A mess / suspected child abuse

[Deleted]

Could she just be keeping the child from Dad and pissing the courts off?

No, because she was HELL BENT on making things work, because she wanted a "second chance", and because this guy is rich. She only left the marital home (I'm calling it that even though they were only living together, but that is REALLY not a big deal here) after she felt she saw evidence of his abuse. 

She moved out, to another suburb (much further away) and asked him for nothing. He supposedly tracked her down. 

Again, I don't know.

Edited to remove the details

[Deleted]

Lassie, Rukh is right, I am in France, so are all the other people involved. I'm American, the others are not. 

I agree, I have 4 kids and a LOT of trouble imagining that a kid would make that stuff up. Yes, kids lie, but zizis, and cunnilingus, are not even on the register of 3/4 years olds. 

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2014 18:23:43 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Something is going on.  Not that I have much experience with custody cases, but I find it hard to believe if there was all this evidence and tihe mandated reporters testified on the mother's behalf that they'd really just up and give full custody to the Dad, especially of such a young child that the mother had physical custody of up until now.  God, I HOPE not anyhow.  That is really scary. 

Exactly. Courts do not routinely award custody of kids to child molesters especially if there us video evidence. And yes, sick fucks film that crap.

And unfortunately, parents do make that stuff up in custody cases. Not often, but I've seen it.

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2014 19:07:06 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

Lassie, Rukh is right, I am in France, so are all the other people involved. I'm American, the others are not. 

I agree, I have 4 kids and a LOT of trouble imagining that a kid would make that stuff up. Yes, kids lie, but zizis, and cunnilingus, are not even on the register of 3/4 years olds. 

You're right. They don't make it up. It either happened or someone coached her.

[Deleted]

Captain, I agree. BUT, I don't think you can "coach" a 3YO to lie about something that is totally out of their register. You can coach them to lie about something they are familiar with, yes, I agree. But not something that involves a new set of actions and / or vocabulary. 

Again, I'm NOT trying to decide whether the dad is guilty of abuse or not.

I'm just trying to get reassurance that I am not a monster because I would not accept to "hide" them from the courts and take in the mom, the 20YO DD, and the 4YO DD. 

[milee]

I'm sorry you're in this position, debt. It's such a hard thing for any of us to advise you on because we don't know 1) enough about the family to know if the mom is credible; 2) enough about the French child protection system to know if the situation sounds plausible; and 3) enough about French laws to know what risk you would be taking by harboring them.

Anything we say would be second guessing something we just don't know enough about.

Don't beat yourself up.

FWIW, if this were here in America in either of the two states I'm knowledgeable about, I'd guess there is much more to the story than what you've been told and would be asking some very detailed questions before deciding to believe the story.  If the mom were able to answer those questions, I'd probably help.  If the mom wasn't able to answer those questions or the answers sounded screwy, I'd think this was not a situation I wanted to be involved in.

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2014 19:11:54 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

Captain, I agree. BUT, I don't think you can "coach" a 3YO to lie about something that is totally out of their register. You can coach them to lie about something they are familiar with, yes, I agree. But not something that involves a new set of actions and / or vocabulary. 

Again, I'm NOT trying to decide whether the dad is guilty of abuse or not.

I'm just trying to get reassurance that I am not a monster because I would not accept to "hide" them from the courts and take in the mom, the 20YO DD, and the 4YO DD. 

You're not a monster for refusing to commit a crime.

[milee]

Mar 7, 2014 19:11:54 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

Captain, I agree. BUT, I don't think you can "coach" a 3YO to lie about something that is totally out of their register.

Unfortunately, you can.

Also, the 3 YO didn't tell you this. The mom is telling you that the 3 YO said that. Big difference.

[Deleted]

Swamp, could you hazard a guess on this? I am SO TOTALLY FLUMMOXED, and SO UPSET!

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2014 19:14:14 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

Swamp, could you hazard a guess on this? I am SO TOTALLY FLUMMOXED, and SO UPSET!

I'm guessing the mom is a whackadoodle.

[The Captain]

@debthaven2 - 

1.  You are not a monster.  No one has the right to ask you to put yourself and your family at risk by committing a crime.
2.  Keep reminding yourself that something is amiss here, and there is also a possibility the Mother (whom by your words and her own kids isn't a saint) is lying.
3.  I also have to ask why wouldn't she seek refuge with her parents?

[Deleted]

I also think a 3/4 yo who has been molested is also convinced by the abuser to not tell anyone. They are generally sworn or threatened to secrecy.

That's EXACTLY how it came out! She was having horrific nightmares, she would wake up screaming every night. As she got older / more verbal she told the mom that she and her dad would "play" but she couldn't tell her about it, because it was a secret, otherwise the monsters and dragons and giant dragons would eat her all up.  

[Deleted]

I'm guessing the mom is a whackadoodle.

Swamp, I have considered this possibility, trust me LOL. But I really don't think so. IF she is a whackadoodle, in your experience, is it normal that NONE of her 3 adult kids from her first marriage know this? I find that hard to believe (they are 20-25 and all at university. One in med school, one is art school, DD's BFF is in law school.)

[milee]

That's the big problem in so many of these cases - the mom is a whackadoodle and does other things to compromise her credibility. Once she does that, the whole case becomes impossible because none of the people involved have credibility and there's rarely physical evidence.

Look at the Woody Allen case. It's really tough to know what happened because Mia Farrow behaved like such a whackadoodle her actions prevent her from being a credible witness and make it believable that she may have coached Dylan. So because Mia acted crazy, that jeopardizes the whole case because Mia is the one that "documented" the claims and was a primary witness. 

