Self defense or murder?

[Tennesseer]

Apr 22, 2014 16:30:22 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I always wonder if the do gooders on this board who preach to others ever feel the consequences of their choices? Always kinda hope they do because a different song would be sung for sure. 

Real nice.

[EVT1]

Apr 22, 2014 15:46:19 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

An interesting question, albeit a bit sordid (please bear with the lengthy explanation):


Suppose that instead of lying in wait and repeatedly shooting the two intruders with a .22, Mr. Smith had gone out and bought a .45 (or similarly powerful gun), lain in wait, and dropped each intruder with a single shot to the head.

The difference is obvious: surveillance videos show men shot six times with a .22 revolver who can still run, duck, fight back, etc. (supposedly a .22 slug doesn't even have enough energy to penetrate a human skull unless fired perfectly straight-on, point blank) whereas a .45 will blow a chunk of a man's head clean off or punch a gaping hole in his chest. One is a disabling weapon, the other is a killing weapon.

In this case, many of us are specifically faulting Mr. Smith for executing the two intruders, even after they were disabled. And regardless of whether or not we feel the execution was justified, I think everyone here agrees that Smith's intent was to make absolutely sure the intruders were dead.

But as I've pointed out, another effective way of executing intruders would have been Mr. Smith lying in wait with a more powerful weapon, where one shot would more or less guarantee one kill. Different modus operandum, but the very same results.

Which begs the question for those of us (myself included) who would convict Mr. Smith of murder: If these events had played out with Smith purchasing a .45 and dropping each intruder with a single shot, would we change our verdicts?

If so, why? Clearly in both cases the intent and the outcome are the same: there is no messing around, there is no willingness by Smith to disable rather than kill, and the intruders are shot dead.

If not, would you outlaw "execution weapons" like .45's? After all, the primary difference between a .45 and a .22 is that the .45 is practically guaranteed to kill. It is an "execution weapon" by design. And if using an execution weapon to kill intruders (rather than disable them) is tantamount to murder, then why should such weapons even be legal in the first place?

I get your point but he shot them with a mini-14- plenty deadly and about twice as powerful as a .45ACP.  He only used the .22 after his rifle jammed- I assure you any head shots would have been devastating.  They were probably down and no threat after the first shot to the body.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Dang!  If this group was on the jury, knowing only what we have here, it would be hung for sure!

[EVT1]

Well it is pretty clear that shots to the back, pistol shots at point blank range on someone gasping for air, are not self-defense in nature.  He already admitted to murder- all the jury has to do is follow the law and he's done for.

There was an article about the jury- even has an NRA member on it- the prosecutor said he'd try this case in front of NRA board members and win it.

To recap:

Smith shot him in the chest, then in the back while Brady fell, Wartner said. Smith fired a final shot into Brady's head, the bullet passing through Brady's hand, Wartner said. Smith put Brady's body on a tarp so he wouldn't get blood on his carpet, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his rifle and sat down again, the prosecutor said.

A few minutes later, Kifer walked down the stairs and Smith shot her, Wartner said. His rifle jammed when he tried a second shot, and Smith told police he believed Kifer laughed at him.

"He was angry," Wartner said, then describing that Smith pulled out his revolver and shot her twice in the head, once in the left eye and once behind the left ear.

[EVT1]

 Yikes this is ugly:

     The Morrison County jury heard glass break, movement, then two shots as Brady groans “Oh.” Smith responded with another gunshot, saying, “You’re dead.”

     Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of the tarp is heard, a dragging sound, then heavy breathing. Smith had moved Brady to a workshop in his basement to keep him from staining the basement carpet, he later told authorities.

     The audio continued with the sound of a gun reloading, then more deep breaths and the sound of footsteps — first faintly and then becoming louder. In a quiet, low voice several minutes later, a female mumbles “Nick.”

     Gun shots are heard again, as well as the sound of Haile Kifer falling. Smith quickly says “Oh, sorry about that.”

