KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on May 6, 2014 7:58:19 GMT -5
I need the help of a couple of posters on here - I think Mich and Drama come to mind specifically due to their work areas. Youngest stepdaughter is at the age the pediatrician is recommending vaccinating for HPV. What I need is layman terms and/or sites to read regarding the following arguments: - How much time/research is put into a vaccination before it is released to the public?
- How are long term side effects determined and/or anticipated and how could they possibly know?
- When new vaccines are released and it is determined 1 in (however many) have the potential risk of XX side effect - how is that determined?
Based on my pediatrician's recommendation and explanation - I'm all for the vaccination. DH doesn't know enough about it to make a determination one way or the other. Exwife is 100% angrily against it.
I told DH that it doesn't matter to me if she is vaccinated as it is his daughter, but I also told him to do his own research and make up his own mind, not just take the word of his exwife (daughter lives with us). DH admits that ex's reasons aren't rational, but is hesitant to make her mad by going against her. For better or worse, I told him that was a cowardly reason to decide not to vaccinate his child.
Her rational: children are dying from vaccination because she's heard that 32 kids have died. If DH had SD vaccinated, then he's basically risking her life.
DH finally did a little research last night. His concern was: what is the long-term consequences (10 years+) of getting a fairly new vaccination?
I won't be back to the thread until later tonight, but I really appreciate the help and responses! Try not to have too much fun with this thread while I'm gone!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 8:04:46 GMT -5
Thank you for starting this thread, KaraBoo! My DD is turning 9 this year and DH and I just started talking about whether or not to vaccinate her when she is 11. I will be interested in hearing what they have to say as well.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 6, 2014 8:30:53 GMT -5
The 32 deaths are part of the latest CDC study on the vaccination. To characterize these 32 as deaths caused by the vaccination would not be accurate, however. Here's a little more data from the study:
•Of the 12,424 reports of adverse events, 772 (6% of all reports) described serious adverse events, including 32 reports of deaths. •The 32 death reports were reviewed and there was no common pattern to the deaths that would suggest they were caused by the vaccine. In cases where there was an autopsy, death certificate, or medical records, the cause of death could be explained by factors other than the vaccine. Some causes of death determined to date include diabetes, viral illness, illicit drug use, and heart failure. •There were two reports of unusual neurological illness (per autopsy, probable variants of Amytrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) often referred to as “Lou Gehrig's Disease”) that resulted in the death of two young females. There is no current evidence suggesting that the HPV vaccine caused these illnesses, but researchers from several highly regarded academic centers are studying the cases. •There was increased reporting of syncope and pulmonary emboli (blood clots of the lungs) compared with what has been found for other vaccines given to females of the same age. Of the people who had blood clots 90% had a known risk factor for blood clots, such as taking oral contraceptives (birth control pills). VAERS reports cannot prove the vaccine caused the adverse event in women with these risk factors. However, this finding needs further investigation.
www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html
So my layman's take on this would be that 32 girls died within a short time after getting the HPV vaccination. Of the 32 deaths, there was no common cause of death (which you'd expect if the vaccination was causing it) and also some of them had other causes of death that were unrelated to the vaccination. As a parent, I'd be looking at the blood clot issue as more potentially vaccine related and possible than death.
Oh, and the 32 were out of 57 million doses of the vaccine administered during that time.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 6, 2014 8:34:32 GMT -5
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 6, 2014 8:45:16 GMT -5
I admit, this vaccine and the chicken pox ones are the 2 that I have issues with. My kids got the chicken pox vaccines anyway because I had no real reason not to. My emotional response of "but I didn't get one, had chicken pox as an infant and was fine" was countered (and outweighed) by my DH's response of "I didn't get one, had chicken pox in 6th grade and I was really sick" so thanks for posting this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 8:47:36 GMT -5
Exactly! I don't have any good reason not to get her (and DS too, actually) other than I didn't get it and I am fine. Knowledge is power!
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on May 6, 2014 8:47:43 GMT -5
I can't imagine NOT giving your daughter this vaccine. Can you imagine your beloved daughter developing cervical cancer and dying while in her 30s with young children? That happens and it is entirely preventable.
