Mom of 13yo on vent fights for 2nd opinion- hate on display

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 11, 2014 20:09:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jahi's heart will stop beating soon. They can't keep this going on forever.

Forever, no. Soon, probably not. Right now the dead woman in Texas
has been kept on machines for about 6 weeks which is longer than Jahi
has been on machines. I'm not sure how far Texas is going to push it,
but potentially it could be anywhere up to about 25 weeks if FT is roughly
39 weeks. Unless the fetal heartbeat gives out I expect they are trying for
at least 6 to 7 months in the womb if not longer.

My small bit of research turned up no one really knows how long a body
could potentially be kept on machines without any brain stem or higher brain
functions. It is unknown. Both this, Jahi McMath, and the Texas case are
going to push the boundaries of what we know.

I'd love for reason to prevail, but I anticipate a race to push the limits. 
If Texas pulls off a minimum of 12 to 15 weeks total I expect Jahi's family
 won't stop at less.

The difference between the 2 is that the TX woman is being kept as an incubator as long as hr body allows.  That means she was getting waaaaay more medical support from the beginning, be it in the terms of nutrients, hormones, etc. to only support the pregnancy, right from the beginning of her death.  Jahi never got any of this.

It is not to say that this is going to work for her either.  No one has kept a pregnant woman on a vent this long.  

[zibazinski]

I was so hoping this update was the family finally letting that poor child go. I pray she cannot feel any of this.

[mmhmm]

I think the big difference between the case in Texas and little Jahi's case is the presence of life.  The fetus in Texas is alive, even if its mother is not.  Life support given to the mother, in that case, is actually being given to the living fetus.  In Jahi's case, there is no living being to support.  Poor Jahi has passed away.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 12, 2014 9:28:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think the big difference between the case in Texas and little Jahi's case is the presence of life.  The fetus in Texas is alive, even if it's mother is not.  Life support given to the mother, in that case, is actually being given to the living fetus.  In Jahi's case, there is no living being to support.  Poor Jahi has passed away.

Hopefully the fetus is alive.  There was a period of time where it received no oxygen and I have to wonder as to the impact on it.

I do wonder about the TX law as to limits.  This woman was 14 weeks pregnant when she died and the doctors are not sure that she can exist for the 20 weeks on life support to produce a fully developed baby.  What happens if someone is 4 weeks...or 1 week?

[mmhmm]

Jan 12, 2014 11:14:00 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jan 12, 2014 9:28:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think the big difference between the case in Texas and little Jahi's case is the presence of life.  The fetus in Texas is alive, even if it's mother is not.  Life support given to the mother, in that case, is actually being given to the living fetus.  In Jahi's case, there is no living being to support.  Poor Jahi has passed away.

Hopefully the fetus is alive.  There was a period of time where it received no oxygen and I have to wonder as to the impact on it.

I do wonder about the TX law as to limits.  This woman was 14 weeks pregnant when she died and the doctors are not sure that she can exist for the 20 weeks on life support to produce a fully developed baby.  What happens if someone is 4 weeks...or 1 week?

I'm not sure, either, Mich.  This is another precedent-setting case and one fraught with difficulties.  As near as I can tell from what I've read, the fetus is alive at this point.  It's certainly not developed enough to be viable if delivered now, and there's no way of knowing what damage was done to the fetus when mother died.

[wvugurl26]

I have issues with the Texas law. We don't know what damage was done to the fetus during the period of oxygen deprivation. The husband does not feel he could handle a special needs baby on his own. That should be his decision to make not the state's. The state will not be the one responsible for caring for that baby. An undoubtedly obscene amount of money has been spent to keep the mother as an incubator to this point and even more will be spent if the baby has issues related to the oxygen deprivation. The mother spelled her wishes out and some stupid state law is interfering with that. The people who created it should be the ones to fund it.

