Mom of 13yo on vent fights for 2nd opinion- hate on display

[chiver78]

Jan 8, 2014 10:32:01 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 8, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I still don't understand why this thread title says "hate on display"? Oh, right- the patient was black. And nothing can just happen to a black person. It's gotta be hate.

the comments on the original article were very hateful. read them. 

edit: nevermind. I can't find it in-thread now, and don't want to be accused of stirring the pot.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

There's a lot more to this than meets the eye- it was not a "routine tonsillectomy" but a tonsillectomy and throat surgery to correct sleep apnea. So, already this young lady was suffering with a condition that can stop her heart and lungs. And the sad thing is that her sleep apnea was likely related to her readily apparent obesity, and it could well be that complications from her surgery were exacerbated by her weight as well. I'm kind of surprised they didn't advise her to lose weight as a first resort before surgery? I wonder what the standards of practice are re: the girl's weight. What are the ethics there? The hospital may have some liability if they proceeded without regard to the patient's fitness for surgery?

[thyme4change]

Did the family say "tonsillectomy" (I didn't watch any of their press conferences, or any video from them, except I accidentally saw where she said 'I know my child is alive because she is urinating.') Or did they say "removing tonsils and the press said tonsillectomy? I'm not 100% unclear on where the misunderstanding/misinformation started.

Jan 8, 2014 10:43:45 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

There's a lot more to this than meets the eye- it was not a "routine tonsillectomy" but a tonsillectomy and throat surgery to correct sleep apnea. So, already this young lady was suffering with a condition that can stop her heart and lungs. And the sad thing is that her sleep apnea was likely related to her readily apparent obesity, and it could well be that complications from her surgery were exacerbated by her weight as well. I'm kind of surprised they didn't advise her to lose weight as a first resort before surgery? I wonder what the standards of practice are re: the girl's weight. What are the ethics there? The hospital may have some liability if they proceeded without regard to the patient's fitness for surgery?

There are cases of sleep apnea that are not improved by weight loss.  However, they seem like a fairly small minority (I think the article I read said about 15% of the time weight loss does not improve sleep apnea.)  It seems to me like it is worth trying.  You can always have the surgery later.  I'm sure losing weight is much more difficult if you can't sleep, but it seems like a much more reasonable course of action.

[EVT1]

Umm- that's generally how a malpractice suit proceeds- what was the duty of care and was it violated is the first question asked.

Who knows?  The hospital may have done everything right- but if you go by what the mom says and the buckets of blood.... That's what the legal system is for when it comes to our health care system- want to keep the insurance companies in it (malpractice carriers) then lawsuits go right along with them.

[justme]

Jan 8, 2014 4:12:49 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

A child is of no economic value to a family, quite the contrary, unless, of course, you are using said child for welfare benefits. So there would be no loss of income to a family. Think of the people who have said how financially well off they'd be if they didn't have children? Emotionally? Can you ever put a price on the loss of a child? As far as economics for an adult, that's what life insurance is for. If 250k can't replace your income, get life insurance. I'm surprised before putting that child through a nasty surgery, it wasn't suggested that she lose weight? My mom was told she had to lose 50 pounds before the doctor would do her surgery. Of course if she hadn't been heavy to begin with, her surgery wouldn't have been necessary and she wouldn't have died from complications from it but that's another story. Makes me wonder if this child would not have died had she not have had a surgery that perhaps could have been avoided with a loss of weight? DF has been told his snoring would diminish if he lost some weight. Unfortunately, his weight is all in his stomach so exercise is the best way for that. He's skinny minny otherwise.

Considering from several sources - including the girl's family - the girl did not follow post-op instructions (talking, laughing, possibly eating) with encouragement from the family to not do so, I'm betting losing weight was suggested but not followed. Especially if the statement that she had recently been given permission to ride the bus alone to her favorite ice cream shop is true.

[justme]

Jan 8, 2014 10:58:03 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Did the family say "tonsillectomy" (I didn't watch any of their press conferences, or any video from them, except I accidentally saw where she said 'I know my child is alive because she is urinating.') Or did they say "removing tonsils and the press said tonsillectomy? I'm not 100% unclear on where the misunderstanding/misinformation started.

