UPDATE Page 2 - WWYD: Serious Kids situation

[swasat]

I need some opinions on how to handle this. This might be long.

Background: Our next door neighbors moved in about a year ago and have kids the same age as ours, same genders too. A 9 yr old boy and a 6 yr old girl. All kids go to same school and have become great friends over the last year. The neighbors are overall nice people, just different from us. We get along nicely. 

The problem: Their is little to no supervision on the kids. They both work, sometimes on the weekends too and the kids have a 21 year old baby sitter come in. Their kids have every single toy imaginable under the sun, their house looks like Toys R Us threw up and their is absolutely no restriction on tv, electronics or anything at all. The boy (DS's friend) is obsessed with video games and wants to become a WWE wrestler. Fine by us, we have no issues with that. The problem is the child ONLY wants to play xBox, Wii, or some game on kindle fire or some other game on his computer, or watch Minecraft or Call of Duty. The result is that he is very physical and can get violent. There have been multiple warnings from the school that both the kids have an attention span of barely 5 minutes (yes I know that. The neighbor told me herself) and that the kids have trouble following any directions or disciplinary actions. They simply refuse to listen.

Both kids have TV in their rooms and no parental controls on any channels (yes, the neighbor told me. They believe in exposing kids early to everything) Their is no limit to their watching tv and that has resulted in DD watching some really odd documentaries for her age (think late night programs on sex on the History channel) that has resulted in me banning any sleepovers in their house.

Basically, those kids have to just ask for something and it shows up for them, age appropriate or not. They both have their own xBox, Wii, PS3, Kindle fires, iPads, IPods, Nintento DS, laptops and TV. Yes....one each of those in each of their rooms upstairs. So all screen time is spent away from parents eyes who are usually downstairs.

BIGGER PROBLEM: I got to know from DS yesterday that his friend got a real gun from his parents for Christmas Apparently, their dad goes hunting and has multiple hunting rifles of his own. The rifles are kept in the dining room. The boy asked his parents if he could have one of his own and bang, Santa brought it for him!! Bullets, cartridges and all!

Somehow I am scared to death after hearing this. Real rifles in a home where there is zero supervision from the parents. Two children who are over hyper and have trouble following directions. A household environment where there are no rules and no restriction and no expectations. (The kids have been told college is not required at all. So both the kids, as of now, plan to do something that requires no studying and hard work.) Why do I think this might lead to a disaster? A 9 year old hyperactive boy has no business having access to rifles. 

We already restrict play times between the kids to about an hour a day during school days and sometimes more on the weekend. We don't want to kill the friendship between the kids, but we do want to be vigilant parents. Now DH is of the opinion we need to restrict it more. Its simply not sitting well with us how much access these kids have to dangerous stuff. And also how the lack of rules are effecting their overall behavior.

Moreover, most mass shootings by young people have shown they had free access to violent videos etc. I just don't want to leave all this to chance and cross my fingers. Its not something I take lightly. 

So tell me....WWYD? Would I restrict playtime even more? Cut off the playtimes entirely? Talk to the parents (I don't want to do that. Its their decision what to do with their own kids) ??

[whoisjohngalt]

You are not going to like my answer, but I wouldn't let my kids be friends with them.

Or....I would only allow them to hang out at our house.  I wouldn't allow them to go to the friends' house at all.

[Deleted]

Heck no way, all meet ups at my house. You are lucky that their are at the ages they are, no teen ansgt for mom and dad telling who you can hang out with. They will find other friends.

[swasat]

Dec 26, 2013 9:52:04 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

You are not going to like my answer, but I wouldn't let my kids be friends with them.

Or....I would only allow them to hang out at our house.  I wouldn't allow them to go to the friends' house at all.

Heck, I like your answer!! Thats what I am inclining towards. 

I just want assurance I am not overreacting.

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2013 9:52:04 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Or....I would only allow them to hang out at our house.  I wouldn't allow them to go to the friends' house at all.

This!

I would only allow the friendship if the kids would hang out at your place under you or your husband supervision.

[swasat]

DH is already of the opinion he doesn't want our kids over there. He also wants to restrict playtimes. Maybe couple of times a week at our house and then see how it goes. 

[cronewitch]

I would if a brave person call child protective services. The guns need to be locked up unless at a rifle range for target practice or used by licensed hunters on a hunt. I like guns and my dad had a gun cabinet full it was locked but we knew where the key was. We weren't allowed to play with them but did get target practice and hunted when old enough for a license and had safety lessons. So I am not anti gun but I am anti guns in the hands of young children and left where guest children can get them or angry children etc.

