rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 23, 2011 13:35:21 GMT -5
Just to be clear the USA poll also showed the majority disapproved of unions for public workers and the poll in WI showed the majority favored Walkers position. It's funny how the politically motivated people use poll numbers when they come out in their favor but considered them worthless when they showed the majority disapproved of Obamacare. What would that be considered... ?
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 23, 2011 18:08:25 GMT -5
Just to be clear the USA poll also showed the majority disapproved of unions for public workers
No it didn't, it did show that 46% thought unions were generally more harmful to states while 45% tought they were helpful. I can think they are harmful but still support a person's right to belong to one.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 23, 2011 18:22:52 GMT -5
Just to be clear the USA poll also showed the majority disapproved of unions for public workers No it didn't, it did show that 46% thought unions were generally more harmful to states while 45% thought they were helpful. I can think they are harmful but still support a person's right to belong to one. Why are you pushing this nebulous poll when in the past you thought Polls were meaningless or not that accurate??? You said before you can look for a poll that favors your position on almost every political issue.. There are other issues besides Collective Bargaining in the Governors vs State Employees Unions....and is a non starter in some states who are trying to negotiate with the unions for changes to state workers pay and benefits.... In Wisconsin you can find a poll that favors Governor and then find another poll that favors the State Workers...a lot depends on the questioning in these polls as you know, I think??
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 23, 2011 20:42:27 GMT -5
Why are you pushing this nebulous poll when in the past you thought Polls were meaningless or not that accurate??? You said before you can look for a poll that favors your position on almost every political issue..
Because this poll is simple, "would you oppose a law in your state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin". The issue in WI isn't about pay and benefits, the unions have already agreed to take the cuts proposed by the governor. The only issue is the stripping of collective bargaining, if the governor drops that language the unions take the cuts and the dems return so their legislature can have a quorum. As I've stated, I have no problem with negotiating with the unions and believe there are a number of benefits that need to be negotiated away. But (IMO) this isn't the way to do it.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Feb 24, 2011 1:29:36 GMT -5
what kind of effing creeps would try to deny workers the right to collectively bargain .. perhaps you need to review history to realize what workers went through to get this right
some clowns want history to repeat itself
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 24, 2011 6:46:31 GMT -5
Because this poll is simple, "would you oppose a law in your state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin". Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3714&page=3#ixzz1EsNNaPLtHow can you have fair and collective bargaining when the state workers unions have the Dem legislators in their hip pockets? Do you know how many mega millions are contributed to the Dem's in Wisconsin by the state employees?? Check it out and is that accceptable collective bargaining to you? Not to the Governor or the republicans in Wiscosin. It is more like paying politicians to get the best deal you can for your union workers.. BTW there is not 100% agreement by the state unions in Wisconsin with the changes Governor Walker wants to implement excluding the collective bargaining issue. Outside Union representatives are pressuring the Wisconsin state unions to NOT agree to these insurance and pensions changes which could set a bad precedence for other state union workers..
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 24, 2011 8:17:12 GMT -5
Because this poll is simple, "would you oppose a law in your state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin". A simple question perhaps, but IMHO, most people are idiots. We really have no idea what "news source" they use to even form their opinion about what's going on in WI. If you only listen to either conservative or liberal news source, your perception will be skewed to one side or the other.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 24, 2011 8:24:24 GMT -5
Because this poll is simple, "would you oppose a law in your state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin". A simple question perhaps, but IMHO, most people are idiots. We really have no idea what "news source" they use to even form their opinion about what's going on in WI. If you only listen to either conservative or liberal news source, your perception will be skewed to one side or the other. I seriosly doubt that anyone who lives in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana or Illinois gives a hoot about this meaningless Poll....they want the dem legislators to perform their duties as they were elected to do. IMHO .. Wisconsin voters are also beginning the recall process for these AWOL dems..and worried about "pink slips" for their teachers and schools being shut down.....polls are very low priority right now in Wisconsin with all this going on..
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 24, 2011 8:31:11 GMT -5
A simple question perhaps, but IMHO, most people are idiots. .... How does one hold this opinion and support a system in which it is the people who select the leaders?
