Puppy went for 3 year old. What shalI I do?

[Spellbound454]

Phoebe is a five month old border collie. She is loving, sweet, and great with other dogs.
I have been training her and she is in the top class already.....very, very intelligent.

...but she has been showing signs of becoming nervous around the 3 year old by hiding under the table.

Tonight he cornered her on the floor and she snapped at him....didn't leave a mark but she obviously touched him.

So what now? She'll obviously be crated when he is about........but this means no more long walks in the woods for us all.
maybe a muzzle?...don't know  My brilliant little pup is not so good after this.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Sounds like the 3 year old might have done something to her.  Pulled on her tail, played too rough with her, or something.  There's probably a reason she's nervous around him now.

I still remember seeing my younger daughter walking down the stairs holding our cat by the tail when she was a toddler.  Any other cat would have torn her to ribbons.  Wouldn't mean there's anything wrong with the cat.

[cronewitch]

Crating the child is a good idea. Until he learns to respect animal's right to be left alone not cornered you need to crate one of them. When I had a dog that defended herself she got slapped under the chin to shut her mouth quickly so she had to think about that when she decided to bite. She only tried it twice but didn't have to deal with toddlers only dog handlers. They would have her stand and stay then put hands on her which she didn't like. She did dog shows and I warned people who wanted to pet her she might bite but they knew to respect a dogs right not to be handled and she learned not to bite people who felt her while she was forced to stand still.

[grits]

The 3 year old may or may not have done something to the dog. Some animals are just not good around children. If you want to keep the dog, muzzle her.

[mmhmm]

I'd talk to a professional trainer if it were my pup.  Let them know what happened and see what they suggest.  I'm with Dark in that the child probably has done something to the dog to cause the dog to fear him/her.

[grits]

With the safety of the child at stake, it doesn't matter if a 3 year old has or has not bothered the dog. The most important thing is the child's safety. If you can't feel safe leaving the dog and baby alone in a room, you may have a tough decision to make.

   

[The Captain]

Your original post stated the child cornered the dog.  Sorry, stupid to allow that to even happen.  Any cornered animal will defend itself and fight back.

The child needs to learn to respect the dog.  Putting a muzzle on the dog is not fair to the animal.  Keeping it cooped up in a crate most of the time is not fair to the animal.

If you cannot train your child (as well as you've trained your dog) to respect the dog, you need to find it a new home before your child gets hurt.

[Spellbound454]

He has been playing with her since she was 7 weeks...and he has been boisterous, cuddles were more like a strangle.
I let them play because I thought it would introduce her to children........but its had the opposite effect and now she is frightened.

Crating the child is a good idea.

As much as I love the dog, the 3 year old is my priority.
I cant take the risk that she will bite for real. Tonight was a warning shot.....

If you want to keep the dog, muzzle her.

I think I'm going to have to at Christmas.

I'd talk to a professional trainer if it were my pup. Let them know what happened and see what they suggest.

Yes I'll ask them what they think when I go on Friday.
There may be something they can suggest.

[Deleted]

I don't think a border collie and a toddler are a good mix.  Talk to the trainer but I think it's ridiculous to expect a dog to sit back and take it if a child is doing something to it (which may or may not have happened in this case).  The dog could also be frightened of the toddler.  Can you keep the dog in a separate room when the toddler's around (I'm guessing it's not your child)?  otherwise, crate the dog and keep the toddler away.  if the 3 year old is your child then you have bigger prolems - puppies and toddlers aren't a good mix.

[dannylion]

The dog has learned to fear the child because the child has been allowed to basically abuse the dog. If it is not possible to retrain the child to treat the dog appropriately under close supervision, please find a new home for the dog.  The dog did not ask to be put into an impossible situation and does not deserve to be punished for defending itself or to be crated or muzzled for long periods.

[Spellbound454]

Keeping it cooped up in a crate most of the time is not fair to the animal.

If you cannot train your child (as well as you've trained your dog) to respect the dog, you need to find it a new home before your child gets hurt.

