AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 3, 2013 15:55:05 GMT -5
Of course they are. no. they are not.Asymmetry of information shouldn't be mistaken for irrationality. you seriously think that markets are rational? wow. No, I'm totally messing with you on this one. The or slipped the post. Sorry about that. As you can tell from my comments in the pension thread- I know people do decidedly irrational things like believing in unicorns that fart rainbows, and a defined benefit pension plan that lets them retire on 80% of their highest three years earnings starting at the age of 50 after as few as 15 years of 'service'.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 3, 2013 16:01:12 GMT -5
you seriously think that markets are rational? wow. No, I'm totally messing with you on this one. The or slipped the post. Sorry about that. As you can tell from my comments in the pension thread- I know people do decidedly irrational things like believing in unicorns that fart rainbows, and a defined benefit pension plan that lets them retire on 80% of their highest three years earnings starting at the age of 50 after as few as 15 years of 'service'. good thing i didn't say how i REALLY felt, or i might have got deleted again.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 3, 2013 16:06:08 GMT -5
Now, speaking of rationality-- I hope nobody minds, but I'm going to once again get us focused on ObamaCare, the worst domestic policy disaster in a generation. Sorry, I'm on topic like that.
Anyway-- we could go on and on about the terrible metrics for ObamaCare, but the key ObamaCare metric may just be Democrat's blood pressure- and that will be very closely tied to the political metrics...
Democrats most vulnerable are those who voted for the law and are also directly complicit in Obama's lie- and there's some other exciting metrics here:
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 3, 2013 16:11:57 GMT -5
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Dec 3, 2013 23:07:34 GMT -5
Between 8am and 10pm yesterday 1.1 Million People visited the Healthcare website. When the insurance companies start advertising there be even more interest.
we need to stop bashing this law and start working to make it better. It will help us win elections.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 4, 2013 0:12:51 GMT -5
Between 8am and 10pm yesterday 1.1 Million People visited the Healthcare website. When the insurance companies start advertising there be even more interest. we need to stop bashing this law and start working to make it better. It will help us win elections. It is flat out absurd to me that you think 1.1 million "visitors" to a $1 billion dollar website is a meaningful metric. The reality is that enrollment is 85% short of the minimum required to make the law work. Counting what's left of today, and thanks to another magical modification of the law to extend the enrollment period by one week, individuals affected by the mandate have 19 days before the end of the last day people have to sign up for a plan that meets the requirements of the individual mandate- December 23. Otherwise, affected individuals must pay a penalty. That means approximately 250,000 people per day have to successfully enroll- soup to nuts, and verified, in a plan in the next 19 days. And of course, as the left likes to point out- ObamaCare isn't a website. There are far bigger problems in the meat of the law after the non-functioning website. The small business mandate has been delayed until just prior to the 2014 midterms at which point about a month out- millions more will discover higher premiums, canceled plans, and the true effects of this disaster will be felt by millions more Americans. Mark my words: No politician will EVER campaign on their support for this law- ever. This law will go away, the only question is how much political damage the Democrats will tolerate before they, not the GOP, lead the charge to get rid of it- or so substantially change it as to render it impotent effectively repealing it. In the end, ironically, the only thing that may remain of ObamaCare is the website.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 4, 2013 3:47:24 GMT -5
Between 8am and 10pm yesterday 1.1 Million People visited the Healthcare website. When the insurance companies start advertising there be even more interest. we need to stop bashing this law and start working to make it better. It will help us win elections. It is flat out absurd to me that you think 1.1 million "visitors" to a $1 billion dollar website is a meaningful metric. The reality is that enrollment is 85% short of the minimum required to make the law work. Counting what's left of today, and thanks to another magical modification of the law to extend the enrollment period by one week, individuals affected by the mandate have 19 days before the end of the last day people have to sign up for a plan that meets the requirements of the individual mandate- December 23. Otherwise, affected individuals must pay a penalty. That means approximately 250,000 people per day have to successfully enroll- soup to nuts, and verified, in a plan in the next 19 days. And of course, as the left likes to point out- ObamaCare isn't a website. There are far bigger problems in the meat of the law after the non-functioning website. The small business mandate has been delayed until just prior to the 2014 midterms at which point about a month out- millions more will discover higher premiums, canceled plans, and the true effects of this disaster will be felt by millions more Americans. Mark my words: No politician will EVER campaign on their support for this law- ever. This law will go away, the only question is how much political damage the Democrats will tolerate before they, not the GOP, lead the charge to get rid of it- or so substantially change it as to render it impotent effectively repealing it. In the end, ironically, the only thing that may remain of ObamaCare is the website. Paul is right- it was just me surfing for prices. My favorite RWNJ spiel- asshat A calls in saying they has a great deal in the private market but could not get the same deal in the exchange Because the exchange is full of government health plans Only way to make this shitty law work is to whack a mole all of the bullshit coming from people like..
