AZ cop had to resign after finding out she wasn't a citizen

[Opti]

Think I used it for two renewals. Now we have the fancy smancy DLs.

[chiver78]

Dec 20, 2013 14:18:22 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm curious. What have you done, if anything, to verify the accuracy
of your own birth certificate?

I asked that question too, haven't seen a response from anyone yet. not all that surprised.

[Deleted]

Here in AR our DMV is a one window affair and a first name basis with the clerk (she lives about a mile from my house and knows my mother-in-law from home extension.  I go in, she says "hi Jerry", I give her the fee, she takes my picture and hands me the license.  One more reason to love low population density areas. 

[mmhmm]

Dec 20, 2013 15:03:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Dec 20, 2013 14:18:22 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm curious. What have you done, if anything, to verify the accuracy
of your own birth certificate?

I asked that question too, haven't seen a response from anyone yet. not all that surprised.

Sure you have.  Jma, apparently, has examined the bottoms of his feet to be sure he's who he thinks he is.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2013 15:03:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Dec 20, 2013 14:18:22 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm curious. What have you done, if anything, to verify the accuracy
of your own birth certificate?

I asked that question too, haven't seen a response from anyone yet. not all that surprised.

I've done nothing to verify my birth certificate. I could be the direct descendant of Hitler.   Except for the feet.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2013 9:06:26 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

That said, it would do all of us a world of good to stop and think before we post any sort of insult.  It's easy to take things the wrong way; particularly, on forums.  A bit of consideration could make a lot of this go away.  Jus' sayin' ...

[The Captain]

Actually bit of a funny story with this.  DH and I were married in October of 1994.   My sister was to get married in September of 1996.  Only problem was, when the church pulled her records she was shown to be married to my husband .

I had to send a copy of my birth certificate and the marriage license to the church to get it corrected.  Because we were both baptized at the same church our cards were next to each other in the file drawer.  They had incorrectly entered my marriage on her card.

I told Sis she was welcome to keep DH if she wanted...  but sadly she was not interested.

Since I couldn't find my birth certificate I had to get an official copy, which was sent from the county where my folks said I was born.

So I at least can say I know for certain who I am and to whom I am married .

[justme]

I always assumed it wasn't that easy to forge the upraised stamp thing that's on my birth certificate. Oh, and the fact that both my parents are US citizens, and then I got a US passport too.

I get that it sucks for the kids whose parents lied to them, but I hear all the time that ignorance isn't an excuse/defense to breaking the law. Not sure why so many think these cases are different - there's probably plenty people that break the law because their parents told them different, they still have to be held accountable when caught.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 20, 2013 13:54:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 20, 2013 9:36:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Fascinating how your mind works.  

You have this woman criminally guilty of fraud (the reason for her termination) and falsification of state and federal documents.  Yet she has not been criminally charged with anything.

You stated in the past George Zimmerman can not be called a murderer because a jury found him not guilty.  Yet here you state this woman is guilty of criminal fraud and falsification of legal documents even though there aren't charges even pending! 

Where is your consistent application of innocent until proven guilty?  Or is it selective depending upon the individual?

And before you state her employer was her judge and jury, it is not the same as a criminal court and jury.  One can be terminated from their employment simply for being an asshole which is not a crime.

Because she isn't charged, doesn't mean the acts were not committed.  The bottom line is that by statute, she's been complicit (at the age of 42- keep that in mind) in the fraud.  I will admit that I don't have hard evidence (I will remind you that many here "knew" exactly what happened with George Zimmerman - the absence of hard evidence notwithstanding) to know what exactly happened- but it's indisputably reasonable to infer she has been complicit in this fraud for several decades and it just now caught up with her because a blood relative became entangled with the law.  

EDIT: HERE is a list of required documentation JUST to obtain an AZ driver's license:

www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/96-0155.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Just more yada yada bullshit.  It is what we have come to expect.

