Self defense or murder?

[zibazinski]

One can only hope criminals think twice as more people are armed and protecting themselves.

[mmhmm]

I also question why he parked his truck away from his home before setting himself up in the basement.  That sounds to me like a premeditated act to draw someone into his home so he could shoot them.  Yep, they're crooks.  Yep, their silly little arses should have been in jail.  No excuse for what they were doing.  However, these aren't deer (as this man once compared them to).  They were people, crooks or not, and they were young, stupid people.  I just don't like the smell of the whole thing, and the smell is coming from his own account of what occurred. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I just read another article where this couple had robbed this guy of his meds TWICE. Apparently he was not the only one and there were reports of escalation of force.

I have to wonder if they were targeting elderly. They normally have a lot of meds in their house and they are unable to fight.

[Deleted]

The kill shots really creep me out. But it shouldn't matter where he parked his truck, where he sat or how quiet he was. If the kids had not broken into his house they would be fine today. And calling them kids is deceptive. "Kids" that age go to war for us and defend our country. They can be very dangerous.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

It his actions surrounding the shooting, and the kill shots to both the boy and the girl, that bother me about it. On their own, without the kill shots, the kids probably would have died. So if he had only done those shots, and then after waiting however long to make sure no one else was there, then called the police. Then no probably, idiot kids.
He was shooting a 22. No, the shots would not kill unless they hit something very specific like an artery. Even a head shot wouldn't kill. A 22 has very little power.

But, I question why he was in the basement without a phone when he knew there were break ins (though I don't damn him for not having one, but I would think a reasonable person would). The shots after they had been incapacitated. Waiting 24 hours for someone else to call the cops instead of calling them immediately after determining there was no one else in the house. All those make me think he used more the reasonable force, and knew it. Still idiot kids though.

My cell phone does not work in our basement and the landline down there does not work. As we don't spend a lot of time in the basement (even though 3 bedrooms, a bathroom and a den are down there), then we have not bothered to do anything about it.

I don't agree with him not calling the cops immediately, once he had eliminated the threat though.

[billisonboard]

On that day, he moved his truck away from his house, sat in his basement “and he waited,” Wartner said. minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/04/21/trial-begins-for-man-accused-of-murdering-2-teens/

If it is a proven fact presented in court that he normally parks at his place of residence but on this occasion did park his truck in a non-obvious location other than that, I am not sure I would need more than that to find premeditation if I were on the jury.

[zibazinski]

We have a "kid" in this neighborhood who is 5 and feral. He just walks into people's homes among other things. As he gets older, who knows what he will do? I just hope he stays away from us and our house. But if he's old enough to know better and breaks into my house, he's not going to live long enough to become an adult. His parents ought to be ashamed but they're the reason he's feral.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 22, 2014 13:00:19 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I also question why he parked his truck away from his home before setting himself up in the basement.  That sounds to me like a premeditated act to draw someone into his home so he could shoot them.  Yep, they're crooks.  Yep, their silly little arses should have been in jail.  No excuse for what they were doing.  However, these aren't deer (as this man once compared them to).  They were people, crooks or not, and they were young, stupid people.  I just don't like the smell of the whole thing, and the smell is coming from his own account of what occurred. 

I don't understand why it matters where he parked his truck.

Their silly little asses SHOULD have been in jail.  They had been caught doing this more than once, but they were not.  The wheels of justice were not working at all here.

[zibazinski]

This is why people have to defend themselves.

[Green Eyed Lady]

It's a fair point that the criminals thinking the house was empty was a deciding factor in deciding to invade it.  It may very well be that if they knew he was at home, they might have decided not to go in.  Certainly possible.   Then again....maybe not. 

The only thing we know for sure is these two criminals won't be victimizing anyone else.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 22, 2014 13:18:03 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

On that day, he moved his truck away from his house, sat in his basement “and he waited,” Wartner said. minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/04/21/trial-begins-for-man-accused-of-murdering-2-teens/

If it is a proven fact presented in court that he normally parks at his place of residence but on this occasion did park his truck in a non-obvious location other than that, I am not sure I would need more than that to find premeditation if I were on the jury.

