Self defense or murder?

[EVT1]

And before anyone gives me shit- when someone breaks into someone's house they are on notice that it may not end well for them.  I think it is perfectly fine to make sure society understands that you break into someone's house at your peril.

However- there is a limit to this- in this case an execution:

news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-minn-homeowner-lay-wait-teens-163213122.html

     Byron Smith, 65, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of 17-year-old Nick Brady and 18-year-old Haile Kifer on Thanksgiving Day in 2012. The killings rocked the small central Minnesota town of about 8,000 and stirred debate about how far a person can go in defending their home

This was discussed before here- but wow- had no idea it was this bad:

     As Brady descended the basement steps, Smith shot him in the chest, then in the back while Brady fell, Wartner said. Smith fired a final shot into Brady's head, the bullet passing through Brady's hand, Wartner said.

     Smith put Brady's body on a tarp, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his Mini-14 rifle and sat down again, the prosecutor said. A few minutes later, Kifer walked down the stairs and Smith shot her, Wartner said. He tried another shot, but his rifle jammed, Wartner said, and Smith told police he believed Kifer laughed at him.

     "He was angry," Wartner said. "So he pulled out his revolver and he shot her twice in the head, once in the left eye and once behind the left ear."

     Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he pulled out his revolver for what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head," the assistant prosecutor said.

One sick individual- yet he has solid support- makes me really sad so many in this country are so bloodthirsty.

[Green Eyed Lady]

A person breaks into my house, I'm not giving them a chance to get back up.  If that's bloodthirsty, I guess I'm guilty.   What do you suppose those two criminals would have done to him had they happened upon him in the middle of the night when he was unprotected?  Made him a cup of coffee?

[resolution]

I doubt he will be acquitted after his description of a clean finishing shot to the girl's head, but it was a risk she was taking by burglarizing his home. I would side with the homeowner if I were in the jury, even though the description is horrifying.

[EVT1]

Apr 21, 2014 22:07:23 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

A person breaks into my house, I'm not giving them a chance to get back up.  If that's bloodthirsty, I guess I'm guilty.   What do you suppose those two criminals would have done to him had they happened upon him in the middle of the night when he was unprotected?  Made him a cup of coffee?

Um- in this case they probably would have ran out of the house when they saw him- they were into stealing prescription drugs via burglary at worst- not armed home invasions or robbery.  But OK- if you think you could shoot someone dying on the floor.....or worse drag their body and them shoot them again....
 

[Green Eyed Lady]

You are right.  I couldn't drag their body. 


I'm not big enough.

[EVT1]

Apr 21, 2014 22:12:44 GMT -5 resolution said:

I doubt he will be acquitted after his description of a clean finishing shot to the girl's head, but it was a risk she was taking by burglarizing his home. I would side with the homeowner if I were in the jury, even though the description is horrifying.

Why would you side with the homeowner when your common sense is telling you his reasoning is not going to fly?

And I qualified this post- when someone breaks into a home they assume the risk- but how far are we going to go with this?  Someone comes through a window and you shoot them dead-OK.  But dragging a wounded person incapable of being a threat and shooting them execution style?  Fuck this guy- he needs to spend the rest of his life in jail.

Could you do what he did?  I couldn't- and that makes his actions quite unreasonable.  Very few people could- there may be a loud group that claim they could but if it came down to putting a gun against the temple of a defenseless  17yo girl and pulling the trigger only a small sick group could actually do it.  They do not belong in society.

[EVT1]

     "telling authorities he finished off one teen with a shot under her chin because a .22-caliber “doesn’t go through bone very well,” according to an audiotaped interview played in court Monday."

Sick fuck.

minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/04/21/trial-begins-for-man-accused-of-murdering-2-teens/

     Assistant Washington County Attorney Brent Wartner told jurors that Smith thought a neighbor girl had been breaking into his home. On that day, he moved his truck away from his house, sat in his basement “and he waited,” Wartner said.

     “He’s down in the basement, in a chair, tucked between two bookcases at the bottom of the stairs. He said he was down there reading a book … with his Mini-14, a .22-caliber revolver, some energy bars and a bottle of water,” Wartner said.