     “Oh my god! Oh” Kifer screams.

     “You’re dying,” Smith responds amid more gunshots. “Bitch.”

     After more heavy breathing and a dragging sound, Smith says “bitch” once more. After more movement, there is the crack of a gun.

www.startribune.com/local/256189861.html

[billisonboard]

... Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of the tarp is heard, ...

Sounds like he had the tarp at the ready.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Interesting that "prosecutors stopped the tape at that point".  Wonder what else is on that tape? 

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 17:51:25 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Interesting that "prosecutors stopped the tape at that point".  Wonder what else is on that tape? 

If it is helpful to the defense, you know that they will roll it when they get the chance.

[jkapp]

Gee, if only the police had been watching the house, those two kids would be arrested instead of dead...

[Tennesseer]

Apr 22, 2014 18:03:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Gee, if only the police had been watching the house, those two kids would be arrested instead of dead...

Gee, ìf only the police had been called.  But then the shooter did not want to spoil the police's Thanksgiving.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 22, 2014 17:54:22 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 22, 2014 17:51:25 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Interesting that "prosecutors stopped the tape at that point".  Wonder what else is on that tape? 

If it is helpful to the defense, you know that they will roll it when they get the chance.

Absolutely.  So at this point, I won't be too upset about what has been heard so far.  Obviously, the prosecution isn't going to play anything that would help his case.  But then again?  Maybe there isn't anything else.  Will be interesting to find out.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 22, 2014 18:24:24 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 22, 2014 18:03:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Gee, if only the police had been watching the house, those two kids would be arrested instead of dead...

Gee, ìf only the police had been called.  But then the shooter did not want to spoil the police's Thanksgiving.

And the police have been sooo effective, right?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 22, 2014 18:03:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Gee, if only the police had been watching the house, those two kids would be arrested instead of dead...

It's a bit unrealistic to think that the police would be sitting there watching one house.  They simply don't have the manpower. 

[Tennesseer]

Apr 22, 2014 18:29:39 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 22, 2014 18:24:24 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Gee, ìf only the police had been called.  But then the shooter did not want to spoil the police's Thanksgiving.

And the police have been sooo effective, right?

Do you know for absolute fact the police would not be effective in this shooter's town?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Since this guy has had drugs stolen from his home twice and he had a good idea who did it, I suspect that the cops had a really good idea who did it too. Someone was sitting on their ass doing nothing.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Court documents from another case show Brady had burglarized Smith's property at least twice in the months before he was killed.

The above is quoted from an article I read earlier today.  I had the passage copied, but I lost the site so I cant go back and find it.  No idea if it's a reliable site or not, but if true, is interesting in and of itself.  If the young man had burglarized Smith's property at last twice in the months before he got shot, why was he even out running the streets?  If this is true, it's obvious the system failed to protect Mr. Smith.  Now they want to put him in jail for protecting himself?

[EVT1]

Apr 22, 2014 17:50:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

... Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of the tarp is heard, ...

Sounds like he had the tarp at the ready.

Oh yeah- he was ready to kill- he was pissed off. 

Personally I  think a hidden security camera or two would have been much cheaper than a defense lawyer.  That's what I would do if I had a couple burglaries- especially if I was confident that they would do it again and had an idea who it was.  Not like they were pros.

I can see the prosecutor's point- setting man traps is illegal- and it looks like he set one only making himself part of it.  He might just get a murder one conviction.

[mmhmm]

Apr 22, 2014 19:23:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Since this guy has had drugs stolen from his home twice and he had a good idea who did it, I suspect that the cops had a really good idea who did it too. Someone was sitting on their ass doing nothing.

Where did you read the guy had drugs stolen from his home twice?  I read another guy (a retired teacher) had drugs stolen from his home.  The drugs were his diabetic medication and his cholesterol medication, according to what I read.  All I saw about the shooter's house was that it had been robbed "several times", but only one burglary was reported to police.  Brady's sister had accused Brady of stealing drugs from her home, but what drugs were stolen I haven't read.

