Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Dec 5, 2013 14:44:23 GMT -5
Of course, if he does that, the people currently on minimum wage will lose their premium subsidies under PPACA (138% of FPL is right at the cusp of full-time minimum-wage earnings). Unless he raises the FPL proportionately with the hike in minimum wage, which of course will more Americans into poverty, but at least it won't force them to embarrassingly bail out of post-reform "affordable care" because it's unaffordable.
ETA: He'd have a better chance pivoting back to making the tides recede. There is no way that the House will entertain a minimum wage increase under Obama.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 15:07:57 GMT -5
The simplest explanation as to why ObamaCare will be repealed is that it directly effects Every. Single. American. Yes, so does the Patriot Act, but not in a way that people feel. This hits people RIGHT NOW, in a meaningful way- in a financial way. yeah. my friend saved $800 a month on the new exchanges. is that what you meant? If that were true, your "friend" would have been invited to the White House and featured in the President's speech the other day, and the clip would be running non-stop on CNN. Seriously, though- I will take you at your word, but your "friend" is certainly not in the majority. If these stories were out there, they'd be propped up. I've not seen a single person claim to have benefited from ObamaCare. I'm serious about the fact that if they could find someone, they would (not counting those being directed into Medicare). I changed this thread title to ObamaCare Deathwatch because yesterday Obama said, "We're not repealing [ObamaCare] as long as I'm President". Pretty much if he said it, the opposite will happen.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 15:10:03 GMT -5
Guys, Obama has now decided that his signature contribution is going to be raising the minimum wage. So we can knock off the "I-told-you-so" on Obamacare. That is so yesterday. It's time to just let it stew in its own crapulence and pretend like the issue is behind us. Yeah- he's decided, "Quick! Change the subject!" Not going to work.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 15:40:12 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 16:01:58 GMT -5
yeah. my friend saved $800 a month on the new exchanges. is that what you meant? If that were true, your "friend" would have been invited to the White House and featured in the President's speech the other day, and the clip would be running non-stop on CNN. it is totally true, Paul. but the fact that you seem to think it is impossible means that you are not really paying attention.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 16:02:51 GMT -5
yeah. my friend saved $800 a month on the new exchanges. is that what you meant? If that were true, your "friend" would have been invited to the White House and featured in the President's speech the other day, and the clip would be running non-stop on CNN. Seriously, though- I will take you at your word, but your "friend" is certainly not in the majority. If these stories were out there, they'd be propped up. I've not seen a single person claim to have benefited from ObamaCare. I'm serious about the fact that if they could find someone, they would (not counting those being directed into Medicare). I changed this thread title to ObamaCare Deathwatch because yesterday Obama said, "We're not repealing [ObamaCare] as long as I'm President". Pretty much if he said it, the opposite will happen. how?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 16:31:19 GMT -5
If that were true, your "friend" would have been invited to the White House and featured in the President's speech the other day, and the clip would be running non-stop on CNN. Seriously, though- I will take you at your word, but your "friend" is certainly not in the majority. If these stories were out there, they'd be propped up. I've not seen a single person claim to have benefited from ObamaCare. I'm serious about the fact that if they could find someone, they would (not counting those being directed into Medicare). I changed this thread title to ObamaCare Deathwatch because yesterday Obama said, "We're not repealing [ObamaCare] as long as I'm President". Pretty much if he said it, the opposite will happen. how? Democrats will see to it that there is a veto-proof majority sufficient to make substantial changes to the law that effectively gut it- this will happen for sure. Now, if the GOP is smart, they will demand full repeal, or hang them with ObamaCare. The war is over. They've lost. It is doubtful that Democrats will adopt the President's bunker mentality and commit political suicide with him. There is light at the end of the tunnel for Democrats on ObamaCare, but it's a train coming. Killing it quickly and cleanly and getting it behind them as soon as possible is the only reasonable course of action for elected Democrats. Those that think otherwise, are the really scary ones. They are the ones that think that they've got the framework in place for tyrannical one-party rule, and it doesn't matter. These people are not stupid per se, but they are delusional. They have no idea the hell that will be unleashed at the first sign of any further shenanigans from this party- especially those that threaten free and fair elections. * You know better. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 18:11:59 GMT -5
Democrats will see to it that there is a veto-proof majority sufficient to make substantial changes to the law that effectively gut it- this will happen for sure. Now, if the GOP is smart, they will demand full repeal, or hang them with ObamaCare. The war is over. They've lost. It is doubtful that Democrats will adopt the President's bunker mentality and commit political suicide with him. no, what is doubtful is that they will lead an insurrection against him.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 5, 2013 18:26:09 GMT -5
Guys, Obama has now decided that his signature contribution is going to be raising the minimum wage. So we can knock off the "I-told-you-so" on Obamacare. That is so yesterday. It's time to just let it stew in its own crapulence and pretend like the issue is behind us. Of course he wants the minimum wage raised. How else will all his followers afford unaffordable healthcare insurance? We have not even breached the problem of unaffordable prescriptions that the insured will now have to pay their fair share for. Between sizeable insurance payments, copays, and expensive prescriptions, we may not elect another Democrat to the White House for several generations.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 5, 2013 18:31:50 GMT -5
I thought the GOP was quietly switching their message away from the repeal angle since it turns off the independents?