     Smith told authorities he saw Brady begin descending the basement steps, then fired once Brady’s hips came into view. Brady fell.

     “He’s looking, facing up at me, and I shoot him in the face. I want him dead,” Smith told investigators.

     “I just pulled out the 22 and I shot her,” he told authorities. He said he then pulled her into the workshop, but she was still gasping, so “I did a good, clean finishing shot and she gave out the death twitch.”

     He said he didn’t call police because the teens were already dead and “just cause my Thanksgiving is screwed up I don’t need to screw up yours.” The next day, he asked a neighbor to call police.


Sick fuck.

I have no doubt he is going to jail for it- what bothers me again is the amount of people that defend his actions. How is it defensible?

[Green Eyed Lady]

EVT?  I didn't see from the story that the guy is a doctor.  He wouldn't know whether they were dead, dying, or playing opossum, getting ready to get up and shoot him.  He made sure that wasn't going to happen.  Maybe you've never been afraid.  I have.  I will not be victimized.  Those who "do not belong in society" are those who sit there on Monday morning, yelling and screaming about what plays should have been called on Sunday afternoon.  It's easy to judge after the fact.  You weren't there.  You don't know if those kids would have run or not.  Neither did he.  You want to rail on and on about the injustice of it all...go ahead.  I'm heartbroken that yet two more kids are lost to drugs.  But I can't work up a mad-on at the 65 year old man they tried to victimize.

[Tennesseer]

Here is the first thread we had on this shooting case.  From November 27, 2012:

When self defense becomes murder

[EVT1]

Apr 21, 2014 22:40:46 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Here is the first thread we had on this shooting case.  From November 27, 2012:

When self defense becomes murder

Good call TN- my thread originally I guess   I hope I am at least consistent.

I should make it an update.

BTW the asshole in GA that saw the mysterious man in the back yard- the alzheimers patient- was not charged.  Apparently it is OK to confront anyone in your yard and shoot them if they do not 'comply with commands'. 

What this means is you can put yourself in a dangerous position at will and shoot your way out of it- just like Zimmerman did.  It is a sorry shitty situation- so not much left here- arm yourself.  Be prepared to kill your neighbor or an innocent person in your yard.  It is an NRA paradise.  Everyone around you is a potential criminal- dangerous country we live in- just be sure when you are shitting yourself with fear you have a subscription to 'home defense' magazine and 'tactical combat' so you can be ready for the unavoidable.

[EVT1]

 

[Tennesseer]

EVT-I knew the story sounded familiar when I read about the case earlier today.  I remember visiting the case on the boards at least from last year.

[EVT1]

He's going down no doubt- this isn't Florida.  It is the people that back his actions that scare me.

He's a SICK FUCK.

 And if I know gun owners- the fact that these are young white people is going to come up.  Two black kids break in- no problem, he could drag them across the property and tie them to a truck hitch and go driving.  But white teenagers- well, he will have to explain himself.

[resolution]

Apr 21, 2014 22:28:25 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Apr 21, 2014 22:12:44 GMT -5 resolution said:

I doubt he will be acquitted after his description of a clean finishing shot to the girl's head, but it was a risk she was taking by burglarizing his home. I would side with the homeowner if I were in the jury, even though the description is horrifying.

Why would you side with the homeowner when your common sense is telling you his reasoning is not going to fly?

And I qualified this post- when someone breaks into a home they assume the risk- but how far are we going to go with this?  Someone comes through a window and you shoot them dead-OK.  But dragging a wounded person incapable of being a threat and shooting them execution style?  Fuck this guy- he needs to spend the rest of his life in jail.

Could you do what he did?  I couldn't- and that makes his actions quite unreasonable.  Very few people could- there may be a loud group that claim they could but if it came down to putting a gun against the temple of a defenseless  17yo girl and pulling the trigger only a small sick group could actually do it.  They do not belong in society.

I could never do what he did, I would probably hesitate too long for the first shot and have the gun taken away and used against me, which is why I got rid of it and got a taser instead. At least I know I wouldn't hesitate to use a taser.

But if someone has broken into your house then you can use deadly force to defend yourself. I would have a different answer if he shot them in the back after they left.

