giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,141
|
Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2014 8:25:37 GMT -5
I work with poor kids at one of my jobs. 99% of these kids are minorities. Most of the teachers, up until now have been white.
Our program director has made a big push over the last year to now hire minority teachers. Indeed, now I'm the only white teacher.
I thought, OK, no big deal, until I was told point blank that I would not be teaching three African boys, because I am neither black nor a male. Instead, a green teacher who happens to be male and black will be getting these boys.
Here's the rub though: Minority teacher #1 was hired on reputation and has been working with the kids for one semester. After the first month, kids started not going to her classes (either just not going, or hiding in different parts of the building), and parents started complaining to the family liaison about this teacher. By the end of two months, the parents and KIDS started complaining to me about this teacher.
During our concert first major concert, her kids were ill prepared, and she chose not to lead her groups. I had to.
Minority teacher #2 has little experience teaching my instrument (and now is going to teach beginners on how to teach.)
Minority teachers #1 and #2 were not encouraged to learn the specific pedagogy of the director. It's good. It works. It's what's what we are expected to follow.
I can't complain to the director when the director is making these decisions. First, I know the director withholds information from me, so I don't know if I ever have the whole story. Second, the director is very prominent regionally and likely nationally. Rocking the boat too much could be professional suicide. Third, I'm going to need the money to off set daycare/preschool costs for #3. And last, since this is a non-profit (rather than a public school), I'm not sure I could go any where and complain. This is really bothering me. What am I missing or what don't I understand? I grew up lower middle class, so not all that well off, but not dirt poor. (I am one generation from poor, though.) I grew up in a dysfunctional home, so I understand dysfunctional systems. I was taught that race shouldn't be an issue.
So, is it really better for minority kids to be taught by someone who IS a minority, but an inferior teacher? And, by inferior, I mean, a teacher that doesn't set the bar high, sets a poor example, doesn't know what they are supposed to be teaching or HOW they are supposed to be teaching, and a teacher that could really care less about the kids. And it shows, the kids do jack squat for the teacher...
Does anyone know if there have been studies done on the merits of minorities educating other minorities? Does being a minority teacher make you a better teacher, because you are minority? Is it better for kids to have a teacher that looks like them, rather than a competent teacher?
I'm hoping to try to find some time to start talking with folks at my university. But, in the mean time, I thought I'd pick your brains, since I know we have educators here...(and I'm hoping Jenny will weigh in if she can...)
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2014 9:20:05 GMT -5
I worked with minority teachers and some were great and some were okay and one was plain out bad. I find that to be the same among non minority teachers as well. Not sure what to tell you. Is kind of like the real world and some customers are going to get short changed. It's a great idea but doesn't always work. The system means well.
|
|
Spellbound454
Senior Member
"In the end, we remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends"
Joined: Sept 9, 2011 17:28:42 GMT -5
Posts: 4,095
|
Post by Spellbound454 on Jan 19, 2014 9:27:14 GMT -5
I'm an educator and think that the whole idea of minorities having to teach minorities... is completely absurd.
Children should be taught by whoever the School, in a non discriminatory way, has employed as the best person for the job........ and the children have to fit in.
Equality is something that your country, and ours, holds very dear.......and teachers of both sexes and all creeds should be able to apply where suited.
The message to the children is that if you work hard, and do well.... you have just as much chance as anyone else.
In trying to support ethnic minorities, you can be in danger of overriding one of the most important fundamental principles on which our societies are based......ie equality.
The message to ethnic minorities should be......"This is how we operate in this country.... its up to you to adapt to the host."
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 10:12:25 GMT -5
I think your director has taken it to an absurd length, but, yes, it is important that the program reflect the diversity of those it serves at least to some extent.
To take race out of it for a moment, think about how overwhelmingly female the teaching profession is. Think how overwhelmingly male the administration tends to be. It is important for boys to see that teachers can be males. It is important for girls to see that administrators can be females.
The key, though, is that the person selected for either position should be a strong candidate. Gender or race should only tip the scales when it really makes no real difference.
In the situation you describe, the person selected isn't a strong candidate. However, if no one is asking your professional opinion (parents and students really don't count in that sense, and they will twist what you say until you won't recognize it), I would stay out of the situation. I am paid to teach my students. When the administration wants my opinion of how to run the school, they will ask for it. Sometimes they do.
