NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2013 11:09:53 GMT -5
People at the Farmer's Market are always surprised when I make Gwen ask to pet their dogs. Well duh, you never know. You should never approach a strange dog without speaking to the owner.
Wish more adults understood that. I'm not sure how "my dog doesn't like strangers" could be made any clearer.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Dec 2, 2013 11:15:03 GMT -5
People at the Farmer's Market are always surprised when I make Gwen ask to pet their dogs. Well duh, you never know. You should never approach a strange dog without speaking to the owner.
Wish more adults understood that. I'm not sure how "my dog doesn't like strangers" could be made any clearer. Yeah, I know. I tend to assume that dogs at the Farmer's Market are pretty social but you never know. I was bit on the check when I was a kid by a neighborhood dog I played with a lot. The owner called my parents to give them a heads up - the dog had already had a full day of playing with grandkids when I showed up and he didn't want to play. And I didn't get that at the time. I did learn a bit of a lesson with that, which I probably needed.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2013 11:25:25 GMT -5
A friend of mine got bit by our pug when we were younger. She threw a blanket over Penny's face and then got up in it. Penny freaked out and bit her. My dad talked to her parents to let them know the dog had all her shots. Her parents said they knew she had to have done something stupid, they didn't blame my parents or the dog. Unfortunately nowadays that's not how things work around here. It's 100% the dog's fault. So I take no chances with Midnight. DH got on BIL's case because he was tormenting Midnight when he was at our house. Midnight would have been at fault even though BIL is a jerk and would have deserved his face being torn off. Nobody touches Midnight except me, DH, Gwen and then a small handful of people Midnight is familar with. Sabah is very much a people dog but we still don't let anyone pet her without asking. We keep the rules consistent between dogs and I also don't want kids thinking it's all right to randomly approach strange dogs.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Dec 2, 2013 11:30:11 GMT -5
People at the Farmer's Market are always surprised when I make Gwen ask to pet their dogs. Well duh, you never know. You should never approach a strange dog without speaking to the owner.
Wish more adults understood that. I'm not sure how "my dog doesn't like strangers" could be made any clearer. I really appreciate it when a child approaches and asks for permission to pet my dogs. I always say, "Sure, but they have to sit first". I tell the dog to sit, then tell the child it's OK to pet them. The dog is rewarded for obedience (sitting on command) and the child gets to pet the dog safely. Win-win I have both dogs and grandchildren. When we got the first one (as a puppy), the G'kids were 8, 5, and 2. A year and a half later we got the second dog. He was 3 and was a rescue. There was one "incident". The youngest grandchild (age about 3 or 4 by then) was throwing a tennis ball for the older dog to chase. Then he held the ball up out of the dog's reach. The dog, admittedly, has a thing about tennis balls and jumped trying to get it. In the process he nicked the child between his fingers and drew blood. I took the incident seriously, but I did not re-home the dog. I was negligent for not better supervising the child especially knowing the dog's tennis ball fetish. For some time, I discouraged the tennis ball throwing when the kids were over. Later, I let it continue but closely supervised the situation. The "child" is now a 15 yr/old, the dog is a very elderly 16 and too frail to chase tennis balls anymore. There never was a second incident. FWIW, I have friends who are not dog people. When they come over, the dogs are in my room with the door open and a baby gate for a barrier. Their beds are in there and their water is in the bathroom. They can sleep if they want, come over to the barrier if someone wants to pet them and everyone is fine. Baby gates can be very useful....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 11:49:33 GMT -5
My ex-BIL and his wife always bring their two dogs to all the family things and one of them (both small, under 15 pound dogs) is not a kid dog AT ALL. He gives absolutely no warning and goes straight for the face. I drives me batshit crazy that they keep bringing him to these gatherings that are stressful as hell for him (lots of people/kids in a small space) and then don't pen him up somewhere. IMO that dog should not be around kids ever. Period. But, they don't have any kids and their dogs are their "babies", so God help you if you tell them to get that neurotic nutjob mutt out of here.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Dec 2, 2013 12:09:54 GMT -5
I'm disappointed because I wanted a family friendly dog.... and have been careful to train her and socialise her with dogs and humans.....she has been absolute delight, until now. Yes Apple maybe I'll just take it steady and try not to over-react. Introduce her gradually to the little one until she is not afraid....and make sure he knows how to treat her. I'll have to try to sort it out......You can't rehome a child aggressive dog. Border collies are a working dog and are at their best when they have a job. They're a herding dog and are excellent when provided a lot of opportunity to be outside running and working. To have chosen such a dog without the outlet for the dog to utilize some of it's natural ability is truly sad and in some ways abusive. Find the dog an appropriate home. I know of a few friends who have horse farms and young children and all get along fine. But, these people understand that cattle dogs and herders need work and an outlet. Living on a farm provides that for these dogs. It's not a matter of not being family friendly, it's more a matter that you're not experienced enough or set up to provide a home for this type of a dog.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 2, 2013 12:25:13 GMT -5
Abusive....my behind. When I was young, we had a border collie from the time he was 8 weeks old till he died at a very old age. He was a perfect dog. Never saw a dog behave better and he didn't require much training at all. I have two siblings. We all loved that dog and he loved us. We lived in town so he didn't get to go out and herd cattle. We went on lots of walks so he could get his exercise. No way that dog was abused and believe me....if I had thought so then or now, I would be screaming it from the mountaintops.
