As the new saying goes: Oh SNAP!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 17, 2013 20:58:31 GMT -5 cereb said:

'None of this is as painfully simple as we thought-"


No..really? LOL!

Why would we suspect that showing up, showing up on time, and showing up ready to work is not painfully simple? It's a rotten shame we have a nation full of people who are not even prepared to do the absolute minimum required of anyone- get up out of bed and go where you're supposed to go.  We've had people no-show, no-call because they "forgot" they had to work that day.  Sorry, I just don't understand that.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 7:22:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 6:53:27 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Of course she can't conceive....hate the point!

Ok, so you don't like doing it hat way. How about we provide incentives. For every depo shit they take they receive an extra $50? They still have their basic food and shelter (same as they would have if they didn't take the shot) and now they have the option to earn extra money. The choice...spit out more babies you can't afford or pocket some extra cash. Liberals love to give people choice so I think this is the perfect solution.

I would rather see ìncentives rather than 'either or' scenarios as it pertains to "depo shit"s (ìt ìs 5:00 pm some where I suppose).

I would also like to see a temporary 10-15% reduction in monthly benefits should the person become pregnant when birth control is offered free to them.

LOL!  My Iphone loves to autocorrect on me!

See, we CAN come to a bipartisan solution....now if only we could get elected and actually make some changes

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 7:35:38 GMT -5 michelyn8 said:

Dec 17, 2013 15:56:09 GMT -5 workpublic said:

what i don't get is giving the kids to the grandmothers. they're the ones that failed to raise the mothers properly.

we have "single mother" apts in croton falls. all are young white girls. virtually everyone of them has an able bodied(most quite ripped) manchild living with them. some are the baby daddies, some are the next guy after the baby daddy.

I have to take issue with this.  Once a child reaches a certain age there is only so much influence a parent truly has on that child.  You can "raise them right", set a "perfect" example, etc. and still have a child who makes bad choices in their life. 

I made bad choices in my late teens/early 20's and I would dare anyone to look at my childhood and tell me how my parents could possibly be at fault.  It was all me, no one else.

I agree and I disagree. Some people have fabulous childhoods and still screw up later in life. But if you are born into the ghetto lifestyle you are pretty much doomed to repeat it. I am not going to spend time digging for research to support my statements as this is just my opinion...but, odds of a kid from a good family turning bad are significantly less that kids from a ghetto family turning bad. 

[Tennesseer]

Dec 18, 2013 7:39:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 18, 2013 7:22:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I would also like to see a temporary 10-15% reduction in monthly benefits should the person become pregnant when birth control is offered free to them.

LOL!  My Iphone loves to autocorrect on me!

See, we CAN come to a bipartisan solution....now if only we could get elected and actually make some changes

Try using a tablet.  The letter 'I' (at the beginning of a word) sends the curser flying ìnto the quoted text.  If you don't notice ìt, it screws up the quote.  No problem with the reply function-just quotes.

There should be some type of penalty just not draconian ìn nature.

[The Captain]

So we scream it's uncivilized to ask a woman not to give birth to children for whom she cannot provide...

                              ...but expect society to provide for her and multiple children whom she is training to follow her lead?


Ah yes, double standards are wonderful!

ETA - caught up with some of the posts.  You do understand the depo shot is temporary, correct?  It's not permanent and only lasts three months each time.

We all have tradeoffs to live in a "civilized" society.  In order for some folks to participate they have up to 60% of their earned income confiscated in the form of Federal, SS, State, Local, and Real Estate taxes.  They have no choice in the matter and "society" feels entirely justified in taking the results of their labors regardless if they desire it or not.

If an individual is unable (or chooses not) to contribute to a civilized society, and actively takes steps to become even more of a burden, then how is it uncivilized to require them to make some sacrifices as well?

We're not even talking no kids here, she's had double what most WORKING people can afford.

Isn't is a basic human right to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labors?  I guess not.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 7:45:40 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 7:39:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

LOL!  My Iphone loves to autocorrect on me!

See, we CAN come to a bipartisan solution....now if only we could get elected and actually make some changes

Try using a tablet.  The letter 'I' (at the beginning of a word) sends the curser flying ìnto the quoted text.  If you don't notice ìt, it screws up the quote.  No problem with the reply function-just quotes.

There should be some type of penalty just not draconian ìn nature.

