HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Sept 16, 2013 10:40:17 GMT -5
It's also very easy for mom to take the hem out of short shorts, put some seam binding on the edges and make a small hem. The shorts are longer. Or get some fabric from a yardage store and make them Bermuda length, just above the knee. Unfortunately not that many parents have a sewing machine. Uh...... No. Not easy. Sorry. LOL!! Seriously, <1 minute for a kid to shorten them.... vs what, an hour to fix them or add length to them? This is not the way you want to wage that battle IMO. No teenager these days will wear anything "home made".
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 16, 2013 12:43:43 GMT -5
I have to hand it to him. At least he's willing to "lead by example," instead of just talking.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 13:19:02 GMT -5
My issue with this whole discussion goes back to the concept of modesty. Modesty is really just a way that we say "men cannot control their reactions, so women must change their behavior in order to not tempt the poor menz."
I plan to teach my daughter(s and/or sons, if any other kids happen along) that clothes and hair and makeup are tools. You can deploy them usefully in different situations. You can use them to fit into the dominant culture. You can use them to stand out. You can use them to attract or deflect attention. You can use them to express a truth you feel about yourself. You may make different choices in different situations. Each of these options come with benefits, consequences and risks.
But my daughter, as a person, has agency all her own. She gets to make those choices, and then learn from them. If she wants to wear short shorts, fine. I'm not going to tell her she can't just because some perv might look at her wrong. If she was wearing a burka some perv could look at her wrong. That's the nature of pervs. Some nasty old biddy who wants to uphold the dominant cultural norms may shame her. These are things that happen as a result of the short-shorts. And I hope she tells all of them to fuck off and stop telling her what to do with her body. And I will stand behind her 100%.
Alternately, she could get fired for not fitting into a dress code. And I would tell her that while it's still her right to wear whatever she wants, it's her employer's right to set boundaries for what she can and can't wear. If she violates that, then she should get fired. If she doesn't want to get fired, she should wear whatever fits into that setting. Because clothes are tools. And if you want to earn a living in this country in X, Y, or Z, you need to dress accordingly.
She wants to dye her hair green? K. She wants to pierce her nose/brow/whatever? K. But we get to have a conversation first about how this affects peoples' perceptions and may limit her choices in the short and long-term. But ultimately, the decision is hers.
She gets to decide how to portray herself because she is the one who IS herself.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 16, 2013 13:20:40 GMT -5
I agree, up to a point. If I'm supporting them, then it's my rules.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 13:34:51 GMT -5
But zib, where do your rules come from? Why do you have those rules? Who gave them to you? Why do you uphold them?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 16, 2013 14:48:58 GMT -5
But zib, where do your rules come from? Why do you have those rules? Who gave them to you? Why do you uphold them? Well for starters I have never heard of a school not having a dress code. Most public school I know of it is pretty lax but they do still have one. and I know we were talking about girls but from a memo I got last week it seems the boys are having a harder time dressing according to the dress code than the girls.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 16, 2013 14:56:21 GMT -5
My rules come from the way I was brought up and how my family and xtended family views themselves. When I was a dependent, except for certain times of rebelling, I followed my parents rules, at least in front of them! Was I perfect? No, and neither were they. My mom smoked and drank in high school,totally against her parents wishes but never in front of them. Discretion and respect were expected. I expected the same from my kids and, for the most part, got it. Did they always follow my rules? I highly doubt it but in front of me they did. When they became old enough to have their own sense of class and behavior and style, then it was up to them. But by that time, my DD wasn't going to dress like a streetwalker and DS wasn't going to date anyone that did because that told a lot about how she viewed herself and he was smart enough not to go there. DD didn't like it but realized that appearances do count for a lot. If she wanted to be liked by the moms of the guys she dated, dressing like a whore wasn't going to cut it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 16, 2013 15:00:40 GMT -5
I'm a mean conservative old school mom, at least according to the last dress code thread on here. If I'm buying your clothes I get the final say in what you wear. I don't have to purchase everything she wants in the name of "expressing herself". What my reasons are for veto-ing it are going to depend on whatever it is I'm objecting to and the circumstances surrounding it, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I can't stop her from buying whatever she pleases when she has her own money, she's free to do whatever she wants once she can afford to do it herself and/or doesn't need me to sign something saying it's ok. A good one is when my brother approached my dad at 16 wanting a tattoo of a flaming wolf head on his chest. My dad said he could get one when he was 18 and would be the only person to blame for the decision and coul pay to have it removed. He never did get it and even admits now at 23 that would have been dumb, but sounded awesome to a 16 year old. He's glad he didn't "express himself", which is an argument he used against my dad. Dad responded it's not expressing yourself if you have to ask my permission for it.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:01:35 GMT -5
But zib, where do your rules come from? Why do you have those rules? Who gave them to you? Why do you uphold them? Well for starters I have never heard of a school not having a dress code. Most public school I know of it is pretty lax but they do still have one. and I know we were talking about girls but from a memo I got last week it seems the boys are having a harder time dressing according to the dress code than the girls. Right. And I think it's ok for a school to have a dress code, in some, or even the majority of, cases. Depends on the dress code. What I do want, though, is for people to examine why they think these rules are so important to enfore with their own children. Things like "it's my house, so it's my rules." Sure - I absolutely agree if that's what you want to do. But I also think it's important to examine what rules you set and why. Are you just perpetuating the environment you grew up in? Is that still relevant today? Do these rules unfairly penalize one gender over the other? Are you sending mixed messages to your children? Are you discussing the mixed messages your kids are getting from you vs. society at large? When do your kids get the right to make their own decisions? When they can economically afford to do so? When they attain majority?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:04:06 GMT -5