I wouldn't allow your untrained children in homes with unlocked guns. If brave I would inform the parents the guns need locked up and then call children's protective services.

Protecting your children from the harm in the house to them is important but protecting the others is too. This boy or girl could end up taking guns to use for school shootings, sticking up gas stations or gang violence.

[swasat]

Crone, the guns are apparently locked up but in full display. Still, how much does it take to break the glass door and take one out. Specially from a boy who thinks WWE is his calling in life?

[milee]

Bad situation. I'd have a very frank discussion with the parents about how the guns are stored. Are the guns locked up? Do the kids have the combination? What are their procedures for safe handling? 

That would be completely unacceptable to me as a parent if the guns are unlocked or if the children have access to the safe. No matter how well behaved, smart, etc kids are, that's not OK. I'd be much less worried about a school shooting situation than I would be about an accident with the guns.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Kids at my house.

I'd also be talking to his parents about how they handle gun storage/ownership.  Even if the kid was the most angelic person on the planet accidents can happen, majority of shootings in the home are accidental.  You also do not want the kid coming over one day when the parents are off work to show off his new gun on your property.   I'd want to know the guns are locked up, bullets are stored in a separate locked location and the kid has no access to the guns unless they are being taken out for a hunting trip.

If dad looks at me like I have three heads, the friendship is over.  No going over there and no coming over to my house.  No way I want a nine year old running around my property with a gun.

[milee]

Dec 26, 2013 10:02:55 GMT -5 swasat said:

Crone, the guns are apparently locked up but in full display. Still, how much does it take to break the glass door and take one out. Specially from a boy who thinks WWE is his calling in life?

We were typing at the same time, but if this is their idea of gun safety, their idea sucks. Unless this is impregnable glass with a real lock (and not just a display case, which is what it sounds like), this is not secure storage.

Having them play at your house is a good start, but I'd also find out if they have any hand guns or plan to get any.  Hand guns are easy to conceal in a jacket and would be great fun to bring to show a friend.

[thyme4change]

I hope those guns are in a gun safe.  But, I agree - I would not allow my kids over there.  You can play it off as you just want the kids to be home and "They can come over here, if you want."  

 - Yes, you can play, but they need to come here because I'm going to bake cookies and I want you here to eat them.

 - Yes, they can come over here, but you can't go there because you were gone at school all week, and I miss you.

etc.

We have weened our children from friends that we didn't like.  The situation wasn't as bad as you describe, but they also weren't close neighbors.  We have very few limits on some friends, and a real time structures around other friends.  My kids don't seem to notice, and they seem to drift away from those friends.  I suspect your kids will get over these kids in a matter of time.  They are likely to be big trouble in a few years, and your kids might find them distasteful.

Good Luck.

[thyme4change]

Dec 26, 2013 10:02:55 GMT -5 swasat said:

Crone, the guns are apparently locked up but in full display. Still, how much does it take to break the glass door and take one out. Specially from a boy who thinks WWE is his calling in life?

I was typing when you wrote this.  What kind of case are they in?  If it is a designed gun case with glass doors, the glass is usually tempered.  He would have to do something pretty crazy to get that glass broken.  I don't think this is a random curio cabinet with one of those locks that you can pick with a hairpin.  

[swasat]

Dec 26, 2013 10:05:43 GMT -5 milee said:

Dec 26, 2013 10:02:55 GMT -5 swasat said:

Crone, the guns are apparently locked up but in full display. Still, how much does it take to break the glass door and take one out. Specially from a boy who thinks WWE is his calling in life?

We were typing at the same time, but if this is their idea of gun safety, their idea sucks. Unless this is impregnable glass with a real lock (and not just a display case, which is what it sounds like), this is not secure storage.

Having them play at your house is a good start, but I'd also find out if they have any hand guns or plan to get any.  Hand guns are easy to conceal in a jacket and would be great fun to bring to show a friend.

All info I have about guns and display is from DS. I have been to their house, but I never bothered to look in their formal dining room. But I trust DS a lot. He is a very honest kid and at times he has refused to play with the other kid because he wanted to wrestle and DS didn't want to. 

So, honestly, I don't know if the guns are safely locked up or not, or if the bullets are stored separately from guns.