Spellbound has a issue she needs to find an answer for. The dog is there. The 3 year old is there. Perhaps instead of criticizing and calling her abusive, negligent, and every other implication I've seen in this thread, we might try to help her with solutions? Cause that "shoulda coulda woulda" isn't helping at all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 12:38:36 GMT -5
My Dad and stepmom have a 6 year old border collie. That dog is great with kids. They live in the suburbs and have an ok sized yard, but nothing great and it has a lot of flower gardens and stuff. Dad walks her every day for exercise (for him and her! LOL) and they take her to the dog park. She has energy for sure, but seems pretty darn happy and loves when kids come to play with her.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2013 12:52:12 GMT -5
Giving the dog a place to escape would be a good start. Put a baby gate up, say into the kitchen, and put the puppy in there when she starts to gets tired of the toddler. Dogs tend to be less stressed if they know they have some place they can hide. They make gates with little doggy doors so the puppy can come and go at will but the kid can't get in.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 2, 2013 12:54:12 GMT -5
all I see are empty quote boxes...
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Dec 2, 2013 13:01:00 GMT -5
Giving the dog a place to escape would be a good start. Put a baby gate up, say into the kitchen, and put the puppy in there when she starts to gets tired of the toddler. Dogs tend to be less stressed if they know they have some place they can hide. They make gates with little doggy doors so the puppy can come and go at will but the kid can't get in.
Snort - my kids got though those doors. Actually, my 50+ lb lab mix got though one too, trying to get away from me when I was yelling at her.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Dec 2, 2013 13:06:31 GMT -5
Hey Spell-
Sorry it happened and it can be really scary. Toddlers are unpredictable and there are a lot of dogs that do not take well to them. First thing to do, never leave them alone together. Second, train the toddler to respect the dogs boundaries and realize when the dog is giving cues to back off. Third, train the dog that all good things come from the toddler. Get some really yummy, stinky delicious treats that the dog only gets from the three year old. Have the toddler help feed the dog dinner, etc.
I've been there, done that. It's work but you can do it. Your dog isn't child aggressive, it's a fear response and you just need to change the association. Watch the dog. She'll likely go to a particular place in the house when she's nervous. My dog chose my walk in closet. Then we made that off limits to our child, and any others in the house. As the child gets older and more predictable- the dog will likely be less nervous. But that is a couple years away. But be careful with any kids that come in the house. Better to crate the dog when you have young visitors.
And a tired dog is a good dog, so make sure she gets plenty of exercise.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 2, 2013 13:07:36 GMT -5
LOL!! You are right - it depends on the dog. Mine could choose to either a) step over it, or b) pick it up in his teeth and throw it aside. But he doesn't because he was raised with them. I don't know if it is a case of being a puppy and the gate being insurmountable so he always thinks it is or what, but he won't bother with it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 2, 2013 13:15:56 GMT -5
Lots of talk about what to do, but at the heart of things, this is a Thunderdome situation. Put them in a room together, only one leaves alive. PPV for $29.99.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 2, 2013 13:20:29 GMT -5
LOL!!!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 2, 2013 13:22:17 GMT -5
Anne My kids are fine with dogs and know what to do. But no way would I expect my 3 yr old to understand all the nuances of the dog and remember all the instructions and allow him to play with any dog unsupervised.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Dec 2, 2013 13:22:38 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of crates personally, but I've gated dogs in "their" room before. Sort of like someone said they did with the fence around the crate - they had space to move and drink. Mine got the library so they had a really comfy couch to snooze on too. My dogs (and cat) predated the kids, so when the kids were born, we introduced them to each other. They weren't allowed in her room at all (my cat liked to sleep on top of people and I was afraid she'd smother DD,) so when DD was in her room, the door was closed. The dogs were 9 and 10 when I got them. I'd like another dog but not until the kids are older. I lost all of mine several years ago, so we've been pet free for 2-3 years now. And I do teach the kids to ask before petting dogs, I've pointed out working dogs and told them they can't pet/play with them. I expect my kids to have basic manners for people and pets - which to me = not grabbing. Dogs are den animals. Which is why they like crates (typically), or crawling under tables, decks, etc. My 105 lb lab would belly crawl to get under the coffee table in the living room. It was hilarious to watch But that was her "safe" place.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Dec 2, 2013 13:22:59 GMT -5
You really have to commit to training and getting out the energy. With our husky mix it was a challenge because she wasn't into chasing anything other than live prey. Kongs kept her occupied for a minute. We had to take very long walks (5 miles) and let her run flat out in off leash areas several times a week. She chewed up four couches out of boredom/anxiety until we crate trained her.