I actually agree with you.  I'm a conservative so in theory I'm all "let the fuckers starve".  But I'm also human and couldn't actually let people starve to death (but I'm ok with them being REALLY hungry!lol).  But something needs to be done....

And I will never get a tablet.  I have enough issues with my iphone

[michelyn8]

I agree and I disagree. Some people have fabulous childhoods and still screw up later in life. But if you are born into the ghetto lifestyle you are pretty much doomed to repeat it. I am not going to spend time digging for research to support my statements as this is just my opinion...but, odds of a kid from a good family turning bad are significantly less that kids from a ghetto family turning bad.

I don't disagree with you on the odds.  I just hate hearing the blanket "blame the mother/parents" statements.  I honestly don't have any real life experience with the "ghetto" lifestyle - I made other sacrifices until I could afford better.  But I would like to think that not everyone in these neighborhoods are completely on the dole and that some just can't afford anything better on the little bit of "honest" income they make.  And that maybe in those circumstances, they make bad choices based on what they are exposed to in the neighborhood versus the values they are taught at home.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 18, 2013 7:01:11 GMT -5 oped said:

I am all for incentivizing people to sterilize. 

Why?  Why wouldn't you be all for minding your own damn business?  The problems you're likely to describe that could be solved by sterilization are not problems of fertility, but problems of socialism.  End the socialism, and we can all just mind our own business.

[Deleted]

When children are homeless/starving/struggling, etc... I find it hard to mind my own damn business. It isn't socialism to care for the innocent. So, since I can't just let the kids go down with the ship, and in a free society I can't controll another person's body or decisions, i'd rather incentivize certain people to not have children, than support their children.

Life is real, it's messy, it's not theory... It's almost always not as painfully simple as we'd like it to be...

In the real world you make the decisions and answer the questions that exist... Not imagine if it would just be like you dream it all to be...

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 18, 2013 6:37:07 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 18, 2013 0:23:24 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Let's not be too dramatic - it's just a BC. 

Can a woman conceive while under depo? No a woman cannot. So what would you call it if not forced sterilization when the only other choice is no food or shelter? 

"I" would call it helping our society not have even more at-risk kids.  We keep talking about "those poor children" who don't even get a chance due to where they are born, but OMG how dare we to suggest that may be we should do something about it BEFORE they are even conceived.  Yes, I am cruel that way

[The Captain]

So in the real world we are ok with supporting people who would rather spend their money on tatoos, acrylic nails, cigaretts, fake wigs and eyelashes for themselves rather then feeding the multiple children they expect everyone else to provide for?  After all, no one should have to "look poor".

This woman is the poster child for everything that is wrong with the supposed "hand up" that welfare provides.  I am not ok with that.  If it takes some short term pain to end this cycle of entitlement then so be it.  If these parents are truly the type that would let their kids starve rather then find some means to support them then so be it, take the kids away.  I'd like to think a majority of these folks will step up and do what needs to be done to provide for their family.

Even during the great depression people stepped up to help the truly needy.  As far as I've been able to determine, there were very few deaths due to starvation during this time.

My grandmother was the youngest of 9 kids.  Her father passed when she was only a few months old (during the great depression).  My great grandmather and my oldest aunts took in laundry, did mending, and cleaned houses to put food on the table.  Somehow back then a woman was able to provide for her family when she needed to and there is no reason to think it can't be done today (unless it's just too hard...).

[Deleted]

So long as YOU take the short term pain and not the kids...  

How ow many needy children do you currently take in? How many hours do you currently spend mentoring? 

Our foster system sucks. Take the kids away and put them where?  

Unless you are volunteering... 

[whoisjohngalt]

Oped, are you asking me or someone else?

[whoisjohngalt]

BTW, I am an equal opportunity bitch - I think we should do the same to men - I don't know if there is any kind of BC for men other than good ol' snip-snip though

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 18, 2013 9:20:38 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

I'm a conservative so in theory I'm all "let the fuckers starve".

My Grandparents, rest their souls, were conservatives.  Good old fashioned conservatives, like GHW Bush's Dad.

They were not OK with that proposition at all.  A hand up, by your bootstraps and all that, but half the country was worried about hunger in the 1930's.  Anyone from that era could not be so callous.  I'm glad to read that you are not, and I think your statement is tongue in cheek.  But I a m reminded of the people at the Paul Rally last year who screamed "Let 'em die!"