He isn't here all the time........and she would need to be crated when the family comes....which will be 2 days at Christmas

I'm so disappointed...She is a great pup...and its gone wrong.

[The Captain]

Dec 1, 2013 15:22:49 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Keeping it cooped up in a crate most of the time is not fair to the animal.

If you cannot train your child (as well as you've trained your dog) to respect the dog, you need to find it a new home before your child gets hurt.

He isn't here all the time........and she would need to be crated when the family comes....which will be 2 days at Christmas

I'm so disappointed...She is a great pup...and its gone wrong.

I hope you are not disappointed with the pup.  If the child has been rough with her, she showed great restraint by not drawing blood.

Glad to hear it's not your child, that makes dealing with this a lot easier.  If you have guests you have the right to set house rules, one of which should be - respect the dog.

I'm not a big believer in punishing the pet because someone's kid can't behave.  The child's parents should be told in no uncertain terms to keep a leash on their kid (pun intended).

[Sum Dum Gai]

She's still most likely a great pup, but the child needs to learn how to interact with animals. If you corner a nervous animal you get nipped, bit, or scratched. The kid might not be old enough to understand that, which is why he shouldn't be playing with the dog alone until he's older. You don't need to crate either of them, you need to be there if they're playing though.

[Apple]

I'd say if the dog didn't leave a mark, she's a pretty good dog.

We've had animals and children around each other forever.  The cats would swat at a young child with no claws out, as a "warning".  They wouldn't swat at a baby at all (once they realized it was a baby).  Us older kids would get claws when we were rough housing with the cats (all in fun, the cats enjoyed it too, but they'd use their claws).

That the dog left no mark, to me, is a sign that this dog realizes it is a child, but felt it had to do something to get the warning through.  Hiding under the table seemed to be its attempt at a non-physical warning.

I wouldn't crate the dog if there is a room where it can hang out without the child being allowed in (the bedroom, laundry room, whatever).  And I'd still do long walks in the woods if there is one person to hold the dog leash and one person to keep the child away.

I would make sure there is never unsupervised play between the two until the child is older and the dog is no longer nervous around him.

[Deleted]

Have picture of the pup? I have 2 border collies.

How strong is its natural herding instinct?

[mmhmm]

I found this on the site of a border collie breeder, spellbound:

Are Border Collies Good with Children?

Border collies are good with children if they are properly socialized and trained. Border collies are not generally my first choice of a “family” dog. This is because Border collies can get overly excited by very active young children. Border collies require a fair amount of time and training and busy parents with young children can find the added responsibility and time commitment of a young Border collie a real chore. We generally do not recommend Border collies for families with children less than 5 years old. Despite this Border collies can be wonderful family dogs so long as their needs are met.


link

[Sharon]

I had this issue with our sheltie collie.  She never ever did accept my DD once she was born.  I was always careful to not let DD corner or otherwise "play" with the dog.  As they both grew older they learned to just ignore each other and were able to occupy the same space.  When we had company over Toby was put in the back yard or the bedroom because I didn't feel like I could trust him to not bite. 

Yes I did receive a lot of criticism for not re-homing him or putting him down because he was a biter, instead I chose to work with the situation I was given.

[mmhmm]

We had a border collie when I was a kid.  Blaze used to keep my little brother (five years younger than I) from running into the street by grabbing the back of his diaper and sitting him down.  She was a wonderful dog and very well-behaved; however, my little brother wasn't a "wild child", either.  He usually played quietly and wasn't allowed to chase the dog, or rough-house with the dog.  In return, the dog was his protector.

[Spellbound454]

I hope you are not disappointed with the pup. If the child has been rough with her, she showed great restraint by not drawing blood.

I'm disappointed because I wanted a family friendly dog.... and have been careful to train her and socialise her with dogs and humans.....she has been absolute delight, until now.

Yes Apple maybe I'll just take it steady and try not to over-react. Introduce her gradually to the little one until she is not afraid....and make sure he knows how to treat her.

I'll have to try to sort it out......You can't rehome a child aggressive dog.