That sounds like my friends husky mix. He can go indefinitely. She walks him 5-6 miles a day. That brings him down to a level of energy that is manageable. I am trying to get my brother to build me a lure coursing box. My dogs love chasing anything that moves. I call them little T-Rexes. They would go crazy for a lure course. Also using the brain drains energy as well, we always forget that having to think zaps a dogs energy. I usually go into a room with the dog with a handful of treats and wait for the dog to start offering behaviours. It is interesting to watch them try to figure out what is going to work. If they do somethign cute, like sneeze, I might guide the training toward putting sneezing on cue. I don't think i'd have the patience to be a dog trainer for a career, but I really enjoy trying to figure out how their dog minds are working.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Dec 2, 2013 14:18:31 GMT -5
Thanks for those websites viola girl. I have had a look and recognise some of the signs of stress. I should have realised she wasn't enjoying it... and separated them long before this happened. Well at least now we know what to look for.
She doesn't...she is sweet and makes friends easily with other dogs. She is in doggy day care and they have all sorts of different dogs to play with every day. She has not shown any aggression up until now....to any dogs or visitors.
Oh dear. Its a bit cheeky going in to your bedroom to terrorise your pets. I'll bet you gave them that lecture through gritted teeth.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Dec 2, 2013 14:46:43 GMT -5
Yes I think so too. She went for him when she couldn't get away. I suppose if she had really wanted to bite, she could have done a lot worse.......though she doesn't have her big teeth yet.
Yes there are kids at the training club, older and more experienced with animals. Thank you for your wishes.
Yep good tip GEL. I could get a gate and keep her in the kitchen at Christmas. The child needs to be away from the oven anyway. She has a crate and a pen but the kitchen is nice and big so she can stretch her legs and keep me company whilst I'm slaving away (as you do)lol
I wish you could come here and teach this child not to get too boisterous around a pup...... but its good that you are teaching your boy the correct way to behave.
Hes not my child but he will certainly have to behave when he comes near the dog again.....I can't take risks with his safety.
Very true.,,,,,Puppies do bite so they are not that good for little kids. They grow out of it and Phoebe hasn't done any puppy biting for months. This was something she meant......A sort of "leave me alone"
Yes we are gong to make sure she doesn't feel anxious and she goes to him as and when she is feeling comfortable.
I have one of his T shirts and I have been letting her smell it then giving her a treat. Next time he comes he can give her treats. (from behind the gate) so she associates him with something nice. or that the plan anyway. We are trying to make it a positive experience for them.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Dec 2, 2013 15:12:46 GMT -5
lol Hello agilemom. I was hoping you would be on This is exactly what the trainer has suggested. Its not a "dominance " issue at all ....she is just a scared pup who is stressed by the over exhuberant cuddling from a boisterous 3 year old. She must not be put in the situation again. She gets loads of exercise and mental stimulation...I wouldn't have taken on a border collie if I wasn't prepared to put the hours in. I know they are not for everybody and they can't be left alone....We were doing well up until now. I agree. people should be able to eat their meals in peace. She isn't allowed near the table when we are eating. I'm a dog owner not trainer...and although I've had a collie before I have been training with the support of a club and people who know what they are talking about. Its too easy to get it wrong.....and I need putting right if I'm making a mistake. I hope to get as far as I can with this dog and do right by her...and that's easier said than done.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Dec 2, 2013 15:15:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your response guys. We have a lot to think about and have made a plan...Hopefully we can get it sorted out. Panicking doesn't really help...that much I do know.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 2, 2013 15:20:28 GMT -5
I didn't read the entire thread, so apologies if these things have been said... Border Collies need tons of activity. do not cut out those long walks. They are a herding breed so they really need tons of training and exercise to keep their minds busy or they will begin herding (things like children) and nipping at them. And since you are raising a child and a dog, don't forget to "train" the child how to act around the dog. There are a lot of people who don't teach their kids how to properly respect an animal and their space, etc. Dogs will give you clues, as yours has already done, regarding how they feel around children. Sometimes it has to be a modification of both dog and human behavior in order to have a peaceful house.
Best of luck with your doggie and kid. Border Collies are amazing dogs!
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Dec 2, 2013 16:06:05 GMT -5
Hes not my child but he will certainly have to behave when he comes near the dog again.....I can't take risks with his safety. Wait- I think I missed something- Does the child not live in the home with the puppy? I was thinking your child -your puppy. If it's a visitor (even one who comes often, the training will change because you can't be as vigilant with someone elses child). If it's a visitor, keep the puppy crated unless you can pay 100% attention to the situation. Then reward the puppy and try and teach the child how to interact with your dog. Much the same as you would set any house rules for a visiting toddler. If the toddler or parent aren't into trying to do it right, just keep the puppy crated for the safety of all. But you must remember that ANY dog can bite given the correct circumstances. Unfortunately, you don't know what those are until after the bite occurs. You can't expect the dog to know how to act, you have to train it for the behavior you want. They don't inherently know to be nice to a kid, much like you have to teach them to sit.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Dec 2, 2013 16:36:35 GMT -5
agilemom, I think the child is a grandchild....
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