Who cares?  If the thieves had not broken into his house, it wouldn't matter.  If my house had been broken into twice before, I would be inclined to have a gun around 24/7 too.  They knew he took meds, so all they had to do is wait long enough for the man to go back to his doctor to get refills.

You are reading the DA's opening statement against him, this is not a proven fact yet.

[mmhmm]

I'm reading several articles from several different sources, Mich.

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 13:23:18 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 22, 2014 13:18:03 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

On that day, he moved his truck away from his house, sat in his basement “and he waited,” Wartner said. minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/04/21/trial-begins-for-man-accused-of-murdering-2-teens/

If it is a proven fact presented in court ....

You are reading the DA's opening statement against him, this is not a proven fact yet.

Which is the exact reason that I started my statement the way I did.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

It is still a moot point. He was apparently targeted because they KNEW he had prescription meds in his house. Do you know how difficult it is to get those replaced? How costly?

There was just as much premeditation on the thieve's part as there was on his. How many more times did he need to be robbed of his meds before someone stopped them?

I agree, it was NOT his job to do so. But I'm not sure I would not do the same thing to stop it from happening to me either, because apparently despite the fact that the authorities knew what was happening, they were not inclined to stop them.

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 13:16:55 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

...
He was shooting a 22. ....

Actually, he shot them both with one of these:


It was only after he had killed the male and was going for the kill shot on the girl that his rifle jammed. That was when he used the 22. But you are right about it not being that powerful. He indicated that was why he shot her on the underside of her chin so it wouldn't hit bone on the way into her brain.
minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/04/21/trial-begins-for-man-accused-of-murdering-2-teens/
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/26/15458995-minnesota-man-who-killed-teens-in-break-in-charged-with-murder?lite

[justme]

My cell phone does not work in our basement and the landline down there does not work. As we don't spend a lot of time in the basement (even though 3 bedrooms, a bathroom and a den are down there), then we have not bothered to do anything about it.

Yeah, that's why I didn't damn him for it, but found it odd. But I'm a Floridian and didn't even think of basements not getting cell reception.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I agree it's no excuse, Mich.  Absolutely.  Criminals make enough excuses for themselves without law abiding citizens providing them with more.  I'm just saying that the jury may see it as some type of "luring".  I wouldn't see it that way, but someone else might.

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 13:41:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I agree it's no excuse, Mich.  Absolutely.  Criminals make enough excuses for themselves without law abiding citizens providing them with more.  I'm just saying that the jury may see it as some type of "luring".  I wouldn't see it that way, but someone else might.

"I just decided I needed a little more exercise that day"?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 22, 2014 13:43:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 22, 2014 13:41:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I agree it's no excuse, Mich.  Absolutely.  Criminals make enough excuses for themselves without law abiding citizens providing them with more.  I'm just saying that the jury may see it as some type of "luring".  I wouldn't see it that way, but someone else might.

"I just decided I needed a little more exercise that day"?

So then what?  They should have been politely asked to leave because they had the mistaken impression nobody was home? 

Not in my house.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think this crosses over the self defense line, but I don't know that you'd be able to get this guy convicted of murder in this scenario anymore than they could convict Zimmerman.

A lesser charge might stick better.

What really creeps me out is he left them in the basement for 24 hrs. Who does that? I can't imagine even the most rabid Wild West mentality poster on here leaving bodies to decompose in their basements for a day before calling police.

You'd think you'd want to call the police ASAP while the scene/bodies are still fresh and support your story in the moment.

At the very least I think the guy has a screw loose, but that doesn't mean he should go to prison for that.

[zibazinski]

Apr 22, 2014 13:38:18 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

It is still a moot point. He was apparently targeted because they KNEW he had prescription meds in his house. Do you know how difficult it is to get those replaced? How costly?

There was just as much premeditation on the thieve's part as there was on his. How many more times did he need to be robbed of his meds before someone stopped them?