Jan 8, 2014 10:43:45 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

There's a lot more to this than meets the eye- it was not a "routine tonsillectomy" but a tonsillectomy and throat surgery to correct sleep apnea. So, already this young lady was suffering with a condition that can stop her heart and lungs. And the sad thing is that her sleep apnea was likely related to her readily apparent obesity, and it could well be that complications from her surgery were exacerbated by her weight as well. I'm kind of surprised they didn't advise her to lose weight as a first resort before surgery? I wonder what the standards of practice are re: the girl's weight. What are the ethics there? The hospital may have some liability if they proceeded without regard to the patient's fitness for surgery?

There are cases of sleep apnea that are not improved by weight loss.  However, they seem like a fairly small minority (I think the article I read said about 15% of the time weight loss does not improve sleep apnea.)  It seems to me like it is worth trying.  You can always have the surgery later.  I'm sure losing weight is much more difficult if you can't sleep, but it seems like a much more reasonable course of action.

I'm quite certain they did. I remember that's what drew me into the case (for lack of a better word) to begin with. I had a tonsillectomy 2 years ago and started bleeding 6 days after surgery.

Just went back and read the original article in the OP - quotes the mother saying "She was not dead when I brought her here on Dec. 9 for a routine tonsillectomy. I put her in their hands, now they want to wash their hands of her."

[thyme4change]

Thanks Justme - I knew the surgery was being misrepresented - I just couldn't tell who was at fault.

I wonder if they really didn't understand or if they were trying to manipulate the public.  Either way - I agree with you that it backfired for them, because now we are wondering if they were lax, or they are stupid, or they are manipulative.  

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I still don't understand why this thread title says "hate on display"? Oh, right- the patient was black. And nothing can just happen to a black person. It's gotta be hate.

Umm, paul.  That's already been explained to you.  The "hate on display" referred to the comments following the article.  Here - you can read the explanation again.

thyme4change Avatar
Jan 2, 2014 at 09:12 thyme4change said:
I think they have had 6 different doctors in there - half of them not affiliated with the hospital. Second opinion is fine. Third opinion is fine. But this couple has had a litany of doctors agree, except one GP with no surgical experience, who isn't denying any of the tests, but challenging the definition of "brain dead."

Jan 2, 2014 at 10:36 AtlanticCoastofFloridaPaul said:

Yeah- they're just in strong denial. I didn't know that half the doctors were unaffiliated with the hospital- guess I missed that. I can certainly relate to their denial. It's a very hard thing that has happened to them. We have a family member who will not acknowledge her husband's advanced dementia. She maintains his doctor has only said he has 'mild cognitive decline' and that he is 'forgetful' or gets 'confused sometimes'. The reality is that he is just barely this side of drooling in a chair. This family is clearly trying to cling to the hope that their daughter who has died might somehow be 'revived' and they don't understand, or cannot accept that it's just not going to happen. I don't see where the "hate" comes in. I guess the race baiters will never miss an opportunity to exploit a situation to divide us all along racial lines and line their own pockets, or satisfy their need to tear down our country and our culture.

Jan 2, 2014 at 10:56 mmhmm said:
Perhaps, paul, you need to read the comments of idiots reacting to the article in the OP. That's where the "hate" came in. There were some pretty nasty comments made.

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 11:03:41 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Umm- that's generally how a malpractice suit proceeds- what was the duty of care and was it violated is the first question asked.

Who knows?  The hospital may have done everything right- but if you go by what the mom says and the buckets of blood.... That's what the legal system is for when it comes to our health care system- want to keep the insurance companies in it (malpractice carriers) then lawsuits go right along with them.

I'll tell you this:  In all my years, I've never seen a bucket in an ICU, CCU, NNICU, or PICU.  Nobody handed that woman a bucket.  Of that, I can assure you.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 8, 2014 11:28:56 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 8, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I still don't understand why this thread title says "hate on display"? Oh, right- the patient was black. And nothing can just happen to a black person. It's gotta be hate.

Umm, paul.  That's already been explained to you.  The "hate on display" referred to the comments following the article.  Here - you can read the explanation again.

Jan 2, 2014 at 10:36 AtlanticCoastofFloridaPaul said:

Yeah- they're just in strong denial. I didn't know that half the doctors were unaffiliated with the hospital- guess I missed that. I can certainly relate to their denial. It's a very hard thing that has happened to them. We have a family member who will not acknowledge her husband's advanced dementia. She maintains his doctor has only said he has 'mild cognitive decline' and that he is 'forgetful' or gets 'confused sometimes'. The reality is that he is just barely this side of drooling in a chair. This family is clearly trying to cling to the hope that their daughter who has died might somehow be 'revived' and they don't understand, or cannot accept that it's just not going to happen. I don't see where the "hate" comes in. I guess the race baiters will never miss an opportunity to exploit a situation to divide us all along racial lines and line their own pockets, or satisfy their need to tear down our country and our culture.

