Reverse Discrimination (in Education) A Very Long Ramble

[zibazinski]

No, actually I am very aware of how hard it is for a minority to even get out of HS, let alone get into and graduate from college. Those that do rarely will pick a field that pays poorly and treats its employees poorly as well. We didn't all teach where there were unions to protect us against poor salaries and working conditions. It's even gotten worse since I retired. Hard to believe.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 20, 2014 17:54:55 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Miss T, try reading some of the research.  Boys are the endangered species in the school setting.  Education constantly fails them because teachers prefer sweet little girls who follow the rules and have good handwriting.  Boys are often loud, challenging, and physical. 

Of course, maybe your daughters are loud, challenging, and physical.  In which case, the system may also be failing your daughters.

But let's not trivialize Chloe's real attempt to meet her students' diverse needs. 

I wasn't replying to Chloe ..

And my oldest is not the quiet, sweet little girl...she has my personality so her teachers have always had to be in their toes. She is also very bright and has been failed by certain teachers but that had more to do with the teacher's skills versus the race or sex of the teacher

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jan 20, 2014 16:16:59 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I know that some of the posters on this thread are teachers and have a different perspective, but I would take my kid out of any school or program that was hiring based on "diversity".

This forced diversity is not doing anyone any good.   Frankly, I don't know why people are so hang up on it anyway, but that's a whole other thread.

I want the best person for the job, period. 

Lena, you know I like you and I will continue to like you when we're done with this conversation.
You made a pretty hurtful statement about teachers in the kindergarten thread. And now, when I'm trying to explain the actual perspective of hiring a teacher, you and bunnysmom are also making a pretty sweeping assumptions that I and other administrators are making shitty decisions just for fun. I understand you don't want to put your children in public schools, and that's okay.

In regard to this particular conversation:
I did hire the best person for the job of the applicants for that position. Are there better teachers out there than this guy? Yes, but they didn't apply.

The reality is, some times gender influences my decision.
Say I'm hiring for primary grades--If I have two finalists of equal qualifications and one is a rough and tumble, intense male and the other is a patient, nurturing male, then gender doesn't come into it. I'd probably hire the patient, nurturing male. But if I have two teachers of equal qualifications, and one is male and one is female, the reality is at some point I have to think about how they approach students and primary students will react to their personalities. Sometimes gender influences personalities
Hiring, developing, and keeping good teachers is the most important part of my job.

And, just a general fyi, one of the reasons I come here is so I can hear opinions of those who do not immerse themselve in public education as I do. I don't want to live in a protected bubble and pretend that outside opinion is invalid. I do want to hear other opinions. But, don't assume I am idiot just because I work in public education. I'm an idiot because...well we won't get into that

[whoisjohngalt]

Jan 20, 2014 19:32:04 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jan 20, 2014 16:16:59 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I know that some of the posters on this thread are teachers and have a different perspective, but I would take my kid out of any school or program that was hiring based on "diversity".

This forced diversity is not doing anyone any good.   Frankly, I don't know why people are so hang up on it anyway, but that's a whole other thread.

I want the best person for the job, period. 

Lena, you know I like you and I will continue to like you when we're done with this conversation.
You made a pretty hurtful statement about teachers in the kindergarten thread. And now, when I'm trying to explain the actual perspective of hiring a teacher, you and bunnysmom are also making a pretty sweeping assumptions that I and other administrators are making shitty decisions just for fun. I understand you don't want to put your children in public schools, and that's okay.

In regard to this particular conversation:
I did hire the best person for the job of the applicants for that position. Are there better teachers out there than this guy? Yes, but they didn't apply.

The reality is, some times gender influences my decision.
Say I'm hiring for primary grades--If I have two finalists of equal qualifications and one is a rough and tumble, intense male and the other is a patient, nurturing male, then gender doesn't come into it. I'd probably hire the patient, nurturing male. But if I have two teachers of equal qualifications, and one is male and one is female, the reality is at some point I have to think about how they approach students and primary students will react to their personalities. Sometimes gender influences personalities
Hiring, developing, and keeping good teachers is the most important part of my job.

And, just a general fyi, one of the reasons I come here is so I can hear opinions of those who do not immerse themselve in public education as I do. I don't want to live in a protected bubble and pretend that outside opinion is invalid. I do want to hear other opinions. But, don't assume I am idiot just because I work in public education. I'm an idiot because...well we won't get into that

Chole, first - if I made a hurtful comment in the other thread, I am sorry. Can you please tell me what it was?

