Self defense or murder?

[Shooby]

He supposedly parked his car several blocks away to give the illusion he wasn't home.

[truthbound]

Apr 23, 2014 1:05:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Really- explain that.  What am I?

Only thing clear is that his little murder scheme just fell apart.  He took bulbs out to improve his plan and shot people at distances that plainly show he was killing them and not protecting himself.

This has not a single fucking thing to do with gun rights so before you call me a gun grabber be sure I probably have more than you.  But you have a point- it is always clear in these thread when someone has no freaking idea what is being discussed.  Want to argue gun rights start a thread on it- this has exactly NOTHING to do with it.

So do that please and I won't out you as some third grader.

Speaking of third graders. If I had been talking to you there might have been a point in that rant. If you want to address what is being discussed, we are quite clear on it. You have been pasting the story over and over for the last 7 pages.

[Shooby]

EVT - You seem to think there are NO justifiable cases of self defense. Sorry but there are. People have a right to protect themselves and their own lives and property. So, if it is truly self defense, that isn't murder.
However, I do agree there are cases where lethal defense is not justified. And, if so , those cases should be prosecuted vigorously because if you are going to kill someone, you better be right.

[zibazinski]

You hate to wish karma on anyone, but it always seems like those who live in such a Rosie world ought to realize that bad can happen to them or theirs. Just because they "wish it away" doesn't mean nothing bad will ever happen to them. Maybe then they'll see the light of common sense. 

[djAdvocate]

personally, i would rather live my life without constantly looking over my shoulder.  if it makes you feel more secure to know that you could kill anyone within firing range in under 2 seconds, bully for you.

[billisonboard]

Apr 24, 2014 18:16:47 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

You hate to wish karma on anyone, ...

[EVT1]

Apr 24, 2014 6:33:46 GMT -5 Shooby said:

EVT - You seem to think there are NO justifiable cases of self defense. Sorry but there are. People have a right to protect themselves and their own lives and property. So, if it is truly self defense, that isn't murder.
However, I do agree there are cases where lethal defense is not justified. And, if so , those cases should be prosecuted vigorously because if you are going to kill someone, you better be right.

No- a few of you think I think that.  There are plenty of cases of justifiable self-defense.  What gets me going is when people support those that killed people when there was no reason for it.

Blame the media if those cases get all of the news- and I just posted a thread a while back about a good shoot by a homeowner as an example of what proper self defense looks like.  What it doesn't look like:

Shooting a carload of kids over loud music, shooting a neighbor over a loud party, shooting a man in line for a pizza that shoves you, shooting someone through a secure front door, going outside to investigate a suspicious stranger and shooting them, shooting someone that threw a bag of popcorn at you, purposely executing a wounded person that is no threat, and of course what started all of this- getting out of a safe vehicle to pursue a suspicious person and shooting them.  Need I go on?  Calling out these murderers in no way affects my stance on justifiable homicide.  Someone breaks in my house at night they might be leaving in a bag- someone creeping around in my yard at night- I'm calling the police and waiting.

[Shooby]

Ok. That seems reasonable.

[Shooby]

In this case, I don't know all the facts, but I believe he simply choose to murder these teens.

[Value Buy]

Damn it.

 EVT has finally posted a thread, where I find myself in total agreement with EVT.

What has happened to me?

[EVT1]

It wasn't you- that guy made it real hard for anyone to support what he did- and it gets worse as the facts come out.

What is scary is I have done things that people get killed for these days- creeping around my GF's house to sneak her out or sneak in, I knocked and yelled quite loudly at the door of my neighbor's apartment because I wasn't paying attention and was at the wrong door and thought my roommate was screwing with me, as a kid I did stupid shit- like looking for beer in open garages with refrigerators- illegal I know but I was an idiot back then- we rolled yards, climbed and spray-painted a water tower, made fake spikes and put them in the road, and other ridiculous stuff.  Don't think any of it deserved the death penalty. 

[Value Buy]

Apr 24, 2014 22:01:22 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

It wasn't you- that guy made it real hard for anyone to support what he did- and it gets worse as the facts come out.

What is scary is I have done things that people get killed for these days- creeping around my GF's house to sneak her out or sneak in, I knocked and yelled quite loudly at the door of my neighbor's apartment because I wasn't paying attention and was at the wrong door and thought my roommate was screwing with me, as a kid I did stupid shit- like looking for beer in open garages with refrigerators- illegal I know but I was an idiot back then- we rolled yards, climbed and spray-painted a water tower, made fake spikes and put them in the road, and other ridiculous stuff.  Don't think any of it deserved the death penalty. 

Thanks. Good to know.

Was afraid I might have turned Democrat, or, horrors, a liberal

There is absolutely no acceptable reason for his actions.

Period.

[Virgil Showlion]

If the two had been dressed up as snow leopards, I could see my way to acquitting the guy.


