asking nicely again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:19:55 GMT -5
"Perhaps -- though if you'll read my previous posts I have said at least once that I hope all of this can be resolved with a peaceful conversation."
Maybe the issue with your posts is you expect the peace to come from the manager...
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resolution
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Post by resolution on May 18, 2014 22:20:44 GMT -5
Something to consider is that phoenix is in a totally different place. His situation should be salvageable with improved communication and by following directions promptly. He doesn't need to get into a war or a tit-for-tat situation. I have seen a number of these wars and it has always gone worse for the employee than the supervisor.
His best bet is to repair the relationship, even if he is looking for another job. Once he establishes that he is willing to follow directions, he can work on some compromises on a more dignified way to account for his time, like the outlook calendar.
Also please be mindful that with Aspergers, it is much easier for him to miscalculate a social interaction and inadvertently escalate the situation. It's not fair, but the bottom line is that he has to be more careful because he may have a harder time finding a way out of a social misstep.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:22:20 GMT -5
" He has managed to manipulate things so that his preferences get done in full; and the others get scraps or nothing."
So you know that you have to play the office politics. It doesnt matter how great of a worker you are, the one with better connections/the one that gets along better with coworkers will always win.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:23:00 GMT -5
Maybe the issues with yours is that you think being the manager is carte Blanche to do whatever the heck you want to your subordinates and they should just take it like good little puppy dogs, whether it makes sense or not, whether manager overreacts or not...
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:23:23 GMT -5
...:::"Does this kind of attitude help anyone? Trying to play games. Ooh great you beat them at thrir own game and they hate that. But guess what? They will also not be a fond of you either. This is not being a professional. If you have an issue with something that you cannot get past, bring it up and discuss. If it doesnt change, then find a new job. Do not ever burn bridges.":::...
OK so what is the alternative? Accept an unjustified reprimand, and accusations of insubordination?
Honestly, I think the "does this attitude help anyone" is equally applied to the calm discussion. Some people can be reasoned with, some can't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:24:08 GMT -5
He seems to be handling things well enough ...
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:29:24 GMT -5
...:::"Maybe the issue with your posts is you expect the peace to come from the manager...":::...
Believe it or not, I am a HUGE sucker for the "lets talk it out". While I meant what I said about the loss of my personal office being a declaration of war; I'd still probably have tried to salvage SOMETHING via a "I think we got off on the wrong foot". A simple analysis of likely outcomes makes it crystal clear that such is the best chance for one less stressor. I've personally won that situation too. I successfully got a person to avoid filing a formal protest over a misunderstanding. We are friends now.
She has to be willing to make peace too. Pheonix said his bit. Its in her court now. She can choose to give him the benefit of the doubt and they can start over. She can pursue her soft letter if she wants, or she can go for the harder reprimand, which he has the right to contest, and will probably win.
I do appreciate the additional point of view about how Pheonix DID fail to do as asked. The supervisor isn't wrong to see it that way, and Pheonix seems to be owning that. While we all know it was because of more important work, that isn't how she is going to play it.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:34:19 GMT -5
...:::"So you know that you have to play the office politics. It doesnt matter how great of a worker you are, the one with better connections/the one that gets along better with coworkers will always win.":::...
Exactly. I'm merely coming at it from a point that I ALREADY tried the whole "in good faith" thing. My other 3 diners are more than happy to band together with me, and reclaim their share of the food from the fourth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:40:16 GMT -5
"Maybe the issues with yours is that you think being the manager is carte Blanche to do whatever the heck you want to your subordinates and they should just take it like good little puppy dogs, whether it makes sense or not, whether manager overreacts or not..."