I remember hearing some arguments about parents not wanting to give their daughters this vaccine since HPV is a sexually transmitted disease and, since their daughters were obviously going to remain chaste until marriage, it was unnecessary. A fine idea if you lock her up and keep an eye on her 24/7. She may be pure as the driven snow, but, in today's real world, rape happens to even the best girls, and to compound the results of rape with the chance of cervical cancer down the road is just blatantly irresponsible.
So, be a responsible adult and make sure that the daughter is immunized. You may be saving her life.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 8:48:58 GMT -5
I can't imagine NOT giving your daughter this vaccine. Can you imagine your beloved daughter developing cervical cancer and dying while in her 30s with young children? That happens and it is entirely preventable. I remember hearing some arguments about parents not wanting to give their daughters this vaccine since HPV is a sexually transmitted disease and, since their daughters were obviously going to remain chaste until marriage, it was unnecessary. A fine idea if you lock her up and keep an eye on her 24/7. She may be pure as the driven snow, but, in today's real world, rape happens to even the best girls, and to compound the results of rape with the chance of cervical cancer down the road is just blatantly irresponsible. So, be a responsible adult and make sure that the daughter is immunized. You may be saving her life. I am trying not to comment on your analogy, but let's just say that not every sexually active girl ends up with HPV and leave it at that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 8:51:09 GMT -5
I think I'll use this as an educational tool in the coming year to let the kids learn how to research this themselves, analyze the data and let them make their own decisions on it.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 6, 2014 8:52:33 GMT -5
Exactly! I don't have any good reason not to get her (and DS too, actually) other than I didn't get it and I am fine. Knowledge is power! Plus my kids are 4.5 and 6. I have time before we need to decide - and for us, based on our current history of vaccination, we'll default to saying "yes" to all vaccines. We're not the world's best parents in doing vaccination research. Hell, we're not even close.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 6, 2014 8:54:51 GMT -5
I am not by any means a medical professional. I have a 16 yo daughter and a 12 yo daughter. They have both been vaccinated for the HPV.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on May 6, 2014 8:58:02 GMT -5
I admit, this vaccine and the chicken pox ones are the 2 that I have issues with. My kids got the chicken pox vaccines anyway because I had no real reason not to. My emotional response of "but I didn't get one, had chicken pox as an infant and was fine" was countered (and outweighed) by my DH's response of "I didn't get one, had chicken pox in 6th grade and I was really sick" so thanks for posting this. Chickenpox can be deadly. Not as much in the US, but kids all over the world die from it every year. Also if you don't have it as a kid or are immunized for it and contract it as an adult, being in the US offers little protection. It can cause sterility along with brain swelling and death. Knowing what I know, I would not hestate to vaccinate a child with a healthy immune system
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milee
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Post by milee on May 6, 2014 9:01:16 GMT -5
I remember hearing some arguments about parents not wanting to give their daughters this vaccine since HPV is a sexually transmitted disease and, since their daughters were obviously going to remain chaste until marriage, it was unnecessary. A fine idea if you lock her up and keep an eye on her 24/7. As the mom of boys, I've also wondered how this is supposed to work unless both partners were virgins at marriage (not impossible, but rare in today's society.) Only one of my boys is old enough for the Guardasil vaccination, and I had him vaccinated. Not really because of the very miniscule possibility that it might prevent penile or oral cancer for him, but because IMHO preventing cervical cancer in women isn't just a "women's issue". He says he'd like to have sex with a girl one day (funny conversation), so as a mom, I want to teach him that he should also care and be responsible for the health implications of that sexual activity for both his body and the body of his partner.
I really want my boys to love and care for their partners and part of loving and caring is doing your part to keep the other person safe and healthy. If vaccinating the boys helps prevent this health issue in girls, then boys who want to keep their loved ones safe and healthy should get the vaccinations, too.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 6, 2014 9:05:09 GMT -5
These aren't layman's terms but these are peer reviewed journal articles on PubMed about the safety of the HPV vaccination www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedHere are studies on the side effects www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=hpv+vaccine+side+effectsYou can search for whatever you want, there is probably at least one article on the subject you are searching for. This is where I got for my information. I do not rely on Google because anybody can post whatever they please on the web. There are also a shit ton of shady "journals" out there that even experienced PIs can fall for. In order for it to be on PubMed it has to be legitimate research published in a legitimate peer reviewed journal. You don't have to slog thru the entire article if you don't want, you can skip to the discussion which is a sum of up the study/results/future projects etc. You should be able to understand the discussion. Based on this information I'm getting Gwen the HPV vaccination. The problem with HPV is that it's often asymptomatic, especially in men and right now there isn't a good test out there for males. So she's taking her chances. Research shows that HPV doesn't just cause cervical cancer, it can also cause rectal cancer and some oral cancers. So even if your child doesn't have intercourse they can still be at risk. Lots of kids think they are being "safe" as long as penis doesn't meet vagina.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:05:16 GMT -5
I actually am not as worried about cervical cancer. In this country we do have preventative medicine which makes it very rare in the US. That said, HPV has also been implicated in the rise of throat and mouth cancers and other complications with fertility, etc.
