Mom of 13yo on vent fights for 2nd opinion- hate on display

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2014 12:08:32 GMT -5 justme said:

But my gut says that if a suit arises from this, their insurance company is going to pay the parent off.
 

Part of me thinks it'd have to be a really large pay out to make this family go away. The uncle already stated that he thinks $30M *might* be enough.

I think the cap in California is $250k. Once I learned that, I realized why the family was fighting so hard and insisting that she is still alive. Bigger payday than if she is dead.

[justme]

Exactly txsbbtc, that was pointed out in a another article. Think I linked it a while back.

Even with the cap, they've been trying to fight the law on whether brain death is death, I wouldn't put it past them to fight the non-economic damages law too.

[DVM gone riding]

Jan 6, 2014 19:07:00 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I don't believe any malpractice jury or judge would ever rule in the family's favor. They have ruined any bit of evidence.

They will probably get the 250k for wrongful death (that does actually seem low but not bad) but nothing more. I agree with wrongful death and punitive damage limits. AND I don't think this family deserves it but 250k seems very low. Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? My own umbrella insurance goes to 1 mil I would think the limit would be more like 500k--similiar to what you would expect from a life insurance policy

[billisonboard]

Jan 7, 2014 16:03:09 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

... Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? ...

No, a larger cash settlement from the person's insurance company isn't what I would want. But money isn't really a salve I find effective for healing my emotional wounds. YMMV.

[moon/Laura]

Jan 7, 2014 16:03:09 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

They will probably get the 250k for wrongful death (that does actually seem low but not bad) but nothing more. I agree with wrongful death and punitive damage limits. AND I don't think this family deserves it but 250k seems very low. Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? My own umbrella insurance goes to 1 mil I would think the limit would be more like 500k--similiar to what you would expect from a life insurance policy

It's not "wrongful death" if the family didn't follow the dr's orders though. IF that is the case. A surgeon can do everything right, but if post op instructions aren't followed and something happens, that is not the hospital's fault.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 7, 2014 16:17:54 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Jan 7, 2014 16:03:09 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

They will probably get the 250k for wrongful death (that does actually seem low but not bad) but nothing more. I agree with wrongful death and punitive damage limits. AND I don't think this family deserves it but 250k seems very low. Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? My own umbrella insurance goes to 1 mil I would think the limit would be more like 500k--similiar to what you would expect from a life insurance policy

It's not "wrongful death" if the family didn't follow the dr's orders though. IF that is the case. A surgeon can do everything right, but if post op instructions aren't followed and something happens, that is not the hospital's fault.

Like I said, a lot is going to depend upon the PICU documentation of what went on after the surgery.  But even if the hospital has all the evidence in the world of no wrongdoing (short of autopsy proof), the hospital is still going to be vilified through the court of public opinion, only so much as their hands were tied due to HIPAA obligations to the same child.

I think that they are ong to pay off the family, only so much as fighting this is going to use a tremendous amount of hospital resources.  Could the hospital really afford to have the better part of the PICU staff in court for weeks, defending themselves? It is my understanding that a PICU staff is rather specialized, so you can't poach from other locations.

[Deleted]

This is where I would like common sence to prevail, if it can be proven through media sound bites, cameras etc that protocol after surgery was not taken by the family then I don't see why the hospital should be dragged through the mud.

[achelois]

Jan 6, 2014 21:11:49 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Then if there was someone watching the child, why wasn't the mother told that trying to coerce her child to talk was a lousy idea?

I am sure they did. But they cannot force her to listen. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 7, 2014 11:54:40 GMT -5 justme said:

Jan 7, 2014 9:11:24 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I kind of lost sympathy for the family (beyond the crapiness of losing your child) early on, but one article had comments of another family that was in the PICU while they were. All I could think of was how shitty is was that that family had to abide by the hospital rules while they realized the hospital was doing everything they can, while this family that pitched a fit got to bend all these hospital rules. You think every other family with a child in PICU wouldn't want to forget the rules and have a room set aside just for them? Oh wait, but they realize that CHO is doing everything they can to save every kid they can and that bitching and moaning does no one any good.