[Spellbound454]

In Britain we have something which includes the use of reasonable force

You may get away with shooting them....if it were in defence of yourself or family.....and if you held a legal gun.

but if they were unarmed.....you would be in trouble. Burglary is not a capital offence.

This isn't self defence...its execution style murder....and the guy would receive a life sentence without a shadow of doubt.

[Shooby]

What he did was overkill. And they were going down into the basement? Was he hiding in the basement? Could he have exited the basement? Yes, I know that you don't have to leave your house but I think fleeing and calling the Police should be your first instinct and thought. So they steal your TV, so what? You have insurance. Shooting multiple times, dragging a body and lying in wait for the other person seems particularly overzealous. I am not sure this is just a simple case of self defense. Yes, in the one case where the drunk guy was trying to open the door, I supported the homeowner opening fire. This case, I would have to hear more. But he does sound bloodthirsty and overzealous in my opinion. Not that it matters now, they are dead either way.

[Virgil Showlion]

FWIW, I would convict on a murder charge.

[jkapp]

Apr 21, 2014 22:40:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

EVT?  I didn't see from the story that the guy is a doctor.  He wouldn't know whether they were dead, dying, or playing opossum, getting ready to get up and shoot him.  He made sure that wasn't going to happen.  Maybe you've never been afraid.  I have.  I will not be victimized.  Those who "do not belong in society" are those who sit there on Monday morning, yelling and screaming about what plays should have been called on Sunday afternoon.  It's easy to judge after the fact.  You weren't there.  You don't know if those kids would have run or not.  Neither did he.  You want to rail on and on about the injustice of it all...go ahead.  I'm heartbroken that yet two more kids are lost to drugs.  But I can't work up a mad-on at the 65 year old man they tried to victimize.

Very true...how many stories have started with bombed-out druggies breaking into homes and killing the occupants in their deranged drugged out minds?  People can say what they would have done in the same situation, or felt the owner went overboard, but they have no idea what the situation was really like. 

The thing that stands out to me is that the girl went down into the basement after hearing three gunshots...so how bombed out was she?  OR, did she think her boyfriend had done the shooting and was going down there to mutilate the corpse?

You see, anyone can make up what they think might have been going through other people's minds in that basement...

[jkapp]

Apr 21, 2014 23:01:39 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

 

Yeah, Bonnie and Clyde were a cute couple too...

[EVT1]

Apr 22, 2014 9:23:55 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Apr 21, 2014 22:40:28 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Well there is audio of it- and he admitted to executing them-so there is that.....

     Smith had set up surveillance and was waiting in his basement with loaded weapons and an audio recorder running for six hours before, during and after the shootings, Wartner highlighted in his opening statement.

      Wartner said the recording will show evidence of a series of shots to each victim and testimony will show that Smith told law enforcement that he fired a “good clean finishing shot” into Kifer’s head when he heard her gasp.

      Smith had dragged both teenagers’ bodies into a basement workshop and waited 24 hours before calling a neighbor the next day. The neighbor then called authorities.

Didn't even call the cops and piled the bodies in a corner- what a hero.  

Last I checked a coup de grace is not legal either.


 

[Green Eyed Lady]

I don't think anybody here called him a "hero".  I certainly didn't.  Just because you are all riled up doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.  You are hell-bent on letting your heart bleed buckets for criminals.  Go ahead.  I'll save my sympathy for those they victimize. 

Obviously, there is stuff in the story that makes me ask questions.  What does a "good clean finishing shot" mean?  Does it mean he actually got off on firing one more shot or does it mean he wanted to make sure she was dead so she couldn't get back up and hurt him?  The jury will decide.  That's why we have trials.  I have confidence in our justice system.  People will hear the whole story and not just bits and pieces like we are getting now.  They will make a decision based on all the facts - not just the rabble-rousing pieces. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Let me see...

2 teenagers (on drugs) vs a 65 year old man. Without a gun, there is a large disparity of force and he did not know that they were not armed. Is he supposed to wait until they brandish a weapon before shooting? A 45 trumps his measly 22 (which is why multiple shots, a 22 is not going to stop someone in a drug induced rage). Hell, a 9 mm won't stop someone.