One thing is true- the war is over- and the GOP lost. Have to say they gave it all they could- just not enough. Not enough bullshit on the planet to win it- it actually takes facts, logic, and a real solution being proposed. Going to be hard to fight Obamacare with a GOP plan since Obamacare is pretty much a GOP plan. When are they going to realize they have no solutions other than their original preferred option of 'do nothing at all'?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 5, 2013 18:35:24 GMT -5
Guys, Obama has now decided that his signature contribution is going to be raising the minimum wage. So we can knock off the "I-told-you-so" on Obamacare. That is so yesterday. It's time to just let it stew in its own crapulence and pretend like the issue is behind us. Of course he wants the minimum wage raised. How else will all his followers afford unaffordable healthcare insurance? We have not even breached the problem of unaffordable prescriptions that the insured will now have to pay their fair share for. Between sizeable insurance payments, copays, and expensive prescriptions, we may not elect another Democrat to the White House for several generations. Or maybe elect a Democrat that actually wants a progressive and real solution like single payer- this health insurance bullshit and support of big Pharma is not a very liberal position- look on the other side of the aisle.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 19:14:23 GMT -5
Democrats will see to it that there is a veto-proof majority sufficient to make substantial changes to the law that effectively gut it- this will happen for sure. Now, if the GOP is smart, they will demand full repeal, or hang them with ObamaCare. The war is over. They've lost. It is doubtful that Democrats will adopt the President's bunker mentality and commit political suicide with him. no, what is doubtful is that they will lead an insurrection against him. Depends on the extent of the 2014 bloodbath. I think if the numbers keep looking the way they do now, Reid and Obama will be pushed aside in favor of responsible action to salvage the party.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 19:23:32 GMT -5
no, what is doubtful is that they will lead an insurrection against him. Depends on the extent of the 2014 bloodbath. I think if the numbers keep looking the way they do now, Reid and Obama will be pushed aside in favor of responsible action to salvage the party. again, i doubt it. but hope springs eternal.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 19:41:07 GMT -5
I thought the GOP was quietly switching their message away from the repeal angle since it turns off the independents?
One thing is true- the war is over- and the GOP lost. Have to say they gave it all they could- just not enough. Not enough bullshit on the planet to win it- it actually takes facts, logic, and a real solution being proposed. Going to be hard to fight Obamacare with a GOP plan since Obamacare is pretty much a GOP plan. When are they going to realize they have no solutions other than their original preferred option of 'do nothing at all'?
