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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 13:45:43 GMT -5
I think a few posters might disagree with you......... You think we have people who are abusers amongst YM crowd? Yes
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 10, 2013 13:50:01 GMT -5
People who need to hear this message are probably not reading YM We tend to have this stereotype in our heads of these horrible trailer trash type families that are in and out of the foster/welfare system. But that's not always the reality. I was at my girls weekend this past weekend. There were 12 of us and as the weekend went on we started talking about our pasts. I was shocked at how many of the women there had experienced domestic violence- either as a child or as an adult. These were all middle to upper middle class ladies. All college graduates. All homeowners and what would be considered productive members of society. I'd say better than half of them were victims of domestic violence at some point in their lives. Many of them I knew growing up and they were not families you would have pegged or stereotyped as having problems like this. These were people my parents sat behind at Mass every Sunday.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Oct 10, 2013 13:57:25 GMT -5
anne82, I think it will be hard for my DIL to go back to work.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2013 13:58:12 GMT -5
True. But let the probability of abuse in a random family be x. If abuse isn't occurring, the probability of observing it is zero. If abuse is occurring, the probability of observing it somehow is a percentage p·100%. Simple Bayesian logic then indicates that the probability of violence occurring given no violence is observed is And unless p = 0, which would imply that violence is completely undetectable in 100% of domestic violence cases, the resulting probability is always going to be strictly less than x. In short, not observing domestic violence is a good thing. Sorry but I can't leave you with your rose coloured glasses. You are part of a higher income crowd. You have 2 things working against you: people that are better skilled at hiding their dirty laundry and your lack of experience recognizing the signs of domestic abuse. So not observing it is not good in the sense of being secure it isn't happening. It also isn't good in the sense that if it is happening you are not in a position to help the victim. I'm saying that the probability that violence exists conditioned on the observation of no violence is strictly less than the baseline probability of violence. It's a mathematical fact, based on a single realistic assumption, which I've listed. And it's a good thing. Think of it this way: Suppose you move into a new neighbourhood where you know absolutely nothing about anybody. As you walk around, which would you rather see: a bunch of bruised and bloodied kids that you know are abused, or a bunch of healthy looking kids that may or may not be abused? As for my "not [being] in a position to help the victim", perhaps so. But if being in such a position means that one has to witness or experience domestic violence first-hand, I'm nevertheless grateful I'm not in it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 13:59:46 GMT -5
Maybe if domestic violence wasn't so hidden, it would be easier to stop?
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 10, 2013 14:00:34 GMT -5
Our town has a crazy case going on right now. The family has 4 kids (combination of adopted and biological). One of the adopted kids they claimed their chiropractor prescribed a special diet to. It was discovered when the mom brought him to the ER because she thought he was vomiting blood- turned out he had snuck a red popsicle and that's what made his vomit red.
The hospital admitted him and called the cops. He was 8 years old and weighed 35 lbs. As information came out the public found out that he was forced to sleep in a plastic sled in the basement because they claimed he would have bed wetting accidents at night. They would sleep outside the door to where he was to make sure he didn't sneak food. His siblings were told to never feed him and they would wash him in the yard with a garden hose.
He was permanently removed from the home - his two biological siblings who were also adopted by the family were left in the home as well as the couple's biological child. The town was pretty outraged when they found that out. Many felt that all 4 kids should have been removed. From what the neighbors who were interviewed say they had no clue that anything was going on inside that house.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 10, 2013 14:04:45 GMT -5
You think we have people who are abusers amongst YM crowd? there are a few posters who realized some issues with their relationships after reading some posts about abusive relationships here.