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 24, 2011 8:49:00 GMT -5
How does one hold this opinion and support a system in which it is the people who select the leaders? Good question. IMHO, the biased, party line idiots simply cancel each other out. It's us indy's that really pick the leaders and we're not idiots.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 24, 2011 9:05:24 GMT -5
How does one hold this opinion and support a system in which it is the people who select the leaders? Good question. IMHO, the biased, party line idiots simply cancel each other out. It's us indy's that really pick the leaders and we're not idiots. Good answer. One problem is that it is those biased, party line idiots who nominate the (unfortunately) only two viable candidates for president.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 24, 2011 9:18:27 GMT -5
Good question. IMHO, the biased, party line idiots simply cancel each other out. It's us indy's that really pick the leaders and we're not idiots. Good answer. One problem is that it is those biased, party line idiots who nominate the (unfortunately) only two viable candidates for president. And it's the electoral college that picks the president...not the idio....I mean, people.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 24, 2011 9:32:56 GMT -5
Good answer. One problem is that it is those biased, party line idiots who nominate the (unfortunately) only two viable candidates for president. And it's the electoral college that picks the president...not the idio....I mean, people. I thought it was the smart, unbiased, and good looking independents, capable of logical consistent thinking , who elected the leaders.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 24, 2011 9:34:29 GMT -5
And it's the electoral college that picks the president...not the idio....I mean, people. I thought it was the smart, unbiased, and good looking independents, capable of logical consistent thinking , who elected the leaders. Is the POTUS a leader or a puppet? ETA: I was thinking "pick our leaders" as in more the local/state sense since they generally have much more influence on our daily lives than the fed level.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 24, 2011 11:30:36 GMT -5
The teachers union is spending millions of dollars on parties, food and booze, while thousands of its members face possible layoffs amid a city budget crunch. The Daily News reported Thursday that records show the United Federation of Teachers spent nearly $1.4 million for the union's 50th anniversary part at the Hilton last year. The group also spent $278,417 on the annual Teachers Union Day ceremony at the Waldorf-Astoria, and $179,000 on training retreats at Connecticut resort. The spending spree also included $8,339 on a farewell party for Randi Weingarten, the union's former head. UFT President Michael Mulgrew told the newspaper that he's "not going to apologize for spending money to service our members." "These people are heroes dedicated to making a difference in the lives of our children," he said. "They never get the respect they deserve." Mulgrew got his own welcome party -- a $6,400 affair at a Brazilian steakhouse -- when he took over the leadership. The union has an annual pot of $126 million in member dues. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41758585/ns/local_news-new_york_ny/
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 24, 2011 11:44:31 GMT -5
A simple question perhaps, but IMHO, most people are idiots. We really have no idea what "news source" they use to even form their opinion about what's going on in WI. If you only listen to either conservative or liberal news source, your perception will be skewed to one side or the other. I seriosly doubt that anyone who lives in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana or Illinois gives a hoot about this meaningless Poll....they want the dem legislators to perform their duties as they were elected to do. IMHO .. Wisconsin voters are also beginning the recall process for these AWOL dems..and worried about "pink slips" for their teachers and schools being shut down.....polls are very low priority right now in Wisconsin with all this going on.. Here in Indiana, we are just waiting for one of our MIA Democratic Legislators to turn in a personal bill for lodging in Illinois as a "cost of doing Legislative business expense". Just wait. one of them will. They always do
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 24, 2011 12:02:50 GMT -5
In CA we are just waiting and watching to see what happens in Wisconsin .....but some local governments are forced to layoff state workers including firefighters and police as well as teachers because they were unable to reach any agreement on pensions in the not so Golden State.. The state unions in CA claim they have already given up enough and are mad as hell and wil not take it anymore.. and Jerry Brown is listening to them since they helped to elect him governor again for the second time in 30 years...
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 25, 2011 16:01:17 GMT -5
How can you have fair and collective bargaining when the state workers unions have the Dem legislators in their hip pockets? Do you know how many mega millions are contributed to the Dem's in Wisconsin by the state employees??
Just the Dems? Why is it the WI governor didn't attempt to bust the police, fire and state trooper unions? Oh yea because they have Gov Walker in their hip pocket. How can you have fair collective bargaining? Easy, tell the right leaning activist justices on the supreme court that their decision allowing unions and corporations to contribute to candidate's campaigns has nothing to do with free speech. Until the supreme court reverses their own stupidity you are just going to have to accept the union's right to free speech. Short of that the pubs in WI could introduce legislation putting contract negotiations into the hands of a 3rd party or perhaps elected citizen group. There are ways around it without taking away collective bargaining.
It is more like paying politicians to get the best deal you can for your union workers..