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 4, 2013 3:52:19 GMT -5
Obamacare- law of the land- pissing off Social Darwinists since day one. Get used to it Not a fucking thing you can do about it
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 4, 2013 3:52:57 GMT -5
Enjoy the GOP healthcare plan!
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Dec 4, 2013 9:12:11 GMT -5
Most will shop around and buy near the end of the time frame which I think is march 30th? Four months is a long time. The ad blitz from the private sector(ins co's) will be starting shortly.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 9:20:50 GMT -5
Between 8am and 10pm yesterday 1.1 Million People visited the Healthcare website. When the insurance companies start advertising there be even more interest. we need to stop bashing this law and start working to make it better. It will help us win elections. And only 1.2% of those 1.1 million actually went into the online waiting room, which means less than 13,000 people actually signed up. Probably much less than 13,000 people. And while the front end of the website is mostly fixed, the back end that interacts with insurance companies, etc is faulty, even to the point it's being reported that people sign up and then the insurance company never sees the order. Even the insurance companies, which loved the Obamacare idea, seem to be having some "buyers remorse". www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/politics/obamacare-secrets/index.html
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 10:13:02 GMT -5
Between 8am and 10pm yesterday 1.1 Million People visited the Healthcare website. When the insurance companies start advertising there be even more interest. we need to stop bashing this law and start working to make it better. It will help us win elections.HUH? that makes absolutely zero sense please explain that thought
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Dec 4, 2013 10:43:49 GMT -5
Most folks wont actually sign up until late Feb or March.
Working to make the law better instead of constantly bashing it will help us with moderate voters which will help us win in 2016 if we can come up with a decent candidate.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Dec 4, 2013 11:32:00 GMT -5
The end of the time frame for the millions PPACA reform has unceremoniously dumped on the exchange is December 23rd. It should be the 15th, but as we all know President Obama just picks numbers out of the sky to suit his purposes.
On a related note, the end of the "time frame" you're referring to is extremely fluid. It has been established in principle that the President will unilaterally waive penalties for noncompliance with the law as long as it's sufficiently in his short-term political interest. The inducements to prop him up will only increase the longer people wait. There is no incentive to "wait until the last minute" unless you - *hehe* - take the President at his word. That's generously assuming that the sticks and carrots so far failing to prevent adverse selection from crippling the system don't get ruled unlawful for the majority of exchange shoppers; also that the as-yet-incomplete back-end IT that should connect the exchange to the insurers so they know who, exactly, they're insuring (the same architecture that, honest guv, will be funnelling taxpayer dollars to these greedy insurers and calling it a subsidy for the poor while forcing the poor to pay far more for their healthcare than before - unless they're the "poor enough" poor and can get Medicaid) also gets its act together, since currently roughly one in three of the lucky few able to navigate the website to the point of making a purchase have their information garbled on its way to the insurer. I won't mention the security concerns; I'll wait for that set of news stories to start telling themselves.
Then there's the sheer numbers of people that have to buy to meet the government's targets. The government expected those numbers to be backloaded, for sure; but there just isn't the demand pressure on the young, healthy uninsured to accept a Godawful deal in any time limit at all. The invincibles, I predict, will wait Obama out until the deal they're offered gets better.
Subsidies? I've already posted a link to the 2017 Project's analysis. Basically for young Americans it's between 3 and 11 times more expensive to get the crappiest available insurance, post-subsidy, than to take the chance that the tax penalty gets levied a year later. I just don't see enough people being stupid enough for long enough to make it work, and a PR blitz from a man most Americans find untrustworthy on the issue won't make them any more stupid.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Dec 4, 2013 11:43:19 GMT -5
The law forces the most expensive healthcare system in the world - by a huge margin - to get more expensive at every level, and for good measure shifts a larger burden of the cost onto the consumer. At the same time, it restricts the ability of that consumer to exercise choice and harness competitive market forces to bring down prices.
