resolution
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Post by resolution on May 15, 2014 6:15:09 GMT -5
I hope your meeting goes well and that you are able to patch things up and develop a decent working relationship. It sounds like you enjoy your work overall and it would be a shame for you to leave it due to a personality conflict or a bad boss.
I did have one very abrasive boss who I thought was incredibly rude and vulgar, and after about a month we were able to develop a smooth working relationship and ended up being one of my favorite bosses. It took a bit of unbending on both of our parts though. I had another one later that wasn't fixable, so you can't win them all but you can give it your best shot.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 9:34:06 GMT -5
Well said, Rukh!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 15, 2014 20:32:08 GMT -5
...:::"If she still insists on officially disciplining me, I'll say something like "I'm sorry you feel these matters are so serious, but I disagree. If you write a letter of reprimand, I will issue grievance with it and appeal the letter."":::... I second the statement not to show your cards on this. She's already proven she has a chip on her shoulder. I think that if you say you will issue grievance, you'll just embolden her to submit the harsher letter. That statement will also probably be the first item on her list of "proof" when she claims insubordination. Its also bad strategy on your part. You'd give away your next move and she'd be ready and planning for it. Instead, it needs to blindside her. She can then decide whether it is more important for you to do your work, or fight her. Not many people get to say "this place might blow up if I don't do my job"
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 16, 2014 0:51:05 GMT -5
I would edit your wording quite a bit.... make sure you are applying misunderstanding and mistake only to yourself/your perceptions/your actions. Do not say "if you discipline me, I will....." That's a threat Finally - don't structure this entire meeting around what is happening to you and what you want. You should present the current situation merely as a back drop to how you do a good job. You can say that previously - you were autonomous and focused on your important deliverables/safety duties and you are seeking guidance in how to continue to do that in conjunction with what she is expecting. Present this as a communication and prioritization issue that you need to understand. You're right about trying to present the misunderstanding and mistake as applying to myself. I'm trying to be disarming and non confrontational. Pissing her off and having her dig in her heels would be counter productive to that goal.
What I was referring to was initially doing what I said above, AND THEN ask her what her intentions are. If she says she'll do nothing, or just issue a unofficial letter of counseling, I'll drop it and do my best to move on. However, I'm referring to that last part about "threatening" to fight it only if she still insists on continuing with the official warning. To put it simply, I don't believe in threats, if I say I'm going to do something I'm going to do it, and I think, given she's new, she may not realize how serious a letter of reprimand is and the fact that I CAN appeal it.
It's basically my last line of defense before we go through the official and messy processes. I certainly hope I don't have to say that, and will avoid doing it however I can.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 16, 2014 0:59:05 GMT -5
Basically this is the current situation.
I sent her an e-mail (for documentation) requesting a meeting. I told her I met with HR and have a better understanding of the situation, and have had time to organize my thoughts. I'd like to talk to her to try and reach a resolution and explain my actions.
She has not responded yet. She has given me a significant amount of work lately with short deadlines though. Some of it she gave to everyone so I'm not sure if it's related, but it is possible she is intentionally trying to get me to miss deadlines so she can start documenting failures in performance. I don't know.
But, given how slow she has been in reviewing my work, who knows when (or even if she'll ever) get around to writing anything. She also may be contacting HR, like I did, trying to gather more information before pursing the matter further as well.
So, we'll see.
Our personal interaction so far has been polite and courteous. But we both e-mail a lot more and are far more formal with each other. I have taken to sending her regular, detailed e-mails about when I will be out of the office before I'm out of the office. I explain when I will be gone, where I am going, what I am doing when I'm there, and why I am doing it.
Here's a summary of a recent e-mail I sent.
"Boss,
I will be in building X tomorrow from 9:00 to about 11:00 to conduct radiation safety training with some X university students. I will be in building X because training requires me to talk for lengthy periods of time, which would be disruptive to our co workers. I anticipate being back in the office from 11:00 to 11:30. Please let me know if you have any questions or want me to alter my schedule."
She responded that was fine. So hopefully exercising better communication of where I am and what I am doing will help resolve the issues.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 16, 2014 1:11:29 GMT -5
I hope your meeting goes well and that you are able to patch things up and develop a decent working relationship. It sounds like you enjoy your work overall and it would be a shame for you to leave it due to a personality conflict or a bad boss. I did have one very abrasive boss who I thought was incredibly rude and vulgar, and after about a month we were able to develop a smooth working relationship and ended up being one of my favorite bosses. It took a bit of unbending on both of our parts though. I had another one later that wasn't fixable, so you can't win them all but you can give it your best shot. I do really care about the work I do. I recognize how important it is, and I really enjoyed the level of independence I had. I wouldn't say it was frequent, but I when I needed to, I didn't mind working late nights or weekends to accomplish goals, because I felt my old boss was trusting me to get the job done. It's just sad and frustrating that's not the case anymore.