Even if you were correct, which you are not- independents favor repeal. In fact, Independents favor the GOP generally by a not small margin. Romney won independents by 18% overall, and in all the key states except Iowa, Florida, and New Hampshire Romney won independents ( www.nationalreview.com/corner/332926/romney-won-independents-key-states-it-wasnt-enough-katrina-trinko ) and Ken Cuccinelli won them by 9% ( www.politico.com/story/2013/11/terry-mcauliffe-virginia-governor-2013-elections-99441.html ). Obama in particular is way, way out of touch with independents, independents tend to favor repealing ObamaCare (they certainly don't support failed ideas like socialized medicine), and the Democratic Party generally has sufficiently alienated independent voters. Obama has even taken a nose-dive in job approval among independents and Hispanics in California ( www.marinij.com/digitalfirstmedia/ci_24646547/california-obamas-disapproval-rating-jumps-up ) Now, I'm fine if you and the rest of the left want to keep your heads in the sand, but nothing has changed- the law has never enjoyed majority support- ever. And it never will. As it is implemented, there will be an out and out revolt and it will come out of the hide of Democrats. The law can't be saved by a PR push, it can't be saved by changing the subject, and it cannot be saved by wishful thinking. Teanami 2014 is coming- the numbers are shaping up for another wave election like 2010. That kind of political shellacking is not survivable in the wake of 2010. The party will act to save itself before that happens again.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2013 19:49:50 GMT -5
I thought the GOP was quietly switching their message away from the repeal angle since it turns off the independents?
One thing is true- the war is over- and the GOP lost. Have to say they gave it all they could- just not enough. Not enough bullshit on the planet to win it- it actually takes facts, logic, and a real solution being proposed. Going to be hard to fight Obamacare with a GOP plan since Obamacare is pretty much a GOP plan. When are they going to realize they have no solutions other than their original preferred option of 'do nothing at all'?
Even if you were correct, which you are not- independents favor repeal. In fact, Independents favor the GOP generally by a not small margin. Romney won independents by 18% overall, and in all the key states except Iowa, Florida, and New Hampshire Romney won independents ( www.nationalreview.com/corner/332926/romney-won-independents-key-states-it-wasnt-enough-katrina-trinko ) and Ken Cuccinelli won them by 9% ( www.politico.com/story/2013/11/terry-mcauliffe-virginia-governor-2013-elections-99441.html ). Obama in particular is way, way out of touch with independents, independents tend to favor repealing ObamaCare (they certainly don't support failed ideas like socialized medicine), and the Democratic Party generally has sufficiently alienated independent voters. Obama has even taken a nose-dive in job approval among independents and Hispanics in California ( www.marinij.com/digitalfirstmedia/ci_24646547/california-obamas-disapproval-rating-jumps-up ) Now, I'm fine if you and the rest of the left want to keep your heads in the sand, but nothing has changed- the law has never enjoyed majority support- ever. And it never will. As it is implemented, there will be an out and out revolt and it will come out of the hide of Democrats. The law can't be saved by a PR push, it can't be saved by changing the subject, and it cannot be saved by wishful thinking. Teanami 2014 is coming- the numbers are shaping up for another wave election like 2010. That kind of political shellacking is not survivable in the wake of 2010. The party will act to save itself before that happens again. It's not that we doubt you... ever... Paul, but your surety... You j... You seem to b... Let's just say I wish I could live in a world where I was as certain about everything political as you are.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 19:52:42 GMT -5
Depends on the extent of the 2014 bloodbath. I think if the numbers keep looking the way they do now, Reid and Obama will be pushed aside in favor of responsible action to salvage the party. again, i doubt it. but hope springs eternal. Hope is thinking that ObamaCare will exist in its present form in 2017 when Obama leaves office. Within six months, Democrats will be fighting over competing 'reform' bills that amount to repealing the laws biggest flaws- including the mandate. There will be no individual mandate, nor any tax penalty. By the time October rolls around and the small business mandate comes into view, if the Democrats haven't already killed it-- they're going to wish they had. And you're correct- it's way too early to predict a bloodbath for Democrats in 2014, especially when the GOP faces a bloodbath of its own in terms of the establishment. Mitch McConnell is already facing a primary challenge. Times are a changin'. It ain't 1996 anymore, and rubber stamping some flaccid "R" because it's an "R" isn't enough for a lot of people. If the infighting is enough to derail 2014, a lot of us on the conservative side of things have decided that it's enough for us to move the ball an inch in the right direction than through a Hail Mary pass to the RINOs and hope they won't score one for the other team.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 19:57:08 GMT -5
What I am certain of is that ObamaCare will collapse under its own weight, and it is primarily Democrats that have to deal with a law designed to collapse the American healthcare system and build universal care out of the ashes. The only problem with the strategy is, that Democrats destroyed their own credibility in the process, and they will be asking for the support of the same people they had to lie to in order to do this. My guess- and it's a damn good bet- is that people are going to not only say no, but HELL NO. This provides the Democrats with only one option- decide how to deal with the mess. They're not going to be able to ignore it. This mess demands action.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Dec 5, 2013 19:59:52 GMT -5
Oh the whining...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 5, 2013 20:11:01 GMT -5
What I am certain of is that ObamaCare will collapse under its own weight, and it is primarily Democrats that have to deal with a law designed to collapse the American healthcare system and build universal care out of the ashes. The only problem with the strategy is, that Democrats destroyed their own credibility in the process, and they will be asking for the support of the same people they had to lie to in order to do this. My guess- and it's a damn good bet- is that people are going to not only say no, but HELL NO. This provides the Democrats with only one option- decide how to deal with the mess. They're not going to be able to ignore it. This mess demands action. Hypothetically speaking, how shocked would you be if 2017 rolled around and the PPACA still exists in a form virtually indistinguishable from its current form?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 20:15:59 GMT -5
I thought the GOP was quietly switching their message away from the repeal angle since it turns off the independents?