When I was in the hospital, the nurse told me that they used the rules as guidelines, not hard and fast rules.  When the bell dinged that visiting hours were over (yes, I realize this was PICU) whether or not the visitor left was at the discretion of the nurse.  TD was allowed to stay with me overnight, as I wanted him there and he was not obtrusive.  But the nurse told me that more than once they had to boot family out because they were obtrusive and/or obstructive.

I do wonder if the race card was used.  That would likely cause a hospital back down faster than anything.

Oh, I'm sure they're guidelines and less strict rules - I think one of the rules is only one person can stay overnight with the child. But I don't think anyone would agree it's a good thing to have 8 people crammed in one ICU room and using another room (I hope it wasn't an ICU room just on the same floor) for them to gather and eat in when they weren't in her room. Now, since she was dead I suppose it didn't matter - but if the child was alive I would think all that activity and outside visitors wouldn't be good for someone trying to recover.

When my Dad had his stroke in Dec. 2009, the hospital did set aside a room for us.  I asked about a place to breastfeed and when they realized how many of us were there for dad, they made a meeting room available to us.  Same thing when he had a stent put in in 2011 (except I wasn't bfing anymore then.) 
They did enforce the "no babies in ICU" rule as I was there with my 5-6 week old son the day he had the stroke.   I think there were a few times there were 4-6 of us in the ICU room until he was moved to a private room.  We did try not to be obnoxious and to stay out of the hospital staff's way though.  And I think it helped that my sister and her husband are both nurses - so they could interpret "doctorese" into English for us and keep us from getting out of hand.  Mostly, we were scared. 

[lynnerself]

Jan 7, 2014 16:03:09 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

Jan 6, 2014 19:07:00 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I don't believe any malpractice jury or judge would ever rule in the family's favor. They have ruined any bit of evidence.

They will probably get the 250k for wrongful death (that does actually seem low but not bad) but nothing more. I agree with wrongful death and punitive damage limits. AND I don't think this family deserves it but 250k seems very low. Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? My own umbrella insurance goes to 1 mil I would think the limit would be more like 500k--similiar to what you would expect from a life insurance policy

The cap was set in1975 and hasn't been raised since.
There has been recent action in the California legislature to try to change this.

[achelois]

The cap was set in1975 and hasn't been raised since.
There has been recent action in the California legislature to try to change this.




and this Dolan guy representing the family has been trying to get it raised, which is why he battened on to this family. Part of his agenda.

[The Captain]

Of course, he's looking for the most sympathetic test case he could find.  Sad to say but he probably thought he struck gold with this one.

"She criticized the hospital in the moments that Jahi began bleeding following the surgery, saying they gave her a "bucket" to contain the blood."

"She was not dead when I brought her here on Dec. 9 for a routine tonsillectomy."

"Jahi had an operation. I was told it went well. Then she started bleeding from her mouth. They gave me a cup for her to bleed into and said it was normal. She bled more and more. I couldn't keep up with it. I asked for help, they gave me a bigger bucket. She bled more. They did not answer our pleas for a doctor. Her surgeon never came back."

Based on the above I'm sure the lawyer thought he had struck gold.


We originally had all the makings according to the family:

1.  Young child
2.  Grevious medical errors and neglect by the hospital staff
3.  Underdog family "bullied" by the big evil corporate hospital to cut off support that they can't afford

Now it's starting to backfire on him and the court of public opinion may not be so much in his favor once all the facts get out.

[lynnerself]

Interesting portrait   interview with the lawyer
www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_24865029/jahi-mcmath-streetfighting-lawyer-takes-heat-death-threats

Dolan was drawn into the maelstrom over Jahi's fate on Dec. 16, when he got a phone call at his San Rafael home from her uncle, Omari Sealey. He knew nothing of the controversy, having been immersed in a federal court trial, but Sealey pleaded for help, urging him to turn on the television to watch the latest coverage of the drama. Dolan flipped on the TV, and could see Sealey in the background of the newscast, holding his phone, as their conversation unfolded.