I'd suggest the way to make that law better is to undo every perverse incentive, price hike, market distortion, and illiberal constraint it introduces and focus instead on reforms that actually drive down cost and make healthcare more affordable; then pursue a twin-track of encouraging the purchase of affordable catastrophic insurance and encouraging the self-funding of preventive care. That can be done even alongside addressing the problem of pre-existing condition coverage.
Also, and this is unrelated really: a lot of advocates of PPACA suggest it puts an end to rescission - this being the practice misidentified as "dropping patients when they get sick." Rescission is actually the legal right of an insurer to terminate a contract where it becomes apparent that the insured party falsified material information in earning the contract. This right continues to exist in the PPACA landscape: it's still the case that if you lie - or, I suspect, if you tell the truth to the government-exchange middleman and it misrepresents you to the insurer because it couldn't get a portal built adequately in three years - they'll be able to rescind the contract. Medicare will do that to you, too, if you give them reason.
Insurers were never legally able to drop patients when they got sick: they remain able to drop patients who lie on their applications about material data. In practice, the PPACA landscape makes medical-underwriting data a lot less material (i.e. it is metamorphosing an insurance product into a non-insurance product, making it more expensive across the board as a result), but rescission is still a possibility.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2013 12:54:55 GMT -5
Between 8am and 10pm yesterday 1.1 Million People visited the Healthcare website. When the insurance companies start advertising there be even more interest. we need to stop bashing this law and start working to make it better. It will help us win elections. It is flat out absurd to me that you think 1.1 million "visitors" to a $1 billion dollar website is a meaningful metric. The reality is that enrollment is 85% short of the minimum required to make the law work. two months ago, it was 100% below the miniumum. 100/15 * 2 = 14 months.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 13:01:21 GMT -5
Most folks wont actually sign up until late Feb or March. Working to make the law better instead of constantly bashing it will help us with moderate voters which will help us win in 2016 if we can come up with a decent candidate. the law is a turd no matter how much polish you put on it, it will still be a turd sometimes the best fix is no fix it is to start over with something that actually makes sense and the only way Obamacare helps the GOP get elected, is the fact that it is the albatross around the dems necks
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2013 13:05:23 GMT -5
Most folks wont actually sign up until late Feb or March. Working to make the law better instead of constantly bashing it will help us with moderate voters which will help us win in 2016 if we can come up with a decent candidate. the law is a turd so is the PATRIOT Act. so is Medicare Part B. as soon as those are repealed, i will start to believe that the ACA will be.no matter how much polish you put on it, it will still be a turd sometimes the best fix is no fix it is to start over with something that actually makes sense and the only way Obamacare helps the GOP get elected, is the fact that it is the albatross around the dems necks if the can avoid ruining it by their insane government shutdown antics, it might help them win some seats.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Dec 4, 2013 13:18:49 GMT -5
I know we won't ever agree on this, but it remains my view that the Republicans in the House did not shut down the government when they offered a funding bill that did legally and in advance what Obama has been forced to do illegally and after the shambolic rollout of his signature initiative; Harry Reid did, when he refused to let his members vote on that bill because he knew they'd pass it and put the President in the awkward position of using his veto to shut the government down. And the President would have used that veto, if compelled by circumstances, rather than admit PPACA was the flawed eyesore it is.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 7:10:41 GMT -5
the law is a turd so is the PATRIOT Act. so is Medicare Part B. as soon as those are repealed, i will start to believe that the ACA will be.no matter how much polish you put on it, it will still be a turd sometimes the best fix is no fix it is to start over with something that actually makes sense and the only way Obamacare helps the GOP get elected, is the fact that it is the albatross around the dems necks if the can avoid ruining it by their insane government shutdown antics, it might help them win some seats. The simplest explanation as to why ObamaCare will be repealed is that it directly effects Every. Single. American. Yes, so does the Patriot Act, but not in a way that people feel. This hits people RIGHT NOW, in a meaningful way- in a financial way.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 9:29:15 GMT -5
It is flat out absurd to me that you think 1.1 million "visitors" to a $1 billion dollar website is a meaningful metric. The reality is that enrollment is 85% short of the minimum required to make the law work. two months ago, it was 100% below the miniumum. 100/15 * 2 = 14 months. I see- so it's "infinity better".
