dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Dec 1, 2013 17:52:06 GMT -5
The problem does not appear to be the dog. It is not the dog's fault. The child must be trained to treat the dog appropriately and not allowed to continue to "strangle" it. If the child cannot or will not treat the dog properly, the dog should be protected from the child.
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dannylion
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Gravity is a harsh mistress
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Post by dannylion on Dec 1, 2013 19:13:29 GMT -5
It might help your perspective to reevaluate how you think of what happened between the dog and the child. It sounds like the dog didn't "go for" the 3-year-old. The dog had retreated to find a safe place and the child continued to harass it, so the dog defended itself. It was frightened and confused. I hope the trainers can offer a solution. Otherwise, Best Friends or a Border Collie rescue group might be the best option for the dog. Sending good thoughts for a successful outcome for all concerned.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Dec 1, 2013 19:17:26 GMT -5
Spellbound - the dog can still go for walks in the woods and be a great family dog. In fact, getting her into agility, shows, etc. will probably help her be a great family dog.
My parents' dog snapped at my 18 month old a few months ago. My parents took her to a trainer to see what they could do - the trainer said "She snapped - she didn't bite. If she wanted to bite she would have. The toddler is violating her boundaries and she doesn't like it, so keep it from happening." And the trainer was right. We go to my parents once a month or so and just watch the toddler and the dog - the dog goes in the bedroom or outside if she's getting nervous, and we make sure that B doesn't act inappropriately around the dog. As our toddler ages and is better able to control herself, it will be less of an issue, and they will coexist just fine.
Also, as others have stated dogs and children should never be left alone together.
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 1, 2013 22:56:26 GMT -5
You do realize you trained her to associate struggling and unwanted attention with the 3 year old, right? If the dog was struggling to get away when it was younger (and therefore smaller and might not have the ability to outwit/outrun/out wriggle a 3 year old) you should have separated the two - and redirected the 3 year old to appropriate puppy play.
She's young enough that reintroducing her to the child might erase what has previously happened, but both the dog and the child have to be reintroduced and watched.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 1, 2013 23:17:32 GMT -5
I'm always surprised how many people believe animals can do no wrong. Yes the kid needs to know its not okay to chase or corner the dog (and a million other dog/pet rules and queues that 3 year Olds aren't going to be able to grasp) but the dog needs to know biting humans isn't an option, ever.
That said we operate our house under the rule that any dog may bite at anytime. We had 4 dogs when DS was born and still have 3 dogs now with 2 kids. We're seriously outnumbered, and have a house of behavioral and medical rejects on our hands. No amount of training is going to change my dogs instincts and personalities. (Trust me-i tried!) Just like people, nurture doesn't always (or even usually ) trump nature.
Our dogs have essentially 0 access to the kids unless we are present and strictly supervising. At 3-4 DS started helping feed the dogs and letting them in or out. He plays fetch with the lab, but only as long as the lab has near perfect behavior. If she slips with him even on a basic command/manner the game is over. Its a pain and I will never have another dog because of it, but it is what it is.
I'd keep the dog separated when grandchild comes to visit and leash walk when out. Since children don't live with you full time it should be relatively easy to control their interactions to keep everyone safe.