This is particularly true if you need the job. It isn't that the administration necessarily wants yes-people, but rather they cannot run a program if employees are deliberately stirring the pot. That's not what you are doing; you are genuinely concerned. Unfortunately, the administration (or director in your case) can't always tell the difference.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 10:25:08 GMT -5
My brother, after many frustrating, stomach ulcer-causing years of teaching, has finally figured out that he needed to stay out of these situations or risk losing his sanity and his job. I suggest you put your head down, do your job and stay out of it.
|
|
Cass
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 0:43:29 GMT -5
Posts: 2,451
|
Post by Cass on Jan 19, 2014 10:34:22 GMT -5
You said it yourself: I can't complain to the director when the director is making these decisions. First, I know the director withholds information from me, so I don't know if I ever have the whole story. Second, the director is very prominent regionally and likely nationally. Rocking the boat too much could be professional suicide. Third, I'm going to need the money to off set daycare/preschool costs for #3. And last, since this is a non-profit (rather than a public school), I'm not sure I could go any where and complain. Head down, do your job, go home.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 15,010
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jan 19, 2014 10:49:45 GMT -5
I agree with Susanna. It IS important for kids to see people who look like them in education, but it shouldn't be the defining hiring requirement.
There was a letter to.one of our papers from an African American 5th grader asking if she would ever have a teacher who looked like her that I read a few years ago. I'm not sure how that happens in this area in this day and age, but it made me realize it is still an issue.
Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,141
|
Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2014 11:02:40 GMT -5
I think your director has taken it to an absurd length, but, yes, it is important that the program reflect the diversity of those it serves at least to some extent. To take race out of it for a moment, think about how overwhelmingly female the teaching profession is. Think how overwhelmingly male the administration tends to be. It is important for boys to see that teachers can be males. It is important for girls to see that administrators can be females. The key, though, is that the person selected for either position should be a strong candidate. Gender or race should only tip the scales when it really makes no real difference. In the situation you describe, the person selected isn't a strong candidate. However, if no one is asking your professional opinion (parents and students really don't count in that sense, and they will twist what you say until you won't recognize it), I would stay out of the situation. I am paid to teach my students. When the administration wants my opinion of how to run the school, they will ask for it. Sometimes they do. This is particularly true if you need the job. It isn't that the administration necessarily wants yes-people, but rather they cannot run a program if employees are deliberately stirring the pot. That's not what you are doing; you are genuinely concerned. Unfortunately, the administration (or director in your case) can't always tell the difference. Thanks for chiming. I was hoping you would. I do plan on keeping my head down and doing the best job that I can.
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 14,248
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jan 19, 2014 12:39:32 GMT -5
Definitely a tricky situation. I'm sorry you're in it. My perspective is from a public education side, not private school. In my state, we must report to the state what race each staff member is in addition to what race each student is. If we are not reflective in our staff race percentages as is our student race percentages, we get "docked" in our school's report card.
However, I generally making hiring decisions on what's best for kids. I chose an inexperienced teacher over a slightly more experienced teacher because my choice was male. I have teenagers for students and they need a string male role model. It's his first year, and he's not great but he'll get there.
So, yes research indicates that having multiple races and ethnicities and representatives from both genders helps students understand that all people are equal and have equal opportunities and knowledge to share. But, as a school administrator, I still make decisions on what's best for kids.
If you don't have the relationship with the hiring administrator to be abledto ask him these questions, then I would both agree with the suggestions that you just do your job to the best of your ability and not add to the drama, and don't assume that he has not been give a Directive and is just trying to to not lose his own job.
Hugs. I hope you're able to find peace soon--whatever that may look like.
|
|
cronewitch
Junior Associate
I identify as a post-menopausal childless cat lady and I vote.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:44:20 GMT -5
Posts: 5,979
|
Post by cronewitch on Jan 19, 2014 13:03:27 GMT -5
It sucks for those who have to work with or be taught by bad teachers.
I remember the 60s and my dad ranting about the union having to allow minority members. The union was all white and all male. To join your father or uncle would talk them into to letting you join. Suddenly they couldn't get sons and nephews in because they were having to allow minorities. Minorities were wanting promotions they didn't earn and were unqualified. They wanted to get what members had worked years to achieve handed to them. At about the same time they had to let women join. They hated women and sexually harassed them doing things like trapping them on ships and feeling them up before they could pass and hanging playboy pictures in lunch rooms. They talked like drunken sailors making life miserable for them.
My ex wanted me to join the union in 1977 or so but it was still pretty bad for women so I didn't want to deal with it. Now I have been working with them for 11 years and things have changed so much. I have never heard a cuss word spoken when they knew I was around and only a couple overhead jokes. There has been zero problems with sexual harassment so a pleasant place for women to work. Minorities outnumber whites but do exactly the same quality work. Promotions are based on merit but until she retired the head welder was a black women. The head electrician has worked almost 40 years and is a black male. When he was injured so couldn't walk much we made him an estimator so now he does both.
