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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 11:20:49 GMT -5
Of course it was poor judgement. But does that mean it ends a career, or creates a criminal background, or fines a school district 100K? Why does everything have to be blown up into such gigantic proportions? When did minor injuries turn into such life altering events? And more importantly, what kind of world do our kids grow up in when the legal system is introduced to everything? How do they learn how to solve their own problems when outside parties intrude on everything? What is the lesson from stories like this? Obviously I'm the minority on this. We can agree to disagree. What do they learn? They learn that no one, even an authority figure is allowed to assault them. They will learn that assaulting someone is serious and not playing. I would hope adults would be aware of that fact. They learn that they can make it so, if someone breaks the law and harms them, that the police are called and charges filed. If this was my child, he would learn that when someone harms him, mom will always have his back.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 7, 2013 12:12:50 GMT -5
Of course it was poor judgement. But does that mean it ends a career, or creates a criminal background, or fines a school district 100K? Why does everything have to be blown up into such gigantic proportions? When did minor injuries turn into such life altering events? And more importantly, what kind of world do our kids grow up in when the legal system is introduced to everything? How do they learn how to solve their own problems when outside parties intrude on everything? What is the lesson from stories like this? Obviously I'm the minority on this. We can agree to disagree. I don't know where you are getting the school district fine of $100K. That is not at all what's happening here. So far the information was forwarded to the police and the courts. They are the ones charging the teacher with assault- NOT the family. Are you maybe jumping to conclusions? At no point did I say that they were suing the teacher (although I did mention that the mom is a legal secretary) and at no point did I say anything about $100K fines to the school district. The SCHOOL DISTRICT is the one that called the cops and reported it. NOT THE FAMILY.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Oct 7, 2013 12:14:02 GMT -5
And I can't believe that no one is allowed to make a stupid mistake in your world. So far, EVERYONE is in agreement that the teacher should be punished for his actions even though SOME of us believe he didn't hit the kid with the express intent to cause him harm. That is not a mistake, it is a decision to assault someone. Anyone who decides to assault my child is going to pay, and pay heavily. You do NOT touch my child without consent. Has it been proven that the teacher did intend on striking the kid? I can think of several senarios where it would be an accident.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 7, 2013 12:17:50 GMT -5
The school's priority is the student. The minor child was (in the school's eyes) assaulted by a teacher. Seriously enough to warrant (in the school's eyes) a trip to the emergency room.
Yes that kid learned his lesson- I'm assuming he learned to never let a teacher walk up behind him if there is anything in that teacher's hands. He learned that if a teacher hit's him with a backpack that he (the student) will be removed from class, forced to help the lunch lady, and forced to scramble to find another acceptable science class so he can graduate from high school on time. Yup- that kid learned his lesson.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 12:20:30 GMT -5
Or, maybe, he learned that adults and school systems mess up and he ended up in a shitty situation through no fault of his own.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 7, 2013 12:23:03 GMT -5
Former- the situation is that the teacher picked up Kyle's backpack from the floor next to Kyle's desk and swung it at the back of Kyle's head with the sole intention of getting Kyle's attention. Given that the police intend to charge him with assault (and have taken 2 weeks to investigate and come to that decision) I'm thinking they didn't by any of the "accident" scenarios.
Yes this was a stupid, I'm hoping one time thing that the teacher did. I doubt he ever intended for things to go this far but they did and now he has to face the consequences of his actions. .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 12:24:35 GMT -5
Or, maybe, he learned that adults and school systems mess up and he ended up in a shitty situation through no fault of his own. And perhaps that will motive him to become the superintendent of schools to ensure that all children have a safe, healthy school environment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 12:24:39 GMT -5
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 7, 2013 12:31:08 GMT -5
FormerlySK- This is a direct quote from you from the thread about making the kids clean up after they trashed that football players house:
I think you need to have kids face the consequences of their decisions early. Excusing a bad decision and protecting a child from consequences only means the child will make a larger bad decision later on, with the added pressure for parents that the ramifications are even worse. Cheat on a test in middle school? Nope, don't want to punish that because it'll affect the kid's entrance into HS gifted program. So you don't do anything and the kid cheats on a HS test, which affects college. Stealing a candy bar as a 6yo has much lighter consequences than stealing a prom dress as a teenage. If you excuse the early stuff, it'll always come back worse.