Sent from my Droid using proboards
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 23:34:26 GMT -5
Phoebe is a five month old border collie. In dog years, the puppy is 3 years old too. I agree with others, it sounds sort of like a situation of two kids being left alone, and one is scaring and beating up on the other. The dog was trying to get away or avoid, and the kid was following to keep freaking it out. Snapping from dogs is not acceptable to me, even warning shots, and I'd work to make sure the puppy knows that. But at the same time, the kid needs to have the exact same training; beating up the puppy and scaring it is not acceptable. Kids are trained not to hit, pull the hair of, bite or strangle other kids. Dogs and cats are in the same category. I agree with others, to closely supervise or don't allow interactions between them until the kid understands. I think it'd be good for the kid, because if he thinks that sort of treatment for older dogs is okay, he seems likely to actually get bit. In the mean time, if need be, are there some calm/mellow/pre-animal trained kids you could maybe introduce the puppy to, also under close supervision? So the puppy keeps socializing with different types and realizes some kids are just going to pet it and run around with it? You might already have this covered, but just wanted to toss it out there. Good luck!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 1, 2013 23:37:59 GMT -5
I must be the only one who was flinching every time I read "you have to train your child".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 23:45:02 GMT -5
I must be the only one who was flinching every time I read "you have to train your child". Is it the word itself you find odd in connection to kids? I hear often of potty training, training wheels, etc. I personally say that I'm trained in skills like accountancy and drafting. In my mind "trained" just means that I or others were guided in topics that needed to be done in specific ways.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 1, 2013 23:53:25 GMT -5
He isn't here all the time........and she would need to be crated when the family comes....which will be 2 days at Christmas I'm so disappointed...She is a great pup...and its gone wrong. Please don't be disappointed in your puppy. The child did something to that puppy that scared her. And because your pup snapped at that particular child doesn't mean your puppy is "child aggressive". It means your puppy is frightened of that particular child. Dogs are very smart, as you have already seen. (With a few exceptions - my mother's little pug was the dumbest dog I have ever come into contact with.) Your puppy knows who scared/hurt/cornered her. She would probably be just fine with other children. I totally get what you are saying about priorities. I have a very large German Shepherd. His "job" is to be protective. I absolutely do not think he would hurt a child. However, I'd never take the chance. If small children are around - he is kept out of the room. Here at home, it is just him and me. He doesn't understand getting his tail pulled or his ears pulled or his feet tromped on. While I'm confident he wouldn't retaliate, I've heard others say that and the next thing you know, some child is missing their face. Give your pup a cooling off period. I bet she's going to be just fine. Keep her separated from the child with a child safety gate for awhile. You don't need to crate or muzzle her. Just keep her out of the room where the child is until the child can learn to play nicely.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 2, 2013 0:00:30 GMT -5
I must be the only one who was flinching every time I read "you have to train your child". Is it the word itself you find odd in connection to kids?I hear often of potty training, training wheels, etc. I personally say that I'm trained in skills like accountancy and drafting. In my mind "trained" just means that I or others were guided in topics that needed to be done in specific ways. I don't know....may be I am reading too much into it, but this whole thread people are saying how OP should be training her 3 yr old to do this and that. Like her kid is just another dog or something. To be honest, I didn't even understand at first that OP was about a dog and a child. I thought it was about two dogs. Anyway, I need to stay away from this thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 2:04:24 GMT -5
I don't know....may be I am reading too much into it, but this whole thread people are saying how OP should be training her 3 yr old to do this and that. A dog's life often hinges on never, under any circumstances biting humans. The puppy absolutely needs to know snapping isn't okay. But in my opinion the child wouldn't be getting any favors by only schooling the puppy and letting the kid continue to think dogs are moving stuffed animals he can beat up. Like Anne said, safety instruction is a major part of childhood. If there's a potentially dangerous situation or attitude, kids need guidance and/or supervision until they get it. Not all dogs run away first or try warnings. If he thinks teasing and strangling dogs is the appropriate way to play, that's a safety gap, IMO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 7:03:21 GMT -5