I won't say the job was ever perfect, no job is, but yes, I enjoyed the challenge of it and, although it's kind of a thankless task, I got a sense a pride in keeping people and the public safe from the harmful effects of radiation.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 16, 2014 1:15:05 GMT -5
...:::"If she still insists on officially disciplining me, I'll say something like "I'm sorry you feel these matters are so serious, but I disagree. If you write a letter of reprimand, I will issue grievance with it and appeal the letter."":::... I second the statement not to show your cards on this. She's already proven she has a chip on her shoulder. I think that if you say you will issue grievance, you'll just embolden her to submit the harsher letter. That statement will also probably be the first item on her list of "proof" when she claims insubordination. Its also bad strategy on your part. You'd give away your next move and she'd be ready and planning for it. Instead, it needs to blindside her. She can then decide whether it is more important for you to do your work, or fight her. Not many people get to say "this place might blow up if I don't do my job" Hmmm, interesting point.
I was not planning on revealing that "card" unless I had to, but you make a good point in that even if she does intend to follow through with harsh disciplinarily action, it might be a good idea for my resistance to blindside her. It would put her on the spot unexpendedly and, as you said, force her decide if it's really worth the trouble.
You guys are probably right. It's difficult to separate my emotions from the situation, but I need to do everything I can to not be confrontational and give her more of an idea I'm insubordinate.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 16, 2014 10:15:03 GMT -5
Bingo Phoenix84, its like the difference between how Sonny handled things, and how Michael did. Its very hard not to get emotional and rage filled. But if you can remain calm, you'll be in a great position! If you can keep HER on edge, you'll have a major advantage. The crowd is fleeting, but tends to side with the one showing more reason. Your boss might very well give herself a bad reputation with HR and her own superiors if she acts emotionally and/or recklessly. Imagine if she keeps flinging out trumped up, unsupportable claims, only to have you calmly swat them away. As was discussed, insubordination is a hefty charge. You can't just fling that around. And if she does, and you can beat it. Boom. She tries a disciplinary action when its not warranted, she'll have them growing tired of her. Dude, this is going to suck. You have to be perfect; and it is utterly tiring having to watch each and every one of your steps. Constant vigilance is draining. I REALLY hope that all it takes is a conversation to sort this whole mess out. Maybe you'll end up the best of friends. Such is much easier than having to fight a prolonged cold war.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2014 20:44:41 GMT -5
I havent read all the responses but the below is a pretty crappy thing to say. Is it possible that this thought of yours is showing?
"She is a of Hispanic descent, which may have played a role"
From what i read she asked 2 things and you haven't done one and you were late on the other. That is not a very good first impression.
I would not run to HR at every little thing or you will get a reputation of being a difficult employee.
And I disagree with the person that said she sounds like she has a chip on her shoulders. I think it is vice versa. Just pick your battles and don't threaten your boss with going to HR, especially when you haven't done what she asked.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 17, 2014 21:02:21 GMT -5
...:::"And I disagree with the person that said she sounds like she has a chip on her shoulders. I think it is vice versa.":::...
I said she has a chip on her shoulder, and I've seen no evidence to the contrary. These idiot "managers" are a dime a dozen. They come and go. She won't be the first, and she sure won't be the last. She has no concept of what is good for the organization. She just has something to prove.
She comes in and without any respect for the people who fulfill valuable functions; she starts throwing her ill-deserved title around. She does one of the most demoralizing thing a boss can do to an employee -- takes away a well deserved personal space to treat him like a pet -- chained in the yard. She has no mind to hear when her fastidious whims don't get executed immediately. Because you know... the nuclear regulatory commission can wait so he can move offices.
Phoenix is the absolute worst possible nightmare for a person like this boss. He is smart, and he'll bat back each and every one of her sad, pathetic, insecure whines with calm rational logic. The best thing Pheonix can do is let this idiot burn herself out as she tries to power play, and reveal herself to be more trouble than she is worth.