Looking at how careless the parents are and how they don't ever put restrictions of any kind on the kids, I doubt they gave enough thought to it. The gun wouldn't have been gifted if they had thought it through :/ 

[Shooby]

   I don't find the "every toy imaginable" to be a problem necessarily.  People raise their kids differently.  I know lots of kids who have every toy imaginable and other kids who have to do sun up to sun down chores and the kids seem to be nice kids in either case.  So, that to me isn't necessarily a red flag.  Heck, my kids pretty much have every toy imaginable and electronic doo dad but I did draw the line at TVs in their bedrooms.

  Anyway, I do think the guns in the dining room is very disturbing.  I would go next door and have a chat with the parents and ask them how they secure their firearms.  If they balk at that  or give you the "my dad didn't lock up his guns when I was a kid and I won't either' speech, then no way would I let my kids continue to go over there.

[NancysSummerSip]

Somehow I am scared to death after hearing this. Real rifles in a home where there is zero supervision from the parents. Two children who are over hyper and have trouble following directions. A household environment where there are no rules and no restriction and no expectations. (The kids have been told college is not required at all. So both the kids, as of now, plan to do something that requires no studying and hard work.) Why do I think this might lead to a disaster? A 9 year old hyperactive boy has no business having access to rifles.

Because you have good gut instincts as a parent.

I'd keep my involvement with this whole family at a minimum, if it was me. The parents don't exactly strike me as good role models, and their kids are heading for a world of personal and economic hurt in the future. And the lack of supervision and rules is the scariest part. Rules and boundaries suck, but they are what make us responsible, thoughtful, caring humans who don't randomly hurt each other. These kids don't sound like they have any.
I like the idea of parents giving their kids freedom of choice and expression; don't get me wrong here. But there's freedom of expression/choice is one thing. Freedom to make decisions minus the guidance to let your minor child know the consequences and impact on those around them is something else.

And FWIW, my dad collected guns, and did display them. In a glass-front cabinet. But the guns had trigger locks. And the bullets were stored elsewhere in the house, in a safe.

[milee]

Dec 26, 2013 10:13:22 GMT -5 swasat said:

Dec 26, 2013 10:05:43 GMT -5 milee said:

I doubt they gave enough thought to it. The gun wouldn't have been gifted if they had thought it through :/ 

Not sure you can automatically conclude this (although the signs definitely point this way.) I think guns in a house with kids is a very bad idea. My husband is a competitive shooter.

Our compromise is that all guns are always locked in the safe.  Ammunition is locked separately.  Neither kid has access to either safe, ever.  He is very religious with training and safety.  I am not thrilled, but I think this is a reasonable method and would be comfortable if a I thought the neighbor was this regimented and trustworthy.  If not, no way would my kid go over there.

When my kids were little and we'd sometimes share sitters or nannies with people, I'd always ask about guns in the house.  It was a no-go for me.

[Gardening Grandma]

Definitely don't let your kids go over there.  If the neighbor brings it up, you can tell them that you don't feel comfortable because of the gun issue.

Try to encourgae friendships with other children.  Good luck!  It's a tough situation.

[sesfw]

I just want assurance I am not overreacting.

You are NOT over-reacting.  You are protecting your children and teaching them the difference between acceptable and un-acceptable behavior.  Having the neighbor kids over at your home and not allowing un-acceptable things there might help the neighbor kids also.

I would definitely call CPS about the gun cabinet.  If for no other reason than to have something on record if/when something bad happens.

Good luck and hopefully you can 'parent' the other children also.

[Deleted]

I would talk with the parents. Ask them if the rifle is locked up?

Even if you don't let your son go over there anymore, your question could save lives.

[Deleted]

Arm your kids...

When thinking about the guns in the house, just think about all the other houses you don't have insight into.  Most probably have guns somewhere too.

Go have an adult conversation and verify if the guns are locked up and does the children have access to the key.  If the guns are properly stored, don't worry about it.

[Formerly SK]

Even before you mentioned the guns I was thinking you should start to wean the relationship.  Every toy on the planet and no supervision?  Just wait until they are in middle school and the kids discover cigarettes and pot.  Nope.  I'd start doing subtle things to end the friendship altogether.

And absolutely no going to their house anymore.  Hell, I'd probably call the cops just to give them an FYI.  Like, "Hi, my next door neighbor has several guns that aren't locked up and his kids are unsupervised all day.  What should I do?" sort of thing.

I weaned a friendship between a neighborhood boy (7) and my kids this past year.  He swears regularly and doesn't listen to his mother.  Call me overprotective, but I saw nothing good out of it so my kids suddenly became too busy to play for a few months. 