I'm always surprised how many people believe animals can do no wrong. Yes the kid needs to know its not okay to chase or corner the dog (and a million other dog/pet rules and queues that 3 year Olds aren't going to be able to grasp) but the dog needs to know biting humans isn't an option, ever. That said we operate our house under the rule that any dog may bite at anytime. We had 4 dogs when DS was born and still have 3 dogs now with 2 kids. We're seriously outnumbered, and have a house of behavioral and medical rejects on our hands. No amount of training is going to change my dogs instincts and personalities. (Trust me-i tried!) Just like people, nurture doesn't always (or even usually ) trump nature. Our dogs have essentially 0 access to the kids unless we are present and strictly supervising. At 3-4 DS started helping feed the dogs and letting them in or out. He plays fetch with the lab, but only as long as the lab has near perfect behavior. If she slips with him even on a basic command/manner the game is over. Its a pain and I will never have another dog because of it, but it is what it is. I'd keep the dog separated when grandchild comes to visit and leash walk when out. Since children don't live with you full time it should be relatively easy to control their interactions to keep everyone safe. Sent from my Droid using proboards and I'm always surprised by the number of people who blame the dog when it's the owner who didn't bother to train or supervise the dog or the kid who was allowed to torment and annoy the dog and then the dog does something back. it's no different from the kid who's always picked on who one day turns around and hits the other kid. I'm of the firm opinion that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. you have a system where neither of those things can occur. I also don't think dogs should be allowed off leash except at dog parks or in a fenced back yard.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 2, 2013 8:51:43 GMT -5
I don't know....may be I am reading too much into it, but this whole thread people are saying how OP should be training her 3 yr old to do this and that. A dog's life often hinges on never, under any circumstances biting humans. The puppy absolutely needs to know snapping isn't okay. But in my opinion the child wouldn't be getting any favors by only schooling the puppy and letting the kid continue to think dogs are moving stuffed animals he can beat up. Like Anne said, safety instruction is a major part of childhood. If there's a potentially dangerous situation or attitude, kids need guidance and/or supervision until they get it. Not all dogs run away first or try warnings. If he thinks teasing and strangling dogs is the appropriate way to play, that's a safety gap, IMO. I agree with everything you are saying. 100% May be I am not a "pet" person. May be having a 3.5 yr old and a 2 yr old screws my views. But it would never occur to me to start "training" a toddler in this situation. But I've mentioned before that my parenting ideas are probably not very mainstream, so that's why I try to stay away from threads like this one. BTW, my husband has grown up with lots and lots of pets. And he is very firm on waiting to get a dog until our 3 kids are a bit older. So, for now, we have turtles.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Dec 2, 2013 9:03:29 GMT -5
A dog's life often hinges on never, under any circumstances biting humans. The puppy absolutely needs to know snapping isn't okay. But in my opinion the child wouldn't be getting any favors by only schooling the puppy and letting the kid continue to think dogs are moving stuffed animals he can beat up. Like Anne said, safety instruction is a major part of childhood. If there's a potentially dangerous situation or attitude, kids need guidance and/or supervision until they get it. Not all dogs run away first or try warnings. If he thinks teasing and strangling dogs is the appropriate way to play, that's a safety gap, IMO. I agree with everything you are saying. 100% May be I am not a "pet" person. May be having a 3.5 yr old and a 2 yr old screws my views. But it would never occur to me to start "training" a toddler in this situation. But I've mentioned before that my parenting ideas are probably not very mainstream, so that's why I try to stay away from threads like this one. BTW, my husband has grown up with lots and lots of pets. And he is very firm on waiting to get a dog until our 3 kids are a bit older. So, for now, we have turtles. And as someone with an 18 month old and two dogs, it would never occur to me not to teach or "train" my daughter how to behave around dogs. Right now, she is only allowed around dogs we know, only when an adult is present, and if she wants to pet them we demonstrate how to gently pet dogs. She is not allowed to climb on the dogs or step on them, etc. She can hug our dogs, but only if she asks me and I observe the dog to make sure the dog is in a calm mindset. In my mind it's no different than "training" your child to look both ways or hold your hand before crossing the street. Basic safety. Seriously, not judging here at all - but do you plan not to teach your kids stuff like that? (I know some parents are very free-range, and I don't have a problem with how other people raise their kids - just curious.)
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 2, 2013 9:06:29 GMT -5
I must be the only one who was flinching every time I read "you have to train your child". So you don't train your kids not to run into the street, not to run away from you in parking lots? Even if this dog is the most placid dog in the world, not all dogs are and the child learns to treat ALL dogs with respect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 9:20:51 GMT -5
I train my kids to respect animals. I don't see that as anything but good parenting. I live on a farm and some of the animals around here could easily kill a child, so even though I supervise my toddler, IMO it's never too early to ingrain in them things like to not torment dogs or walk up behind horses. Abuse of any kind is not tolerated and both my boys have a lot of empathy for critters (my 3 year old will even get upset if I call the cat stupid. )
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 2, 2013 9:24:43 GMT -5