As far as this thread - I didn't say anyone is making shitty decisions just for fun. I said that I think when it comes to hiring - the best person should get the job. And I am not talking about just schools.

And for the record, the fact that I don't want to put my child in public school has nothing to do with teachers, but that's another thread in itself.

And I am not sure why you think that I think you are an idiot....I really don't even know how to respond to that....

[The Captain]

Jan 20, 2014 17:54:55 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Miss T, try reading some of the research.  Boys are the endangered species in the school setting.  Education constantly fails them because teachers prefer sweet little girls who follow the rules and have good handwriting.  Boys are often loud, challenging, and physical. 

Of course, maybe your daughters are loud, challenging, and physical.  In which case, the system may also be failing your daughters.

But let's not trivialize Chloe's real attempt to meet her students' diverse needs. 

SS - but (honest question) I thought there were studies that showed teachers (esp) females called on the boys in class more often and were more active in coaching them?  I remember reading about gender bias in college and being even more grateful my folks sent me to an all girls' school.

www.education.com/reference/article/gender-bias-in-teaching/

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jan 20, 2014 19:46:29 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Jan 20, 2014 19:32:04 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Lena, you know I like you and I will continue to like you when we're done with this conversation.
You made a pretty hurtful statement about teachers in the kindergarten thread. And now, when I'm trying to explain the actual perspective of hiring a teacher, you and bunnysmom are also making a pretty sweeping assumptions that I and other administrators are making shitty decisions just for fun. I understand you don't want to put your children in public schools, and that's okay.

In regard to this particular conversation:
I did hire the best person for the job of the applicants for that position. Are there better teachers out there than this guy? Yes, but they didn't apply.

The reality is, some times gender influences my decision.
Say I'm hiring for primary grades--If I have two finalists of equal qualifications and one is a rough and tumble, intense male and the other is a patient, nurturing male, then gender doesn't come into it. I'd probably hire the patient, nurturing male. But if I have two teachers of equal qualifications, and one is male and one is female, the reality is at some point I have to think about how they approach students and primary students will react to their personalities. Sometimes gender influences personalities
Hiring, developing, and keeping good teachers is the most important part of my job.

And, just a general fyi, one of the reasons I come here is so I can hear opinions of those who do not immerse themselve in public education as I do. I don't want to live in a protected bubble and pretend that outside opinion is invalid. I do want to hear other opinions. But, don't assume I am idiot just because I work in public education. I'm an idiot because...well we won't get into that

Chole, first - if I made a hurtful comment in the other thread, I am sorry. Can you please tell me what it was?

As far as this thread - I didn't say anyone is making shitty decisions just for fun. I said that I think when it comes to hiring - the best person should get the job. And I am not talking about just schools.

And for the record, the fact that I don't want to put my child in public school has nothing to do with teachers, but that's another thread in itself.

And I am not sure why you think that I think you are an idiot....I really don't even know how to respond to that....

This part from the kindergarten thread: And if I had to decide whether my kid should be going to K or not, I would be very pissed if it was determined by any given test or I had to take a word of a teacher or anyone else.

My interpretation of this comment is that you have a complete disregard for the professional opinions of educators. I didn't comment on this in the other thread because I'm not sure you mean it to the extreme that I feel like it comes across as. But combining it with this thread, I decided to ask you babu it it. In regard to making decisions about enrollment, the OP of this thread and the kindergarten one were curious about the validity of the administrator and of the teacher respectively.  

In enrollment, For example, if I had the parent of a 9th grader come in and demand his child be put in calculus and I didn't have the Appropriate test scores or the approving opinion of a higher level math teacher, then I would not let the student into the calculus class. End of discussion.  I seldom make a decision based on one favorable piece of evidence. Sometimes,just because a parent wants something, doesn't make it the best decision. 

Which intertwines with hiring decisions discussed in this thread. Teaching is such a holistic craft; so much goes into hiring decision. It most certainly was not just you who alluded to "just hire the best person", and I was trying to give an example of how in one specific instance, gender did come into play in my final decision. I could explain the entire thought process and list of qualifications of both final candidates, but I was trying to answer the topic of the thread and give another perspective. Then I got chastised--which doesn't surprise me here. 

