Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 17:34:18 GMT -5
I'm going to TRY to make this short.
My DD's best friend was one of three siblings. Like my DD, she has two older brothers. They are both a couple of years younger than my DS1 and DS2. One is in med school, and one is in art school. I have never met them but I am very close to my DD's BFF, she spent half of middle school here. The mom was pursuing other relationships. She would come home to cook and prepare meals, but she would sleep at her BF's place. There were several BFs.
Our DDs are now 21 (my DD) and 20 (her BFF). They are both in their third (last) years of university.
The mom had a volatile relationship with a guy who was divorced with two tween / teen girls. She got pregnant, in her early 40s. He did not want the child, she had it, they were together for a while.
Long story short, the mom found (video) evidence that the dad was sexually abusing the child (who is now 4). She refused to give the dad visitation. She thought that with the evidence she was home free. Also, all "mandated reporters" suspected that the child had been abused.
Last week the courts awarded custody to the dad. I only found this out TODAY when DD texted me that the police showed up with the dad at the mom's house, so could we please "hide" the 3 of them and keep them "just for a month". I said no. DD asked, can we hide them for a week? I said no again. The judge gave custody (not visitation, custody) to the dad, and the police enforced it. DD's BFF is besides herself. One of the older brothers (an art student) broke a beer bottle in frustration and mangled his hand, and has just come out of surgery. They have all told me that his two daughters have admitted that their dad abused them but the mom refuses to let them make a statement because otherwise the dad will not be able to pay CS.
I refused to hide the mom and small child, but I texted the mom (who I barely know) and she called me back. We were on the phone for an hour. There really does seem to be a lot of evidence against the dad, but I'm not a lawyer or a judge, and the dad got custody.
I offered to "be there" for the mom (she is coming over for coffee tomorrow), and to give her free English lessons, and to let her older DD (my DD's best friend) live here.
But, I refused to take in the mom and the 4YO. It's a moot point now, since the dad has the 4YO. Thankfully my DD understood (because you all know she can be difficult) and was grateful that I offered for her BFF to move in.
There is DEFINITELY cause for concern about the young child. This said, it's all hearsay. But, I have raised 4 kids, I have a pretty good idea of what is appropriate or not, the behavior this child has exhibited is NOT appropriate.
I do not want to debate whether the dad is abusing the child or not, because I don't know (personally I think he is but again, I'm neither a lawyer nor a judge.)
What I want to know is, even without knowing, do you think I should you have taken them all in / hidden them?
I KNOW I couldn't have handled it, so, frankly, no regrets. I have a job, DH is having more surgery, no good deed goes unpunished, we have family friends coming soon for nearly two weeks, and IMO you know when people in need come, but you don't know when they leave. Been there, done that, nyet, I know I need to preserve my energy / resources for my own family.
But of course I'm feeling guilty / curious. So after much inner debate, I'm putting this out there.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Mar 7, 2014 17:41:40 GMT -5
I agree with taking in the BFF whom you know well, but not the rest of the family.
You have enough issues to deal with concerning your own DH and DD.
They have serious issues that you can't have landing on your doorstep. They need serious legal and professional help.
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JustLurkin
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Post by JustLurkin on Mar 7, 2014 17:45:03 GMT -5
I would not have taken them in.
<removed a bunch of stuff>
she will not be able to stay with a known friend
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 17:47:10 GMT -5
I DO feel terrible. So, I've decided to "be there" (ie available) for the mom, but not let them move in.
Ironically, the mom understood, but I'm guessing DD's BFF is angry at me. No matter, the door is still open for her, and will remain so.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 7, 2014 17:52:14 GMT -5
Well, you'd probably be committing a crime by taking them in and "hiding" them, so I would not ever do that.
As callous as it sounds, that's not your problem, even if the kid is being abused. That's between the mom, the dad, and the police/courts. Offering to "be there" is about the best thing anyone could expect you to do.
Abuse situations are always tough, there's a lot of he said/she said and "suspicions" but it's usually pretty hard to prove. It's best not to get involved and take sides if all you have is heresay and it's not your kids.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 17:52:55 GMT -5
she will not be able to stay with a known friend
Thanks, but could you please explain more about what you mean?
This is another thing that troubles me. The mom is French, her parents live in Paris, but she fell out with them for years, and only got back in touch with them a year ago.
In my experience here, us "foreigners" get VERY close to each other, partly because we DON'T have parents / siblings / aunts / uncles / cousins / etc. So I thought it was REALLY weird that this woman decided that WE should hide her and her young DD.
I'm very close to her daughter, but I've only met the mom 4 or 5 times. Since she's French, that seemed REALLY strange to me.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 7, 2014 17:53:18 GMT -5
Unless you saw the video, I wouldn't believe the story
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 17:56:18 GMT -5
Is this man well connect - politically, police, whatever?