[mmhmm]

Dec 20, 2013 16:18:35 GMT -5 justme said:

I always assumed it wasn't that easy to forge the upraised stamp thing that's on my birth certificate. Oh, and the fact that both my parents are US citizens, and then I got a US passport too.

I get that it sucks for the kids whose parents lied to them, but I hear all the time that ignorance isn't an excuse/defense to breaking the law. Not sure why so many think these cases are different - there's probably plenty people that break the law because their parents told them different, they still have to be held accountable when caught.

That would be for a district attorney, a judge, or a court of law to decide, justme.  If the woman had what she believed to be legal documentation of her US birth, and it had been accepted for employment, for a driver's license, and who knows what else, she would have no reason to doubt its authenticity.  That would be taken into consideration.  In fact, it appears it has been as no charges of fraud have been filed against this woman.

[justme]

Dec 20, 2013 17:50:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Dec 20, 2013 16:18:35 GMT -5 justme said:

I always assumed it wasn't that easy to forge the upraised stamp thing that's on my birth certificate. Oh, and the fact that both my parents are US citizens, and then I got a US passport too.

I get that it sucks for the kids whose parents lied to them, but I hear all the time that ignorance isn't an excuse/defense to breaking the law. Not sure why so many think these cases are different - there's probably plenty people that break the law because their parents told them different, they still have to be held accountable when caught.

That would be for a district attorney, a judge, or a court of law to decide, justme.  If the woman had what she believed to be legal documentation of her US birth, and it had been accepted for employment, for a driver's license, and who knows what else, she would have no reason to doubt its authenticity.  That would be taken into consideration.  In fact, it appears it has been as no charges of fraud have been filed against this woman.

Mine was more of a general comment, since there are people out there behind the movement of making all the kids legal who were moved here when they were little and have lived here their whole life and may or may not believe they are American citizens. I don't necessarily think this specific case should have fraud charges come up, don't have enough information on that.

For a not entirely good comparison, some people go to concerts/sport events with tickets they fully believe are legal/legit only to find out when they get there they are counterfeit and can't go to the event. The venue doesn't let them in just because they thought it was a legal/legit ticket.

[Tennesseer]

justme - There is quite a big difference between not being admitted to a concert and being expelled from a country one has lived in as an infant/child/young adult for 24 of their 25 years.

[justme]

Dec 20, 2013 19:01:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

justme - There is quite a big difference between not being admitted to a concert and being expelled from a country one has lived in as an infant/child/young adult for 24 of their 25 years.

Hence me saying "for a not entirely good comparison". But, at it's core that example does play into the issue that in this case someone had documents (tickets) in their possession that they believed were real. In one instance everyone agrees they should not be allowed into the event, but in the other some are OK with it being overlooked/forgiven/whatever.

Not saying it doesn't suck for the individual, but sometimes your parents had you sucky cards.

[EVT1]

For the record I said angry right wing assholes- the ones making the mean comments about this lady.

So unless all people on the right are both angry and an asshole then it does not refer to the majority.

Just the few that have nothing better to do than spew hate.  The ones likely posting from mom's basement using terms like Odumbo or Obummer, that would not have the balls to become a police officer or soldier.

Haven't heard anyone here demand she be immediately thrown in jail/deported or called here a lying beaner, job stealing lowlife, etc.  But there is still time  

[Opti]

"Hence me saying "for a not entirely good comparison". But, at it's core that example does play into the issue that in this case someone had documents (tickets) in their possession that they believed were real. In one instance everyone agrees they should not be allowed into the event, but in the other some are OK with it being overlooked/forgiven/whatever.
"

I think some are urging compassion and for her to get expedited citizenship.
She did deal with the consequences. She resigned instead of being fired.
The question now is what is the next step? Since she chose a life of public
service some feel expedited citzenship is the way to go. If she was known to
have forged the documents willfilly I doubt that most of us would have the
same reaction.