[chiver78]

Jan 12, 2014 13:09:40 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

I have issues with the Texas law. We don't know what damage was done to the fetus during the period of oxygen deprivation. The husband does not feel he could handle a special needs baby on his own. That should be his decision to make not the state's. The state will not be the one responsible for caring for that baby. An undoubtedly obscene amount of money has been spent to keep the mother as an incubator to this point and even more will be spent if the baby has issues related to the oxygen deprivation. The mother spelled her wishes out and some stupid state law is interfering with that. The people who created it should be the ones to fund it.

as best I can tell from various articles online, the husband is also responsible for the cost of keeping her on life support as well - insurance won't cover care for a dead person. the state is absolutely out of line in this case. so sad for all involved.

[wvugurl26]

So then when this is all said and done the husband will probably be declaring bankruptcy with those kind of medical bills. I think it's an absolutely awful law. My opinion on using her as an incubator might be different if she'd been further along. I don't think anyone's been kept on a vent this long.

[chiver78]

my opinion on using her as an incubator wouldn't change, as this is against her well-documented wishes.

but yeah, bankruptcy is probably in her husband's future.

[wvugurl26]

It is against her wishes and I don't like that. However, it would be less obtrusive to me if she'd been closer to term. The law still sucks but if she was closer to term the costs would be less and it could be possible to keep her alive long enough. In this situation there is a high possibility the mom's body could still give up before the baby could survive on its own.

Obviously this law was written by people who have no experience in these matters.

[chiver78]

fair enough. and yes, most of the laws relating to women's reproduction have been written by people with zero experience with it.

[Opti]

I did some internet research earlier today and found two cases of babies
born of brain dead mothers who were in the womb about 3 months post
brain death/machine time.
The most recent case is from Hungary and there has been no media
follow up to say whether the child is doing well or not. The baby was
born at just over 3lbs. so a good life free of medical issues is far from
assured.

The second case happened in the US in 2005. The baby was born smaller
than 3 lbs. and later died five or six weeks later due to heart failure. This
case was slightly complicated by the fact Mom had been dying of cancer.
According to the doctors the cancer never crossed the placenta barrier
but it may have impacted the overall ability of the body to be a host
while on machines. If I am remembering correctly, they delivered the baby
at 27 weeks as the veins and blood pressure in the mother were collapsing
in an alarming fashion.

I will post some URLs in a bit for those who are interested.

[Deleted]

Er yeah no thanks Opti ..... just kidding.

[thyme4change]

Jan 11, 2014 20:09:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jahi's heart will stop beating soon. They can't keep this going on forever.

Forever, no. Soon, probably not. Right now the dead woman in Texas
has been kept on machines for about 6 weeks which is longer than Jahi
has been on machines. I'm not sure how far Texas is going to push it,
but potentially it could be anywhere up to about 25 weeks if FT is roughly
39 weeks. Unless the fetal heartbeat gives out I expect they are trying for
at least 6 to 7 months in the womb if not longer.

My small bit of research turned up no one really knows how long a body
could potentially be kept on machines without any brain stem or higher brain
functions. It is unknown. Both this, Jahi McMath, and the Texas case are
going to push the boundaries of what we know.

I'd love for reason to prevail, but I anticipate a race to push the limits. 
If Texas pulls off a minimum of 12 to 15 weeks total I expect Jahi's family
 won't stop at less.

I can't find an article that confirms the woman in Texas is brain-dead.  If she is vegetative, then her brain is in a different state than Jahi's, with no electrical impulses.  Does the presence of the ventilator prove that she is brain dead, even when the family have not said that the doctors have declared her brain dead?

[Opti]

You don't have to read them nutty. That's why I decided to give an overall
summary instead of URL snippets across various posts.


One of my huge issues with the Texas case is cost. I think estimating the
cost of keeping a body on machines as an incubator at a very low $1000/day
is over-whelming enough. I am against the law whether it dumps the cost on
the family of the brain dead woman or the tax-payers. For a three month
womb extension, roughly 13 weeks, I think that works out to roughly $91,000
just for forced womb costs. It could effectively become legalized forced
bankruptcy except for in the rarest of cases where someone had exceptional
insurance or likely were in the top 10% of income earners. And it doesn't stop
there. There will be the likely increased after birth medical costs whether the
child dies months after birth or becomes part of the 70% less than healthy
outcomes for those infants born at 27 weeks or less.