The idiot comment was a just me trying to keep the mood light. Educators do get a lot of flack just for their existence. It happens in a lot of threads here, and I don't know if everyone realizes that we have feelings too.   At some point the insinuation that people working in schools are ridiculous gets frustrating. 

Anyway, for you and anyone else still participating, thanks for the conversation. I do appreciate it. 

[whoisjohngalt]

Jan 20, 2014 21:36:40 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jan 20, 2014 19:46:29 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Chole, first - if I made a hurtful comment in the other thread, I am sorry. Can you please tell me what it was?

As far as this thread - I didn't say anyone is making shitty decisions just for fun. I said that I think when it comes to hiring - the best person should get the job. And I am not talking about just schools.

And for the record, the fact that I don't want to put my child in public school has nothing to do with teachers, but that's another thread in itself.

And I am not sure why you think that I think you are an idiot....I really don't even know how to respond to that....

This part from the kindergarten thread: And if I had to decide whether my kid should be going to K or not, I would be very pissed if it was determined by any given test or I had to take a word of a teacher or anyone else.

My interpretation of this comment is that you have a complete disregard for the professional opinions of educators. I didn't comment on this in the other thread because I'm not sure you mean it to the extreme that I feel like it comes across as. But combining it with this thread, I decided to ask you babu it it. In regard to making decisions about enrollment, the OP of this thread and the kindergarten one were curious about the validity of the administrator and of the teacher respectively.  

In enrollment, For example, if I had the parent of a 9th grader come in and demand his child be put in calculus and I didn't have the Appropriate test scores or the approving opinion of a higher level math teacher, then I would not let the student into the calculus class. End of discussion.  I seldom make a decision based on one favorable piece of evidence. Sometimes,just because a parent wants something, doesn't make it the best decision. 

Which intertwines with hiring decisions discussed in this thread. Teaching is such a holistic craft; so much goes into hiring decision. It most certainly was not just you who alluded to "just hire the best person", and I was trying to give an example of how in one specific instance, gender did come into play in my final decision. I could explain the entire thought process and list of qualifications of both final candidates, but I was trying to answer the topic of the thread and give another perspective. Then I got chastised--which doesn't surprise me here. 

The idiot comment was a just me trying to keep the mood light. Educators do get a lot of flack just for their existence. It happens in a lot of threads here, and I don't know if everyone realizes that we have feelings too.   At some point the insinuation that people working in schools are ridiculous gets frustrating. 

Anyway, for you and anyone else still participating, thanks for the conversation. I do appreciate it. 

Yes, I thought you were referring to that comment.  No, I absolutely do have complete disregard for professionals, but my point was that no one knows my child the way I do.  Also, I usually  try to get a second opinion on things that I might not understand or agree with.  And this would be no exception. 

I will tell you that I have  A LOT of respect and give a LOT of credit to people who work in public schools in this country.  I think they have it MUCH MUCH MUCH harder than teachers in  my old country.  MUCH!!!

I think OP is a great example of  how hard it is for teachers and administrators.  And bc there is so much more than goes into their decision, I would be very skeptical about certain recommendations.  Does it make sense or am I making even more of a hurtful statement?

I really really like you and I sincerely hope that I am not offending you or any other teacher/administrator here.  I don't think it's people who work in school that are ridiculous, but I do think that the whole system is. Very much so.

[Deleted]

" I chose an inexperienced teacher over a slightly more experienced teacher because my choice was male. "

"I did hire the best person for the job of the applicants for that position. Are there better teachers out there than this guy? Yes, but they didn't apply. "

My issue was with the first quote, where it says "because my choice was male". I am not saying qualifications on paper are everything. I am saying qualifications off the paper should not include race or gender, otherwise it becomes discrimination. I don't think you are doing with that intent at all and i am sure you are choosing who you believe to be the better candidate but when you factor in race or gender, it is discrimination. For example, if an employer chose hiring male engineers over female engineers because of the field being dominantly male, wouldnt you think that was discrimination?
All i am saying is male or female or race shouldnt factor into the decision. I understand there is research as some of you explained but unless the schools will be divided into classrooms by gender and race, hiring based on gender and race causes issues for one gender/race while fixing the other.