I agree, it was NOT his job to do so. But I'm not sure I would not do the same thing to stop it from happening to me either, because apparently despite the fact that the authorities knew what was happening, they were not inclined to stop them.

Because they were just "kids." 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Could be a loose screw.  Could be trauma.  I'm betting there will be mental health experts testifying.  I can't say I wouldn't shut down completely and sit there staring at them for a week. 

If he waited in an attempt to cover up what he had done, I would have expected some type of attempt at getting rid of the bodies or something.  I'm leaning toward trauma of some sort.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Here's another thing I was thinking....

Most people store meds either in their kitchen or their bathroom. Presuming both are not in the basement, what possible reason would there be for the guy to go downstairs? Unless they both were high on something, it would make more sense (if they thought that the house was empty) to take the drugs and run. I suspect that is the reason why both did not go downstairs, the girl probably went looking for the drugs, the guy decided to check things out.

But instead, the guy went downstairs. Why? Did he suspect someone was down there to harm?

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 13:48:05 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Apr 22, 2014 13:43:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

"I just decided I needed a little more exercise that day"?

So then what?  They should have been politely asked to leave because they had the mistaken impression nobody was home? 

Not in my house.

The question for me: "Did this person actively work to create a situation in which he gave himself the opportunity to kill someone?" or "Did this person take reasonable steps to safeguard himself and his property and then in spite of those steps, because of the actions of others, he was forced to use deadly force?"

I find an affirmative to the first objectionable. An affirmative to the second is life (and death).

[Deleted]

Apr 22, 2014 14:09:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 22, 2014 13:48:05 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

So then what?  They should have been politely asked to leave because they had the mistaken impression nobody was home? 

Not in my house.

The question for me: "Did this person actively work to create a situation in which he gave himself the opportunity to kill someone?" or "Did this person take reasonable steps to safeguard himself and his property and then in spite of those steps, because of the actions of others, he was forced to use deadly force?"

I find an affirmative to the first objectionable. An affirmative to the second is life (and death).

The way this guy tells it, he was safeguarding his property. And himself depending on how serious it is for him to be without his meds. As weird as it is, with the description of the criminals they weren't planning on stopping. Stealing someone's meds is a serious thing. The fact is, he could have been inclined to do this because of lacking the meds they had previously stolen. I'm just glad they are the ones that paid the price and not some innocent neighbour that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Another fair point, bill, and excellent question.  Maybe a little of both?   And if so?  Is he guilty of anything other than protecting his home and person?  If law enforcement can't stop people from breaking into your home, is it bad to do so yourself?  Or are you supposed to just sit tight till they finally kill you for your Vicodin?  The only thing I can say for sure is that "the actions of others" caused this whole thing.  Had those two criminals not broken into his home, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  That's really all I need to know to say "not guilty".  I know others disagree.  That's what makes message boards great, eh? 

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 14:14:05 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

... The way this guy tells it, ...

No doubt. Many who kill have a great explanation of why they had to do what they did. There is a question (based on the fact the case is in court) if what he did were acceptable actions for a member of our society.

[Deleted]

Apr 22, 2014 14:19:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 22, 2014 14:14:05 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

... The way this guy tells it, ...

No doubt. Many who kill have a great explanation of why they had to do what they did. There is a question (based on the fact the case is in court) if what he did were acceptable actions for a member of our society.

I should have added that I haven't seen anything that contradicts that these criminals have robbed him before.

I find what he did extremely creepy. But once they broke into his house with the intent to steal they gave up the protections of law.

[billisonboard]

Apr 22, 2014 14:23:17 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

... But once they broke into his house with the intent to steal they gave up the protections of law.

They were his to do with anything he wished once they broke in? Then he would be within his rights to have captured them, raped them, tortured them, whatever? Or is killing them his only right?

[Deleted]

Apr 22, 2014 14:29:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 22, 2014 14:23:17 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

... But once they broke into his house with the intent to steal they gave up the protections of law.

They were his to do with anything he wished once they broke in? Then he would be within his rights to have captured them, raped them, tortured them, whatever? Or is killing them his only right?

Only if he raped them because he was scared.