In your concert ticket example, the people aren't admitted to the concert.
They aren't jailed for falisfying the tickets. Merely denied entry. In fact if
tickets were available on site and they purchased legit tickets they would
be allowed inside. I think some of us believe she's earned the right to jump
through the hoops to get her citizenship legitimately. Had she known from an
early age she was ilegally here I doubt she would have chosen a life of public
service. Corporate or small company America would have been a much safer
and easier choice.

[justme]

They aren't jailed for falisfying the tickets. Merely denied entry.

They could be, I would think. Well, maybe not, I'm not sure if fraud covers making fake private company documents, but it might. Should they be jailed? No, but the person in this case isn't being jailed for the false documents either.


Since she chose a life of public service some feel expedited citzenship is the way to go.

If we defined public service to military, police, and fire fighters I might agree with you - after a significant number of years. But a lot of people that are advocating that the children that were lied to (and I have to say I bet not all of them were lied to, I'm sure some were told to say otherwise) be granted citizenship. That is not a good thing, and I could never get on board with that. It just incentivizes people to come across the boarder with young kids and tell them they're citizens so they can get citizenship when they're older.

[EVT1]

Dec 20, 2013 17:50:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Dec 20, 2013 16:18:35 GMT -5 justme said:

I always assumed it wasn't that easy to forge the upraised stamp thing that's on my birth certificate. Oh, and the fact that both my parents are US citizens, and then I got a US passport too.

I get that it sucks for the kids whose parents lied to them, but I hear all the time that ignorance isn't an excuse/defense to breaking the law. Not sure why so many think these cases are different - there's probably plenty people that break the law because their parents told them different, they still have to be held accountable when caught.

That would be for a district attorney, a judge, or a court of law to decide, justme.  If the woman had what she believed to be legal documentation of her US birth, and it had been accepted for employment, for a driver's license, and who knows what else, she would have no reason to doubt its authenticity.  That would be taken into consideration.  In fact, it appears it has been as no charges of fraud have been filed against this woman.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, mistake of fact is. There are no charges to bring.

I doubt anyone that knowingly had fake documents would be stupid enough to apply to be a police officer where a background investigation is done.  It is quite obvious she has not committed any crime- she is a victim of circumstances beyond her control. 

[justme]

Or at least no crime involving fraud with regard to the document she had, from what I know/have seen. Not sure where knowledge falls on the illegal immigrant law side - not saying she is, just honestly don't know whether intent/knowledge is part of the law like it plays a role in fraud.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2013 23:16:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Dec 20, 2013 17:50:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

That would be for a district attorney, a judge, or a court of law to decide, justme.  If the woman had what she believed to be legal documentation of her US birth, and it had been accepted for employment, for a driver's license, and who knows what else, she would have no reason to doubt its authenticity.  That would be taken into consideration.  In fact, it appears it has been as no charges of fraud have been filed against this woman.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, mistake of fact is. There are no charges to bring.

I doubt anyone that knowingly had fake documents would be stupid enough to apply to be a police officer where a background investigation is done.  It is quite obvious she has not committed any crime- she is a victim of circumstances beyond her control. 

Agree with everything you say here except for the last sentence. Court recognition of a victim of circumstance beyond a persons control is what creates the basis for an affluensa(sic) defense or similar.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 20, 2013 15:03:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Dec 20, 2013 14:18:22 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm curious. What have you done, if anything, to verify the accuracy
of your own birth certificate?

I asked that question too, haven't seen a response from anyone yet. not all that surprised.

You can't hand over a copy.  For me, I have-- on several occasions (marriage, joining the military just to name a few)-- needed a "certified copy" which can only be obtained from the county clerk.  www.cookcountyclerk.com/vitalrecords/birthcertificates/Pages/default.aspx

I checked, and as it turns out- they don't keep fake birth certificates on file.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 20, 2013 17:46:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 20, 2013 13:54:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Because she isn't charged, doesn't mean the acts were not committed.  The bottom line is that by statute, she's been complicit (at the age of 42- keep that in mind) in the fraud.  I will admit that I don't have hard evidence (I will remind you that many here "knew" exactly what happened with George Zimmerman - the absence of hard evidence notwithstanding) to know what exactly happened- but it's indisputably reasonable to infer she has been complicit in this fraud for several decades and it just now caught up with her because a blood relative became entangled with the law.  