[giramomma]

Jan 20, 2014 17:54:55 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Miss T, try reading some of the research.  Boys are the endangered species in the school setting.  Education constantly fails them because teachers prefer sweet little girls who follow the rules and have good handwriting.  Boys are often loud, challenging, and physical. 

Of course, maybe your daughters are loud, challenging, and physical.  In which case, the system may also be failing your daughters.

But let's not trivialize Chloe's real attempt to meet her students' diverse needs. 

 I've read this to, SS..though  not in the research. Time runs 1-2 page articles about how education is failing boys every couple of months.

One of the reasons we are the private school is that they expect boys to be boys. We have 3 recesses a day from kindy-3rd grade and gym twice a week. Last year in 3rd grade, the teacher had a bunch of balance balls in the class room and encouraged all the kids to get on them, rock back and forth, etc while they were doing writing assignments. The kids really aren't expected to sit for long periods of time until they hit 4th grade, but that's because they are preparing the kids for middle school...

I also agree that having a male mentor can be VERY useful for a boy. Since DS has been 8, he's started preferring the company of DH to myself. It's fine. I get it. I was also thrilled that DS had a male preschool teacher. And I'm very, very proud that we are teaching our kids that both men and women can do anything they want to do, from being a SAHP to having a fairly successful career.

Chloe's attempt to meet her student's needs is different than what I'm going through. And I'm going to assume she won't hire a teacher that feels it's appropriate to leave the building for a coffee run (for 15 minutes) while high schoolers are working with the students (ie, no adult supervision.) I'm going to assume that Chloe won't hire a teacher that thinks it's acceptable to start class 10 minutes late and gives the students a pass when the arrive at class 15-20 minutes after class has supposed to start. I would also expect that Chloe would not hire a teacher that complained in front of students and parents about how much they worked and how hard they have it, and, it's all just too much and they have to cut back. I would expect that Chloe would not hire a teacher that doesn't even notice which kids are missing from class that day, or doesn't care the kids are leaving class and not returning with absolutely no explanation.

I would expect that admin type people would hire someone with some sort of level of professionalism. I would also expect that if a teacher displayed very unprofessional behavior, Chloe would not make excuses for the teacher and still insist that it's in the students' best interest to have a minority teacher just like them.

[Deleted]

I would also think for young black males, in inner city schools, seeing a black male teacher would be very good for them and show them that there are alternatives to what they see in the streets and possibly in their home. 

[raeoflyte]

Jan 20, 2014 23:34:32 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

" I chose an inexperienced teacher over a slightly more experienced teacher because my choice was male. "

"I did hire the best person for the job of the applicants for that position. Are there better teachers out there than this guy? Yes, but they didn't apply. "

My issue was with the first quote, where it says "because my choice was male". I am not saying qualifications on paper are everything. I am saying qualifications off the paper should not include race or gender, otherwise it becomes discrimination. I don't think you are doing with that intent at all and i am sure you are choosing who you believe to be the better candidate but when you factor in race or gender, it is discrimination. For example, if an employer chose hiring male engineers over female engineers because of the field being dominantly male, wouldnt you think that was discrimination?
All i am saying is male or female or race shouldnt factor into the decision. I understand there is research as some of you explained but unless the schools will be divided into classrooms by gender and race, hiring based on gender and race causes issues for one gender/race while fixing the other.

You are the only one bringing in segregation which is ridiculous and not helping to make your point.


Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards

[zibazinski]

We hired males, some were good, some were not so good. We hired blacks, some were good, some were not so good. Same with women and whites. I see wanting minorities to see some positive role models. That's a very good thing. Shortchanging education isn't the way to go. I don't want any child to be a part of some social experiment and I do not believe that black children learn better next to white children. Segregated schools turned out some very smart black children. Why? Because their parents emphasized education and behavior. Something all should aspire to regardless of color. I worked in a doctor clinic one summer. His great experiment? Hiring a black doctor because he thought, since he worked with a lot of minority patients, they would feel more comfortable with him. They wouldn't see him. Why? They were afraid affirmative action has turned out a bad doctor. So ALL black doctors should get lumped with this label? I don't think so. But the perception was there. I feel happier with an Asian doctor, especially a female. Why? Well, because first I prefer women over men doctors. Secondly, I'm sure she was raised by a tiger mom if not tiger parents and I know she's smart and driven. Am I right? Or is it my perception? She could have been last in her class for all I know.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 21, 2014 9:19:30 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