I give it 6 months. Either she'll be "moved" to a "special independent project" or Pheonix, who actually HAS skills and therefore options, will have flipped her the bird, and moved on to people who actually appreciate his value.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2014 21:51:26 GMT -5
"She comes in and without any respect for the people who fulfill valuable functions; she starts throwing her ill-deserved title around. She does one of the most demoralizing thing a boss can do to an employee -- takes away a well deserved personal space to treat him like a pet -- chained in the yard. "
You can talk about how evil she is til you are blue in the face. But that doesn't change the fact that she is his supervisor. I think if she prefers to run her department differently than the one before she has a right to do so. As far as the office, nobody is immune to being moved into a cubicle. Sure, he can certainly run to HR at every little thing but it will not give him the best reputation. Whether he is right or wrong is irrelevant in reality. Even just knowing that he has a history from before (where he was obviously in the right) and now this thread (going to HR) makes me think he is a difficult employee. You have to let some things roll off your shoulders. Of course, that point for phoenix was when she asked him to sign in/out and move when she asked. He should have just done those, especially because they were such petty things and there wouldn't even be anything to discuss.
I had a micromanager for a boss for about 4 years. Everytime he would do something ridiculous i would tell myself that i would talk to our department head so he can change my direct supervisor. But within a matter of hours i would just forget about it or decide to humor him as i believe managers should get to have their way just for being a manager, not for everything but certainly for minor things, like signing in/out of a white board. I am glad i never did anything about it because i have asked him to be a reference for licenses several times already. If i acted otherwise i would be burning bridges and for what?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 18, 2014 4:36:45 GMT -5
...sorry to hear this, Phoenix... hope things are coming along smoothly at work... I can't say that I wouldn't want to write on my whiteboard every time I went to the restroom... 40yo bladders and colons don't always work on demand, and she's given 10min to include time in transit?
...fwiw, I just left my job for similar reasons... the daily wish list given me was mile long, the pile up from yesterday's wish list was a mile deep, and my requests for additional time/resources to accomplish them was met with a, "we're shorthanded and you just have to get used to it."
See ya...
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 18, 2014 5:39:11 GMT -5
Maybe we should start a thread about whether guys with new supervisors are more hormonal than most?
Phoenix, I cannot believe you are turning this into a confrontation. No, I can, because you guys always have to be hierarchical and you want to be "alpha".
Really, if you had been a little more flexible and communicative, she would have settled in and this likely would have been a non-issue in a month.
If you want to see micromanagement, work in an OR as a nurse with doctors everywhere. I do anesthesia. I cannot leave a room during a case unless someone is there to give me a break. If I give someone else a break, I have to write down--on a whiteboard--to what room I am going. I cannot go to lunch unless someone is there to relieve me or my room is down.
And this supervisor ain't got nothin' on JCAHO micromanagement.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 18, 2014 5:50:40 GMT -5
Gowron, he isn't being calm and rational and logical--he's got his knickers in a knot. I understand he doesn't like the loss of independence. I went from working in one place where I had almost complete independence to one which turned out to have a LOT less. I have been here ten years, because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Phoenix had a lot of independence for years, now a new person, and god forbid!, a whiny WOMAN, is telling him what to do and he doesn't like it. I get that. I have whiny surgeons and anesthesiologists telling me what to do, or trying to, all day long.
I like Phoenix, but he is blowing this way out of proportion. He needs to adapt and communicate. I understand he has an important job and deadlines--and he may very well be right about these needing to come before some of the boss's deadlines-- and he can explain these to the boss and if he had done so and asked for her input prioritizing, this likely would not have happened.
Instead, he got his back up and things escalated and now both are digging in their heels.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 18, 2014 13:53:51 GMT -5
We had the meeting I talked about on Friday.
It went about as well as could be expected.
I explained how, historically I had a lot of independence in setting my own schedule or prioritizing my own tasks. That the recent issues were miscommunications and misunderstandings based on the rapid changes that have occurred, and that I recognized I needed to make changes in order to bring things more in line with her expectations.
She basically said the reason she is writing those things is because she noticed a "trend." I didn't say it at the time, but I should have, gone back to the misunderstandings and just say the transition period hasn't been very long, and the fact that there's a "trend" is just because of miscommunications. I followed WWBG's advice about not saying anything in regards to appealing the a letter of reprimand or anything about insubordination, instead focusing on being as disarming and not confrontational as possible.
She did seem far less confrontational about the whole thing, and didn't talk about insubordination at all. I suspect she talked to HR and they told her to soften up on that language, because as I said, you have to prove it. She said she would consider what I said when moving forward, though she still will write a letter of counseling or letter of reprimand.