So why don't you feel the same way about punishing the teacher or the teacher having to face the consequences for his actions?
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 7, 2013 12:50:03 GMT -5
Of course it was poor judgement. But does that mean it ends a career, or creates a criminal background, or fines a school district 100K? Why does everything have to be blown up into such gigantic proportions? When did minor injuries turn into such life altering events? And more importantly, what kind of world do our kids grow up in when the legal system is introduced to everything? How do they learn how to solve their own problems when outside parties intrude on everything? What is the lesson from stories like this? Obviously I'm the minority on this. We can agree to disagree. I agree, in theory. The "problem" is you are using common sense. As singlemominmd (correctly) pointed out, due to school disciplinary policies common sense does not exist anymore. Therefore, it is strict "policy" enforcement without any leeway or other considerations taken into account. Sad, but that's the way it is anymore. Due to lawsuits and legal ramifications the schools cannot take into consideration intent, character of the people involved, reprecussions, etc.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 7, 2013 12:55:48 GMT -5
I think what is most disturbing about this thread to me isn't what actually happened as much as the reactions to it.
I can think of at least three times I have picked something up to playfully tap DH or one of the kids to get their attention and managed to miss and whack them instead. There was never any prematated anything, let alone an attempt to assualt and yet they did get whacked. Maybe this guy really intended to hit the kid and just over did it but I don't feel like I know that from what was written here. It doesn't mean that I, or anyone here, thinks it is okay to start hitting people. I just think that it is possibible it was an accident and the punishement for that accident shouldn't include never being able to work again, which is what charging him with assualt would effectvely do.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 7, 2013 13:13:07 GMT -5
Of course it was poor judgement. But does that mean it ends a career, or creates a criminal background, or fines a school district 100K? Why does everything have to be blown up into such gigantic proportions? When did minor injuries turn into such life altering events? And more importantly, what kind of world do our kids grow up in when the legal system is introduced to everything? How do they learn how to solve their own problems when outside parties intrude on everything? What is the lesson from stories like this? Obviously I'm the minority on this. We can agree to disagree. I don't know where you are getting the school district fine of $100K. That is not at all what's happening here. So far the information was forwarded to the police and the courts. They are the ones charging the teacher with assault- NOT the family. Are you maybe jumping to conclusions? At no point did I say that they were suing the teacher (although I did mention that the mom is a legal secretary) and at no point did I say anything about $100K fines to the school district. The SCHOOL DISTRICT is the one that called the cops and reported it. NOT THE FAMILY. Sorry...I'm speaking hypothetically at this point. One poster said she'd sue to get a free ride to college for her kid, so that's where my 100K thing came from. Others keep mentioning the teacher should be fired, etc so I'm responding to those arguments, not necessarily about this specific case.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 7, 2013 13:17:20 GMT -5
FormerlySK- This is a direct quote from you from the thread about making the kids clean up after they trashed that football players house: I think you need to have kids face the consequences of their decisions early. Excusing a bad decision and protecting a child from consequences only means the child will make a larger bad decision later on, with the added pressure for parents that the ramifications are even worse. Cheat on a test in middle school? Nope, don't want to punish that because it'll affect the kid's entrance into HS gifted program. So you don't do anything and the kid cheats on a HS test, which affects college. Stealing a candy bar as a 6yo has much lighter consequences than stealing a prom dress as a teenage. If you excuse the early stuff, it'll always come back worse.So why don't you feel the same way about punishing the teacher or the teacher having to face the consequences for his actions? Have I every said there should be no consequence? The teacher hurt a student - the hurt being the kid had a headache. My point is going to the extreme of criminal charges and firings and lawsuits is irrational in this case. Was the kid's nose broken? Did he get a cut on his face and require stitches? Did anything really bad happen? It seems an apology would be appropriate. Maybe the teacher has to get extra training so this doesn't happen again. But to "crucify him!" talk is ridiculous IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 13:26:17 GMT -5