We hired males, some were good, some were not so good. We hired blacks, some were good, some were not so good. Same with women and whites. I see wanting minorities to see some positive role models. That's a very good thing. Shortchanging education isn't the way to go. I don't want any child to be a part of some social experiment and I do not believe that black children learn better next to white children. Segregated schools turned out some very smart black children. Why? Because their parents emphasized education and behavior. Something all should aspire to regardless of color. I worked in a doctor clinic one summer. His great experiment? Hiring a black doctor because he thought, since he worked with a lot of minority patients, they would feel more comfortable with him. They wouldn't see him. Why? They were afraid affirmative action has turned out a bad doctor. So ALL black doctors should get lumped with this label? I don't think so. But the perception was there. I feel happier with an Asian doctor, especially a female. Why? Well, because first I prefer women over men doctors. Secondly, I'm sure she was raised by a tiger mom if not tiger parents and I know she's smart and driven. Am I right? Or is it my perception? She could have been last in her class for all I know.

You know, I have the same perception of Asians. I just "assume" they are smart and driven. So far, my experience has proven me right but it is still wrong to assume such a thing.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

And gira, if I inherited one who did that, they'd either fix it immediately or I'd fire them. 
and I'm not just saying that. I really have fired teacher before and am working in another one right now. 

Im out out for the week, every one. Hope to be back Friday evening. 
Enjoy your day

[giramomma]

Jan 21, 2014 9:52:26 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

That's way beyond inexperience.  In a public school you are required to teach a certain amount of minutes so it would be breaking a lot of rules.  Has this happened before?  How was it dealt with then?

I know. But the program I work for isn't in the public schools, so there is no recourse. Yes, there is a employee handbook, but it's pretty generic...there is no outline/specification of professional behavior.

What's worse, is the director really, really likes the minority teacher. We (the other employees) haven't brought up the unprofessional behavior we have seen. The parents are going to the director, but I think the director is not hearing the parents. Some of that is a language issue, though.

[zibazinski]

Well, whenever I had an issue, I wasn't listened to by my principal. But she had to listen to parents so I always sent parents to her. More than one way to get things fixed. 

[Deleted]

"You are the only one bringing in segregation which is ridiculous and not helping to make your point. "

A couple of people made posts about research showing same race/gender makes it better learning environment. So that boils down to the same thing. A male teacher is better for male students in the class, how about female students then? A black teacher is better for black kids, then how about white kids? You cannot just choose a teacher because he/she does well with a certain group, then you are alienating the others purposefully. However, if you do not base the decision on gender or race and you pick the best candidate, at least you are not doing it on purpose (not discriminating). Discrimination is purposefully selecting a certain race or sex, is it not?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 20, 2014 10:29:34 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jan 20, 2014 10:17:07 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

"It's his first year, and he's not great but he'll get there"

I would hate for my son to be the guenni (sp?) pig for this teacher's trial and error, a person who got the job just for being a male.
Hiring certain races based on students' races is discriminating both sides in my opinion. It is telling black people that only a black person can teach them because they are not the same as whites (good or bad way). It is discriminating against a white teacher who may be more qualified except for the color of his/her skin. Job placement should be based on qualifications alone. When you bring in race/sex, that is discrimination, period.

Kid's are the guinea pigs all the time.

New teachers have to be hired and "broken in"
New teaching methods have to be tested on someone
New standards have to start somewhere.

DD's 2nd grade teacher was fresh out of college.  Not a joke when I say on average 5-8% of the words on the spelling list to study for next week's test were spelled wrong .  In addition, the attempts at beginning to teach basic sentence structure were mediocre at best.

DH and I had to keep track in a separate spreadsheet DD's scores and running GPA because assignments that were graded and given back to DD were marked as "lost" or given different grades then what was on the sheet.  We even caught errors in how the tests and homework was graded. We knew from speaking with other parents (and eventually the principal) we were not an isolated case. We only got involved when DD's grades started to be impacted by the incorrect scoring.

Now three years later that same teacher is considered one of the better ones in the school for keeping kids on track.  Did it suck she had to be "broken in" on DD's (and likely the next) class?  Yes - but everyone has to start somewhere.