EDIT: HERE is a list of required documentation JUST to obtain an AZ driver's license:

www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/96-0155.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Just more yada yada bullshit.  It is what we have come to expect.

Sorry.  I totally forgot that for you providing documented facts = bullshit.  I tried with you, too- for too long.  Off to dj land for you.  It's totally pointless to discuss anything with you.  

By the way, do you think Bernie Madoff's family knew?  I think to the extent she "didn't know" it was convenient for her not to know.  She probably has some "plausible deniability" in all of this, but that doesn't make her not guilty.  

And big picture, this sort of thing is the kind of case-by-case, "special circumstance" the left loves to pick on because it serves their political agenda which is TOTAL AMENSTY for illegal immigrants and open borders with Mexico for the purpose of overwhelming our voting system to deliberately create chaos so they can establish one-party rule.  If you follow their policy positions on illegal immigration, and voting laws, and connect the dots- this is the only reasonable conclusion you can reach-- and I frankly think it's time we called them on it.

[chiver78]

Dec 21, 2013 9:49:48 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 20, 2013 15:03:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I asked that question too, haven't seen a response from anyone yet. not all that surprised.

You can't hand over a copy.  For me, I have-- on several occasions (marriage, joining the military just to name a few)-- needed a "certified copy" which can only be obtained from the county clerk.  www.cookcountyclerk.com/vitalrecords/birthcertificates/Pages/default.aspx

I checked, and as it turns out- they don't keep fake birth certificates on file.

did you read where I said that having having to obtain your own birth certificate was verification? What I asked was if you were still operating with with the original that your parents gave you, how would you know if it was real or not?

sent from my electronic distraction

[Tennesseer]

Dec 21, 2013 9:57:46 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 20, 2013 17:46:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Just more yada yada bullshit.  It is what we have come to expect.

Sorry.  I totally forgot that for you providing documented facts = bullshit.  I tried with you, too- for too long.  Off to dj land for you.  It's totally pointless to discuss anything with you.  

By the way, do you think Bernie Madoff's family knew?  I think to the extent she "didn't know" it was convenient for her not to know.  She probably has some "plausible deniability" in all of this, but that doesn't make her not guilty.  

And big picture, this sort of thing is the kind of case-by-case, "special circumstance" the left loves to pick on because it serves their political agenda which is TOTAL AMENSTY for illegal immigrants and open borders with Mexico for the purpose of overwhelming our voting system to deliberately create chaos so they can establish one-party rule.  If you follow their policy positions on illegal immigration, and voting laws, and connect the dots- this is the only reasonable conclusion you can reach-- and I frankly think it's time we called them on it.

I have tried with you too.  When I post facts which show you were/are royally wrong, you don't reply.  What ìs up with that?

[AGB]

Dec 20, 2013 13:54:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Because she isn't charged, doesn't mean the acts were not committed.  The bottom line is that by statute, she's been complicit (at the age of 42- keep that in mind) in the fraud.  I will admit that I don't have hard evidence (I will remind you that many here "knew" exactly what happened with George Zimmerman - the absence of hard evidence notwithstanding) to know what exactly happened- but it's indisputably reasonable to infer she has been complicit in this fraud for several decades and it just now caught up with her because a blood relative became entangled with the law.  

EDIT: HERE is a list of required documentation JUST to obtain an AZ driver's license:

www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/96-0155.pdf?sfvrsn=4

She is 42, things didn't always work the way they do now. At one point, a birth certificate was your ticket to get quite a few other legal documents. She had the birth certificate from the primary column, and there are quite a few items from the secondary column that were easy enough to obtain. She only needed one with a picture, or two without. 20 years ago, I was able to obtain a marriage license with a foreign passport and a tourist visa. I was also able to get a social security card.

