billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 17, 2011 23:09:05 GMT -5
So much for a Reagan moment.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 17, 2011 23:14:06 GMT -5
Hey, all the Democratic Senators are holed up in a hotel in Rockford Illinois. Does Wisconsin get stuck paying the bar tab for these people? After all Cheeseheads do like their beverages.....
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pappyjohn99
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Post by pappyjohn99 on Feb 17, 2011 23:22:02 GMT -5
So much for a Reagan moment. Yes, that's why 60% of the people in Wisconsin are behind the Gov. And we are all hoping the State police find the missing legislators.
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pappyjohn99
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Post by pappyjohn99 on Feb 17, 2011 23:25:42 GMT -5
Divine Right of Governors?
No. Will of the people.
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pappyjohn99
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Post by pappyjohn99 on Feb 17, 2011 23:33:34 GMT -5
Yes, your taxes pay their wages. However, they have these things called contracts which they expect to be respected. What Walker is trying to do is essentially say, "Oh, yah, that contract you signed when you took this job? I'm throwing it out and cutting your pay and your retirement, etc, because I've decided that I just don't want to pay you that much even if I can afford it.. I want to pay for something else instead." Now, those people who don't have unions would take it up the ass if their boss said this. Or they'd try to find a new job. But if there aren't any other jobs, they'd take it up the ass. What these people are saying is, "Wait, no, you promised us certain things and we expect you to live up to those promises. If the state is actually hurting, we'll be happy to work with you to come to an equitable arrangement that let's the state keep running, but we're not going to let you do it just because you feel like it." And, actually, you can walk off your job if you disagree with your coworkers - it just won't do you any good because you're not in a union Contracts are broken every day. In this case it would be a good thing, IMHO. Some steps toward governmental fiscal sanity. The teachers are only willing to make concessions now because they have their backs against the wall. You are correct though, about walking off the job. We in the private sector always have that option. Of course there will not be a job for us to return to.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 17, 2011 23:39:52 GMT -5
I remember that some states have a no strike written into the contract. Teachers and emergency safety personel even if they are union. cannot remember them though. I also remember some years one state out west had this issue with state legislators and a judge said if they did not show up for regular sessions they could be removed and others appointed till the next election. He used the term if I remember correctly (obvious deriliction of sworn duty to the state) Do not know if any of that could apply here.
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pappyjohn99
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Post by pappyjohn99 on Feb 17, 2011 23:47:41 GMT -5
Imagine if the republicans were allowed to appoint the replacements. lol
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 18, 2011 5:28:38 GMT -5
Re: Senate Democrats boycott vote
Public workers vs Governors is a battle that is just begun in several states.
Governors Brown and Cuomo are about to propose cuts for their state workers as well ..
Governor Walker is also getting opposition from Obama who supports the state workers in Wi..
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 18, 2011 8:34:42 GMT -5
I have a spouse that will be affected, which means I will also. I have friends that will be affected. I have family other than my spouse that will be affected. I have seen unions hurt the worker more than help the worker. I see them keep people on the job that should be let go. The hospital that DW works for is being pushed towards unionization for the nurses (NNU I believe). The biggest supporters of unionization are the lower paid CNA's and newer RN's. What they fail to realize is that if they accept the union and the union demands a lower patient ratio per nurse, the CNA's are all gone, the secretaries are gone and the charge nurses would be forced to take patients as well as coordinate schedules, Dr. calls, lab schedules, patient movement, discharges, etc.... The RN's would also need to pick up all the duties of the laid off CNA's (taking vitals, bed baths, fetching pillows and blankets, etc...) as well.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 18, 2011 8:47:41 GMT -5
IMO, propopsing cuts is the way to go.Benefits must be brought in line with the private sector. If a governor lacks the negotiaton skills to do it,he should not just take away bargaining rights,IMO. That is a whole 'nother' argument. That is not a budget bill.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Feb 18, 2011 8:55:22 GMT -5
It cracks me up that the Dems are the new "Party of NO".