"Save the leopards! Save the leopards! Fur is mur-der! Fur is mur-der!"

*RAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT-A-TAT* "HAHA HAAAA! DIE, UNCIA-LOVING SCUM!!"

"RUN! He's got an RPG!"

*chunk* *click* *fwwwwoooooooooooooooooooooooshhhhhh* BOOOM! POW! KER-BOOM!

"TAKE THAT, LEP LOVERS! AHA HA HA HA HA!!!!"

"OH NO! NO! HE'S GOT AN APACHE ATTACK CHOPPER!"

*whirrrrrr-rrrrrrrrrrrrr-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!-T!...*

"YES! YES! LET NONE ESCAPE! AHAHAHAHA HA HAHAHAHA!!!!"



...*ahem*... kind of... trailed off there for a while.

But at any rate, as I was saying, let's not judge the guy too harshly before we know all the facts.

[EVT1]

I get a bad rap about guns- and FL as well- because I see stupid and call it out.  There is something in the water I think.  Here is a guy straight out of a Carl Hiaasen novel:



Take a guess what this guy got arrested for:

A) Standing his ground against a girl scout selling cookies
B) Having sex with a pit-bull in his yard
C) Stealing 4 jars of artichokes and a live lobster from Publix

Don't cheat

[Virgil Showlion]

EVT: drop it. You posted the same article before and it was nuked. I'll let your #196 stand, but you are not making it a topic of discussion.

- Virgil (Mod)

[zibazinski]

Sorry. Facts are if they hadn't been robbing his house AGAIN, they'd have not died. They chose POORLY. 

[EVT1]

Apr 24, 2014 23:52:55 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Sorry. Facts are if they hadn't been robbing his house AGAIN, they'd have not died. They chose POORLY. 

Yep- so that's enough for you?  The homeowner is excused for his actions?

So if some kids break into my house via their poor decisions- I can lock them up in my dungeon and torture them, rape them, film it and sell it on the internet right?

They chose POORLY after all- and a video rape beats an execution so what's not to like?  Better yet- we should set traps and start making snuff films- seems there is quite a market for it in the great old USA.

[Virgil Showlion]

So if some kids break into my house via their poor decisions- I can lock them up in my dungeon and torture them, rape them, film it and sell it on the internet right?

If we don't legalize it, it will just go underground. People will do it anyway and the government will lose all the tax revenues from the videos. Just think o...

Wait.

Ah. Sorry.

I accidentally brought out the standard lame drug legalization argument rather than the standard lame rape-and-torture legalization argument.

Getting late.

Goodnight all.

[Tennesseer]

“Will you walk into my parlour?” said the Spider to the Fly,
'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;  
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,   
And I've a many curious things to shew when you are there.”“

Oh no, no,” said the little Fly, “to ask me is in vain, 
For who goes up your winding stair     
-can ne'er come down again.” “

I'm sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high; 
Will you rest upon my little bed?” said the Spider to the Fly.
“There are pretty curtains drawn around; the sheets are fine and thin, 
And if you like to rest awhile, I'll snugly tuck you in!”“

Oh no, no,” said the little Fly,  “for I've often heard it said, 
They never, never wake again, who sleep upon your bed!”....

Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little Fly,
Hearing his wily, flattering words, came slowly flitting by;
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer drew,
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes, and green and purple hue —
Thinking only of her crested head — poor foolish thing!     
At last,

Up jumped the cunning Spider, and fiercely held her fast.
He dragged her up his winding stair, into his dismal den,
Within his little parlour — but she ne'er came out again!

And now dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly flattering words, I pray you ne'er give heed:
Unto an evil counsellor, close heart and ear and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale, of the Spider and the Fly.

-By Mary Howitt, 1829

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2014 0:31:31 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Apr 24, 2014 23:52:55 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Sorry. Facts are if they hadn't been robbing his house AGAIN, they'd have not died. They chose POORLY. 

Yep- so that's enough for you?  The homeowner is excused for his actions?

So if some kids break into my house via their poor decisions- I can lock them up in my dungeon and torture them, rape them, film it and sell it on the internet right?

They chose POORLY after all- and a video rape beats an execution so what's not to like?  Better yet- we should set traps and start making snuff films- seems there is quite a market for it in the great old USA.

There are all kinds of people in this world. Most are sheep, some are wolves, with varying levels in between. You break into a home, you don't know if it's a wolves' home or not. The rest of this thread was about the intelligence level of the wolf after the occurrence.

[billisonboard]

Apr 25, 2014 12:33:20 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

... There are all kinds of people in this world. Most are sheep, some are wolves, with varying levels in between. You break into a home, you don't know if it's a wolves' home or not. The rest of this thread was about the intelligence level of the wolf after the occurrence.

My postings on this thread are not about the intelligence level of "the wolf". Mine are about how far we human beings should allow "the wolf" to stalk his prey before we decide he has gone to far and needs to be penned.