[mmhmm]

Hopefully, the trainers will have some answers/suggestions for you, spellbound.  Sounds to me like some training will be needed on both sides of the problem equation - the dog will need training and control, and the child will need training and control.  From what the breeder said on her website, these dogs don't take well to loud, highly active kids running around them. Since they're herding dogs, that makes good sense to me.  They herd sheep by nipping at their heels.  The little one needs to learn to leave the dog alone and to respect the dog's space.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2013 15:50:12 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I hope you are not disappointed with the pup. If the child has been rough with her, she showed great restraint by not drawing blood.

I'm disappointed because I wanted a family friendly dog.... and have been careful to train her and socialise her with dogs and humans.....she has been absolute delight, until now.

Yes Apple maybe I'll just take it steady and try not to over-react. Introduce her gradually to the little one until she is not afraid....and make sure he knows how to treat her.

I'll have to try to sort it out......You can't rehome a child aggressive dog.

did you do your research before getting her?  I would not think a puppy, any puppy, is good for little kids....and a dog with herding tendencies is not good for little kids. 

and while you can't rehome a child aggressive dog, you can ban them from your house if the parents don't do their job and keep the dog safe from the kid

[Spellbound454]

How strong is its natural herding instinct?

Very strong. She is very intelligent from champion working lines......She'll herd other dogs, ducks and even me when we go on our twice daily walks.
I had hoped to train her up then do agility, obedience and flyball when she is older......and have a family dog which we can all enjoy on walks in the countryside.

[The Captain]

I'll have to try to sort it out......You can't rehome a child aggressive dog.

I used to volunteer for a shelter and I can't tell you how many times we would hear about the child aggressive dog.  We would foster those dogs with families who had kids/parents that were trained how to act around dogs.  In a majority of the cases there was no issue with the dog, we could only conclude they came from a household where the child was allowed to abuse the dog, or did not know how to act around a dog.  

To put it in perspective, I think your thread should be titled "Dog showed restraint against aggressive child" as opposed to dog went after three year old.  

Heck, I'm a grown adult and there are times I want to bite unruly children...

[Spellbound454]

did you do your research before getting her? I would not think a puppy, any puppy, is good for little kids....and a dog with herding tendencies is not good for little kids.

Yes I had a rescue Collie before....I wanted a pup this time to make sure she was well raised....and didn't have the neglect issues the last one had when I got her.

Hopefully, the trainers will have some answers/suggestions for you, spellbound. Sounds to me like some training will be needed on both sides of the problem equation - the dog will need training and control, and the child will need training and control. From what the breeder said on her website, these dogs don't take well to loud, highly active kids running around them. Since they're herding dogs, that makes good sense to me. They herd sheep by nipping at their heels. The little one needs to learn to leave the dog alone and to respect the dog's space.

Yes I'm thinking I could ring tomorrow before I go next time. They do support the members of the club out of hours.

[dannylion]

It is unlikely that the dog is naturally "child aggressive." The dog is just trying to protect itself from a dog-aggressive child. If you cannot train the child to treat the dog properly, please don't have the dog put down. Contact the Best Friends Animal Society.  They might take the dog and allow it to live its life in a safe environment.

[Spellbound454]

please don't have the dog put down.

The trainers won't allow that....they specialise in problem dogs. Really got my last one sorted out who had been seriously neglected when I got her.

Thanks guys....I'm not panicking quite so much now. Seems like there is options.

[mmhmm]

I'm glad you've been able to step back from the situation enough to get a good look at it, spellbound.  Your dog actually behaved very well under the circumstances, IMO.  She was cornered and frightened and she didn't bite.  I'd be willing to bet with some help from the trainers, and some education of the child involved, this will work itself out beautifully.

[violagirl]

As others have said - you need to talk to your trainer who hopefully is a positive trainer and not a yank and crank one.

If the dog is hiding under tables to get away from the child, then you need to listen to what the dog is telling you and let him get away from the child.

Socializing a dog with children involves more than just letting kids and dogs be around each other. It means making sure it is a good experience for the dog ie. whether seeing the child = treats, playing with a toy, or something equally valuable to the dog, you start to build positive associations with children in the dogs brain.