Jan 2, 2014 at 10:56 mmhmm said:
Perhaps, paul, you need to read the comments of idiots reacting to the article in the OP. That's where the "hate" came in. There were some pretty nasty comments made.

Jan 2, 2014 was a very forgetful day for some.

[lynnerself]

Jan 8, 2014 11:31:21 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 8, 2014 11:03:41 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I'll tell you this:  In all my years, I've never seen a bucket in an ICU, CCU, NNICU, or PICU.  Nobody handed that woman a bucket.  Of that, I can assure you.

I believe in some cases they want to collect the blood to measure it, to determine the extent of bleeding.
This may be where the "bucket" came from.

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 13:35:18 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

Jan 8, 2014 11:31:21 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'll tell you this:  In all my years, I've never seen a bucket in an ICU, CCU, NNICU, or PICU.  Nobody handed that woman a bucket.  Of that, I can assure you.

I believe in some cases they want to collect the blood to measure it, to determine the extent of bleeding.
This may be where the "bucket" came from.

Been there, done that, lynnerself.  Never did I give anyone a bucket.  We had small, plastic measuring cups (not that different, really, than a regular cup except they had marked measures on the side.  If you're measuring sputum, that's what you'll use.  Certainly, never a bucket!  If I'd ever thought I needed a bucket, the doctor would have been there if I'd had to go to his home and drag his arse out of bed!

[lynnerself]

This is the mothers statement.

They gave me a cup for her to bleed into and said it was normal. She bled more and more. I couldn’t keep up with it. I asked for help, they gave me a bigger bucket.

So I think it is possible they gave her a bigger container of some sort.

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 14:23:39 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

This is the mothers statement.

They gave me a cup for her to bleed into and said it was normal. She bled more and more. I couldn’t keep up with it. I asked for help, they gave me a bigger bucket.

So I think it is possible they gave her a bigger container of some sort.

It's certainly possible.  The "bucket" description just wasn't cutting it with me.  In this quote, she switches from cup to bucket.  I'm not buying anybody ever gave her a bucket.  I also can't imagine any PICU qualified nurse allowing a patient to bleed to the point someone "couldn't keep up with it".  That nurse's license is on the line, and considering this hospital has a pretty clear record of care,  I don't figure they had an unqualified nurse caring for a patient post-airway surgery.  A good deal of what's been said here strongly conflicts with my years of experience. It's possible it's just ignorance, or the exaggeration that often occurs in stressful situations.  Hard to say what's going on.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 8, 2014 14:38:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 8, 2014 14:23:39 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

This is the mothers statement.

They gave me a cup for her to bleed into and said it was normal. She bled more and more. I couldn’t keep up with it. I asked for help, they gave me a bigger bucket.

So I think it is possible they gave her a bigger container of some sort.

It's certainly possible.  The "bucket" description just wasn't cutting it with me.  In this quote, she switches from cup to bucket.  I'm not buying anybody ever gave her a bucket.  I also can't imagine any PICU qualified nurse allowing a patient to bleed to the point someone "couldn't keep up with it".  That nurse's license is on the line, and considering this hospital has a pretty clear record of care,  I don't figure they had an unqualified nurse caring for a patient post-airway surgery.  A good deal of what's been said here strongly conflicts with my years of experience. It's possible it's just ignorance, or the exaggeration that often occurs in stressful situations.  Hard to say what's going on.

Well as I may or may not have mentioned here before (I'm pretty sure I have) my mother and sister are RN's and they have told me that bleeding is the most common- and can, for  obvious reasons, be the most serious side effect when my son had this surgery.  They said to watch very carefully.  My son's procedure was out-patient- I still have all the literature-- it's extensive, but not overly complicated.  The first section is big, bold red letters on BLEEDING. According to this article from the UK on a teenager (18 so...but whatever) who died post-op from bleeding (aspiration of blood vomited up, really) states that, I presume at least in the UK the rate of death is 1 in 40,000.  To me, that is not insignificant.  I think about Soldier Field in Chicago- seats 61,500 and I have to ask myself whether or not I'd go in if I knew for certain someone was not coming out? And that's 1 in 61,500.  I was not able to find info about the rate of death in the US.