I've done about all I can do at this point. If she writes a letter of counseling (which I think is more likely) I'll just say "no hard feelings" and drop it. If she does write a letter of reprimand, I'll appeal and issue grievance at that time. I will try to do my best to keep a positive attitude and smooth things over. Things are going to be hard enough without antagonizing the situation further. And I'll have to be constantly vigilant about being "perfect." But still, I know I can't trust her to let this go, and in the meantime, I'm going to continue aggressively applying for other jobs to get the hell outta Dodge ASAP.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 14:00:26 GMT -5
Sorry to hear and good luck with the job search.
In the meantime: toe the line. Send her emails letting her know what you are doing, write on the board to go empty your bladder, etc.
She asked you to jump, no ifs or buts... Just "how high". Keep it professional.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 18, 2014 14:11:58 GMT -5
For those wondering, I was already thinking about moving on before all this came up. Ultimately, there are no real advancement opportunities at my current agency, because basically I'm overhead. The only reason they keep someone like me around is because federal law says they have to. As a result, I've risen as high as I'll ever go.
I have recognized for some time the real opportunities are with the Department of Energy, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, or the Navy.
So, I'd be looking at other jobs anyway if all this wasn't going on. But the current situation has made me far more aggressive than I otherwise would be.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 14:43:00 GMT -5
This is why I suck in a large office environment with micromanagement. I would get a giant whiteboard and be very specific when I left my desk = Currently crapping. Might be constipated and take 10 minutes Had to pee, too much coffee, back in 5 minutes.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 18, 2014 14:44:23 GMT -5
Do you have a letter of recommendation from your previous supervisor? If not, you should get one ASAP.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:13:10 GMT -5
" I didn't say it at the time, but I should have, gone back to the misunderstandings and just say the transition period hasn't been very long, and the fact that there's a "trend" is just because of miscommunications."
I think it is good that you didnt say this because it would have just sounded like a poor excuse. You are not a 5-year old. You are a professional who has been working for several years. It shouldn't take more than being told once to do something. It is not like what she asked of you was something remotely difficult. If you had a problem with what she asked, you should have brought it up then rather than being passive aggressive about it.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:17:00 GMT -5
"She did seem far less confrontational about the whole thing, and didn't talk about insubordination at all. I suspect she talked to HR and they told her to soften up on that language, because as I said, you have to prove it. She said she would consider what I said when moving forward, though she still will write a letter of counseling or letter of reprimand."
I don't get what was confrontational about telling you that you failed to do what you were asked of. Did you do it? No. So telling you that is not confrontational. It is her job to manage you. Just because you don't like how she is managing doesnt mean she was confrontational. If anything, she was nice enough to tell you up front what she was going to do.
"And I'll have to be constantly vigilant about being "perfect." But still, I know I can't trust her to let this go, "
She didn't ask you to be perfect. As far as what i read, she asked for 2 very simple things and neither got done/or timely.
With the attitude you have, you should never ever leave the government sector because you would not last in the private sector.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:19:40 GMT -5
"I would get a giant whiteboard and be very specific when I left my desk =
Currently crapping. Might be constipated and take 10 minutes
Had to pee, too much coffee, back in 5 minutes. "
I don 't know if you are serious but i hope nobody is dumb enough to do something like this.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:22:20 GMT -5
I think she was being confrontational by suggesting he was insubordinate and threatening Formal reprimand.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:27:40 GMT -5
"I think she was being confrontational by suggesting he was insubordinate and threatening Formal reprimand. "
But he was insubordinate. And i think she was just informing not threatening. There she is, just promoted to be his manager and she was there a lot less than he was. She asks him 2 things and neither get done as she asks. It looks to me like he just didnt think whatever she asked him to do was important enough for him so he chose to not do them. I can see the "trend".
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:32:06 GMT -5
By the way, just to be clear, i am not trying to pick on phoenix. I just think if he continues with this attitude, history will repeat itself over and over. My comments are objective, independent of who the OP is.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:33:12 GMT -5
No, he was just responding as if management hadn't changed. HR seemed clear she'd have a hard time making the claim of malicious defiance stick under the circumstances.
I think this stuff works both ways. If I wanted something different than previous management, i'd recognize there is a transition period and offer explanation and reinforcement of what I want before going straight to threats and inflammatory language...
Peronally I'd be sending out my resume ASAP. I wouldn't work well under a micromanager, esp one who seems to rush towards judgement and threats.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:41:38 GMT -5
"I think this stuff works both ways. If I wanted something different than previous management, i'd recognize there is a transition period and offer explanation and reinforcement of what I want before going straight to threats and inflammatory language..."