Never let a child try to hug a dog. I even discourage people from approaching my dogs to pet them. If the dog wants to be petted (gently), then the dog will come up and ask for it.

Never leave kids and dogs unsupervised.

The fact your 5 month old dog bit but didn't leave a mark, shows the dog has developed bite inhibition which is very good. Dogs give a lot of signals before they get to the biting as a last resort, but people don't usually pick up on them. Signs of stress in dogs: nose and lip licking, panting, yawning, ears back, avoidence by looking away, sniffing the ground, turning away, shaking off, tail down. Dogs will usually run through most of these behaviours before they resort to "whale eye"..you know whey they look up and you see whites of their eye with tense body, tense mouth - if you keep coming that will likely end in a bite.

Here are a couple of good websites with information about dogs/training/children:

www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/conditioning-dogs-accept-children
www.4pawsu.com/stresssigns.html

[Tiny]

In general, dogs and children shouldn't be left alone together anyway.  Even the most submissive, loving dog, may bite.   go google some stats on dog bites - it's not all "roaming packs of wild dogs' or aggressive neighbor's dogs.   The majority are the family's own dog. 

If it was my pup, and my pup wasn't showing other signs of aggression (like protecting their food bowl or toys) or being aggressive 'protecting the house or yard' (yeah, it's one thing to bark and make a fuss - but it's another thing to hurl themselves at doors/fences/windows snapping and snarling - to the point where you need to physically restrain the dog so someone can enter your house/yard.)  

If you've noticed he pup has other aggressive behaviors you may have to make some tough decisions.

If it was just when the little kid was around -- I'd do some research/talk to a trainer and see what I could do to 'keep the peace' and help the dog to proper behavior AND I'd change what I did when kids were around the dog as well.    If the kid(s) are not around full time -  I'd probably let the kids/dog have some supervised together time and then I'd probably crate the dog (dog needs a nap, dog needs his quiet time, whatever)  while the kid was around.  I'd  probably also crate the dog during big chaotic family gatherings.   My SIL, a total and complete dog lover, would do this with some of her beloved dogs that didn't handle the chaos or kids well.   

For what it's worth I had a party with kids attending - it was a yard party so I made sure the cats had access to their 'safe places'.   Sure enough a couple of the kids got into the house and hunted down the cats.  I found two little kids trying to a cat out from under my queensized bed by attempting to poke the cat with the feathers on a stick toys the kids somehow got from off the top of the fridge.    My little black cat squished herself under a dresser and went 'invisible'.  My giant orange cat had to tough it out under the bed since he doesn't fit under any other furniture.       I was calm and gave the kids a lecture on the appropriate way to make friends with cats (and told them they had lost their chance to do so with mine   while getting the kids into another room with some kid appropriate things to do.  Basically trying to say that kids will do stuff you don't expect.   I never expected the kids to actively go looking for my hiding cats.    I knew the cats would hide as soon as the doorbell rang the first time OR when they realized there were strangers in the yard.  

I got the kids away and closed the bedroom door.    My poor cats didn't come out from hiding for nearly 6 hours AFTER the crowd had left... even with me doing alittle coaxing.     The cats were fine and I'll be much more carefull in the future when little kids are over to my house.  Poor kitties.

 

[steph08]

I don't think you or the dog are doing anything wrong. The dog has tolerated all it can from the child, so when it is tired and doesn't want to play, it does the correct thing and tries to get away by hiding under the table, etc. It doesn't automatically go straight to biting the child - it removes itself from the situation in order to calm down. The problem is that you (or the child's parent, whoever) continue to allow the child to bother the puppy even though the puppy is obviously trying to remain in control and just leave the child alone.

I think working with the behaviorist will help, but it's not really the dog's fault.  The dog and the child should interact, but after a period of time, they should be separated because the dog is still a puppy and can't control its behavior/emotions for that long. Dogs and children that young shouldn't be left alone together in rooms anyway - especially a young child and a young dog. Both are unpredictable.