After discussions with his wife, Dolan decided to take on the family's cause, convinced they should have a choice in the decision over whether Jahi should be taken off a ventillator. Describing himself as a "cafeteria Catholic," Dolan admits he did a lot of soulsearching on his views about end-of-life treatment, but kept coming back to the conclusion that a family, rather than just doctors and hospital administrators, should have a voice when they still believe a child can be saved.

and this

And Dolan stresses that he's representing the family for free, and will not handle the inevitable medical negligence lawsuit sure to come against Children's Hospital

[thyme4change]

$250k definitely seems low.  That isn't even 3 years of income for me or my husband.  We have additional life insurance to cover us - but we don't have zillions of dollars of insurance.  Every year, the amount seems better, as we get more assets and less years our kids will live in the house.  

[lynnerself]

Jan 7, 2014 21:00:09 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

$250k definitely seems low.  That isn't even 3 years of income for me or my husband.  We have additional life insurance to cover us - but we don't have zillions of dollars of insurance.  Every year, the amount seems better, as we get more assets and less years our kids will live in the house.  

The $250,000 is for non economic damages (ie pain and suffering). Therefore all you would get for a loss of a child. You can get more if you can prove economic loss.

[EVT1]

Jan 7, 2014 20:44:50 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

Interesting portrait   interview with the lawyer
www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_24865029/jahi-mcmath-streetfighting-lawyer-takes-heat-death-threats

Dolan was drawn into the maelstrom over Jahi's fate on Dec. 16, when he got a phone call at his San Rafael home from her uncle, Omari Sealey. He knew nothing of the controversy, having been immersed in a federal court trial, but Sealey pleaded for help, urging him to turn on the television to watch the latest coverage of the drama. Dolan flipped on the TV, and could see Sealey in the background of the newscast, holding his phone, as their conversation unfolded.

After discussions with his wife, Dolan decided to take on the family's cause, convinced they should have a choice in the decision over whether Jahi should be taken off a ventillator. Describing himself as a "cafeteria Catholic," Dolan admits he did a lot of soulsearching on his views about end-of-life treatment, but kept coming back to the conclusion that a family, rather than just doctors and hospital administrators, should have a voice when they still believe a child can be saved.

and this

And Dolan stresses that he's representing the family for free, and will not handle the inevitable medical negligence lawsuit sure to come against Children's Hospital

Good job!  More people should be aware of that. Never mind the jerks out there wanting to blame the family for everything. 

The only sure positive on this is that this family is not out for a lawsuit- they made it harder to win by their actions.  (legally it seems they could file a wrongful death claim even though she is on a vent- weird)

Every time I see a post update I expect to see where this girl has died (again?)

I get some people want to defend the hospital and its employees- and find it frustrating they do not hear their side of it- but have a little compassion- of course the family is going to lash out against them.  But on the same token I have a few family members that are nurses- one worked ICU for a long time- and talk to any of them about hospitals or doctors and they will tell you where patients go to get killed.  They do not trust other nurses and second guess doctors.  Without talking to them I give it a 50/50 split who is at fault.

[justme]

The only sure positive on this is that this family is not out for a lawsuit- they made it harder to win by their actions. (legally it seems they could file a wrongful death claim even though she is on a vent- weird)

Considering how the uncle has already been quoted saying $30M maybe being enough for what happened, I highly doubt they will not file suit.

[EVT1]

Jan 7, 2014 22:16:57 GMT -5 justme said:

The only sure positive on this is that this family is not out for a lawsuit- they made it harder to win by their actions. (legally it seems they could file a wrongful death claim even though she is on a vent- weird)

Considering how the uncle has already been quoted saying $30M maybe being enough for what happened, I highly doubt they will not file suit.

I am sure they will- as anyone would that was convinced their child should still be alive.  But screw the uncle- I doubt he is running the show- a delusion mother is and I bet if you offer her a million bucks to take her daughter away she would not take it.  Or 30.

Of course 30 million is stupid- but we like free market health care- so that means free market remedies.  No one is suing for 30 million in Canada.  

[justme]

Jan 7, 2014 22:59:36 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jan 7, 2014 22:16:57 GMT -5 justme said:

Considering how the uncle has already been quoted saying $30M maybe being enough for what happened, I highly doubt they will not file suit.