One thing is true- the war is over- and the GOP lost. Have to say they gave it all they could- just not enough. Not enough bullshit on the planet to win it- it actually takes facts, logic, and a real solution being proposed. Going to be hard to fight Obamacare with a GOP plan since Obamacare is pretty much a GOP plan. When are they going to realize they have no solutions other than their original preferred option of 'do nothing at all'?
Says the person who generally refuses to back up what he says when pressed.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 20:30:48 GMT -5
again, i doubt it. but hope springs eternal. Hope is thinking that ObamaCare will exist in its present form in 2017 when Obama leaves office. separate argument. mine was about repeal. and, for the record, so was yours.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Dec 5, 2013 20:45:35 GMT -5
Hope is thinking that ObamaCare will exist in its present form in 2017 when Obama leaves office. separate argument. mine was about repeal. and, for the record, so was yours. And so the goalposts begin to move.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 20:46:04 GMT -5
The current, i.e., at this very moment) topic/header of this thread reads "ObamaCare Deathwatch - it's no longer if, but when & how..." Sounds like it's predicting/describing some kind of ambush, doesn't it? "Ominous portents" of "imminent hostilities"?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 5, 2013 21:27:08 GMT -5
Well, repeal is dead- that's for sure. I predict by the middle of next year you won't even hear anyone talk about it anymore- except a few nuts maybe. Of course they will still attack the law- just like they are still attacking SS and Medicare- and will forever.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 21:36:11 GMT -5
Hope is thinking that ObamaCare will exist in its present form in 2017 when Obama leaves office. separate argument. mine was about repeal. and, for the record, so was yours. I'm entirely open to the idea that the name ObamaCare will be with us for all eternity. It will not resemble, in any substantive way, the law's key (worst) features.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 21:41:44 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 21:56:28 GMT -5
The rollout is the intro to the failure of ObamaCare. The real failure is still unfolding.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 22:51:54 GMT -5
separate argument. mine was about repeal. and, for the record, so was yours. I'm entirely open to the idea that the name ObamaCare will be with us for all eternity. It will not resemble, in any substantive way, the law's key (worst) features. who are you, and what did you do with WCPS?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 6, 2013 2:20:49 GMT -5
So we are all real clear what are these key (worst) features that will go away?
1) Guarantee issue: Not going away 2) Community rating: Not going away 3) Mandated coverage: Not going away 4) Required MLR: Not going away
So what does that leave?
My prediction- health insurance companies are going away- at least they are not going to resemble, in any substantive way, what they are today. Might be a couple decades but that is where we are going- no other choice really.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 6, 2013 2:40:04 GMT -5
I thought the GOP was quietly switching their message away from the repeal angle since it turns off the independents?
One thing is true- the war is over- and the GOP lost. Have to say they gave it all they could- just not enough. Not enough bullshit on the planet to win it- it actually takes facts, logic, and a real solution being proposed. Going to be hard to fight Obamacare with a GOP plan since Obamacare is pretty much a GOP plan. When are they going to realize they have no solutions other than their original preferred option of 'do nothing at all'?
Says the person who generally refuses to back up what he says when pressed. *chuckle* There are quite a few around here who fall into that same category, investorbob. Let's keep the discussion on the subject rather than on the posters, eh? Thanks. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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