The vaccine is only some HPV strains however.
I also worry about unintended consequences. Kind of how we are in danger currently of a post antibiotic world.
Or. Chicken pox can kill some, but for most it isn't painful. Shingles on the other hand is very painful, and there has been about a 40% increase in shingles since we started using the chicken pox vaccine...
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 6, 2014 9:06:22 GMT -5
milee, I'd heard somewhere that there's a push being started to get boys vaccinated for this too. As I said, I have a lousy track record of researching vaccinations so I have no idea where, when or why I think I heard this.
To clarify, I trust the CDC and my children's doctor (she's mine too) and I believe in vaccinating. So my kids are current on all vaccinations. We've got healthy immune systems so we need to be part of the herd immunity for those who don't have healthy immune systems.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:07:36 GMT -5
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 6, 2014 9:09:15 GMT -5
We have to deal with this with DS soon.
I don't know, to be honest.
We can teach our kids to have protected sex until they are blue in the face. But the reality is they may be in situations where they may be exposed where it's beyond their control/knowledge (cheating spouse, rape).
My only issue is that according to the CDC, there are 40 different types of HPV, but gardisil only covers the 4 most common types. So, it's not an automatic thing that if my kids get the shots, that they will NEVER get HPV. It means they will never get the most common types..
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busymom
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Post by busymom on May 6, 2014 9:09:36 GMT -5
My DD is in college now, & we decided together NOT to get this vaccination. My kid's pediatrician said there's a false sense of security out there that this prevents ALL types of "female" cancer, and it simply doesn't protect from all of the infections out there, just some of them. I wouldn't tell another parent not to get it, but just go in with your eyes open that it won't prevent all types of cancer. But, yes, I let my daughter have a say in this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:10:56 GMT -5
I can't imagine NOT giving your daughter this vaccine. Can you imagine your beloved daughter developing cervical cancer and dying while in her 30s with young children? That happens and it is entirely preventable. I remember hearing some arguments about parents not wanting to give their daughters this vaccine since HPV is a sexually transmitted disease and, since their daughters were obviously going to remain chaste until marriage, it was unnecessary. A fine idea if you lock her up and keep an eye on her 24/7. She may be pure as the driven snow, but, in today's real world, rape happens to even the best girls, and to compound the results of rape with the chance of cervical cancer down the road is just blatantly irresponsible. So, be a responsible adult and make sure that the daughter is immunized. You may be saving her life. I am trying not to comment on your analogy, but let's just say that not every sexually active girl ends up with HPV and leave it at that. and not all HPV causes cancer. the vaccine only protects against the 4 most common strains of HPV. I'm not anti-vaccine, however, I am anti-non-essential vaccines (i.e., I would never consider skipping the polio vaccine). Yes, it is possible that her DD could get a strain of HPV that turns into cancer that kills her, however, it is also possible that she could have an adverse reaction to the vaccine and die.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:11:22 GMT -5
That is true too... They have to know that its not total protection from STD.. not even from HPV. It can't be like putting on sunscreen and then spending 10 hours in the sun each day... We can't be lulled into a false sense of security.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 6, 2014 9:11:36 GMT -5
I am asking a question as I do not know.
Which percentage is greater: the percentage of those who had adverse medical affects from the Gardasil shot or the number of new cases each year of cervical cancer?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 6, 2014 9:11:46 GMT -5
Approach it this way....
Once you become sexually active, just about everyone gets HPV. There are around 8-10 strains (the last paper I read on this was awhile back, so the details are fairly sketchy) that you can get, but a couple of the strains are those associated with cervical cancer.
Your daughter's risk of getting infected with one of those few strains ithat does cause cancer is waaaay greater (because without, she will be infected) than the risk of vaccination.