This is all incredibly unfair to the children. Because remember, even though the mom is a whackadoodle with no credibility, that doesn't mean the daughter wasn't molested, it just means it's unlikely people will believe her. Awful.

[Deleted]

3. I also have to ask why wouldn't she seek refuge with her parents?

Captain, I asked that too (again, I was pretty perplexed at having her need to count on us when I barely know her). Apparently they are "too old" to deal with her young daughter, and there was an "issue" with her ex (the dad of her 3 older kids) and she fell out with them for years, until last year. 

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2014 19:22:24 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

I also think a 3/4 yo who has been molested is also convinced by the abuser to not tell anyone. They are generally sworn or threatened to secrecy.

That's EXACTLY how it came out! She was having horrific nightmares, she would wake up screaming every night. As she got older / more verbal she told the mom that she and her dad would "play" but she could't talk about it, because otherwise the monsters and dragons and giant dragons would eat her all up.  

This is one of the things that makes me suspicious. 3 yr olds don't developmentally understand sex, and unless they ate physically being hurt, they don't have nightmare about the sex abuse. The dragons yes. Its most often discovered when they act sexually inappropriate.

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2014 19:24:22 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

I'm guessing the mom is a whackadoodle.

Swamp, I have considered this possibility, trust me LOL. But I really don't think so. IF she is a whackadoodle, in your experience, is it normal that NONE of her 3 adult kids from her first marriage know this? I find that hard to believe (they are 20-25 and all at university.)

She's their mom, whackadoodle or not.

[Deleted]

Milee, I think this is EXACTLY the problem! This is why I told her, DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB!!!

[Deleted]

Swamp, she was supposedly having nightmares about being "eaten up" by the beasts, but that's interesting.

[milee]

Why does she want to quit her job?  I don't understand how that would help - do you understand why she wants to do that?  Also, if she's unemployed it might give credence to the dad accusing her of shaking him down for money.

[Deleted]

she felt backed into a corner when she and the girl's dad separated.

She supposedly left him BECAUSE of the abuse. 

[midjd]

It's possible the daughter was abused, but not by the father....

Regardless, I think you did the right thing.

[Deleted]

Why does she want to quit her job?

It's not that she WANTED to quit. She is frankly a very hard worker, and earns a decent living. She was a single mom for many years, has never received any CS for her 3 older kids, and has always worked full time plus gone to school at night / weekends for another degree.

She only wanted to quit recently because of this issue, she felt overwhelmed by all the appointments with lawyers / courts / docs etc. 

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2014 19:24:22 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

I'm guessing the mom is a whackadoodle.

Swamp, I have considered this possibility, trust me LOL. But I really don't think so. IF she is a whackadoodle, in your experience, is it normal that NONE of her 3 adult kids from her first marriage know this? I find that hard to believe (they are 20-25 and all at university. One in med school, one is art school, DD's BFF is in law school.)

Just because the older kids had a "normal" childhood doesn't mean the younger one can't. Mom could have a chemical imbalance that's making her whackadoodle for all we know.

[Deleted]

Mid, that's what one of MY BFFs told me today at lunch (she's a nurse). I honestly can't believe that. But, who knows?

Thank you all SO MUCH! I REALLY appreciate your input, especially to hear that I am not a monster who turned these people out. It was a REALLY hard call, especially with DD asking me totally out of the blue. 

It's very late here and I need to go to bed now. Thank you all so much! 

[milee]

Debt, in France what's the process for reporting child abuse? In America, if you discover your spouse is abusing your kid and you leave the spouse, you report it to the police and/or child protective services (you can call either and they'll coordinate.) Then there's an investigation. Cases like the one you're describing are really tough because there's rarely physical evidence and 3 YOs are not often reliable witnesses - they don't always understand the differences between real/play, can be coached, etc. That's part of why it's important for a person who's trained in interviewing 3 YOs to do the interviews; that person can get the information without coaching the kid. 

Is that how it works in France?

[milee]

Mar 7, 2014 19:36:49 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

Why does she want to quit her job?

It's not that she WANTED to quit. She is frankly a very hard worker, and earns a decent living. She was a single mom for many years, has never received any CS for her 3 older kids, and has always worked full time plus gone to school at night / weekends for another degree.

She only wanted to quit recently because of this issue, she felt overwhelmed by all the appointments with lawyers / courts / docs etc. 

I'm still missing it. Not to be too harsh, but since the daughter is now not in her custody, she won't be doing all the doctor appointments, etc. and I'm guessing that this also means that most of the court stuff is over for right now, so .... what's she going to do all day? 

[Deleted]

se vautrer dans l'apitoiement.....


ETA: WHOOPS! Copied the wrong part of that translation.

[Deleted]

Yes, pretty much the same here Milee. There are "mandated reporters", ie teachers, docs, nurses, childcare providers, etc.

Her daycare provider reported suspected abuse at about the same time the mom did (over a year ago, the child was in nursery school this year, but she was still there for before / after school care). 

Sadly, the dad has since moved hundreds of miles away. I'm guessing he'll put her in school too, but it won't be the same school. 

[Deleted]

Milee, the child was removed from her custody only today, and she never expected that to happen in a million years. Her son was operated on tonight. I'm sure she'll go back to work soon, but surely you can understand that she'll probably need a few days?

OK, got it! In fact, she did NOT quit. She WANTED to quit, and even TRIED to quit, but her company refused to let her quit. Per their agreement, she went on sick leave instead. They told her to come back when she can.

So, she is still employed by her employer.

Does that answer your question?