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Feb 18, 2011 9:01:29 GMT -5
It cracks me up that the Dems are the new "Party of NO". The WI dems are the party of "no show".
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 18, 2011 9:04:05 GMT -5
Outside Teamsters are joining in this protest which would require the state workers to contribute @3 - 4 % towards their health care costs. States are broke but yet the Unions say not only NO but Hell NO and the dems bugged out to Ohio rather than cast a vote.. It it being advertised as the Unions vs Governor Walker and accusing him or wanting to be a Union Buster...actually it is big spending liberals vs conservative republicans who are trying to balance their state budgets.....IMHO www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20032992-503544.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 18, 2011 9:05:41 GMT -5
I agree this is not the correct process to achieve the required end of balancing the budget even if reducing benefits is the correct thing to do. One the other side of the coin, Obama or any other liberal complaining about the process is simply hypocritical since this is the way they pushed their crap through congress the last couple of years also. We are likely to see many more protest as reality sinks in and we finally start to realize that fixing this financial problem will require everyone to reduce their standard of living back to match our revenue. Many in the private sector have already experienced these cutbacks and it's time the government and tax payer supported workers are forced to get in line as well. We all allowed these tax and spend, global outsourcing, government dependency programs and policies to go unchecked for decades and now we can all deal with the consequences. If you couldn't see this day coming you must of had your party blinders on.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 18, 2011 9:47:50 GMT -5
Some, including President Obama, perceive the move as part of a greater Republican effort across the nation to vilify public workers and unions. "Some of what I've heard coming out of Wisconsin, where you're just making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain generally seems like more of an assault on unions," Mr. Obama said in an interview Wednesday with local television station WTMJ-TV. "And I think it's very important for us to understand that public employees, they're our neighbors, they're our friends... And I think it's important not to vilify them or to suggest that somehow all these budget problems are due to public employees." Walker said on Fox that he's not trying to vilify public workers. "This is not to say we do not have good and decent people working in state government," he said. His plan, he said, "is bold and big when it comes to politics, but I think ultimately pretty modest when you compare to where people are in the private sector today." In a statement today, U.S. House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) praised Walker, and like-minded Govs. John Kasich of Ohio and Chris Christie of New Jersey, for "daring to speak the truth about the dire fiscal challenges Americans face at all levels of government." Their solutions, he said, "will liberate our economy and help put our citizens on a path to prosperity." Boehner said he was "disappointed" in Mr. Obama for his response to the conflict in Wisconsin www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-2....ain;contentBody
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 18, 2011 10:07:50 GMT -5
When the real estate market was booming and tax revenue pouring into cities/towns, and the financial markets sky rocketing and revenue from capital gains flooding the federal and state treasuries(like NY State and NYC), the public sector got greedy. No one cared or paid attention because everything was peachy-keen. Now govt mismanagement has been exposed. It is like the Warren Buffett quote: "Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Feb 18, 2011 11:28:36 GMT -5
Those guys have to go back someday and the vote will still be there.
Isn't this the same state that one of the 'elected officials' said Arizona wasn't affected by the illegal immigration? Seems she said that Arizona was a couple of states away from Texas so didn't have a problem.