I would normally agree but what she asked are not hard things to need a transition period. Move on friday, ok, what is so hard about that? If he couldnt then how hard is it to send a quick email explaining? Writing on the white board,does he write most of the time but not always or never? It sounded like never to me because he doesnt think he should. He is a young guy, not an industry veteran who gas been working one way for 50 years to resist change but his actions to me seem nothing but resisting.
Maybe i am looking at it differently because i dont work for the government. His attitude wouldnt last long in the private sector in my opinion. He sounds like one of those people who sue everyone for looking at him wrong.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 21:45:17 GMT -5
I have recognized for some time the real opportunities are with the Department of Energy, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, or the Navy.
Just my sense of things, but maybe it might be beneficial to skip the Navy? It sounds kind of like your work style doesn't mesh well with strict hierarchies/military personalities, based on what you've posted about your previous job and on this thread. DH is moving out of an office into a cube at his boss' request, and we'll be moving to another state soon. His boss wants to have everyone at a certain level in one building. DH is getting a promotion and substantial raise, but he is giving up a private office with windows in a branch office for a cube at corporate, because tactically his boss wants everyone vital to his department close at hand. Some bosses like being able to see and easily talk to people working under them, even if they're sent overseas alone for months at a time. Our experience in strict hierarchies is that everyone is independent adults as long as the rules are quickly complied with, even if they're cumbersome. Putting things off or not doing things is generally a good way to raise ire, unless a reason is spoken and then approved of. Smaller stuff seems like the testing ground, to sound out compliance. If someone can't follow tiny annoying things, it's harder to trust with bigger things. Just a few thoughts from our experiences, as always, take with a dose of salt.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 18, 2014 21:48:45 GMT -5
...:::"I think if she prefers to run her department differently than the one before she has a right to do so.":::...
Yes, she does. She has the title to force him to do all the petty, ticky-tacky micromanaging nonsense her insecure heart desires. She's the boss -- something I bet she tells herself every morning.
But there ARE consequences for that kind of treatment -- mainly that people who have options will leave because they don't have to put up with that garbage.
...:::"...she asked for 2 very simple things and neither got done/or timely...":::...
She issued two self-assuring commands; both of which were more about stroking her ego than the good of the agency. Neither got done in a timely manner because actual IMPORTANT work took priority. So far, it seems that Pheonix's case proved itself.
...:::"Phoenix, I cannot believe you are turning this into a confrontation. No, I can, because you guys always have to be hierarchical and you want to be "alpha".":::...
That seems kind like kind of a straw-grasp. The new supervisor is a female and a minority; and (unfortunately) likely believes she has to work extra hard to prove she belongs. That "benefit of the doubt" crap goes both ways. They both have made mistakes, and both "could" agree to start fresh. If she, however, pursues the letter to file, then she is saying a lot about how she will treat him going forward.
...:::"With the attitude you have, you should never ever leave the government sector because you would not last in the private sector.":::...
Please... If the shareholders of a company found out that the reason the company failed a critical safety test was because the responsible technician was kept too busy updating his supervisors white board instead of doing his job, that supervisor would be shown the door.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on May 18, 2014 21:56:49 GMT -5
...:::"I think if she prefers to run her department differently than the one before she has a right to do so.":::... Yes, she does. She has the title to force him to do all the petty, ticky-tacky micromanaging nonsense her insecure heart desires. She's the boss -- something I bet she tells herself every morning. But there ARE consequences for that kind of treatment -- mainly that people who have options will leave because they don't have to put up with that garbage. ...:::"...she asked for 2 very simple things and neither got done/or timely...":::... She issued two self-assuring commands; both of which were more about stroking her ego than the good of the agency. Neither got done in a timely manner because actual IMPORTANT work took priority. So far, it seems that Pheonix's case proved itself. ...:::"Phoenix, I cannot believe you are turning this into a confrontation. No, I can, because you guys always have to be hierarchical and you want to be "alpha".":::... That seems kind like kind of a straw-grasp. The new supervisor is a female and a minority; and (unfortunately) likely believes she has to work extra hard to prove she belongs. That "benefit of the doubt" crap goes both ways. They both have made mistakes, and both "could" agree to start fresh. If she, however, pursues the letter to file, then she is saying a lot about how she will treat him going forward. ...:::"With the attitude you have, you should never ever leave the government sector because you would not last in the private sector.":::... Please... If the shareholders of a company found out that the reason the company failed a critical safety test was because the responsible technician was kept too busy updating his supervisors white board instead of doing his job, that supervisor would be shown the door. I am concerned you are reinforcing an outlook that could get phoenix in more trouble. Looking down on the boss and questioning her directions is not the way to develop a peaceful work environment with her.
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