Yes, Rukh, and very wealthy. That is what the mom is crying to me, I tried to go through the proper state / association channels, but he was able to afford a private lawyer, and now my young DD and I are screwed.
She told me she wanted to give up her job. I told her NOT to, she needs to show that she is earning a salary (she is on sick leave) and she needs the health insurance. I think I managed to convince her.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 17:59:39 GMT -5
Unless you saw the video, I wouldn't believe the story
I haven't, but the DD did. Why do you say this, Swamp?! I was hoping you'd chime in! I think SOMETHING is off, but I can't figure out what.
Apparently it's two videos of the girl in the bath, then playing with herself, then crying, with NO comment from whoever is filming. When you film your kids, it's usually, "hey cutie, look at the camera! Say hello! " There is apparently ZERO verbal communication on these videos (which I have NOT seen) which is what raised a red flag to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:01:26 GMT -5
she will not be able to stay with a known friend
I took this to mean that the authorities would be looking for the child and the non custodial parent. Basically at this point it would be kidnapping.
Generally speaking not a good idea aide a kidnapper.
Sorry I didn't understand what you meant Just, thanks for explaining Sroo!
Agreed, and also why I refused.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 7, 2014 18:02:00 GMT -5
Unless you saw the video, I wouldn't believe the storyI haven't, but the DD did. Why do you say this, Swamp?! I was hoping you'd chime in! I think SOMETHING is off, but I can't figure out what. Apparently it's two videos of the girl in the bath, then playing with herself, then crying, with NO comment from whoever is filming. When you film your kids, it's usually, "hey cutie, look at the camera! Say hello! " There is apparently ZERO verbal communication on these videos (which I have NOT seen) which is what raised a red flag to me. That doesn't necessarily mean anything. Just because people don't behave like you'd expect doesn't make them criminals, or mean something is going on. I'm not saying there is abuse, but that you don't know if there is abuse going on or not, so it's best not to get involved. Seriously, if you took them in, at worst you could be charged with kidnapping, or as an accomplice to kidnapping. Is that what you want? Kidnapping is a serious crime.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:08:38 GMT -5
Phoenix, point taken. But there really is (supposedly) a LOT more.
I really DON'T want to post the "dirty details", but there is (supposedly) evidence that the dad IS abusing the child.
But to me, that's neither here nor there.
I probably should have written, if there is EVEN SUSPECTED abuse, should I have taken the Mom, older DD (20) and younger DD (4) in?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:11:54 GMT -5
Rukh I actually thought of asking the mom for the video and then trying to see if it was distributed, and then thought again, for the reasons you mentioned.
If they had been in trouble, unexpectedly, I would have taken them in. But "can they move in for a month", I said no.
Also, they would have found me, it wouldn't have been that difficult, the mom and 3 kids lived a few blocks from me for years till she moved after leaving the dad (also in my neighborhood).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:12:29 GMT -5
Rukh DH did that, and I will pass them onto the mom tomorrow when she comes for coffee. I do not have her email addy, otherwise I would have forwarded what DH found.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:13:03 GMT -5
Unless you saw the video, I wouldn't believe the story I know people lie about all kinds of things, but I don't think someone in debt's position has to see the video to believe the story. Even if no video ever existed, that wouldn't mean the child wasn't abused. I feel terrible for the children. Even if it's all a lie, I still feel for them because it's a terrible lie to be told about their Dad. So they lose either way. I don't think you were wrong debt, to refuse to allow a woman you barely know and her child to hide out at your home.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 7, 2014 18:13:31 GMT -5
Phoenix, point taken. But there really is (supposedly) a LOT more. I really DON'T want to post the "dirty details", but there is (supposedly) evidence that the dad IS abusing the child. But to me, that's neither here nor there. I probably should have written, if there is EVEN SUSPECTED abuse, should I have taken the Mom, older DD (20) and younger DD (4) in? Again, no. All I've heard is "suspected" and "red flags." Unless I catch someone in the act (in which case I'll go to the authorities), I'd stay out of it. You are correct in your assessment that it doesn't matter how much evidence or red flags go up, that's neither here nor there. You won't be doing yourself any favors by aiding in a kidnapping. If you wanted to help, maybe help the mom get in touch with good lawyers, or shelters for women and children, or try and raise money for legal fees.
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JustLurkin
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Post by JustLurkin on Mar 7, 2014 18:21:52 GMT -5
Rukh DH did that, and I will pass them onto the mom tomorrow when she comes for coffee. I do not have her email addy, otherwise I would have forwarded what DH found. Do not email her stuff like that, you can't aide/abet her in any way or you're jeopardizing yourself and your family. I'm surprised she didn't have "plan B" already in place for a bad outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:23:13 GMT -5
Unless I catch someone in the act
Phoenix, not many abusers choose to "perform" in front of an audience. This said, I agree with your assessment. But, it's not the "noblest" reaction, it's the "easy way out", and I'm aware of that, and that's probably why I am feeling guilty and troubled.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:23:43 GMT -5
Something is going on. Not that I have much experience with custody cases, but I find it hard to believe if there was all this evidence and the mandated reporters testified on the mother's behalf that they'd really just up and give full custody to the Dad, especially of such a young child that the mother had physical custody of up until now. God, I HOPE not anyhow. That is really scary.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:25:16 GMT -5
Thank you Rukh! But please stop now LOL.