My point is sometimes change is hard but needs to done. In 40 years or so we may have a diverse teaching force that is color blind. I had a black male teacher in 4th grade so in the 50s, he was just another teacher, we had no black students. He was my first male teacher and I hadn't been around black people at all so probably good for me to be exposed to the idea they could be teachers.
Since you can't stop this just keep your head down and wait. Some of them will improve with time and before you know it the children will grow up and some will become teachers who earn a spot not get it handed to them.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2014 20:41:20 GMT -5
I find it very odd that a black who actually makes it thorough college would want to be a teacher. It's a low paying and thankless profession and only getting worse. If I had beaten the odds, you can rest assured I'd go for a high paying profession where I would be appreciated.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,141
|
Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2014 21:14:55 GMT -5
I find it very odd that a black who actually makes it thorough college would want to be a teacher. It's a low paying and thankless profession and only getting worse. If I had beaten the odds, you can rest assured I'd go for a high paying profession where I would be appreciated. Wow... I'm not so surprised by this...In my city, a black male has a 50% chance of graduating HS. (And also has a 50% shot of ending up in jail.) Statically, hispanic males are outperforming the African Americans... Teaching, though, in my state, traditionally is not a low paying job. Starting was 35-40K like a decade ago. They still got their raises, even when many other public sector workers didn't.
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 14,248
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jan 19, 2014 21:52:52 GMT -5
gira, I don't think that's what mid was "wow"ing at.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 10:17:07 GMT -5
"It's his first year, and he's not great but he'll get there"
I would hate for my son to be the guenni (sp?) pig for this teacher's trial and error, a person who got the job just for being a male. Hiring certain races based on students' races is discriminating both sides in my opinion. It is telling black people that only a black person can teach them because they are not the same as whites (good or bad way). It is discriminating against a white teacher who may be more qualified except for the color of his/her skin. Job placement should be based on qualifications alone. When you bring in race/sex, that is discrimination, period.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jan 20, 2014 10:29:34 GMT -5
"It's his first year, and he's not great but he'll get there" I would hate for my son to be the guenni (sp?) pig for this teacher's trial and error, a person who got the job just for being a male. Hiring certain races based on students' races is discriminating both sides in my opinion. It is telling black people that only a black person can teach them because they are not the same as whites (good or bad way). It is discriminating against a white teacher who may be more qualified except for the color of his/her skin. Job placement should be based on qualifications alone. When you bring in race/sex, that is discrimination, period. Kid's are the guinea pigs all the time. New teachers have to be hired and "broken in" New teaching methods have to be tested on someone New standards have to start somewhere. DD's 2nd grade teacher was fresh out of college. Not a joke when I say on average 5-8% of the words on the spelling list to study for next week's test were spelled wrong . In addition, the attempts at beginning to teach basic sentence structure were mediocre at best. DH and I had to keep track in a separate spreadsheet DD's scores and running GPA because assignments that were graded and given back to DD were marked as "lost" or given different grades then what was on the sheet. We even caught errors in how the tests and homework was graded. We knew from speaking with other parents (and eventually the principal) we were not an isolated case. We only got involved when DD's grades started to be impacted by the incorrect scoring. Now three years later that same teacher is considered one of the better ones in the school for keeping kids on track. Did it suck she had to be "broken in" on DD's (and likely the next) class? Yes - but everyone has to start somewhere.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 10:34:03 GMT -5
I understand everyone has to start sonewhere but when you are hiring and you have a better candidate, you select the worse one just because he is a male, that is what i have an issue with.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2014 10:43:36 GMT -5
I understand everyone has to start sonewhere but when you are hiring and you have a better candidate, you select the worse one just because he is a male, that is what i have an issue with. That is why I am against Affirmative Action...the most qualified should always get the job. I don't care if you are black, white, male, female, etc...to give a less qualified candidate a job just because they are female or a minatory is insulting and completely wrong.
And I disagree with just accepting the person that is being broken in. God knows I don't want a surgeon who is in the process of being "broken in"!
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 14,248
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jan 20, 2014 11:09:10 GMT -5
I said the other person I considered had slightly more experience--not that they were the better candidate. I chose the best candidate. The original poster asked if there was research that supported hiring educators based on skin color. The research says the teacher has the Most impact on student learning, not curriculum, not specific instructional style, the teacher.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jan 20, 2014 11:09:39 GMT -5
I understand everyone has to start sonewhere but when you are hiring and you have a better candidate, you select the worse one just because he is a male, that is what i have an issue with. That is why I am against Affirmative Action...the most qualified should always get the job. I don't care if you are black, white, male, female, etc...to give a less qualified candidate a job just because they are female or a minatory is insulting and completely wrong.
