As the new saying goes: Oh SNAP!

[djAdvocate]

Dec 18, 2013 11:56:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Dec 18, 2013 11:39:27 GMT -5 shelby said:

Does anyone have statistics on the average number of children in a welfare recipient home? I am not opposed to incentivizing BC at all. But wondering how much effect this would have overall.

I've posted on this in another thread.  It's 2-3 children on average depending on the mother's education level.  So the good news is, some get the messge.  The bad news, apparently not enough.

Here's a paper which discusses how harmful the welfare state is to the kids (with cites if you care to look them up).

www.heritage.org/research/reports/1996/06/bg1084nbsp-how-welfare-harms-kids

i think that paper is getting cause and effect confused.  it is undeniable that we have a problem with children in this country.  this article was written 20 years ago.  i am betting things have gotten WORSE:

www.ringnebula.com/project-censored/1994/1994-story1.htm

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 18, 2013 11:06:22 GMT -5 oped said:

It isn't about 'being humane'. It's about individual rights. Unless you want people
telling you the conditions under which you can conceive and gestate, you best not open the idea that other people have a right to dictate those things... 

No. I don't believe that all kids who live in families who get assistance, food stamps. Etc. have a 'shitty' time of it...  But again, not I, nor some governing body that I belong to, should be defining, judging and/or approving/condemning what is or is not 'shitty'...

I don't want my government passing judgement except in the most severe terms of what universally constitutes abuse, neglect, etc. 

I actually agree with some of what you are saying.

But the reality is that "we", govt, charities and many many people spend a lot of money and time and resources on the kids that were born into families like that.  And we are spending more and more and more.

So, what's the solution?  Bc let's face it, once the child is born (and some would argue once he is conceived) - that's it, someone has to take care of him.  And if not parents, then who?

And I am not talking just financial side. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 18, 2013 11:10:46 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Seems to me when we had the draft and young men went for 2 years if nothing else they learned discipline, being responsible for their own actions, and how to respect authority which later would be your boss. 2 years in the military didn't hurt anyone. Even the poorest of the poor got a catch to learn some type of trade and cost them nothing.  I think it really hurt society when they stopped that.

Ok, if the repubs get their way they are going to keep cutting food stamps and any kind of help for the poor. They are cutting UE. I'm just curious how is this going to work out? If they become the party in power I expect them to cut it all. These people aren't going to sit and starve, what will they do, steal? Sell drugs? The jobs aren't magically coming to those neighborhoods so how do you deal with the outcome?

I agree with sterilization. I did voluntarily after having a mentally challenged child, I knew we could never take care of more nor did I want to try, wasn't sure we could her. I was lucky to be able to get it done. I didn't want more then 2 kids.  The college of surgeons had just passed some type of resolution saying that you didn't have to have a whole herd of kids and be a certain age before you could. Prior to that women had NO choice. This was in the 70's and I was in awe of the fact that women couldn't control that aspect of their lives. My gyn said whatever you do don't get pregnant till the hospital accepts this, thankfully it was in the works. And we seem to be going back to conditions like that?

I've often wondered if the repubs have really thought things through.  They want to get rid of abortion, any type of birth control if they can, this is the poor womans only way out.  Also will effect many middle class women, won't bother the rich as they can go anywhere and pay anything for their birth control or abortions and no one will ever know. Talk about hypocrisy at its best.  Anyway now people will be having more kids they can't afford and on top of that cut all their benefits.  I'm curious how all this is going to make it better?  How does this work?

Will these people suddenly become responsible Will jobs appear in their neighborhoods?  If we do all they want done then we need to be prepared for our country to look like the Phillipines, or sections of India, or countries like that with masses of poor starving people begging on the streets.  Of course here since a lot of the country gets very cold each winter we can probably freeze a bunch of kids and babies to death plus old folks.

What I would like to hear is the repubs plan on how all this will work. I agree its getting out of hand but one of the reasons is the lack of manufacturing jobs or jobs that pay a living wage.  

I just want to see how they will fix the problem, I would love to see it fixed, and that ideal world. 

This is BY FAR the biggest collection of falsehoods I've ever read. I wasn't even going to respond- but I'll bite:

1. The draft hurt plenty of people. Got them permanently physically injured, gave them PTSD, and of course got them killed. The draft enabled the government's misguided adventure into Vietnam and prolonged it.

2. Food stamps- you can't "keep cutting" something you're not cutting in the first place. There were no REAL cuts, we'll be spending more on food stamps than we have been spending- that, by any objective measure, is an increase.

3. Unemployment isn't being cut, just not being extended. And to be fair- Republicans shrieking about "cutting military pensions" are wrong, too- we'll be spending more. The COLA will not be increased as much as originally projected- but it will be increased.

4. I'm for ending abortion, but most of the GOP is not. The GOP would like to see abortion regulated like any other clinic or hospital, and even the supposedly draconian measures in Texas only took Texas to European standards that have been in place for decades.

5. The GOP is not in favor of banning birth control, nor are most conservatives. We are for not handing them out at taxpayer expense like candy. It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

That's as far as I'll go for now- I could go on. And on.

[zibazinski]

If you want welfare benefits of any kind, bc is NOT an option. You get pregnant while of welfare?  You lose all benefits. if you have time to get pregnant again, you have too much time on your hands. No welfare for anyone under 21 unless its due to mommy or daddy and it ends at age 18. So no collecting because you decided to have a child while on welfare yourself. No collecting it, period, until age 21. Maybe, just maybe, with no incentive to get pregnant, some of these children might graduate and make something of themselves before procreating. But your food stamps and your check and whatever all ends at age 18 for at least 3 years. At the very worst, some of these people will have to work for 3 years before they can quit and live off taxpayers forever. I'm not including special needs, of course, but ADD and ADHD do not apply in these cases. Some people train their kids to act out to qualify for more money. Don't think that doesn't happen. Not that they have to work at it much. 