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE ARTICLE:  www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460097/Teenager-died-routine-tonsil-operation.html

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I have been golfing and fishing- mostly fishing- for almost two and a half weeks every day with and without the kids while on break. So, if I forgot something- sorry. My mind is pretty much mush right now. Still sharper than you libs, but not on my full game.

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 8, 2014 14:38:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

It's certainly possible.  The "bucket" description just wasn't cutting it with me.  In this quote, she switches from cup to bucket.  I'm not buying anybody ever gave her a bucket.  I also can't imagine any PICU qualified nurse allowing a patient to bleed to the point someone "couldn't keep up with it".  That nurse's license is on the line, and considering this hospital has a pretty clear record of care,  I don't figure they had an unqualified nurse caring for a patient post-airway surgery.  A good deal of what's been said here strongly conflicts with my years of experience. It's possible it's just ignorance, or the exaggeration that often occurs in stressful situations.  Hard to say what's going on.

Well as I may or may not have mentioned here before (I'm pretty sure I have) my mother and sister are RN's and they have told me that bleeding is the most common- and can, for  obvious reasons, be the most serious side effect when my son had this surgery.  They said to watch very carefully.  My son's procedure was out-patient- I still have all the literature-- it's extensive, but not overly complicated.  The first section is big, bold red letters on BLEEDING. According to this article from the UK on a teenager (18 so...but whatever) who died post-op from bleeding (aspiration of blood vomited up, really) states that, I presume at least in the UK the rate of death is 1 in 40,000.  To me, that is not insignificant.  I think about Soldier Field in Chicago- seats 61,500 and I have to ask myself whether or not I'd go in if I knew for certain someone was not coming out? And that's 1 in 61,500.  I was not able to find info about the rate of death in the US.

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE ARTICLE:  www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460097/Teenager-died-routine-tonsil-operation.html

Wait, paul!  Your son had a UPPP with additional tissue removal as an OUTPATIENT?!?  Really?!?  When was this - and WHERE?!?

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 16:02:24 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I have been golfing and fishing- mostly fishing- for almost two and a half weeks every day with and without the kids while on break. So, if I forgot something- sorry. My mind is pretty much mush right now. Still sharper than you libs, but not on my full game.

ROFL!  You might wish, but that doesn't make it so, paul.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 8, 2014 16:09:40 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 8, 2014 16:02:24 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I have been golfing and fishing- mostly fishing- for almost two and a half weeks every day with and without the kids while on break. So, if I forgot something- sorry. My mind is pretty much mush right now. Still sharper than you libs, but not on my full game.

ROFL!  You might wish, but that doesn't make it so, paul.

Oh, no- it's true.  I've been fishing and golfing- have the pics to prove it.  And since you're still liberal, I'm still sharper than you. 

[mmhmm]

I'm not a liberal, as you well know, and I really want to hear about your son's UPPP as an outpatient!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 8, 2014 16:08:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 8, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well as I may or may not have mentioned here before (I'm pretty sure I have) my mother and sister are RN's and they have told me that bleeding is the most common- and can, for  obvious reasons, be the most serious side effect when my son had this surgery.  They said to watch very carefully.  My son's procedure was out-patient- I still have all the literature-- it's extensive, but not overly complicated.  The first section is big, bold red letters on BLEEDING. According to this article from the UK on a teenager (18 so...but whatever) who died post-op from bleeding (aspiration of blood vomited up, really) states that, I presume at least in the UK the rate of death is 1 in 40,000.  To me, that is not insignificant.  I think about Soldier Field in Chicago- seats 61,500 and I have to ask myself whether or not I'd go in if I knew for certain someone was not coming out? And that's 1 in 61,500.  I was not able to find info about the rate of death in the US.

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE ARTICLE:  www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460097/Teenager-died-routine-tonsil-operation.html

Wait, paul!  Your son had a UPPP with additional tissue removal as an OUTPATIENT?!?  Really?!?  When was this - and WHERE?!?

Same tonsillectomy as the reported death in the UK article.  Sorry, I wasn't clear on that.  My sister assures me, btw, that the death rate in the US from a routine tonsillectomy is NOWHERE NEAR 1 in 40,000.  She said she'd be shocked if it was 1 in 100,000.  I'm still trying to find the US numbers.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

www.medicinenet.com/tonsillectomy/page3.htm

What happens before surgery?