And I disagree with just accepting the person that is being broken in. God knows I don't want a surgeon who is in the process of being "broken in"!
Which is one of the reasons why medicine is so much more expensive then education. New surgeons are shadowed by experienced surgeons who are ready to step in when needed until the "trainee" is now "experienced". One surgery I had I was informed in advance that either the "trainee" or the "expert" may be operating. It was the trainee's 60th something or other time doing this procedure. We don't have experienced teachers shadowing new teachers for years on end. At best, I think they get maybe one or two semesters worth of partial time in the classroom.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2014 11:29:52 GMT -5
I got none at all. I had a fantastic mentor when I did my student teaching and I still called him when I needed advice or help. My co-workers weren't about to help me. My first year I was pretty green, my second, not as, my third I had it down.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2014 11:30:51 GMT -5
Best advice ever. My mentor teacher said to ignore all the crap they teach you in Ed classes in college. Here's the stuff that really works!
|
|
garion2003
Familiar Member
Joined: Feb 20, 2011 15:48:25 GMT -5
Posts: 758
|
Post by garion2003 on Jan 20, 2014 15:29:09 GMT -5
I find it very odd that a black who actually makes it thorough college would want to be a teacher. It's a low paying and thankless profession and only getting worse. If I had beaten the odds, you can rest assured I'd go for a high paying profession where I would be appreciated. a "black" what?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 16:05:14 GMT -5
I understand everyone has to start sonewhere but when you are hiring and you have a better candidate, you select the worse one just because he is a male, that is what i have an issue with. and being male could make all the difference for a male student....I know my boys did and do much better with male teachers.....they have a very different style of teaching that is great for boys.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 16:08:10 GMT -5
I find it very odd that a black who actually makes it thorough college would want to be a teacher. It's a low paying and thankless profession and only getting worse. If I had beaten the odds, you can rest assured I'd go for a high paying profession where I would be appreciated. you really have no respect for teachers do you? people go into teaching because they want to make a difference...they care about more than the almighty dollar....and I am very thankful that there are people like that....not everyone can get a STEM degree
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2014 16:16:59 GMT -5
I know that some of the posters on this thread are teachers and have a different perspective, but I would take my kid out of any school or program that was hiring based on "diversity".
This forced diversity is not doing anyone any good. Frankly, I don't know why people are so hang up on it anyway, but that's a whole other thread.
I want the best person for the job, period.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 16:20:45 GMT -5
I know that some of the posters on this thread are teachers and have a different perspective, but I would take my kid out of any school or program that was hiring based on "diversity". This forced diversity is not doing anyone any good. Frankly, I don't know why people are so hang up on it anyway, but that's a whole other thread. I want the best person for the job, period. but the best person on paper doesn't necessarilly translate into the best person for the students.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 16:45:04 GMT -5
"The research says the teacher has the Most impact on student learning, not curriculum, not specific instructional style, the teacher. "
So then what? All black students go to black teacher, all whites to white, females to females, males to males and so on? What happens if a white female student is in a black male teacher's class? They cannot learn? That is why if you start basing the decision on gender or race you are discriminating.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2014 17:08:07 GMT -5
I know that some of the posters on this thread are teachers and have a different perspective, but I would take my kid out of any school or program that was hiring based on "diversity". This forced diversity is not doing anyone any good. Frankly, I don't know why people are so hang up on it anyway, but that's a whole other thread. I want the best person for the job, period. but the best person on paper doesn't necessarilly translate into the best person for the students. I didn't say "on paper", I said the "best person, period"
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2014 17:26:02 GMT -5
I understand everyone has to start sonewhere but when you are hiring and you have a better candidate, you select the worse one just because he is a male, that is what i have an issue with. and being male could make all the difference for a male student....I know my boys did and do much better with male teachers.....they have a very different style of teaching that is great for boys. I have girls and we are white. Therefore I demand a white, female teacher
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 8, 2024 14:28:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 17:54:55 GMT -5
Miss T, try reading some of the research. Boys are the endangered species in the school setting. Education constantly fails them because teachers prefer sweet little girls who follow the rules and have good handwriting. Boys are often loud, challenging, and physical.
Of course, maybe your daughters are loud, challenging, and physical. In which case, the system may also be failing your daughters.
But let's not trivialize Chloe's real attempt to meet her students' diverse needs.
|
|