I am sure they will- as anyone would that was convinced their child should still be alive.  But screw the uncle- I doubt he is running the show- a delusion mother is and I bet if you offer her a million bucks to take her daughter away she would not take it.  Or 30.

Of course 30 million is stupid- but we like free market health care- so that means free market remedies.  No one is suing for 30 million in Canada.  

I dunno, the uncle (brother of the mom) has been the one to talk to the press the most, shared details after she was moved, and according to lynner's link was the one who hunted down the lawyer.

Maybe not though. Though I am sure you are correct on her wanting her daughter over money.

Wonder what does happen in Canada when a doctor screws up and a patient dies or is permanently injured...

[EVT1]

Jan 7, 2014 23:04:13 GMT -5 justme said:

Jan 7, 2014 22:59:36 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I am sure they will- as anyone would that was convinced their child should still be alive.  But screw the uncle- I doubt he is running the show- a delusion mother is and I bet if you offer her a million bucks to take her daughter away she would not take it.  Or 30.

Of course 30 million is stupid- but we like free market health care- so that means free market remedies.  No one is suing for 30 million in Canada.  

I dunno, the uncle (brother of the mom) has been the one to talk to the press the most, shared details after she was moved, and according to lynner's link was the one who hunted down the lawyer.

Maybe not though. Though I am sure you are correct on her wanting her daughter over money.

Wonder what does happen in Canada when a doctor screws up and a patient dies or is permanently injured...

Glad you asked  

oplfrpd5.cmpa-acpm.ca/home

Not only do they not need bullshit health insurance companies, they do not need bullshit malpractice insurance companies either.

Good point wrong topic.

[justme]

Jan 7, 2014 23:26:28 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jan 7, 2014 23:04:13 GMT -5 justme said:

I dunno, the uncle (brother of the mom) has been the one to talk to the press the most, shared details after she was moved, and according to lynner's link was the one who hunted down the lawyer.

Maybe not though. Though I am sure you are correct on her wanting her daughter over money.

Wonder what does happen in Canada when a doctor screws up and a patient dies or is permanently injured...

Glad you asked  

oplfrpd5.cmpa-acpm.ca/home

Not only do they not need bullshit health insurance companies, they do not need bullshit malpractice insurance companies either.

Good point wrong topic.

That's a main page that from first look appears to be where doctors go when they're in trouble. What about families, how do they get recourse when the doctor screws up?

[DVM gone riding]

Jan 7, 2014 17:26:37 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

Jan 7, 2014 16:03:09 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

They will probably get the 250k for wrongful death (that does actually seem low but not bad) but nothing more. I agree with wrongful death and punitive damage limits. AND I don't think this family deserves it but 250k seems very low. Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? My own umbrella insurance goes to 1 mil I would think the limit would be more like 500k--similiar to what you would expect from a life insurance policy

The cap was set in1975 and hasn't been raised since.
There has been recent action in the California legislature to try to change this.

In 1975 that would seem like a reasonable cap. Why I am defiantly against uncontrolled litigation and outrages rewards I do think 250k in a legitimate wrongful death suit is low, it just doesn't compute with what a life should be worth in today's dollars. If I were killed my life is worth A LOT more to my family in current and future earnings than that and why of COURSE money doesn't make things better a reasonable amount of money helps a family coup with the cost of the lost loved one. 

[lynnerself]

Jan 8, 2014 0:03:51 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

Jan 7, 2014 17:26:37 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

The cap was set in1975 and hasn't been raised since.
There has been recent action in the California legislature to try to change this.

In 1975 that would seem like a reasonable cap. Why I am defiantly against uncontrolled litigation and outrages rewards I do think 250k in a legitimate wrongful death suit is low, it just doesn't compute with what a life should be worth in today's dollars. If I were killed my life is worth A LOT more to my family in current and future earnings than that and why of COURSE money doesn't make things better a reasonable amount of money helps a family coup with the cost of the lost loved one. 

Again, the cap is for non economic damages. I'm pretty sure you can get more for loss of earnings.

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Jan 7, 2014 16:03:09 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

Jan 6, 2014 19:07:00 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I don't believe any malpractice jury or judge would ever rule in the family's favor. They have ruined any bit of evidence.