The mom has an appt early Mon morning with her chosen association, Victims of Incest, at one of the major Parisian hospitals. She is taking their lawyer, and "alerting the media". I warned her that COULD backfire, but it's up to her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:27:30 GMT -5
Do not email her stuff like that, you can't aide/abet her in any way or you're jeopardizing yourself and your family.
I agree that hiding her / her DD would be jeopardizing myself, but I don't see how passing on internet links could. I would think that's the least I could do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:28:22 GMT -5
Paint, it's not permanent custody, it's for two months, till the next hearing. But two months is PLENTY LONG!
ETA: But I agree, it's VERY scary!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:28:28 GMT -5
I would probably take them in, at least for a bit so they could regroup and find some help. Are there any shelters for women in paris? here there is RAINN that could be contacted - there must be hotlines that could hook them up with emergency services somewhere. this is a 4 yo child, imo - you protect first and ask questions later.Debt - do NOT watch the video, you may become a criminal. That's my initial reaction too. But there are a lot of things I'd have to know for sure and quite a few "ifs" that I'd have to get straight before I took such a risk. That's what I "think" I might do, but really, who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:35:52 GMT -5
Rukh, Pink, it was my reaction too. If they had shown up, yes, obviously, I would have taken them all in! But it didn't happen that way, at all. What happened today was, I was marking papers, and DD texted me (from school) I just heard from M (her BFF), the judge wants to award custody to A (the dad). (In fact she already had awarded custody to the dad, but nobody realized that.) I (STUPIDLY!!!) said that's impossible, you must mean visitation, not custody, no way would B lose custody. DD answered, I don't know, but they need to run away, now, so can we hide them for just a month? I'm thinking, it's too late to "run away" with the police and the dad there, and said no. DD said, can we hide them for a week? I said no again. Then DD texted me to tell me that the dad and the police had (already!) raided the mom's house early this morning (because she was in contempt of court for not allowing the dad visitation). They were all taken to the police station, they spent several hours there, and in the end, per court order, the police gave the child to the Dad. She hasn't even seen him in 14 months, she's only 4. Abuse or not, the poor little thing must be terrified. That's exactly how it went down. Sorry if I was not clearer, I'm pretty shaken, but NOTHING compared to how they must be feeling.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:39:26 GMT -5
Swamp if you could give me any more insight I would REALLY appreciate it!!!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 7, 2014 18:54:03 GMT -5
The Mom is a wreck who neglected her own children in pursuit of a man? She had a falling out with her parents?
She's got a child/children dependent on her and she's currently on sick leave/wants to quit her job?
She has absolutely no ability to have healthy relationships unless it's for her benefit and you believe that it's impossible for her to be the abuser (if there is one).
She sounds like a manipulative, cunning, self absorbed person who will say whatever she needs to in order to get what she wants.
I'm with others, there's more here than what she claims.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 18:59:22 GMT -5
I'm not saying this is what's happening, but I know false accusations against a parent in court are viewed about the same as hiding assets in a divorce. "Ok, you were worried about losing half? Well, now they get it all!" Could she just be keeping the child from Dad and pissing the courts off?
edit: just read your last post, and if it's true and I was the Mom, yes I would be freaked. What isn't adding up is the court ignoring it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 19:00:03 GMT -5
Has the dad accused the mom of abuse? No, not abuse, but being "insane". She was evaluated by a court-appointed shrink and found to be "psycho-rigide", ie anal. Eddy Izzard did a skit on that.
It doesn't sound like you're getting the whole story...
I agree. I also think the mom has no money, so she's going through "the system", and the dad got a private lawyer.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 7, 2014 19:02:44 GMT -5
The claims are heresy without proof and I have (unfortunately) heard about cases where mothers coach impressionable young children to say worse. What's even sadder is to a child that age at some point they start to believe it. Very young children really can't tell fantasy from reality.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Mar 7, 2014 19:03:33 GMT -5
I just read you post, debthaven - no I won't quote it, as requested.
First of all, a four-year-old is incapable of making up a lie of that magnitude and in such graphic detail! It certainly sounds to me like the child has been molested, if that's what the child said to the mom.
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@tbird: I believe that debthaven is in the US - and since this French woman is a neighbor (their DD's are BFFs), then the woman making the claims of abuse are also in the US - those French laws & links you posted wouldn't apply if they're here in N America.
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