[mmhmm]

Apr 22, 2014 19:59:20 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Court documents from another case show Brady had burglarized Smith's property at least twice in the months before he was killed.

The above is quoted from an article I read earlier today.  I had the passage copied, but I lost the site so I cant go back and find it.  No idea if it's a reliable site or not, but if true, is interesting in and of itself.  If the young man had burglarized Smith's property at last twice in the months before he got shot, why was he even out running the streets?  If this is true, it's obvious the system failed to protect Mr. Smith.  Now they want to put him in jail for protecting himself?

As I said, I'd read Smith had claimed to have been burglarized several times but only one burglary was reported.  That might be why the kid wasn't in jail ... the burglary wasn't reported.

[Virgil Showlion]

This is only one of my problems with what Mr. Smith did, Virgil. I'm also disgusted by what appears to be premeditation. If he'd gone out and purchased a .45 specifically for this purpose, I'd still see him as I now see him (based only upon what's been offered in the media). If a .45 was what he happened to have when his house was invaded, I'd probably see it differently, depending on the circumstances. If, however, he'd made a call to police when he heard the window break, I'd be looking at the whole thing from a different angle.

In my hypothetical I'm suggesting he specifically went out and bought a .45 to make sure one shot would do the job if/when intruders next broke into his house.

It's premeditation on a contingent basis. As in: "If these kids try to break into my house again, I will surely kill them."

You're saying you would still convict him under those circumstances?

I get your point but he shot them with a mini-14- plenty deadly and about twice as powerful as a .45ACP. He only used the .22 after his rifle jammed- I assure you any head shots would have been devastating. They were probably down and no threat after the first shot to the body.

That actually makes the hypothetical even simpler.

If he hadn't shot each victim more than once with his mini 14, but both had died anyway, would you still convict him of murder? (Also, suppose this audio transcript didn't exist. I admit it's impossible to consider the shooting self-defense with that in the picture. Suppose the details are that a shooter lies in wait in his basement, shoots and instantly kills the first victim, leaves the body where it falls, shoots and instantly kills the second victim a few minutes later when she comes down, then calls police to report the shooting. No tarps or audio recordings.)

Starts with a false statement so it not applicable to this case but go on.

Please consider the same amended hypothetical as above.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Yes.  I saw your post.  But this article (and I'll try my hardest to find it - so sorry about not having the link) states court documents show Brady burglarized Smith's property at least twice.  It had to have been reported for it to be included in court documents.  These were documents from another case - not this current one.  Evidently they were reported.  Again, tho, I don't know how reliable the article was.

I know the rules about links.  I really will try to find it, but I'm in the middle of about nine things right now.  I don't mean to break the rules.

[jkapp]

Apr 22, 2014 18:30:24 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Apr 22, 2014 18:03:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Gee, if only the police had been watching the house, those two kids would be arrested instead of dead...

It's a bit unrealistic to think that the police would be sitting there watching one house.  They simply don't have the manpower. 

Hey, the have the manpower to sit by the side of the road with a radar gun...of course, they don't make money for the city/county by actually protecting our homes, do they?

[Deleted]

I have a hard time with the idea that people can harm me or steal my property and then it is dictated how I can stop them from doing so. This guy set a trap but nothing he did should have been a trap for anyone. There should be no problem with him not parking in his driveway. There should be no problem with him sitting in his basement. Him doing that stuff causes me absolutely no problem. It should have caused the thieves no problem. Them breaking into his house and stealing his meds and guns causes him a problem. I read somewhere that their level of force was escalating. Who knows who hasn't been hurt because these two are not on the prowl anymore.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I read that also, later.  Something about "increasingly violent", but I saw no specifics.  Wonder what this means?

[Tennesseer]

"Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of a tarp can be heard, then a dragging sound and heavy breathing. Smith has said he had moved Brady to a workshop in his basement to keep him from staining the basement carpet.