In most situations the surgery is performed as an outpatient at either a hospital or a surgery center. In both facilities, quality care is provided without the expense and inconvenience of an overnight stay. An anesthesiologist will monitor the patient throughout the procedure. Usually, the anesthesiologist (or surgery staff) will call the night before surgery to review the medical history. If they are unable to reach the patient the night before surgery, they will talk with the patient the morning of the surgery. If the doctor has ordered preoperative laboratory studies, the patient should arrange to have these done several days in advance. The patient should arrange for someone to take them to the surgical facility, back home, and to spend the first night after surgery with the patient.

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 16:20:29 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

www.medicinenet.com/tonsillectomy/page3.htm

What happens before surgery?

In most situations the surgery is performed as an outpatient at either a hospital or a surgery center. In both facilities, quality care is provided without the expense and inconvenience of an overnight stay. An anesthesiologist will monitor the patient throughout the procedure. Usually, the anesthesiologist (or surgery staff) will call the night before surgery to review the medical history. If they are unable to reach the patient the night before surgery, they will talk with the patient the morning of the surgery. If the doctor has ordered preoperative laboratory studies, the patient should arrange to have these done several days in advance. The patient should arrange for someone to take them to the surgical facility, back home, and to spend the first night after surgery with the patient.

Paul!  Get a grip, man!  This little girl's surgery was NOT a tonsillectomy.  Removing her tonsils was the least complicated thing they did!

[justme]

Jan 8, 2014 16:13:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 8, 2014 16:08:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Wait, paul!  Your son had a UPPP with additional tissue removal as an OUTPATIENT?!?  Really?!?  When was this - and WHERE?!?

Same tonsillectomy as the reported death in the UK article.  Sorry, I wasn't clear on that.  My sister assures me, btw, that the death rate in the US from a routine tonsillectomy is NOWHERE NEAR 1 in 40,000.  She said she'd be shocked if it was 1 in 100,000.  I'm still trying to find the US numbers.

One article gave a wide range for the US said anywhere from the low 4 figures to 100,000 something. I thought it was rather vague to have that big of a range. You'd think they'd have numbers on that. I've clicked on so many that I'm not sure which one to provide a link though.

[mmhmm]

Jan 8, 2014 16:51:07 GMT -5 justme said:

Jan 8, 2014 16:13:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Same tonsillectomy as the reported death in the UK article.  Sorry, I wasn't clear on that.  My sister assures me, btw, that the death rate in the US from a routine tonsillectomy is NOWHERE NEAR 1 in 40,000.  She said she'd be shocked if it was 1 in 100,000.  I'm still trying to find the US numbers.

One article gave a wide range for the US said anywhere from the low 4 figures to 100,000 something. I thought it was rather vague to have that big of a range. You'd think they'd have numbers on that. I've clicked on so many that I'm not sure which one to provide a link though.

It would also be important to filter out those who died from complications of anesthesia.  All surgeries bear risk.  Those utilizing general anesthesia bear more risk.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Death rates from a tonsillectomy are a moot point.  This surgery was NOT a simple tonsillectomy.

Any surgery where the first 24 hours after surgery are in the ICU have to (by logic) carry a much larger risk.

[lynnerself]

Dolan speaks again (tweets actually)

"Doctors are optimistic that her condition has stabilized and that her health is improving from when she was taken from" Children's Hospital Oakland"

www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Lawyer-Jahi-McMath-gets-feeding-tube-improving-5125917.php

Sorry, Dead people do not improve, no matter how optimistic their doctors are.

I honestly don't get this guy. I don't understand his agenda. I can't believe he really believes the stuff he is saying.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 9, 2014 2:06:28 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

Dolan speaks again (tweets actually)

"Doctors are optimistic that her condition has stabilized and that her health is improving from when she was taken from" Children's Hospital Oakland"

www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Lawyer-Jahi-McMath-gets-feeding-tube-improving-5125917.php

Sorry, Dead people do not improve, no matter how optimistic their doctors are.

I honestly don't get this guy. I don't understand his agenda. I can't believe he really believes the stuff he is saying.

If dead people do not improve, then how does one explain zombies?

[zibazinski]

I know a lot of posters don't believe in a higher being but I'm hopeful that that poor child is beyond and somewhere safe from this abuse.

[justme]

SMH. I sincerely hope, yet doubt, that her younger sisters are being kept away from the sight of their sister decomposing. It will be horrible enough for the adults involved, but the kids? Sigh.