Are all the liberals in that state suffering from light deprivation? Spring is just around the corner.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 18, 2011 11:32:13 GMT -5
Why not bargain in good faith? When I was in a union we gave up a lot of wages for benefits. Why is he afraid to sit at the table and negotiate? Now that I work for myself,I still have to negotiate for what I get paid. Because what he really wants is to break the unions. Bargaining in good faith would not accomplish that. The Reps declared war on unions some 30 years ago and that is one (of several) reasons why the middle class is declining.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 11:35:57 GMT -5
Yes, your taxes pay their wages. However, they have these things called contracts which they expect to be respected. What Walker is trying to do is essentially say, "Oh, yah, that contract you signed when you took this job? I'm throwing it out and cutting your pay and your retirement, etc, because I've decided that I just don't want to pay you that much even if I can afford it.. I want to pay for something else instead." Now, those people who don't have unions would take it up the ass if their boss said this. Or they'd try to find a new job. But if there aren't any other jobs, they'd take it up the ass. What these people are saying is, "Wait, no, you promised us certain things and we expect you to live up to those promises. If the state is actually hurting, we'll be happy to work with you to come to an equitable arrangement that let's the state keep running, but we're not going to let you do it just because you feel like it." And, actually, you can walk off your job if you disagree with your coworkers - it just won't do you any good because you're not in a union Contracts are broken every day. In this case it would be a good thing, IMHO. Some steps toward governmental fiscal sanity. The teachers are only willing to make concessions now because they have their backs against the wall. You are correct though, about walking off the job. We in the private sector always have that option. Of course there will not be a job for us to return to. Can't imagine how many Wis. citizens would be at the capital protesting on the other side of this. If only they didn't have to go to work in order to get that paycheck that they have no right to bargain for.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 18, 2011 11:40:01 GMT -5
Can't imagine how many Wis. citizens would be at the capital protesting on the other side of this. If only they didn't have to go to work in order to get that paycheck that they have no right to bargain for.
Actually what Wisc citizens have no bargaining rights is the taxes paid which fund govt. One bargains for their pay when they take their job initially. You can always leave your job if you dislike your compensation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 11:41:44 GMT -5
I understand that. So can state workers.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 18, 2011 11:44:05 GMT -5
I understand that. So can state workers.
Yes, theoretically. Though I do not see govt workers leaving the employ of govt in droves. I see them whining and moaning about being pressed to contribute something to their health plans and retirement funds. It is almost comical.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 18, 2011 11:50:22 GMT -5
I understand that. So can state workers. Yes, theoretically. Though I do not see govt workers leaving the employ of govt in droves. I see them whining and moaning about being pressed to contribute something to their health plans and retirement funds. It is almost comical. Actually they are doing more than "whining and moaning". They are taking action. Those in the private sector:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 11:50:47 GMT -5
I understand that. So can state workers. Yes, theoretically. Though I do not see govt workers leaving the employ of govt in droves. I see them whining and moaning about being pressed to contribute something to their health plans and retirement funds. It is almost comical. It would be, except it's tearing friend and family apart. Funny from a distance maybe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 12:03:50 GMT -5
Just saw on Fox that several other states are organizing the same protests. Man-- Dems are having a blast. I mean-- this is what they LIVE for, stuff like this. Get those protest buses rolling, shut down the schools, the teachers with those great nearly FREE benefits are MAD. Wah, Wah, Wah. Public safety people are exempt from this bill, but they are out protesting, too. Whiney brats. Maybe he should throw them in the bill, also. GREAT support for your state, people. And Obama-- once again, coming down against a state trying to help itself, just like AZ. Maybe he can cook up a lawsuit against the Gov and sue Wisconsin, just like he is suing MY state. In the real world, shouldn't a POTUS be glad to see states take the initiative to pull themselves out of the financial hole?? But, then again, less dependence on the Feds is not seen as a good thing by this administration.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 18, 2011 12:19:40 GMT -5
"They were willing to come to the table to discuss their pensions, but Walker is trying to push through some tax cuts etc and the only way he can pay for them (they didn't have a budget shortfall before he enacted the tax cuts) is by chopping the pensions. This is Walker's tea party wet dream agenda clashing with hard working Americans who are being threatened. "
Sure, NOW they are willing to come to the table...where were they at the end of 2009 when the school portions of property taxes were being raised 10% (and another 10% this year) to pay for the teachers' wage and benefit increases? What was there response to the taxpayer's on fixed incomes or unemployment when they were going to get hit with another chunk of taxes? A great big middle finger to the taxpayers - and telling them to just shut up and pay your taxes, it's for "the children."