My DD's kindergarten class has a fresh-out-of-college teacher.  Control of the classroom was an issue at the beginning of the year but seems to be tilting in the teacher's favor slightly now.  So if she stays, she'll probably do ok.  But yeah, it sucks to be the guinea pig/first year while she's figuring it out. 

[Deleted]

I have a son. Since research says male teachers are most suitable for boys, should i demand a male teacher? Then how about the rest of the students? A black male may want a black male teacher, a white female wants a white female teacher, and so on. So when you base your decision on race or sex, you open up to all kinds of issues. Any hiring decision, not just teaching, should be based on job related qualifications, which do not include race, sex or age, at least in this country. Any other way is considered discrimination.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2014 14:21:05 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

I have a son. Since research says male teachers are most suitable for boys, should i demand a male teacher? Then how about the rest of the students? A black male may want a black male teacher, a white female wants a white female teacher, and so on. So when you base your decision on race or sex, you open up to all kinds of issues. Any hiring decision, not just teaching, should be based on job related qualifications, which do not include race, sex or age, at least in this country. Any other way is considered discrimination.

there are no studies (that I know of) that say female students do not do as well with a male teacher as with a female teacher....so if the outcome is the same for girls but more favorable for boys, it's pretty easy to have a preference for a male teacher, all other things being equal.

[The Captain]

Just curious for those who may be in the know (mmhmm?).

When I used to volunteer in a nursing home the residents apparently had the right to demand only to be assisted by folks of the same gender and race as themselves if schedules would allow.  I've always wondered how that held up under EEOC etc.

[giramomma]

Jan 21, 2014 11:50:36 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Is the director aware that the classroom was left unattended?  That seems like write-up and performance plan territory to me . . .

Not sure. I know our family liaison HAS told the director about the parents' concerns of children's safety.

I also know that one of the families I work with went to the director concerned about how the other teacher was teaching their kids. I'm no longer teaching that family. The director has removed the children from my class and now teaches them one on one. The other teacher that leaves the classroom still has access to the kids. The director omitted things in the explanation of why, so I know the director is not being completely honest with me. I don't think I did anything wrong...as I recently saw the mom and she greeted me with open arms, literally. And, this particular mom has sat in my class and watched her kids for the past semester and has never raised any concerns to me other than her concerns about the other teacher.

It's very clear that the director favors this teacher. My only recourse, really would be to go to the board. I'm not sure what that's going to accomplish though. I sat on a board meeting, and frankly, I was super disappointed.

Most of the other teachers last a year or two, max. I've been there over 5 now. I'll just keep my head down and wait it out..

[Deleted]

I don't know how race would possibly hold up, but I do see the gender part.  Older people don't check their modesty at the front door of the nursing home.  If you were talking about bathing or assisting with toileting or even diapering, I can see where a same-sex gender preference would be honored, particularly among older women.  My ex-bf's father wouldn't let the ex-bf change his mother's diaper; it wouldn't be "seemly." 

As you said, it was "if schedule allowed" so a same-sex gender preference seems appropriate to allow.

[mmhmm]

Jan 21, 2014 14:52:05 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Just curious for those who may be in the know (mmhmm?).

When I used to volunteer in a nursing home the residents apparently had the right to demand only to be assisted by folks of the same gender and race as themselves if schedules would allow.  I've always wondered how that held up under EEOC etc.

I'm not that familiar with how nursing homes handle that prickly problem, the captain.  I know it's not acceptable in acute care hospital settings; however, I also know we would make adjustments to serve the needs of a patient if we felt it would be beneficial to that patient.  It's my guess nursing homes may well operate in the same way.  My mother just spent a couple of months in a rehab facility/nursing home and I didn't see any evidence, at all, of patients being able to refuse to accept care provided by a staff member of a given race, or gender.

[raeoflyte]

Jan 21, 2014 14:15:59 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

"You are the only one bringing in segregation which is ridiculous and not helping to make your point. "

A couple of people made posts about research showing same race/gender makes it better learning environment. So that boils down to the same thing. A male teacher is better for male students in the class, how about female students then? A black teacher is better for black kids, then how about white kids? You cannot just choose a teacher because he/she does well with a certain group, then you are alienating the others purposefully. However, if you do not base the decision on gender or race and you pick the best candidate, at least you are not doing it on purpose (not discriminating). Discrimination is purposefully selecting a certain race or sex, is it not?