I am offended that some right wing laws are about forcing someone to do
what right wingers want AND as a kicker forcing them to bear the cost of
a decision they wouldn't make as well. Some right wingers apparently are
against laws(government/other people's wishes) only if its not something
they agree with. They are OK with driving up medical costs and forcing BK
and lifetime expenses of a unhealthy child on someone if it gives their right to life
panties a happy feel.

[Opti]

I can't find an article that confirms the woman in Texas is brain-dead. If she is vegetative, then her brain is in a different state than Jahi's, with no electrical impulses.

Yes, she may not be at the same state as Jahi. I'd have to look.
We really need something like brain dead type I and brain dead type II
to make it obvious the difference between brain death that includes
total death of the brain stem and brain death that has some to all brain
stem function remaining.

It is highly likely both the cases I mentioned included at least partial
functioning brain stems which supposedly makes some functioning easier.
Not sure if I made notes on the URL I found that included a discussion
on heart and lung function and why the heart doesn't really need assistance
from any part of the brain to keep going.

[thyme4change]

If I was that guy - I would sue the state to reimburse my out of pocket costs.

[Opti]

Jan 12, 2014 17:56:05 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

If I was that guy - I would sue the state to reimburse my out of pocket costs.

 It might be one of the reasons he's spending money and time in court now.
I haven't seen any concrete pricing on any of this, but articles put it
between $1000 to $10,000/day and higher.


Even if he won its likely to be a somewhat hollow and costly victory.
The state probably won't pay all the court costs and if the child incurrs
serious medical costs after birth because of its gestational history plus
age/condition at birth ... when do you sue for that?

[Tennesseer]

thyme4change -

Family of brain-dead pregnant woman will sue over forced life-support in Texas

Lawyers for relatives of Marlise Munoz, who is 20 weeks pregnant and hooked to a ventilator, plan legal action over Texas law requiring life support until fetus can be delivered. Her parents and husband say they want to unhook the machines keeping her brain-dead body alive.


Family of brain-dead pregnant woman will sue over forced life-support in Texas

[mmhmm]

I can't find an article that confirms the woman in Texas is brain-dead. If she is vegetative, then her brain is in a different state than Jahi's, with no electrical impulses. Does the presence of the ventilator prove that she is brain dead, even when the family have not said that the doctors have declared her brain dead?

From what I've read, the husband of this woman has not granted permission to the hospital to speak to the issue.  Until he does, the hospital's hands are tied and we won't know whether she's actually brain dead, or in a vegetative state.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 12, 2014 17:49:14 GMT -5 Opti said:

You don't have to read them nutty. That's why I decided to give an overall
summary instead of URL snippets across various posts.


One of my huge issues with the Texas case is cost. I think estimating the
cost of keeping a body on machines as an incubator at a very low $1000/day
is over-whelming enough. I am against the law whether it dumps the cost on
the family of the brain dead woman or the tax-payers. For a three month
womb extension, roughly 13 weeks, I think that works out to roughly $91,000
just for forced womb costs. It could effectively become legalized forced
bankruptcy except for in the rarest of cases where someone had exceptional
insurance or likely were in the top 10% of income earners. And it doesn't stop
there. There will be the likely increased after birth medical costs whether the
child dies months after birth or becomes part of the 70% less than healthy
outcomes for those infants born at 27 weeks or less.

You need to triple those costs, at least.  My hospital room, minus ventilator was $3000/day last year.  I can't imagine vent care being less.

[Opti]

Looks like my idea of brain death I and brain death II is spot on.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death

Brain death is the irreversible end of brain activity (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life) due to total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of brain oxygenation. It should not be confused with a persistent vegetative state. Patients classified as brain-dead can have their organs surgically removed for organ donation. Even after brain death, the working of the heart might continue at a slow pace, but there will be no respiratory effort.

Brain death is used as an indicator of legal death in many jurisdictions, but it is defined inconsistently. Various parts of the brain may keep living when others die, and the term "brain death" has been used to refer to various combinations. For example, although a major medical dictionary says that "brain death" is synonymous with "cerebral death" (death of the cerebrum), the US National Library of Medicine Medical Subject Headings (MeSH) system defines brain death as including the brainstem. The distinctions can be important because, for example, in someone with a dead cerebrum but a living brainstem, the heartbeat and ventilation can continue unaided, whereas, in whole-brain death, only life support equipment would keep those functions going.