I agree with everything you are saying. 100% May be I am not a "pet" person. May be having a 3.5 yr old and a 2 yr old screws my views. But it would never occur to me to start "training" a toddler in this situation. But I've mentioned before that my parenting ideas are probably not very mainstream, so that's why I try to stay away from threads like this one. BTW, my husband has grown up with lots and lots of pets. And he is very firm on waiting to get a dog until our 3 kids are a bit older. So, for now, we have turtles. And as someone with an 18 month old and two dogs, it would never occur to me not to teach or "train" my daughter how to behave around dogs. Right now, she is only allowed around dogs we know, only when an adult is present, and if she wants to pet them we demonstrate how to gently pet dogs. She is not allowed to climb on the dogs or step on them, etc. She can hug our dogs, but only if she asks me and I observe the dog to make sure the dog is in a calm mindset. In my mind it's no different than "training" your child to look both ways or hold your hand before crossing the street. Basic safety. Seriously, not judging here at all - but do you plan not to teach your kids stuff like that? (I know some parents are very free-range, and I don't have a problem with how other people raise their kids - just curious.) I am not free range AT ALL. But I like to 1) make my life easier when possible and 2) look at the big picture. So, in this instance, like I said, we are waiting on getting a dog. It would take much more of my time to "train" or explain or teach a 3 yr old about how to be around dogs vs a 5 yr old or 7 yr old. As far as crossing the street - while I do tell them to look both ways, at 3, I am not expecting them to do it, that's why I very firmly hold their hands. My bottom line is that I try to align my expectations of them with their abilities and not try to force a task on them bc at the end of the day it would make MY life harder. If I just wait until they are able to do it, the whole "training" becomes non-existent bc it's not needed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 9:34:03 GMT -5
And as someone with an 18 month old and two dogs, it would never occur to me not to teach or "train" my daughter how to behave around dogs. Right now, she is only allowed around dogs we know, only when an adult is present, and if she wants to pet them we demonstrate how to gently pet dogs. She is not allowed to climb on the dogs or step on them, etc. She can hug our dogs, but only if she asks me and I observe the dog to make sure the dog is in a calm mindset. In my mind it's no different than "training" your child to look both ways or hold your hand before crossing the street. Basic safety. Seriously, not judging here at all - but do you plan not to teach your kids stuff like that? (I know some parents are very free-range, and I don't have a problem with how other people raise their kids - just curious.) I am not free range AT ALL. But I like to 1) make my life easier when possible and 2) look at the big picture. So, in this instance, like I said, we are waiting on getting a dog. It would take much more of my time to "train" or explain or teach a 3 yr old about how to be around dogs vs a 5 yr old or 7 yr old. As far as crossing the street - while I do tell them to look both ways, at 3, I am not expecting them to do it, that's why I very firmly hold their hands. My bottom line is that I try to align my expectations of them with their abilities and not try to force a task on them bc at the end of the day it would make MY life harder. If I just wait until they are able to do it, the whole "training" becomes non-existent bc it's not needed Even if YOU don't get a dog, your kids are more than likely still going to encounter them and should know how to behave around them. Plus what if you wait to get a dog until your kids are 5 and 7 and get an oops baby a couple years later? Going to get rid of the dog so you don't have to "train" the younger child? My house dog and cat have been around here longer than either of my kids.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 2, 2013 9:40:47 GMT -5
I am not saying kids shouldn't learn how to behave around dogs. I am saying that "I" don't expect a 3 yr old to be able to do that, unsupervised, 100% of the time.
There are a lot of things that I teach and expose my kids to, but it doesn't mean that I expect them to master it at certain ages.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2013 9:51:53 GMT -5
It would take much more of my time to "train" or explain or teach a 3 yr old about how to be around dogs vs a 5 yr old or 7 yr old.
Not really. We've been working with Gwen and the dogs since Gwen was old enough to start grabbing at them. When she was smaller I'd grab her arm and say "No, like THIS" and pet the dog with her properly. I also praised the dogs for being calm and showing restraint. She she's gotten older we've enforced boundaries. Like Anne the only time Gwen gets in big trouble with the dogs is when she tries to get in their kennels. We've taught her not to follow and when Midnight growls that means "leave me alone". We've also taught her not to follow the dogs if they retreat into our bedroom or under the table because that means they want to be left alone.
It's hard sometimes because our Aussie has the patience of a saint but our Lab does not. I need to remind DH from time to time that the rules need to be the same for both dogs since Gwen isn't old enough to get the behavorial nuances between the dogs.
That being said we would have rehomed if need be. For awhile we thought we might have to rehome Midnight because she was so skittish but she mellowed out with some training.
Every situation is different and needs to be handled accordingly. I can't exactly give Gwen back if they can't live in peace so that means a dog has to go. Gwen's safety has to come first.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 9:57:10 GMT -5
I am not saying kids shouldn't learn how to behave around dogs. I am saying that "I" don't expect a 3 yr old to be able to do that, unsupervised, 100% of the time.There are a lot of things that I teach and expose my kids to, but it doesn't mean that I expect them to master it at certain ages. I don't think anyone expects a 3 year old to do that. Although, I have to say that both my boys at 3 were pretty close. I think a lot of it is they are around so many animals all the time. It's not a novelty thing for them. But I see parents with kids just letting them torment animals without saying a word and then blaming the dog or cat when things happen.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 2, 2013 10:06:59 GMT -5
It would take much more of my time to "train" or explain or teach a 3 yr old about how to be around dogs vs a 5 yr old or 7 yr old.