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2014 13:09:19 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 25, 2014 12:33:20 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

... There are all kinds of people in this world. Most are sheep, some are wolves, with varying levels in between. You break into a home, you don't know if it's a wolves' home or not. The rest of this thread was about the intelligence level of the wolf after the occurrence.

My postings on this thread are not about the intelligence level of "the wolf". Mine are about how far we human beings should allow "the wolf" to stalk his prey before we decide he has gone to far and needs to be penned.

I understand that he was in his den and was the one that was stalked. Never poke the big alligator with a stick when swimming in Florida. They're even dumber, but can kill you just as easily.

[billisonboard]

Apr 25, 2014 13:24:44 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

... I understand that he was in his den and was the one that was stalked. ...

He was not being stalked. There is apparently evidence that he went far out of his way to throw others off his scent.

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2014 14:03:47 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 25, 2014 13:24:44 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

... I understand that he was in his den and was the one that was stalked. ...

He was not being stalked. There is apparently evidence that he went far out of his way to throw others off his scent.

Who's home was broken into ? I think kids need to be taught a little common sense these days. Our educational system seems to be sadly lacking in certain respects.

[billisonboard]

Apr 25, 2014 14:12:33 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

... Our educational system seems to be sadly lacking in certain respects.

So its the governments job to teach kids right and wrong?

[billisonboard]

Apr 25, 2014 14:12:33 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Apr 25, 2014 14:03:47 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

He was not being stalked. There is apparently evidence that he went far out of his way to throw others off his scent.

Who's home was broken into ? ...

The fact that the man's house was broken does nothing to suggest that he was being stalked. There seems to be evidence that he went far out of his way to make others believe that he was not home suggests that he was not the target of the break-in. His stuff was the target.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If he did set a trap in hopes of "smoking em out of their hole" he's lucky it didn't backfire in his face. It could have been someone other than addled unarmed teenagers breaking into his home.

If the results had turned the other way nobody would be celebrating him. We'd all be calling him a vigilante wannabe.

The more I read/hear the more I think this guy has some serious screws loose. He isn't a poor defenseless old man who was taken by surprise in his basement.

Still don't think they'll get him on murder. Two of the parties are dead and I think too many people will say the criminals "deserved it" for him to get convicted.

He should be charged with something though, IMO this goes beyond self defense and defense of his property.

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2014 14:20:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 25, 2014 14:12:33 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Who's home was broken into ? ...

The fact that the man's house was broken does nothing to suggest that he was being stalked. There seems to be evidence that he went far out of his way to make others believe that he was not home suggests that he was not the target of the break-in. His stuff was the target.

There are all kinds of people in this world, most are sheep, some are wolves. Sometimes in a democratic system, the sheep develop a sense of false bravado due to the number of "votes" they have. They teach this to their young. Unfortunately, the wolves remain. When these young uninformed lambs try to take something from the wolves den, they meet an untimely end. Wolves aren't necessarily smart, nor can they always remember look ahead to their own self preservation. There will always be levels in the food chain. The sheep eat grass and go baaa a lot. The wolves howl and kill. The world moves on.

[billisonboard]

Apr 25, 2014 14:42:11 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Apr 25, 2014 14:20:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

The fact that the man's house was broken does nothing to suggest that he was being stalked. There seems to be evidence that he went far out of his way to make others believe that he was not home suggests that he was not the target of the break-in. His stuff was the target.

There are all kinds of people in this world, most are sheep, some are wolves. Sometimes in a democratic system, the sheep develop a sense of false bravado due to the number of "votes" they have. They teach this to their young. Unfortunately, the wolves remain. When these young uninformed lambs try to take something from the wolves den, they meet an untimely end. Wolves aren't necessarily smart, nor can they always remember look ahead to their own self preservation. There will always be levels in the food chain. The sheep eat grass and go baaa a lot. The wolves howl and kill. The world moves on.

You missed the part where human beings, at times, step in and do something about a wolf who kills in a situation in which it is deemed unacceptable.

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2014 14:51:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 25, 2014 14:42:11 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

There are all kinds of people in this world, most are sheep, some are wolves. Sometimes in a democratic system, the sheep develop a sense of false bravado due to the number of "votes" they have. They teach this to their young. Unfortunately, the wolves remain. When these young uninformed lambs try to take something from the wolves den, they meet an untimely end. Wolves aren't necessarily smart, nor can they always remember look ahead to their own self preservation. There will always be levels in the food chain. The sheep eat grass and go baaa a lot. The wolves howl and kill. The world moves on.

You missed the part where human beings, at times, step in and do something about a wolf who kills in a situation in which it is deemed unacceptable.

All wolves are unacceptable to sheep. There are always more wolves, it's part of what we are. The problem is the sheep have to become wolflike to handle the wolves, creating more. (I for one, wouldn't want to take the side of the argument that wants to socialize the critters that reside at the top of the food chain.)