Traditionally, both the legal and medical communities determined death through the end of certain bodily functions, especially respiration and heartbeat. With the increasing ability of the medical community to resuscitate people with no respiration, heartbeat, or other external signs of life, the need for a better definition of death became obvious. This need gained greater urgency with the widespread use of life support equipment, which can maintain body functions indefinitely, as well as rising capabilities and demand for organ transplantation.


Also, a radionuclide cerebral blood flow scan that shows complete absence of intracranial blood flow must be considered with other exams - temporary swelling of the brain, particularly within the first 72 hours can lead to a false positive test on a patient that may recover with more time.[12] Zack Dunlap in 2008 had a false positive of this type, likely due to temporary cerebral edema.

[Opti]

Newsmax URL on Hungarian baby born in 11/2013.

www.newsmaxhealth.com/Health-News/brain-dead-mom-organ-donation-unusual-births/2013/11/14/id/536641

[Tennesseer]

Jan 13, 2014 10:39:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Newsmax URL on Hungarian baby born in 11/2013.

www.newsmaxhealth.com/Health-News/brain-dead-mom-organ-donation-unusual-births/2013/11/14/id/536641

Were her organs donated before or after the child was delivered?  It really does not say.

[Opti]

Tenn, two days after to a total of four people.
Here's a Huffpo article that touches on the Hungarian case plus
the 2005 Viriginia birth where the baby died 6 weeks later.
(Not really discussed in the article, Google should find it though.)

My laptop is really struggling today. Perhaps you can pick off the URL
and post. Google 'baby born to brain dead mom' it will be one of the
top articles with the headline 'Baby born to Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months
After..."


The notable thing about the article is it notes this length or time is
not unprecedented and references the 2005 Virginia baby birth and
subsquent death.

[Opti]

I'm going to type in long URLS so no guarantee they will work today.

The nbcnews one is interesting because it states in 2010 German researchers
only found 30 cases of babies being born to brain dead moms dating back to 1982.
It also notes 70% of babies born at 25 weeks survive, but the risk for
health problems is high. Sorry, for the inaccurate remembering in an earlier post.




www.nbcnews.com/id/47157430/ns/health-womens_health/t/brain-dead-mom-gives-birth/twins


The actual case in this article I think the mom's body was only on the ventilator for
about a month.

[Opti]

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/baby-born-brain-dead-mother-3-months_n_4274609.html

[Tennesseer]

Jan 13, 2014 11:01:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

Tenn, two days after to a total of four people.
Here's a Huffpo article that touches on the Hungarian case plus
the 2005 Viriginia birth where the baby died 6 weeks later.
(Not really discussed in the article, Google should find it though.)

My laptop is really struggling today. Perhaps you can pick off the URL
and post. Google 'baby born to brain dead mom' it will be one of the
top articles with the headline 'Baby born to Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months
After..."


The notable thing about the article is it notes this length or time is
not unprecedented and references the 2005 Virginia baby birth and
subsquent death.

Got ìt and read ìt.  Here ìs the link:

Baby Born To Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months After Woman's Declared Death

[Tennesseer]

We are typing over each other Opti .

[Opti]

This right to life crap won't stand the test of time. They will finally realize economically no state can afford this.

If what someone posted is true, Texas isn't the one paying for this.
The law forces people to do this and pay for the priviledge of having
the mom's body on machines and then of course you get stuck paying
for any subsequent bills 18 years or perhaps for life if you end up with
a child who will need lifetime support.


True conservatives wouldn't like this law. I almost wonder if any are
left, because they don't seem to post on P&M that I can tell. What
we tend to call the religious right or the right wing IMO would spend any
amount of money on making sure fetuses are born and the US military
remains more funded than anywhere else on the planet. They are pro-life
especially if they(MO) can force you to incur the cost. Not all, but many
IMO are vehemently pro-birth to the exclusion of having any pro-life stances
for anyone under 9 months of age. I think a more accurate name would be
pro forced birth because life is much more than months 1 to 9.