ETA: I also suspect a few posters are abusive to their spouses/partners, but I doubt anything posted here will change their behavior because they are always right. yeah, I remember some threads. I guess too naive to think that there are no abusers among us at all
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2013 14:05:34 GMT -5
OMG that's so sad, Sheila. May his "parents" rot in hell. I'm still haunted by the book "A Child Called It" and I read it in 8th grade! To this day I can quote parts from memory. I'd wither up and die if I worked in the professions some of you do. It's 20x worse now that I have a child of my own. Kudos to you because someone has to watch out for these kids.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2013 14:08:58 GMT -5
Maybe if domestic violence wasn't so hidden, it would be easier to stop? My analysis suggests nothing except that as a violence becomes more detectable ( p tends to 1), the probability of no violence conditioned on not observing violence tends to 1. Or in simpler terms, if we could spot abused individuals with 100% accuracy, we would know for certain that individuals that didn't appear abused weren't in fact abused. It makes no assumptions about p except that p > 0. And I agree with you, it would be nice if violence was more detectable rather than less detectable. But the nature of how detectable violence is doesn't change the fact that it's better not to detect any.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 14:11:19 GMT -5
Maybe if domestic violence wasn't so hidden, it would be easier to stop? My analysis suggests nothing except that as a violence becomes more detectable ( p tends to 1), the probability of no violence conditioned on not observing violence tends to 1. Or in simpler terms, if we could spot abused individuals with 100% accuracy, we would know for certain that individuals that didn't appear abused weren't in fact abused. It makes no assumptions about p except that p > 0. And I agree with you, it would be nice if violence was more detectable rather than less detectable. But the nature of how detectable violence is doesn't change the fact that it's better not to detect any.It's better to not detect violence that's hidden? Um, maybe not for the victim, but probably better for those who don't think it's a problem.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2013 14:24:06 GMT -5
You're conflating type II error (failure to detect) with conditional probability.
Try the following: Suppose you go in for a cancer screening. Would you rather that the cancer test turn up positive or that it turn up negative?
Either way, the test doesn't predicate whether you have cancer or not. You either have it or you don't. The test doesn't change that. Moreover, a negative result doesn't change the national cancer rate. What a negative result does provide is greater confidence that you don't have cancer.
Apply the same logic to your friends, family, and neighbours: Would you rather that a domestic violence test (i.e. visible symptoms) turn up positive or that it turn up negative?
Obviously you want a negative. Just because the test is considerably less efficient than a cancer screen doesn't mean that the principle isn't the same.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 14:27:44 GMT -5
Yes, of course I don't want people to be smacked around by people who are supposed to love him. What I, and a bunch of other posters are telling you is just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Abusers don't smack people in public, generally.
This is not a problem that can be fixed by applying math and you're kidding yourself if you think nobody you know is ever involved in domestic violence incidents.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:31:12 GMT -5
It just means you can stick your head in the sand and pretend all is well. The reason you don't see it most of the time is because it's not just the perpetrators hiding it, but the victims as well.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 14:32:17 GMT -5
It just means you can stick your head in the sand and pretend all is well. The reason you don't see it most of the time is because it's not just the perpetrators hiding it, but the victims as well. Those bruises on her arm are from walking into the door. Right, honey?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:35:01 GMT -5
And not all abuse leaves you bloodied and bruised.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 10, 2013 14:36:13 GMT -5
I think a few posters might disagree with you......... You think we have people who are abusers amongst YM crowd? I think we have both abusers and people who are being abused.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 14:36:32 GMT -5
And not all abuse leaves you bloodied and bruised. You mean it's abuse to not allow you an access to money and undermine your relationships with your friends and family?