Not really. We've been working with Gwen and the dogs since Gwen was old enough to start grabbing at them. When she was smaller I'd grab her arm and say "No, like THIS" and pet the dog with her properly. I also praised the dogs for being calm and showing restraint. Um...yes, really. I didn't have to "work" at all with my oldest. When he was old enough, my IL's just showed to him ONCE how to handle their dogs and that was it. You kind of just proved my point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 10:14:19 GMT -5
We didn't get a dog until the kids were 6 & 7 and DD, at 8, still gets too "smothery" with the dog on occasion. She went from one extreme to the other! She was terrified of dogs when we brought ours home and now she wants to dress it up as a baby and walk it in a stroller! So even at older ages some kids need to be "trained" in appropriate animal handling. *sigh....
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2013 10:16:36 GMT -5
So what am I supposed to do? Get rid of the dogs because it's "too hard" to teach Gwen how to interact properly with them? I'll admit my house would be a lot cleaner and quieter without dogs but taking 10-20 seconds to teach Gwen to pet the dogs properly whenever she got grabby was hardly difficult. Deciding it's too much work for me to teach my 3 yr old is hardly a valid reason to rehome them, IMO. If Midnight had continued to remain super skittish and if she'd snapped/bit we would have to rehome her. It wouldn't have been fair to her to live under constant stress. But I'm not going to give them up because I deem it too much work to teach a toddler not to grab a dog.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Dec 2, 2013 10:27:31 GMT -5
I suppose the issue is we expect 3 year old children to make mistakes and we know their limitations, but sometimes we put very high expectations on our animals. I don't think it is a conscious thing, or if it is the Disneyifacation factor, but often dogs bear the brunt of our expectations.
If a 3 year old child can't be taught to respect a dogs space, then why would a person expect a 5 month old dog not to behave instinctually and defend itself?
I think a no unsupervised dog/children interactions and a no hugging rule would clear up a a lot of bites.
The idea that all dogs love children or love to meet other dogs and can handle any amount of rough handling is misguided. Just as there are a lot of people who dont' like children, don't like "in your face" talkers and will only take so much abuse before reacting, different dogs have different thresholds. Owners need to not expect perfection from animals or be surprised when animals behave like animals.
I have reactive dogs, so I am keenly aware of their every nuance, but even they will give a lot of signals before getting to the point of no return. Generally I see this in their interaction with other dogs, I wouldn't let a tense situation go very far between them and people.
If you think your children will never be in contact with a dog, then by all means don't train them in basic manners around animals.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Dec 2, 2013 10:33:42 GMT -5
YOu don't have "problem dog", you have a problem situation, which you allowed to happen as you did not prevent the child from handling that puppy properly to begin with.
Re-home the dog, until YOU realize the real problem, that dog is doomed.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Dec 2, 2013 10:38:09 GMT -5
Does the dog have a safe place to retreat to? I would set up the crate in an area where the child is not allowed so that the dog can safely run away and not feel cornered.
We've been working with DD (2.5) and our lab/pointer mix on playing well together. The dog is 8 but still really hyper. She has so far been very gentle with DD but we never leave them alone unsupervised because as soon as the dog gets excited she knocks DD over with her tail or by bumping in to her. DD is having to learn to not scream when the dog comes up to sniff her and how to pet gently. We know the dog has had enough when she goes into the kitchen. We let her retreat there and don't let DD follow her. If she really needs some space she begs to go out to the back yard. DD can also retreat into her bedroom and the dog is not allowed to follow her in there. So each one has a "safe" space to go.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 2, 2013 10:52:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry you. Didn't protect your dog from unwanted advances. I feel that the dog is no different than a child, I would protect my child if someone was accosting them. Both are helpless and depend on you to protect them.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Dec 2, 2013 11:01:43 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of crates personally, but I've gated dogs in "their" room before. Sort of like someone said they did with the fence around the crate - they had space to move and drink. Mine got the library so they had a really comfy couch to snooze on too. My dogs (and cat) predated the kids, so when the kids were born, we introduced them to each other. They weren't allowed in her room at all (my cat liked to sleep on top of people and I was afraid she'd smother DD,) so when DD was in her room, the door was closed. The dogs were 9 and 10 when I got them. I'd like another dog but not until the kids are older. I lost all of mine several years ago, so we've been pet free for 2-3 years now. And I do teach the kids to ask before petting dogs, I've pointed out working dogs and told them they can't pet/play with them. I expect my kids to have basic manners for people and pets - which to me = not grabbing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 2, 2013 11:03:28 GMT -5
We never had animal s when my kids were younger because of the EXs allergies. But I taught them from day one to ask the owner and never run up or act aggressive. Children can be trained just like pets. And should be.
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