Not at all. I just think this is not a hill to die on and it wasn't from the beginning. It was 2 very simple tasks and right off the bet. If he had an issue, he should have discussed it with her before she lit a fire under his a$$ is what i am saying. In a professional environment, you don 't just ignore tasks you are assigned to do and hope they go away.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 22:41:00 GMT -5
" I ALREADY tried"
Exactly! YOU did, not phoenix.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 18, 2014 22:43:21 GMT -5
Get her the "Where's Phoenix?™" app for her smartphone. It pings Phoenix' cellphone GPS and reports his work status based on his current location. Phoenix is speaking with employees over in building 2B.Phoenix is accessing records in the West Library.Phoenix is on the crapper. Estimated time of completion: 10:22:14 AM.Problem solved.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 22:48:29 GMT -5
...:::"His best bet is to repair the relationship, even if he is looking for another job. Once he establishes that he is willing to follow directions, he can work on some compromises on a more dignified way to account for his time, like the outlook calendar.":::...
In the end, this is really what I hope happens. He seems to be taking this stance too and I'm sure he'll be fine. He is a smart guy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 23:41:45 GMT -5
When Nextel phones came out, I had a boss who insisted if we were doing the help calls that we had to take one to the toilet with us.
I am sorry, you have to hold the line of personal space somewhere. You should be able to be an adult and use the toilet without monitoring... Shit, they trust him with nuclear materials, he isn't the cook at McDonalds.
And, if she insists that he notify her every time he goes to the can, then I would be very specific about it. Maybe she will get the hint that his crap routine really isn't something she wants to manage after all.....
In a union job we had a new manager who tried to tell us we had to raise our hands to use the toilet. The union shut her up in short order and pointed out that we were all adults with the freedom to urinate and poop when necessary.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 23:49:45 GMT -5
"When Nextel phones came out, I had a boss who insisted if we were doing the help calls that we had to take one to the toilet with us. " That sounds lovely if you don't speak up then you are basically saying you will comply. I am not suggesting people do everything their managers ask with no questions at all. If you have a better suggestion or a legitimate reason then of course make your point to your manager but playing passive aggresive and ignoring the request is not professional or good for your career as you can see in phoenix 's example. Just use common sense. If phoenix went to his manager and explained why it wasn't possible to move on friday ir why he couldnt sign in/out everytime AND she still reprimended, tgat would be different but he didnt even attempt. He was just pushing back for a reason, maybe because she was a new employee and got the promotion, maybe because she is a female and/or a minority or maybe because he thinks she got tge job for being a female minority which he already mentioned!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 9:44:11 GMT -5
"A lot of it isn'tt that hard, but since I find them silly or stupid I sometimes do them late or am dismissive when talking about them. "
I think his statement above speaks for itself. Combine that with his attitude towards her thinking she got the job for being a minority. he mentions this and only this. When asked about why he thinks she was promoted, he says he doesnt know. Ummm, could it be because she was qualified?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 19, 2014 10:17:17 GMT -5
When Nextel phones came out, I had a boss who insisted if we were doing the help calls that we had to take one to the toilet with us. I am sorry, you have to hold the line of personal space somewhere. You should be able to be an adult and use the toilet without monitoring... Shit, they trust him with nuclear materials, he isn't the cook at McDonalds. And, if she insists that he notify her every time he goes to the can, then I would be very specific about it. Maybe she will get the hint that his crap routine really isn't something she wants to manage after all..... In a union job we had a new manager who tried to tell us we had to raise our hands to use the toilet. The union shut her up in short order and pointed out that we were all adults with the freedom to urinate and poop when necessary. No one suggested something like this, Shasta. I believe she said if he was going to be longer than 15 min somewhere. Most people go to the can in less time than that. He works on a large campus, where he could be in a bunch of different buildings doing his job. It is not unreasonable for him to let his boss know where he is going to be. Hell, when I was working and if I was going to be working in another lab in another building, I either told a coworker or left a note on my computer where I was going to be.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 19, 2014 10:20:51 GMT -5
Plus, as a manager, you look like an idiot if you don't know where your employees are and what they're doing or working on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 10:29:12 GMT -5
Another reason maybe a safety issue. In case of something happening, if noone knows where he is, they cannot help him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 10:42:20 GMT -5
maybe she could have just said to Phoenix - 'if you are going to be away from your desk for more than 30 minutes, please let me know' instead of 'sign in/out on this whiteboard'. email could have worked...a post-it note on his monitor or cube....rather than the my way or the highway thing.
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