[Sum Dum Gai]

The left wants open borders... dude stop you're killing me. How many legislators on the right are authoring bills to clamp down on illegals? We already have one party rule, and they love the cheap immigrant labor. We have one party with two factions that squabble to keep the masses entertained, while they do the bidding of the rich, connected, and corporations. Who was the last president to grant blanket amnesty and did he have a D or R after his name?

[EVT1]

Dec 21, 2013 8:21:16 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Dec 20, 2013 23:16:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, mistake of fact is. There are no charges to bring.

I doubt anyone that knowingly had fake documents would be stupid enough to apply to be a police officer where a background investigation is done.  It is quite obvious she has not committed any crime- she is a victim of circumstances beyond her control. 

Agree with everything you say here except for the last sentence. Court recognition of a victim of circumstance beyond a persons control is what creates the basis for an affluensa(sic) defense or similar.

The court  would not have to recognize anything- just believe that she was unaware that her documents were fake.  That is mistake of fact, and it negates criminal intent.  

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2013 17:56:01 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Dec 21, 2013 8:21:16 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Agree with everything you say here except for the last sentence. Court recognition of a victim of circumstance beyond a persons control is what creates the basis for an affluensa(sic) defense or similar.

The court  would not have to recognize anything- just believe that she was unaware that her documents were fake.  That is mistake of fact, and it negates criminal intent.  

Exactly the point of an affluenza(sic) defense. There is no provable criminal intent. Victim of circumstance. For the woman, she was led to believe she was a citizen since she was a young child through no intent of her own. For the drunk teen, he was led to believe he was not responsible for his actions since he was a young child through no intent of his own. Neither knew any different. Our own moral compass's make us feel differently about each case. But legally they are the same when victim of circumstance is accepted in the court.

[workpublic]

Haven't heard anyone here demand she be immediately thrown in jail/deported or called here a lying beaner, job stealing lowlife, etc. But there is still time

another veiled insult?

[EVT1]

Dec 23, 2013 10:45:33 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Dec 21, 2013 17:56:01 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

The court  would not have to recognize anything- just believe that she was unaware that her documents were fake.  That is mistake of fact, and it negates criminal intent.  

Exactly the point of an affluenza(sic) defense. There is no provable criminal intent. Victim of circumstance. For the woman, she was led to believe she was a citizen since she was a young child through no intent of her own. For the drunk teen, he was led to believe he was not responsible for his actions since he was a young child through no intent of his own. Neither knew any different. Our own moral compass's make us feel differently about each case. But legally they are the same when victim of circumstance is accepted in the court.

They are not the same at all.  They both attack mens rea, one involves mistake of fact (Documents were valid), the other does not.  And you should note that the kid was found guilty of a crime- so it did not work, it only worked to convince the judge the kid was salvageable.  You also have to take into account various state laws that do not require mens rea. i.e. strict liability- as in DUI and subsequent vehicular homicide. 

Mistake of fact would result in not guilty.  

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2013 16:48:44 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Dec 23, 2013 10:45:33 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Exactly the point of an affluenza(sic) defense. There is no provable criminal intent. Victim of circumstance. For the woman, she was led to believe she was a citizen since she was a young child through no intent of her own. For the drunk teen, he was led to believe he was not responsible for his actions since he was a young child through no intent of his own. Neither knew any different. Our own moral compass's make us feel differently about each case. But legally they are the same when victim of circumstance is accepted in the court.

They are not the same at all.  They both attack mens rea, one involves mistake of fact (Documents were valid), the other does not.  And you should note that the kid was found guilty of a crime- so it did not work, it only worked to convince the judge the kid was salvageable.  You also have to take into account various state laws that do not require mens rea. i.e. strict liability- as in DUI and subsequent vehicular homicide. 

Mistake of fact would result in not guilty.  

I thought the womans documents were invalid and she was an illegal alien that was mislead by her mother that she was legal.