They will probably get the 250k for wrongful death (that does actually seem low but not bad) but nothing more. I agree with wrongful death and punitive damage limits. AND I don't think this family deserves it but 250k seems very low. Say someone ran over a loved one while drunk wouldn't you want more than that? My own umbrella insurance goes to 1 mil I would think the limit would be more like 500k--similiar to what you would expect from a life insurance policy

The $250K damage cap being discussed is for pain and suffering in MEDICAL MALPRACTICE cases. It doesn't apply in other sorts of personal injury/wrongful death lawsuits.

[zibazinski]

A child is of no economic value to a family, quite the contrary, unless, of course, you are using said child for welfare benefits. So there would be no loss of income to a family. Think of the people who have said how financially well off they'd be if they didn't have children? Emotionally? Can you ever put a price on the loss of a child? As far as economics for an adult, that's what life insurance is for. If 250k can't replace your income, get life insurance. I'm surprised before putting that child through a nasty surgery, it wasn't suggested that she lose weight? My mom was told she had to lose 50 pounds before the doctor would do her surgery. Of course if she hadn't been heavy to begin with, her surgery wouldn't have been necessary and she wouldn't have died from complications from it but that's another story. Makes me wonder if this child would not have died had she not have had a surgery that perhaps could have been avoided with a loss of weight? DF has been told his snoring would diminish if he lost some weight. Unfortunately, his weight is all in his stomach so exercise is the best way for that. He's skinny minny otherwise.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 7, 2014 21:00:09 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

$250k definitely seems low.  That isn't even 3 years of income for me or my husband.  We have additional life insurance to cover us - but we don't have zillions of dollars of insurance.  Every year, the amount seems better, as we get more assets and less years our kids will live in the house.  

It's pretty high for a family if the alternative is a protracted legal battle where most of the money goes to the lawyers, anything they do get is dribbled out beginning five or ten years from now over a period of 10, 20, or 30 years- or worse, a protracted legal battle they lose and get nothing.

Anyone that's ever wasted their time and resources in court would jump at this- or try to negotiate for just a bit more.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I still don't understand why this thread title says "hate on display"? Oh, right- the patient was black. And nothing can just happen to a black person. It's gotta be hate.

[swamp]

Jan 8, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I still don't understand why this thread title says "hate on display"? Oh, right- the patient was black. And nothing can just happen to a black person. It's gotta be hate.

the comments on the original article were very hateful. read them. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 8, 2014 4:12:49 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

A child is of no economic value to a family, quite the contrary, unless, of course, you are using said child for welfare benefits. So there would be no loss of income to a family. Think of the people who have said how financially well off they'd be if they didn't have children? Emotionally? Can you ever put a price on the loss of a child? As far as economics for an adult, that's what life insurance is for. If 250k can't replace your income, get life insurance. I'm surprised before putting that child through a nasty surgery, it wasn't suggested that she lose weight? My mom was told she had to lose 50 pounds before the doctor would do her surgery. Of course if she hadn't been heavy to begin with, her surgery wouldn't have been necessary and she wouldn't have died from complications from it but that's another story. Makes me wonder if this child would not have died had she not have had a surgery that perhaps could have been avoided with a loss of weight? DF has been told his snoring would diminish if he lost some weight. Unfortunately, his weight is all in his stomach so exercise is the best way for that. He's skinny minny otherwise.

You know, that's actually an interesting point.  And as sick as it sounds, it'd hardly be unique.  Happens all the time, and not just with kids.  There are a lot of fake kids- kids that don't exist- going on tax returns, and down here in Florida, it happens with the elderly-- plenty of scams ranging from elder abuse to "weekend at Bernie's" to leverage their SS and other benefits.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 8, 2014 10:32:01 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 8, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I still don't understand why this thread title says "hate on display"? Oh, right- the patient was black. And nothing can just happen to a black person. It's gotta be hate.

the comments on the original article were very hateful. read them. 

Ah- OK, I rarely read comments.  I rarely comment on articles, either-  I can always drag things over here to banter with you fine people.