Nice.  Hopefully NOT the future of American conservatism.

It's not.  It is not, and never has been the real conservative position.  For the most part, it's a liberal Democrat stereotype invented to advance their political theory that if the government isn't or will not do it, then it is not getting, or will not get done.

And yes, I realize there are "nuanced" positions in between- but on the whole, this is where most liberals stand- hence the squealing like stuck pigs over "cuts" - which are really just decreases in the amount of the increases originally proposed.

To the extent that I do believe "let them starve"- what I really mean is, let's not enable people in their self-destructive behavior and idleness.  I don't believe they'll actually starve.  However, as we're discovering in my little project- there are a lot of animals that are not fit to release directly into the wild.  It's a process- it'll be a process, but we ought to undertake to get able-bodied, and otherwise mentally healthy people as independent as possible.

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2013 10:20:36 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Oped, are you asking me or someone else?

Captain

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Dec 18, 2013 10:22:33 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

BTW, I am an equal opportunity bitch - I think we should do the same to men - I don't know if there is any kind of BC for men other than good ol' snip-snip though

If you're gonna do it- best to get the men.  After all, a woman can only get pregnant once every nine months...

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2013 10:22:33 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

BTW, I am an equal opportunity bitch - I think we should do the same to men - I don't know if there is any kind of BC for men other than good ol' snip-snip though

Oh yes, I'm for incentivizing vasectomies too, even more so... Men can impregnate at much higher rates than women can gestate...

[The Captain]

Dec 18, 2013 10:18:29 GMT -5 oped said:

So long as YOU take the short term pain and not the kids...  

How ow many needy children do you currently take in? How many hours do you currently spend mentoring? 

Our foster system sucks. Take the kids away and put them where?  

Unless you are volunteering... 

I'm going to presume this is directed at me.

I spend most of my current hours working to support my family, you know - the one I made sure was not more than I could support.  I don't think it's asking too much to expect the same of other parents.

We are talking the THIRD generation who somehow is unable to provide for themselves.  We are supposed to believe it is all hardship and pain for them now (I can't turn on the heater in my car and buy bacon, but don't I look good!).  How is what I'm suggesting any worse?

[billisonboard]

Dec 18, 2013 7:38:25 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 17, 2013 20:58:31 GMT -5 cereb said:

'None of this is as painfully simple as we thought-"


No..really? LOL!

Why would we suspect that showing up, showing up on time, and showing up ready to work is not painfully simple? It's a rotten shame we have a nation full of people who are not even prepared to do the absolute minimum required of anyone- get up out of bed and go where you're supposed to go.  We've had people no-show, no-call because they "forgot" they had to work that day.  Sorry, I just don't understand that.

While humans are wonderfully adaptive and many have adjusted natural patterns to this wildly artificial world we call modern existence, I accept that some have not.

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 18, 2013 10:26:02 GMT -5 oped said:

Dec 18, 2013 10:22:33 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

BTW, I am an equal opportunity bitch - I think we should do the same to men - I don't know if there is any kind of BC for men other than good ol' snip-snip though

Oh yes, I'm for incentivizing vasectomies too, even more so... Men can impregnate at much higher rates than women can gestate...

But we always talk about how it's not humane to "sterilize" a woman, but is it humane to allow children to keep being born in those type of conditions over and over again?

**Let's pretend for a second that we have plenty of money as a society, and don't have a problem to keep supporting those kind of families.  Those kids still would have a pretty shitty start.  no?

[Deleted]

It isn't about 'being humane'. It's about individual rights. Unless you want people
telling you the conditions under which you can conceive and gestate, you best not open the idea that other people have a right to dictate those things... 

No. I don't believe that all kids who live in families who get assistance, food stamps. Etc. have a 'shitty' time of it...  But again, not I, nor some governing body that I belong to, should be defining, judging and/or approving/condemning what is or is not 'shitty'...

I don't want my government passing judgement except in the most severe terms of what universally constitutes abuse, neglect, etc. 

[Deleted]

Oh, I see, all you have to do is expect them to do it, and they will... Ingenious... I had no idea it was that easy...

[billisonboard]

Dec 18, 2013 11:10:46 GMT -5 @patstab said:

... 2 years in the military didn't hurt anyone. ...

Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam. www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 18, 2013 11:10:46 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Seems to me when we had the draft and young men went for 2 years if nothing else they learned discipline, being responsible for their own actions, and how to respect authority which later would be your boss. 2 years in the military didn't hurt anyone. Even the poorest of the poor got a catch to learn some type of trade and cost them nothing.  I think it really hurt society when they stopped that.

Ok, if the repubs get their way they are going to keep cutting food stamps and any kind of help for the poor. They are cutting UE. I'm just curious how is this going to work out? If they become the party in power I expect them to cut it all. These people aren't going to sit and starve, what will they do, steal? Sell drugs? The jobs aren't magically coming to those neighborhoods so how do you deal with the outcome?

I agree with sterilization. I did voluntarily after having a mentally challenged child, I knew we could never take care of more nor did I want to try, wasn't sure we could her. I was lucky to be able to get it done. I didn't want more then 2 kids.  The college of surgeons had just passed some type of resolution saying that you didn't have to have a whole herd of kids and be a certain age before you could. Prior to that women had NO choice. This was in the 70's and I was in awe of the fact that women couldn't control that aspect of their lives. My gyn said whatever you do don't get pregnant till the hospital accepts this, thankfully it was in the works. And we seem to be going back to conditions like that?

I've often wondered if the repubs have really thought things through.  They want to get rid of abortion, any type of birth control if they can, this is the poor womans only way out.  Also will effect many middle class women, won't bother the rich as they can go anywhere and pay anything for their birth control or abortions and no one will ever know. Talk about hypocrisy at its best.  Anyway now people will be having more kids they can't afford and on top of that cut all their benefits.  I'm curious how all this is going to make it better?  How does this work?

Will these people suddenly become responsible Will jobs appear in their neighborhoods?  If we do all they want done then we need to be prepared for our country to look like the Phillipines, or sections of India, or countries like that with masses of poor starving people begging on the streets.  Of course here since a lot of the country gets very cold each winter we can probably freeze a bunch of kids and babies to death plus old folks.

What I would like to hear is the repubs plan on how all this will work. I agree its getting out of hand but one of the reasons is the lack of manufacturing jobs or jobs that pay a living wage.  

I just want to see how they will fix the problem, I would love to see it fixed, and that ideal world. 

Talk about making blanket statements about an entire party. I'm a staunch conservative and I am personally on birth control. And for the record, birth control and abortions are legal but that didn't stop the lazy ass in this article from choosing either route.  Given how many people we have on the dole and the fact that birth control and abortion are legal, can you truly lay this on the shoulders of the republicans?

While lack of good paying jobs is a huge issue, a bigger issue is lack of personal responsibility.  This lazy ass in this article doesn't care that she can't afford any children, she still popped out 6 of them!  Tell me how exactly that is the republican's fault? 

And loss of pride is also a big issue.  We now live in an age when there is no embarrassment to getting knocked up by 5 different losers....it is no longer an embarrassment to sponge from the taxpayers.  My mom was on food stamps when I was a kid. I hated her for it becuase I was mortified to be seen buying food like that. As a kid, I had more pride than any of these ghetto dwellers ever will.  Not sure how that is the fault of the republicans, either.

[Deleted]

I don't lay it all on their shoulders at all... I do think we should be making planned parenthood more accessible, not shutting them down. Not everyone lives within easy access to birth control.

[shelby]

Does anyone have statistics on the average number of children in a welfare recipient home? I am not opposed to incentivizing BC at all. But wondering how much effect this would have overall.

[The Captain]

Target sells it for $9 a month.  It's on the $4 list at walmart in Il.  I'm positive she's on Medicaid so getting a prescription (maybe on one of her "panic" ER runs?) should not be a problem.

cnsnews.com/news/article/sandra-fluke-says-she-didnt-know-target-sells-birth-control-pills-9

Far less than cigaretts or fake nails.

[Deleted]

To the best of my knowledge, no ER is going to write a script for BC pills. 

[The Captain]

Dec 18, 2013 11:39:27 GMT -5 shelby said:

Does anyone have statistics on the average number of children in a welfare recipient home? I am not opposed to incentivizing BC at all. But wondering how much effect this would have overall.

I've posted on this in another thread.  It's 2-3 children on average depending on the mother's education level.  So the good news is, some get the messge.  The bad news, apparently not enough.

Here's a paper which discusses how harmful the welfare state is to the kids (with cites if you care to look them up).

www.heritage.org/research/reports/1996/06/bg1084nbsp-how-welfare-harms-kids