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Oct 10, 2013 14:38:25 GMT -5
And not all abuse leaves you bloodied and bruised. You beat me to it, I guess all domestic "violence" cases are physical in Virgil's math problem.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 10, 2013 14:40:58 GMT -5
OMG that's so sad, Sheila. May his "parents" rot in hell. I'm still haunted by the book "A Child Called It" and I read it in 8th grade! To this day I can quote parts from memory. I'd wither up and die if I worked in the professions some of you do. It's 20x worse now that I have a child of my own. Kudos to you because someone has to watch out for these kids. That was exactly what I thought about when I read Sheila's post! And now I wonder if this "selective active abuse" (the other children are IMO passively abused by having to live in a family like that) is common and serves as one way to hide what is going on? I think an abuser would have an easier time explaining away bruises, breaks, conussions etc in one child if there are others without signs in the same family. That would let the abuser claim that the kid with the injuries is the clumsy one.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 10, 2013 14:41:48 GMT -5
It just means you can stick your head in the sand and pretend all is well. The reason you don't see it most of the time is because it's not just the perpetrators hiding it, but the victims as well. Those bruises on her arm are from walking into the door. Right, honey? I dunno, just because you don't disclose what's going on in your house doesn't mean that you are sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. And, DV isn't just limited to physical abuse. It's not like I walk up to people and say "Hello, my name is Gira. I was an ass of a spouse for the first 10 years of my marriage and emotionally abused my husband". My husband never walked around saying "Hi. I'm Mr. Gira. My wife can be a really big *sshole. How about them Dodgers?" when he talks to other parents on the playground.. It wasn't like DH and I were blissfully ignorant of the situation... How many of us reveal the worst parts of ourselves to others...anyone-no matter if it's casual contact or more of an intimate relationship?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Oct 10, 2013 14:43:48 GMT -5
I was at my girls weekend this past weekend. There were 12 of us and as the weekend went on we started talking about our pasts. I was shocked at how many of the women there had experienced domestic violence- either as a child or as an adult. These were all middle to upper middle class ladies. All college graduates. All homeowners and what would be considered productive members of society. I'd say better than half of them were victims of domestic violence at some point in their lives. This doesn't surprise me at all. It's almost as if something happens to women around the age of 40 and we're released from the spell that keeps us quiet about these things. Around that age, we suddenly feel no need to pretend that we don't know what interpersonal violence looks and sounds like.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2013 14:45:02 GMT -5
Yes, of course I don't want people to be smacked around by people who are supposed to love him. What I, and a bunch of other posters are telling you is just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Abusers don't smack people in public, generally. This is not a problem that can be fixed by applying math and you're kidding yourself if you think nobody you know is ever involved in domestic violence incidents. At no point have I said "it's not there". At no point have I stated that the problem can be "fixed by applying math" or that "nobody (I) know is ever involved in domestic violence incidents". I've stated that I've been blessed to never have experienced or witnessed domestic violence in my lifetime. If you contest this statement, if you believe it is better that I should have witnessed or experienced some domestic violence by this point, then by all means let me know. But this is the only statement I've made and have been defending in this thread. The math is elementary probability and its conclusions make no assumptions about the nature of the violence whatsoever.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 14:45:56 GMT -5
Those bruises on her arm are from walking into the door. Right, honey? I dunno, just because you don't disclose what's going on in your house doesn't mean that you are sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. And, DV isn't just limited to physical abuse. It's not like I walk up to people and say "Hello, my name is Gira. I was an ass of a spouse for the first 10 years of my marriage and emotionally abused my husband". My husband never walked around saying "Hi. I'm Mr. Gira. My wife can be a really big *sshole. How about them Dodgers?" when he talks to other parents on the playground.. It wasn't like DH and I were blissfully ignorant of the situation... How many of us reveal the worst parts of ourselves to others...anyone-no matter if it's casual contact or more of an intimate relationship? I think you missed the point of my exchange with Virgil. The victims often know the score. But it doesn't mean their neighbor does, and just because the neighbor doesn't know doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Virgil doesn't know anyone involved in an abusive relationship, therefore they aren't.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2013 14:46:59 GMT -5
Yes, of course I don't want people to be smacked around by people who are supposed to love him. What I, and a bunch of other posters are telling you is just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Abusers don't smack people in public, generally. This is not a problem that can be fixed by applying math and you're kidding yourself if you think nobody you know is ever involved in domestic violence incidents. At no point have I said "it's not there". At no point have I stated that the problem can be "fixed by applying math" or that "nobody know is ever involved in domestic violence incidents".
I've stated that I've been blessed to never have experienced or witnessed domestic violence in my lifetime. If you contest this statement, if you believe it is better that I should have witnessed or experienced some domestic violence by this point, then by all means let me know. But this is the only statement I've made and have been defending in this thread.