[Deleted]

Benefits are FOR children... How can you take their benefits away because of their parents decision? 

Again, so the kid should just be homeless/starve...etc...? 

I agree SSI needs to be examined closely (did I get the right initials that time?)

[cereb]

"Some people train their kids to act out to qualify for more money. Don't think that doesn't happen. Not that they have to work at it much."


Too funny. Sorry, you don't get more money from the welfare department because You kid acts out. Your just full of welfare myths today aren't ya!

[The Captain]

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

[shelby]

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

May be? If you know then just tell us.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

Some killed their unwanted children and fed them to dogs and wolves.

Infantcide

[billisonboard]

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

Sounds like you have done research on the issue. Anything you want to just share with us?

[cereb]

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

www.roundtree7.com/2011/07/hell-on-earth-the-american-eugenics-movement-and-the-fernald-boys-home/

[billisonboard]

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html

[shelby]

Dec 18, 2013 20:10:31 GMT -5 cereb said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

www.roundtree7.com/2011/07/hell-on-earth-the-american-eugenics-movement-and-the-fernald-boys-home/

Oh yes the good old days  

[shelby]

Or how about shanty towns? We could bring those back.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 19:12:21 GMT -5 @patstab said:

So no one but Paul even has an idea about how to get rid of all these bums that won't work.

You think cutting them all off will suddenly make them personally responsible when there are no jobs for them to go to.

So in 23 years since the woman in the article became an adult, there was truly not one job out there? You can't honestly believe that

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

Some killed their unwanted children and fed them to dogs and wolves.

Infantcide

People still kill their unwanted babies but it is legal now

[Tennesseer]

Dec 18, 2013 20:44:15 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Some killed their unwanted children and fed them to dogs and wolves.

Infantcide

People still kill their unwanted babies but it is legal now

We give them to dingos.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 18, 2013 20:43:24 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:12:21 GMT -5 @patstab said:

So no one but Paul even has an idea about how to get rid of all these bums that won't work.

You think cutting them all off will suddenly make them personally responsible when there are no jobs for them to go to.

So in 23 years since the woman in the article became an adult, there was truly not one job out there? You can't honestly believe that

Maybe she worked as a hooker and five of the johns are the fathers of her kids?  Hazardous working conditions.  

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 20:52:24 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 20:43:24 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

So in 23 years since the woman in the article became an adult, there was truly not one job out there? You can't honestly believe that

Maybe she worked as a hooker and five of the johns are the fathers of her kids?  Hazardous working conditions.  

If she got knocked up in the job, does that qualify for workers comp?

[Tennesseer]

Dec 18, 2013 20:54:34 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 18, 2013 20:52:24 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Maybe she worked as a hooker and five of the johns are the fathers of her kids?  Hazardous working conditions.  

If she got knocked up in the job, does that qualify for workers comp?

Yeaaa!  Legal money.   

[djAdvocate]

Dec 18, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:16:25 GMT -5 The Captain said:

What did folks do before all the support programs were put in place?

(please post links to real data, not offhand statements - your research may be a bit surprising)

Some killed their unwanted children and fed them to dogs and wolves.

Infantcide

such a waste!@

art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

[djAdvocate]

Dec 18, 2013 20:44:15 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Some killed their unwanted children and fed them to dogs and wolves.

Infantcide

People still kill their unwanted babies but it is legal now

baby is not generally used for gestating children.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 21:58:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 18, 2013 20:44:15 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

People still kill their unwanted babies but it is legal now

baby is not generally used for gestating children.

I've had many if ultrasounds with all of my babies. No one will ever convince me that they aren't babies I was carrying. Using the term "fetus" just makes it sound better to those having an abortion.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 20:49:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 20:44:15 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

People still kill their unwanted babies but it is legal now

We give them to dingos.

The dingo ate my baby!

[Deleted]

Right. I have attended many gestating child showers.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 18, 2013 21:57:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 18, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Some killed their unwanted children and fed them to dogs and wolves.

Infantcide

such a waste!@

art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

What a shame it did not come to pass.  Little Oliver Twist would not have had to ask "Please, sir, I want some more (gruel)" and eaten more protein.

[Deleted]

In 1960, John F. Kennedy was campaigning for the Democratic Party's nomination for President and West Virginia was a key battleground primary. Kennedy campaigned tirelessly and talked with hundreds of poor coal miners and workers. As Ted Sorensen, Kennedy's speech writer, says in his book Kennedy –

"He was appalled by the pitiful conditions he saw, by the children of poverty, by the families living on surplus lard and corn meal, by the waste of human resources… He called for better housing and better schools and better food distribution… He held up a skimpy surplus food package and cited real-life cases of distress."

www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe50s/money_09.html

[rockon]

"baby is not generally used for gestating children." 

If it's not a baby would it still be a child?

[djAdvocate]

Dec 18, 2013 22:08:02 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 18, 2013 21:58:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

baby is not generally used for gestating children.

I've had many if ultrasounds with all of my babies. No one will ever convince me that they aren't babies I was carrying. Using the term "fetus" just makes it sound better to those having an abortion.

child is the term usually used for both in and out of the womb.  suit yourself, tho.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 18, 2013 22:42:11 GMT -5 rockon said:

"baby is not generally used for gestating children." 

If it's not a baby would it still be a child?

yes.  child is a term that is used for both the fetus and the infant.  it drives the pro-choice people nuts.