His home had been broken into multiple times, so I'm not seeing why setting up surveillance is a problem.

Is reading in the basement with a gun and food and drink near you a crime?

And the press releases pictures of wholesome kids who couldn't possibly be on a drug fueled break-in rampage.

[Tennesseer]

Maybe I missed it but neither linked article stated the teens were actively on drugs at the time of their deaths.  Drugs found in their car is not the same as being high on drugs when they were killed.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 22, 2014 12:10:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Maybe I missed it but neither linked article stated the teens were actively on drugs at the time of their deaths.  Drugs found in their car is not the same as being high on drugs when they were killed.

Moot point.  How is the home owner supposed to know that they are NOT on drugs, especially since this was their goal for breaking into the house?

[Deleted]

I think the facts in the case warrant a trial in the same way the Zimmerman case did.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Testimony in the actual trial.  Several "facts" in the OP are expounded upon - like he  didn't just go to the basement and lie in wait.  He was in his "favorite" reading chair, reading a book - as it appears he made a habit of doing.  Guns had been stolen from his house and by his own admission, he thought these may be the same criminals who stole his guns - and he had to assume they may be armed.   Not saying he is telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  I don't know.  But it does at least leave to debate the histrionics in the link posted in the OP.

I don't know how to post a link, but the testimony is on startribune.com.

[justme]

I'm all about being able to defend yourself, justified murder and all that.


But I think this guy went above and beyond defending himself. To those that think he's innocent - would you drag people you just killed into a corner of your house, go on about the rest of your day, and tell the neighbor 24 hours later to call authority? Or would you, once assuring yourself the threat was neutralized, immediately call the police and tell them what was going on.

As for the kill shot, she had already been shot 3 times - TWICE in the head. I would think the odds of her being a threat were very low. Especially since it doesn't sound like she put up a fight when he put the gun under her chin! Really, if you were so scared for your life that you had to use a gun to defend yourself - would YOU walk up close enough to the threat to put a gun under their chin? Instead of just going back up the stairs, locking the door, and calling the police (and possible getting out of the house)?

[mmhmm]

I'd have called the police the minute I heard the window break, personally.  That's not to say I wouldn't have shot someone coming down my basement stairs; however, the police would have been on their way by that time.  Once I'd shot that person in the chest and the back, I doubt I'd have felt the need to go up to him, put another bullet in his face and drag him off.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I don't know, justme.  I wasn't there.  It appears from his testimony that he didn't know how many intruders were upstairs and he sat and waited a good amount of time to make sure no more were coming.  He then said something about the father of the girl and his concern that he may come looking for his daughter.  I don't know about you, but if I was forced to shoot intruders in my home, I might not make the best decisions immediately afterward.  Hell, it would scar me for life - not for just a day.

I do have an issue with him shooting the girl for the last time so she wouldn't suffer.  That part I do get a bit creeped out by.  It still remains that if she hadn't been there in the commission of a crime, none of this would have happened.

If the jury finds him guilty of wrongdoing in the case of the final shot fired at the girl, I could absolutely see that.  As I said, it creeps me out a bit (his reasoning).  Still?  If I'm on the jury, he walks.  That's just how I feel about criminals.  They get what they get when they do what they do..  However, I completely understand other points of view.

[justme]

It his actions surrounding the shooting, and the kill shots to both the boy and the girl, that bother me about it. On their own, without the kill shots, the kids probably would have died. So if he had only done those shots, and then after waiting however long to make sure no one else was there, then called the police. Then no probably, idiot kids.

But, I question why he was in the basement without a phone when he knew there were break ins (though I don't damn him for not having one, but I would think a reasonable person would). The shots after they had been incapacitated. Waiting 24 hours for someone else to call the cops instead of calling them immediately after determining there was no one else in the house. All those make me think he used more the reasonable force, and knew it. Still idiot kids though.

Not entirely sure on the murder charge, depends on what the ME says about the non-kill shots and whether they were fatal. If the non-kill shots weren't fatal - then I see it as murder. If the non-kill shots were fatal - then I'm not sure I'd say it's murder (or at least 1st degree) but I wouldn't want to let him walk either.