[Shooby]

Dec 26, 2013 10:19:36 GMT -5 milee said:

Dec 26, 2013 10:13:22 GMT -5 swasat said:

I doubt they gave enough thought to it. The gun wouldn't have been gifted if they had thought it through :/ 

Not sure you can automatically conclude this (although the signs definitely point this way.) I think guns in a house with kids is a very bad idea. My husband is a competitive shooter.

Our compromise is that all guns are always locked in the safe.  Ammunition is locked separately.  Neither kid has access to either safe, ever.  He is very religious with training and safety.  I am not thrilled, but I think this is a reasonable method and would be comfortable if a I thought the neighbor was this regimented and trustworthy.  If not, no way would my kid go over there.

When my kids were little and we'd sometimes share sitters or nannies with people, I'd always ask about guns in the house.  It was a no-go for me.

I agree. There are lots of people who are very responsible hunters and competitive shooters. But, if so, they are going to welcome assuring other parents that their weapons are properly secured.

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 26, 2013 10:22:11 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I would talk with the parents. Ask them if the rifle is locked up?

Even if you don't let your son go over there anymore, your question could save lives.

I wouldn't.

In my limited experience parents usually get uber defensive and nothing good comes out of it.

I don't like the whole set up, not just the guns in that house. 

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2013 10:28:12 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Dec 26, 2013 10:22:11 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I would talk with the parents. Ask them if the rifle is locked up?

Even if you don't let your son go over there anymore, your question could save lives.

I don't like the whole set up, not just the guns in that house. 

That is a separate issue.


Asking a friend's parents if they have their guns locked up is a question that needs to be asked.

[sheilaincali]

Sit your kids down and explain to them the dangers of playing with guns and what they should do if they happen to come across one.   All parents should have this talk with their kids.  We told DS if he ever saw a gun out at a friends house that he was too leave immediately and come home. 

I agree with the others- no going to their house anymore. All play dates should be at your house. Be honest if the kids parents question it and tell them the truth - you are more comfortable having the kids at your house where you can keep an eye on them and leave it at that.

We own guns but no bullets. I hate guns and am very uncomfortable around them (handled one just enough to pass the marksmen test at basic training and then not again). DH's dad was one of the founders and one of the first commanders of the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol team. When he died DH inherited all of his guns- his half sister didn't want them and his two half brothers are ex-cons and can't own them.  We have his match guns and some of the prize guns he won at different competitions. DH keeps them for sentimental reasons since his dad died when he was 5.

DS is aware of the guns but has never had any interest in them. BUT- still having no bullets we keep them locked in a steel gun case with a huge vintage US Army padlock on it with one key that is stamped "Do Not Duplicate" on it. The damn case weighs so much the last time we moved it (empty) it took four grown men to move it. 

I've steered DS away from friendships that I didn't feel were in his best interest and towards other kids that I thought would make good friends.  Now as a 15 year old he seems to be making good decisions regarding his friendships so I must not have screwed him up too bad yet.  

[Shooby]

  I agree that we should all absolutely educate our children about gun dangers.  However, for parents that don't secure their guns, they are placing the RESPONSIBILITY squarely on the shoulders of children when in reality it is they who need to be responsible to secure the guns.

[giramomma]

I can't add anything more than what everyone else has said.

You might find, though, that by placing the requirements that play only be at your house that the neighbhor children might grow very bored and not want to come over as much anymore. Their friendships might cool down a little bit, which doesn't sound like such a bad thing.

I'd also likely encourage play dates and what not with other kids to help the process along.

[alabamagal]

If only allow the kids to play at your house, and you do not allow unrestricted access to video games (probably violent adult video games also), it is very unlikely that the neighbor kids would spend much time at your house, and will probably find other friends to play with.  This would be a good thing, and better than just saying "You can't be friends with the neighbor's friends".

[busymom]

I agree with SK. If these kids have no limits before age 10, they are probably going to be the "high school druggies", or worse, as they get older.

I agree with no playing at their house. AND, in winter when their kids come to your house, supervise as the kids are removing their jackets to make sure they're not sneaking anything over that you wouldn't approve of.

Facilitate your kids making friends with other kids at their school, even if you have to do extra driving to have playdates. BTW, keep an eye on those neighbor kids when they're playing in the yard. A summer or two ago, we noticed neighbor kids on their deck with a rifle "taking aim" at something in the nearby woods. And, no, it's not legal to shoot firearms in our community.