Well, now these teachers and unions want our support now that THEY are on the defensive??? Well I have my response for them right here - and its the same one they gave us the last two years!!!
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 18, 2011 12:42:25 GMT -5
*Ahem* They were willing to come to the table to discuss their pensions, but Walker is trying to push through some tax cuts etc and the only way he can pay for them (they didn't have a budget shortfall before he enacted the tax cuts) is by chopping the pensions. This is Walker's tea party wet dream agenda clashing with hard working Americans who are being threatened. Their pensions they were willing to negotiate, they are not willing to negotiate on one of the basic tenets of unions - collective bargaining. The only thing the bill that Walker proposed does is get rid of collective bargaining so he can take a butcher knife to state workers on everything from basic pay to pensions. Before you go insulting the unions, just remember that most of your rights as working people in the US are due to Unions. On the NPR station I was listening to , different program, guests, supposedly the Governor and legislature put through 113 million {give or take a bit if my figures are wrong} of tax cuts for businesses...now is trying to get it back from the state employees..his argument , like the Federal House Speakers, if layoffs , so be It, and the Governor said the cuts , business, were in the long term a better deal for the state to encourage job growth. Possible has a point. . Possible, for businesses, but to not wonder where the cuts would be made up, or all ready had the Unions in mind....we'll do the cuts , then go there to get the money back..mmmmm If he wins this thing..in the future , workers .., will be at the mercy, with no say, beyond quitting, to the State to dictate, not negotiate, compensation. You all like that scenario? You can say , well they can always quit ...but reality, say have 12 years in , doing a good job, now have to give up your benefits and quit. These deals were negotiated in good faith by previous legislatures and Governors, now new one comes in, just scrap the old..how can one trust the ones who negotiate with that always looming over ones head. I feel he has a problem now..partially his and the legislatures making of because of the business tax cuts, , but not willing to take the heat for it..the business tax cuts..ask for help from the unions...freeze increases...medical, pensions...and if unions not willing..then I guess pink slips..do with the minimum...but not even talk about National Guard as a negotiating lever, that is BS.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 12:46:17 GMT -5
Last year in AZ we had a sales tax increase. It was a big deal. We were told without it we would lose teachers, cops, fire-- so we said yes. A few months later there was another tax on the table-- same story-- teachers, cops, fire-- we said no. From what I hear Wisconsin is all taxed out, and raising taxes is not a good idea. What do these people want?? To just stay the same while the entire country hurts and cuts things up? I saw a HS kid on Fox last night that is one of the protesters. He was saying "they" need to take more money from the "rich" and leave their schools alone, blahblahblah. That is the general tone of the protest. I LOVE the Nazi/Hitler signs and other fun ones. No one is trying to take these people's jobs or hurt the schools-- that is what the Gov is trying to AVOID. Another fun thing is flipping news channels. Only on FOX do I hear this stuff. The others are all against the Gov, praising Obama, etc. Nothing like one sided, biased news. Hey-- no union dues would be a pay increase to offset the cost of them paying more for their SWEET benefits. And maybe, just MAYBE, when they do horrible things they will get FIRED instead of sitting on salary in a time out room for years and years with full pay.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 18, 2011 13:05:13 GMT -5
PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS (PART 1 OF 2): ARE THEY TO BLAME FOR ...
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 18, 2011 13:17:35 GMT -5
Even though I disagree with the process happening in WI it is very evident that the public sector employees just don't get what's going on and their refusal to negotiate reductions in the past is at least partially responsible for the crisis many of these states are in. The average private sector family in Michigan has seen a wage/ benefit reduction of over 20% in recent years while many in the public sector are still whining about their minimal 3-4% increases or that their COL increase was so small or that someone is trying to reduce the cost of their benefit package. These people are completely out of touch with reality. Government officials should not even be allowed to negotiate these contracts with public workers since it is not even their own money they are spending. It seems like a citizens commission of tax payers might be more objective in negotiations.
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