Agree, the same way corporations do it, it's what the supreme court calls freedom of speech.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 25, 2011 16:39:37 GMT -5
Your own man FDR could see the result of trying to use union labor for public employees back in 1937. It is a separate and completely different issue then corporate unions. While this is the hot button issue what should really scare us is the fact that politics can and do influence our supreme court as you mentioned. It seems like the biggest mistake in our countries design is that partisanship is allowed in our judicial or law enforcement system at all. But the founders probably didn't think we would allow two parties to form a monopoly on politics. The answer still requires a break from the strangle hold these two party have on our system.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 25, 2011 17:03:47 GMT -5
This is one of the best twisting of logic-- borders on logic contortion-- I've ever read. Democrat lawmakers are depriving the electorate of their vote. They sent their representatives to Madison to do their bidding, and Democrats are using illegal tactics to avoid voting. If they oppose it- vote "no". That's their option. But they can't just throw a temper tantrum and run away and threaten to stay gone until they are guaranteed to get their way.
As it stands, they have forced the lay offs of nearly 10,000 of the workers they are supposed to be standing up for. Layoffs will be effective in July, so if they come back and the bill passes-- it is possible the governor will have the resources to recind the layoffs and do what he has proposed all along-- save public employee union jobs.
Not that I think that should be important in a state that has a public employee for every 183 people, but I suppose in a down economy, you'd rather give people a hair cut than a beheading.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 25, 2011 17:05:18 GMT -5
Bottom line, friend- the Democrat law makers WILL have to bow to the plurality of voters who oppose what they're doing by 67% to 25%. There WILL be a vote on this bill. This bill WILL pass. Too bad, so sad.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 25, 2011 17:06:11 GMT -5
Actually, as far as I can tell they can't even be arrested.. or escorted to the building. Since it isn't actually an illegal tactic (as far as I can tell). Could be wrong though. Anyone want to quote state statute to prove me wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 17:56:52 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 25, 2011 18:20:31 GMT -5
Um, well they took a poll in the Wisconsin Assembly and the bill passed today before sleep deprived Democrats realized what was happening... news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unionsBecause the Democrat Senators are still on the run to avoid having a vote- something 67% of voters disapprove of as a tactic. Um, someone should tell Mr. Larson that he can come back and have his say. He just can't have his way. And that's what this little hissy fit is about. For ONCE- just ONE time- the TAX PAYERS are going to have THEIR WAY. And that scares the shit out of Democrats and liberals everywhere.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Feb 25, 2011 18:31:45 GMT -5
Dem senators refuse to do the people's business. Instead they thwart the legitimate activities of government.
I guess that stuff about 'elections' and 'representation' means absolutely nothing to them. Their actions are all about caving in to the special interests and ignoring the will of the people.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 25, 2011 18:33:08 GMT -5
But don't take my word for it- someone at the LA Times has figured out it's not about schools, or education, or even the teachers. It's about the nefarious Democratic Party money laundering scheme that's been going on for decades. They protect the public employee unions, the public employee unions give to the Democratic Party, which in turn protects the public employee unions. This is about how the Democratic Party manages to siphon off taxpayers money and convert it to political contributions to their party-- and it's about STOPPING it. www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-0225-labor-analysis-20110225,0,4640305.story Union battle in the Midwest a pull for political powerRepublican governors are going up against organized labor, hitting at the heart of the Democratic Party, which depends heavily on union money and manpower:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:04:30 GMT -5
Yes republicans voted... that was not a poll... ??
Where are you finding this 67%? ... You won't print your source? i'm going to have to think you're making it up...
And EVERYTHING i've read says that Wisconsin taxpayers DO NOT have a majority saying they support union killing measures... did you read my link?
Uh... i think it was Shep Smith the other day who explained best about how it isn't really about the shortfall...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 19:05:41 GMT -5
Unions are like a cooperation of PEOPLE... verses a corporation..... why is it OK for corporations, governed by profits, to give money to politicos, but it is not ok for a cooperation of PEOPLE to give? ....
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Feb 25, 2011 19:08:44 GMT -5
It is illegal for a corporation to make a political contribution to a candidate.
You really did swallow the Kool Ade, didn't you?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 25, 2011 19:14:26 GMT -5
It is illegal for a corporation to make a political contribution to a candidate. You really did swallow the Kool Ade, didn't you? *blinkblink* I could have SWORN this is what Citizens United was about. Or did you just miss that, V?
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