The data from this vaccine is very good. I heard a lecture by one of its developers and this vaccine is different than most. I wantto say it is one of the first vaccines that is entirely 'man made', whereas most vaccines are dead or attenuated (weakened) microbes.
Sigh...I've got to have this discussion with my sister too for my nieces. 2 of her daughters are reaching the age, and she is convinced that they will be virgins until they marry. They may very well be, but males harbor HPV too and they will still get infected.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 6, 2014 9:12:48 GMT -5
milee, I'd heard somewhere that there's a push being started to get boys vaccinated for this too. As I said, I have a lousy track record of researching vaccinations so I have no idea where, when or why I think I heard this. Call me cynical, but I think the only reason the HPV vaccination is only mandated for girls is because men don't have a cervix and view this as a women's issue only. Trust me, if there were some relatively rare but deadly disease for which women were only carriers but the disease caused a painful death in men, the mandated vaccinations for that disease would include men, women, children and the family dog.
Kind of like how the test for breast cancer - mammogram - involves a humiliating, painful test where the girls are clamped and squished between glass in multiple positions? Although I've never had one, my guess is that the screening for testicular cancer does not involve clamping the boys between glass...
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 6, 2014 9:13:21 GMT -5
I was also looking online, and it looks like you can get the shot up until 26. They just recommend the shot early before you are sexually active. I'm also wondering why 11-12, though. That doesn't give you much time if kids are active at age 12 (and they are in my parts...) I would think it would be better to immunize the kids before they reach double digits in age to be assured they are not sexually active..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:14:32 GMT -5
But cervical cancer if very rare in the US because of our preventative medicine. In that way its like circumcision to me. If that was the only concern, I'd say no way.
So, are the 4 HPV strains ONLY the ones that are more likely to result in cervical cancer? Or they the ones also associated with other cancers, like oral cancers? I don't know that...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:14:37 GMT -5
So I guess I need to amend my sentence to "not all sexually active people get the strain of HPV that causes cervical cancer"?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 6, 2014 9:18:10 GMT -5
I am asking a question as I do not know. Which percentage is greater: the percentage of those who had adverse medical affects from the Gardasil shot or the number of new cases each year of cervical cancer? You have to ask further and say the number of new cases of cancer that the shot couldn't prevent. It's not just the number of new cases of cervical cancer every year Apparently the CDC does not keep track of whether or now how many new cancer patients actually have HPV. They just assume if you have cervical cancer, you MUST have HPV then. My DH's cousin had some irregular cells on her cervix, which could lead to cancer. I didn't assume that she had an STD...
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 9:21:42 GMT -5
Oh, I pretty much assume that if you have precancerous cells removed that you had HPV ... almost everyone does. But not everyone develops complications of having it.
But most precancerous cervical cells ARE removed before they become cancerous.
From the CDC
Cervical Cancer Statistics
Cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of cancer death for women in the United States. However, in the past 40 years, the number of cases of cervical cancer and the number of deaths from cervical cancer have decreased significantly. This decline largely is the result of many women getting regular Pap tests, which can find cervical precancer before it turns into cancer.1 For more information, visit HPV-Associated Cervical Cancer Rates by Race and Ethnicity.
In 2010 (the most recent year numbers are available)— •11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer.*2 •3,939 women in the United States died from cervical cancer.*2
*Incidence counts cover about 97% of the U.S. population; death counts cover about 100% of the U.S. population. Use caution when comparing incidence and death counts.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on May 6, 2014 9:22:37 GMT -5
My daughter was 15 when the HPV vaccine came out, it wasn't all that available and she got the first shot at 17. I'm pretty sure she got the second one, and I asked her to get the third but I'm not sure she remembered. My boys are 19 and 21 now, it wasn't recommended for boys when they were younger, maybe they should get them.
My kids did not get the chicken pox vaccine because they all had chicken pox right before the vaccine came out. I used to work for the company that makes the vaccine, so I heard for years about it, hoping I could get it for my kids, but they missed it by a few months. They were very young when they had chicken pox (1, 3 and 4) so it was pretty mild.
And actually that just reminded my that my DS19 is transferring to a school that requires the chicken pox vaccine, and he didn't get the vaccine because he had chicken pox. I never took him to the doctor when he had it, and now he may have to get the shot (since it is easier than proving you had chicken pox)
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