FormerlySK- This is a direct quote from you from the thread about making the kids clean up after they trashed that football players house: I think you need to have kids face the consequences of their decisions early. Excusing a bad decision and protecting a child from consequences only means the child will make a larger bad decision later on, with the added pressure for parents that the ramifications are even worse. Cheat on a test in middle school? Nope, don't want to punish that because it'll affect the kid's entrance into HS gifted program. So you don't do anything and the kid cheats on a HS test, which affects college. Stealing a candy bar as a 6yo has much lighter consequences than stealing a prom dress as a teenage. If you excuse the early stuff, it'll always come back worse.So why don't you feel the same way about punishing the teacher or the teacher having to face the consequences for his actions? Have I every said there should be no consequence? The teacher hurt a student - the hurt being the kid had a headache. My point is going to the extreme of criminal charges and firings and lawsuits is irrational in this case. Was the kid's nose broken? Did he get a cut on his face and require stitches? Did anything really bad happen? It seems an apology would be appropriate. Maybe the teacher has to get extra training so this doesn't happen again. But to "crucify him!" talk is ridiculous IMO. This is not about the result of the assault but the fact that the teacher thought it ok to ASSAULT a student. If someone attacked me, and I defended myself and then called the cops, no cop or DA would ever say, oh well you were not seriously hurt so let us just tell the attacker to say "sorry". No, the action is what is being punished, not the result. If you were at work and someone hit you, no matter if you had permanent damage or not, would you not call the cops? And what kind of adult need "extra" training to understand not assault anyone? Especially not to assault a child in his care? If I was another parent in this and they did not fire him, I'd be livid because who is he going to assault next?
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 7, 2013 13:41:49 GMT -5
In just about every instance a teacher hitting a student is wrong. However, I still can't seem to classify this incident as "assault". Assault means premedition with intent to injure (IMHO). Although a bad choice, this teacher was really just trying to wake up the student and get his attention. That's my take anyway...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 13:54:47 GMT -5
In just about every instance a teacher hitting a student is wrong. However, I still can't seem to classify this incident as "assault". Assault means premedition with intent to injure (IMHO). Although a bad choice, this teacher was really just trying to wake up the student and get his attention. That's my take anyway... Well, the cops think it is, so I am going to believe they know more about those kind of laws then either of us.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 7, 2013 14:01:09 GMT -5
In just about every instance a teacher hitting a student is wrong. However, I still can't seem to classify this incident as "assault". Assault means premedition with intent to injure (IMHO). Although a bad choice, this teacher was really just trying to wake up the student and get his attention. That's my take anyway... Well, the cops think it is, so I am going to believe they know more about those kind of laws then either of us. Possibly, or the cops also know the ramifications from the school district and possible lawsuits as well.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 7, 2013 14:04:28 GMT -5
I think the cops' desire to be as thorough as possible is why it's taken 2 weeks so far for them to do anything. They seem to be treading very carefully and gathering facts so they do not levy consequences on the teacher without investigating it first.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 14:09:22 GMT -5
Well, the cops think it is, so I am going to believe they know more about those kind of laws then either of us. Possibly, or the cops also know the ramifications from the school district and possible lawsuits as well. My state law says “the intentional creation of a reasonable apprehension of harm”- meaning there does not have to be harm just the possibility of it. But battery in my state does not need there to be long term harm. If I punch someone, even if there is no harm, I can still be convinced of battery.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 7, 2013 14:10:11 GMT -5
What the DA does or doesn't do is up to them, I'd let the justice system take it's course.