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 9:34:51 GMT -5
To add to post #1105 above- here's a specific example of what I mean when I say people are revolting against this law because it effects them in immediate, tangible ways. The NSA's effects rely on people being both well informed and concerned about the implications. They don't feel it in their every day lives, so it is possible to tune out the NSA (and Benghazi, and the IRS targeting- and the whole weaponiziation of the bureaucracy) because these issues don't immediately, tangibly impact people's lives in a way they are FORCED to notice. ObamaCare's effects are being felt right now by the millions losing their insurance, or being forced into the exchanges to buy expensive insurance they don't need and/or don't want. The lowest of low information voters is being forced to deal with the ObamaCare disaster: thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/192132-young-invincibles-spurn-enrollment
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Dec 5, 2013 10:09:56 GMT -5
This didn't take long.
thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/192109-cms-back-end-issues-persist-will-be-resolved
There's enough blood in the water that journalists are going beyond breezy White House assurances that healthcare.gov is working fine now, and, y'know, doing journalism. Part of that involves addressing the 834 problem; among all the facts and figures being spun and leaked and thrown to the media wolves, nobody in the administration will say how many of the healthcare.gov enrollees are having their data butchered before their insurer gets it. Insurers are mutinously informing the press that this is happening, even after the fixes that the government say stopped it happening; come January 1, a new slew of bad-news stories will emerge as those 834 glitches acquire human faces.
And then, of course, there's the data that the government is sharing about the website's performance. Stop me if you've heard this one before, but their claims are outstripping reports of the reality:
abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/updated-healthcare-mixed-reviews-21076298
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Dec 5, 2013 10:42:05 GMT -5
I doubt very much that the non insured and "the poor" will be having a regular Dr. rather than the ER. Drs.. are already limiting the number of patients they are willing to see, and of those accepting new patients, the Medicaid patients among us will not have Drs. that will accept them. End result? Back to the ER and drop the insurance.
My PC Dr. is an internist and has been in practice for about 5 years. She is now affiliated with a major local hospital, and has not been accepting new patients for 3 years. I believe that the name ACA gives the impression that CARE will actually be the result, as does the name ObamaCARE. There isn't going to be much care. The bill should have been named Affordable Insurance Act. Even then, there will be about as much insurance involved as there is care involved.
IMHO, this is just another progressive idea, and if we're lucky it will collapse under its own weight....and the sooner the better.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 13:02:49 GMT -5
if the can avoid ruining it by their insane government shutdown antics, it might help them win some seats. The simplest explanation as to why ObamaCare will be repealed is that it directly effects Every. Single. American. Yes, so does the Patriot Act, but not in a way that people feel. This hits people RIGHT NOW, in a meaningful way- in a financial way. yeah. my friend saved $800 a month on the new exchanges. is that what you meant?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 5, 2013 13:03:31 GMT -5
two months ago, it was 100% below the miniumum. 100/15 * 2 = 14 months. I see- so it's "infinity better". the term is "infinitely better", and yes.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Dec 5, 2013 13:14:30 GMT -5
In Massachusetts, if I recall correctly, ER visits are up since PatrickCare was implemented in 2007 although uncompensated care costs are down. That correlates with higher caseloads and longer wait times for doctors.
Massachusetts, incidentally, has the highest individual healthcare insurance premiums in the land. Overall, healthcare was 15% more expensive in MA than the national average in 2012.
Hilariously, the established Commonwealth Connector in Massachusetts had to be re-established to comply with PPACA. That's right: a functional state exchange had to be scrapped and restarted because of how the law was written (in a preview of arguments pending before the courts in several jurisdictions, this was necessary because of how the act construes eligibility for premium subsidies - and the tax penalties that remain an important component of funding the law, despite the fact that these can only be levied on people without insurance and the whole point of PPACA was for it to expand coverage).
An interesting sidebar about Massachusetts' experience is that, since at least 2008, the legislature has been wrestling with the problem of cost containment. A 2009 commission recommended shifting from a fee-for-service pay structure to a global payment structure; for some reason, this very sensible cost-containment proposal found no place in the reams of paper constituting PPACA.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 13:22:35 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2013 13:24:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 14:23:16 GMT -5
Guys, Obama has now decided that his signature contribution is going to be raising the minimum wage. So we can knock off the "I-told-you-so" on Obamacare. That is so yesterday. It's time to just let it stew in its own crapulence and pretend like the issue is behind us.
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