No it doesn't.  Saying that minorities benefit from having teachers who look like themselves is NOT saying all of their teachers must look like them, or that they can't learn from non-minorities.  There are still prejudices in this country that have to be dealt with.  If you have a student body that is 33% minority, and you have 0 minority teachers that to me indicates an issue.  

No one on this thread has agreed with the idea that hiring decisions should be based solely on gender or race.  Pretending that neither exists doesn't make sense though either.  

[raeoflyte]

Jan 21, 2014 15:34:40 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 21, 2014 14:52:05 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Just curious for those who may be in the know (mmhmm?).

When I used to volunteer in a nursing home the residents apparently had the right to demand only to be assisted by folks of the same gender and race as themselves if schedules would allow.  I've always wondered how that held up under EEOC etc.

I'm not that familiar with how nursing homes handle that prickly problem, the captain.  I know it's not acceptable in acute care hospital settings; however, I also know we would make adjustments to serve the needs of a patient if we felt it would be beneficial to that patient.  It's my guess nursing homes may well operate in the same way.  My mother just spent a couple of months in a rehab facility/nursing home and I didn't see any evidence, at all, of patients being able to refuse to accept care provided by a staff member of a given race, or gender.

At my grandparents assisted living, a female aide has always done my grandmothers showers.  A male aide helped with my grandfathers showers when available.  My grandmother can request specific people to help her with her shower, but it is just a request and it depends on their staffing if that person can fit her in with their other duties on the shift.  

[mmhmm]

Jan 21, 2014 15:40:54 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jan 21, 2014 15:34:40 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm not that familiar with how nursing homes handle that prickly problem, the captain.  I know it's not acceptable in acute care hospital settings; however, I also know we would make adjustments to serve the needs of a patient if we felt it would be beneficial to that patient.  It's my guess nursing homes may well operate in the same way.  My mother just spent a couple of months in a rehab facility/nursing home and I didn't see any evidence, at all, of patients being able to refuse to accept care provided by a staff member of a given race, or gender.

At my grandparents assisted living, a female aide has always done my grandmothers showers.  A male aide helped with my grandfathers showers when available.  My grandmother can request specific people to help her with her shower, but it is just a request and it depends on their staffing if that person can fit her in with their other duties on the shift.  

That's the way I saw it where mother was, raeoflyte.  A given staff member could be requested but assignments depended on who was there and able to take on the chore, whatever the chore might be.  It's the same in an acute care facility.  I think all caregiving establishments try very hard to meet the needs of individual patients whenever possible.  Sometimes, though, it's just not possible.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 21, 2014 15:37:04 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jan 21, 2014 14:15:59 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

"You are the only one bringing in segregation which is ridiculous and not helping to make your point. "

A couple of people made posts about research showing same race/gender makes it better learning environment. So that boils down to the same thing. A male teacher is better for male students in the class, how about female students then? A black teacher is better for black kids, then how about white kids? You cannot just choose a teacher because he/she does well with a certain group, then you are alienating the others purposefully. However, if you do not base the decision on gender or race and you pick the best candidate, at least you are not doing it on purpose (not discriminating). Discrimination is purposefully selecting a certain race or sex, is it not?

No it doesn't.  Saying that minorities benefit from having teachers who look like themselves is NOT saying all of their teachers must look like them, or that they can't learn from non-minorities.  There are still prejudices in this country that have to be dealt with.  If you have a student body that is 33% minority, and you have 0 minority teachers that to me indicates an issue.  

No one on this thread has agreed with the idea that hiring decisions should be based solely on gender or race.  Pretending that neither exists doesn't make sense though either.  

It is an issue, but hiring a less qualified teacher just to get a black teacher in the school is wrong. That is just as wrong as hiring a less qualified white male because the good ole boys at the company would rather work with someone that looks just like them.

[Deleted]

"No one on this thread has agreed with the idea that hiring decisions should be based solely on gend..."

I didnt say solely. Being somewhat qualified is a given. But race/gender should not play any role is what i am saying. Because when it does, it is discrimination.

[Deleted]

"who look like themselves is NOT saying all of their teachers must look like them"

We are all human, discrimination is what happens when you care about what people "look like".