I think you're kind of naïve..............
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Oct 10, 2013 14:53:16 GMT -5
OMG that's so sad, Sheila. May his "parents" rot in hell. I'm still haunted by the book "A Child Called It" and I read it in 8th grade! To this day I can quote parts from memory. I'd wither up and die if I worked in the professions some of you do. It's 20x worse now that I have a child of my own. Kudos to you because someone has to watch out for these kids. That was exactly what I thought about when I read Sheila's post! And now I wonder if this "selective active abuse" (the other children are IMO passively abused by having to live in a family like that) is common and serves as one way to hide what is going on? I think an abuser would have an easier time explaining away bruises, breaks, conussions etc in one child if there are others without signs in the same family. That would let the abuser claim that the kid with the injuries is the clumsy one. That book sure does stick with you doesn't it? I also went right to it when I read Sheila's post.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 10, 2013 14:54:10 GMT -5
Considering it's damn easy to make sure any bruises and cuts will be covered by tshirts and pants - at least those that are obviously bruised will more likely get help. It might take a while to establish a pattern - but the abused kid that shows up to the hospital often with broken bones is far more likely to be helped then the kid who constantly has welts and bruises under his shirt. Same for adults too, but they're harder to help even when the show up repeatedly to the hospital.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2013 14:55:43 GMT -5
Just reduce all domestic violence (heck, ALL violence) to a mathematical formula. Then, you can pretend you don't see it or know about it. That way, there is no responsiblity falling on you. X=3 monkeys.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2013 14:57:04 GMT -5
I dunno, just because you don't disclose what's going on in your house doesn't mean that you are sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. And, DV isn't just limited to physical abuse. It's not like I walk up to people and say "Hello, my name is Gira. I was an ass of a spouse for the first 10 years of my marriage and emotionally abused my husband". My husband never walked around saying "Hi. I'm Mr. Gira. My wife can be a really big *sshole. How about them Dodgers?" when he talks to other parents on the playground.. It wasn't like DH and I were blissfully ignorant of the situation... How many of us reveal the worst parts of ourselves to others...anyone-no matter if it's casual contact or more of an intimate relationship? I think you missed the point of my exchange with Virgil. The victims often know the score. But it doesn't mean their neighbor does, and just because the neighbor doesn't know doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Virgil doesn't know anyone involved in an abusive relationship, therefore they aren't. Virgil THINKS he doesn't know anyone involved in an abusive relationship.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2013 14:58:33 GMT -5
At no point have I said "it's not there". At no point have I stated that the problem can be "fixed by applying math" or that "nobody know is ever involved in domestic violence incidents".
I've stated that I've been blessed to never have experienced or witnessed domestic violence in my lifetime. If you contest this statement, if you believe it is better that I should have witnessed or experienced some domestic violence by this point, then by all means let me know. But this is the only statement I've made and have been defending in this thread.
I think you're kind of naïve.............. And I think you're more interested in what you want to hear--so that you can shove me and my analysis into a nice predefined box that doesn't require any rational consideration of my arguments--than you are in what I've actually said. But far be it from me to express my gratitude for a violence-free life, hence I'll thank you for taking on the tough job of representing abused children (or child witnesses of abuse) in a custody fight and take my leave.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:59:28 GMT -5
Considering it's damn easy to make sure any bruises and cuts will be covered by tshirts and pants - at least those that are obviously bruised will more likely get help. It might take a while to establish a pattern - but the abused kid that shows up to the hospital often with broken bones is far more likely to be helped then the kid who constantly has welts and bruises under his shirt. Same for adults too, but they're harder to help even when the show up repeatedly to the hospital. Or what about the kid constantly ridiculed and made to sleep in a box in the basement or go without food, or the wife called a stupid effing b*** every day or is subjected to spousal rape or not allowed to leave the house? Nothing noticeable there. Might even all show up smiling at Virgil's house on Sunday afternoon with a 6 pack to watch the game.
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