The audio continued with the sound of a gun reloading, then more deep breaths. In a quiet, low voice several minutes later, a female mumbles "Nick." Gunshots are heard again, as well as the sound of Kifer falling. Smith quickly said "Oh, sorry about that." Then Kifer said "Oh my God!" and screams.

Amid more shots, Smith told Kifer, "you're dying," and then calls her a derogatory name for a woman. After more heavy breathing and another dragging sound, Smith calls Kifer the name again. After more movement, the crack of a gun is heard.

Prosecutors stopped playing the tape after that gunshot.  The courtroom was silent except for a woman holding back sobs, the newspaper reported."

"You're dead," Minn. homeowner told teen burglar

Not sure the defense has anything to use in their favor once the prosecution stopped playing the tape.

GEL-there is a reference to the two previous burglaries you mention at the end of the linked article.

[Virgil Showlion]

If I wanted to wipe out drug thieves hassle-free, I'd strip my name off my prescription meds, lace them with tetrodotoxin, leave them in a conspicuous place, and let the thieves carry 'em back to their lair. Goodbye thieves.

[EVT1]

Apr 22, 2014 20:18:13 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I get your point but he shot them with a mini-14- plenty deadly and about twice as powerful as a .45ACP. He only used the .22 after his rifle jammed- I assure you any head shots would have been devastating. They were probably down and no threat after the first shot to the body.

That actually makes the hypothetical even simpler.

If he hadn't shot each victim more than once with his mini 14, but both had died anyway, would you still convict him of murder? (Also, suppose this audio transcript didn't exist. I admit it's impossible to consider the shooting self-defense with that in the picture. Suppose the details are that a shooter lies in wait in his basement, shoots and instantly kills the first victim, leaves the body where it falls, shoots and instantly kills the second victim a few minutes later when she comes down, then calls police to report the shooting. No tarps or audio recordings.)

Please consider the same amended hypothetical as above.

Assuming it isn't proven that he planned this out and was lying in wait- the exact opposite of being in fear for your life and reasonably needing to use deadly force- one or even several shots at them I would not consider it murder.

But if it is shown shots were fired at people that were injured and down and no longer a threat- it's murder. Not calling 911 after shooting people and they end up dying of a survivable wound would also be worth some time- although obvious in this case no one was going to be left alive.

Coup de grace=murder.  Kevorkian did time for putting people out of their misery too.  There is no way out of that- the 'finishing shot'.  That sunk his battleship, that and the angry sounding tape recording- which the fact he was taping it kind of shows preparation for an event- should have just got a camera and left the house for the day- would have worked out better for everyone.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 22, 2014 20:39:49 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

"Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of a tarp can be heard, then a dragging sound and heavy breathing. Smith has said he had moved Brady to a workshop in his basement to keep him from staining the basement carpet.

The audio continued with the sound of a gun reloading, then more deep breaths. In a quiet, low voice several minutes later, a female mumbles "Nick." Gunshots are heard again, as well as the sound of Kifer falling. Smith quickly said "Oh, sorry about that." Then Kifer said "Oh my God!" and screams.

Amid more shots, Smith told Kifer, "you're dying," and then calls her a derogatory name for a woman. After more heavy breathing and another dragging sound, Smith calls Kifer the name again. After more movement, the crack of a gun is heard.

Prosecutors stopped playing the tape after that gunshot.  The courtroom was silent except for a woman holding back sobs, the newspaper reported."

"You're dead," Minn. homeowner told teen burglar

Not sure the defense has anything to use in their favor once the prosecution stopped playing the tape.

GEL-there is a reference to the two previous burglaries you mention at the end of the linked article.

Thanks, Tenn. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

I'm not convinced the quickness of getting a tarp is an important factor.  I can lay my hands on one in a second here in my own home, depending on where I am.  And I'm sure not planning to shoot anybody.

[Deleted]

Oh, I'm pretty sure he was in the basement so the clean up in general would be easier. I'm not doubting he set the trap. I wonder how many times he waited in the basement and they didn't show up?