I'd certainly be up at the school wanting to know why my kid is in the lunchroom and the teacher is still teaching. I'd want a better alternative and would go up the chain as needed.
Suing I wouldn't do, at least not yet. Sure it makes me feel good to "send a message" but if I LOSE my kid is the one stuck at the school and we can pretend all we want people are impartial but escalating things that far can generate a lot of bad blood. I don't think based on the evidence provided it'd be worth it to me to escalate the situation that far.
I think by being in the office and trying to force a better outcome shows my kid I have her back just fine. I also want my kid to be able to judge how to react/handle certain situations and that while things may be an option it might not be the best on in this particular case or at this particular time.
I think suing would be overkill. That, IMO, would be a last ditch move when everything else has failed to get the situation resolved.
DH would probably disagree with me.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 7, 2013 14:40:34 GMT -5
What the DA does or doesn't do is up to them, I'd let the justice system take it's course. I'd certainly be up at the school wanting to know why my kid is in the lunchroom and the teacher is still teaching. I'd want a better alternative and would go up the chain as needed. Something comparable to this happened to Sis3 once. She was about 9-10 yo and a teacher pulled her hair when she did not move fast enough after gym class. Teacher pulled out some hair, not much but enough that you could see it on Sis3 scalp. My mom, whose motto was "if you got punished at school you probably did something to deserve it", took one look at Sis's head and stormed off to school. The school's response was in line with many of the answers here "well she didn't intend to... lapse in judgment, teach is pg and hormonal, etc". Mom's answer: if she is not out of this school before tomorrow morning I'll go to the cops and newspapers and all ofyou can deal with the fallout then. Teacher was gone next day. This was in the late 60s and if the teacher's behavior wasn't acceptable then what makes it ok now? If anyone should be in the cafeteria cleaning up it should be that teacher, NOT the student!!! And how much do you want to bet that the school would have a replacement teacher available asap if the other parents got into this on behalf of their kids as well?
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 7, 2013 18:25:30 GMT -5
When I posted that if i had been my DD that was assaulted by the teacher, that the district woud be paying for her college, I was making the point, albeit indirectly, that the parents of the actual assaulted student were reacting very moderately to the situation. As a parent, I would have had a very different, more aggressive response. I don't feel that the district served the student well at all, and isolating him in the cafeteria and making him miss class and help the lunch lady is B.S. That would have been part of my displeasure, resulting in some kind of lawsuit and probable settlement.
I make no apologies for my viewpoint and the actions I would plan to take. They would be lawful, which was more than what the teacher did.
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spartan7886
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Post by spartan7886 on Oct 7, 2013 21:40:02 GMT -5
Have I every said there should be no consequence? The teacher hurt a student - the hurt being the kid had a headache. My point is going to the extreme of criminal charges and firings and lawsuits is irrational in this case. Was the kid's nose broken? Did he get a cut on his face and require stitches? Did anything really bad happen? It seems an apology would be appropriate. Maybe the teacher has to get extra training so this doesn't happen again. But to "crucify him!" talk is ridiculous IMO. Two points. One, can mmhmm or another medical professional help me? I would think hitting someone in the back of the head would be far riskier than hitting someone in the front of the head, like the examples of harm you're giving. Two, this situation strikes me as somewhat similar to drunk driving. We still charge people even when they don't hurt someone when they intentionally do something that could reasonably be assumed to hurt someone, whether they meant to hurt them or not.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 7, 2013 22:24:47 GMT -5
Yep. Hitting someone in the back of the head with a large, heavy object (such as a book bag) can do more damage, spartan. If you're hit from the front, you can see the blow coming and your reactions will help mitigate the blow. It's automatic. Hit in the back of the head, there is no protective response. A bookbag isn't going to cause any very serious damage in all likelihood, but it's certainly not something that should be done! If the boy was preparing to sit up and had lifted his head, hitting him in the back of the head with a bookbag would cause his head to bounce forward onto the desk, so he's hit from both ways - a very real risk for concussion.
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