I'm a mean conservative old school mom, at least according to the last dress code thread on here. If I'm buying your clothes I get the final say in what you wear. I don't have to purchase everything she wants in the name of "expressing herself". What my reasons are for veto-ing it are going to depend on whatever it is I'm objecting to and the circumstances surrounding it, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I can't stop her from buying whatever she pleases when she has her own money, she's free to do whatever she wants once she can afford to do it herself and/or doesn't need me to sign something saying it's ok. Right - but WHY? What are you afraid she's going to wear? What will happen if she does? What feelings will that evoke in you that you don't like? What are you afraid of? Tell your kid what to wear or don't, I don't care. But just examine what you're telling your kid when you do.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:06:24 GMT -5
My rules come from the way I was brought up and how my family and xtended family views themselves. When I was a dependent, except for certain times of rebelling, I followed my parents rules, at least in front of them! Was I perfect? No, and neither were they. My mom smoked and drank in high school,totally against her parents wishes but never in front of them. Discretion and respect were expected. I expected the same from my kids and, for the most part, got it. Did they always follow my rules? I highly doubt it but in front of me they did. When they became old enough to have their own sense of class and behavior and style, then it was up to them. But by that time, my DD wasn't going to dress like a streetwalker and DS wasn't going to date anyone that did because that told a lot about how she viewed herself and he was smart enough not to go there. DD didn't like it but realized that appearances do count for a lot. If she wanted to be liked by the moms of the guys she dated, dressing like a whore wasn't going to cut it. And you created a son who wouldn't date anyone who "dressed like a streetwalker" because YOU THINK that tells a lot about how she views herself. Or, she happens to want some attention and got dolled up for a night out, and 6-7 days out of the week she's a preschool teacher who volunteers to feed the homeless and goes to church and is a virgin. You don't know. You assume.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 16, 2013 15:08:53 GMT -5
What are you afraid she's going to wear? What will happen if she does? What feelings will that evoke in you that you don't like? What are you afraid of?
Well considering right now she's only three the worst that happens is she looks like she got dressed in the dark in the back of a clown car. Doesn't bother me none, she'll destory her clothes in five minutes anyhow.
It's going to depend entirely on what it is she wants to do/wear and what the situation around it is. I can't tell you why I won't let her wear something if it hasn't happened yet.
Your hair color example? I don't care hair will eventually grow out or can be re-dyed. A tattoo/piercing? Ff she still has to ask my permission the answer is no. I'm not going to be responsible for a flaming wolf head. A couple years to think about it isn't the end of the world, if she wants it that bad she can get it when my approval is no longer needed before she can walk in the door of the parlor.
And for the record I have nothing against most tattoos and piercings. I just think those are things you shouldn't need to seek my approval for and if you have to you're not old enough to get it, at least in the tattoo department.
Piercings it's really depend on what body parts we're talking about. I'm not signing off on a tounge piercing, she can have one when she's old enough to foot the dental bill.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 16, 2013 15:15:47 GMT -5
Bsb-I love your posts on this and think they are spot on.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 16, 2013 15:24:39 GMT -5
My rules come from the way I was brought up and how my family and xtended family views themselves. When I was a dependent, except for certain times of rebelling, I followed my parents rules, at least in front of them! Was I perfect? No, and neither were they. My mom smoked and drank in high school,totally against her parents wishes but never in front of them. Discretion and respect were expected. I expected the same from my kids and, for the most part, got it. Did they always follow my rules? I highly doubt it but in front of me they did. When they became old enough to have their own sense of class and behavior and style, then it was up to them. But by that time, my DD wasn't going to dress like a streetwalker and DS wasn't going to date anyone that did because that told a lot about how she viewed herself and he was smart enough not to go there. DD didn't like it but realized that appearances do count for a lot. If she wanted to be liked by the moms of the guys she dated, dressing like a whore wasn't going to cut it. I'm pretty sure you've posted quite a few not favorable things about your upringing, but you cling to it in these discussions as if it is the only right way to raise kids. I also get the impression that the appearance of respect is more important than actual love and respect. You would rather that the kids play their part in front of you, and not know what is really happening. We joke that we want our kids to lie to us when they are out doing what we were doing, but it is a joke.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 16, 2013 15:29:02 GMT -5
I raised them on my own with no help from anyone. I make no apologies nor do I need to. To anyone for anything. I would hope both my kids respect themselves enough to stay away from those who don't.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 16, 2013 15:36:38 GMT -5
I also get the impression that the appearance of respect is more important than actual love and respect
I don't think though but I do think kids are young, stupid and impressionable. I have no problems with expressing yourself or being true to yourself but that takes time to figure out. As an adult who's BTDT it's my job to guide my kid and if that means being and using my veto power so be it. I'm not going to agree to every single thing she wants to do in the name of "expressing herself". I want her to be her own person but not fall into the trap of being a lemming either. Like I said I have nothing against tattoos but I would never sign off on one for my 16 year old. I know what I was like at 16 and the designs I fantasized about are NOT what I'd want on my body currently at 30. Waiting till I had to save the money myself and be able to sign the dotted line myself gave me time to think. That's just on example, but I'm sure we'll butt heads over everything else too, just like I did with my parents. As the adult/parent it's my job, IMO, to be the cooling prevailing head in the situation. DH not so much he's insisting she wear a nun's habit till she's 30 and not the sexy halloween kind.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:39:02 GMT -5
My rules come from the way I was brought up and how my family and xtended family views themselves. When I was a dependent, except for certain times of rebelling, I followed my parents rules, at least in front of them! Was I perfect? No, and neither were they. My mom smoked and drank in high school,totally against her parents wishes but never in front of them. Discretion and respect were expected. I expected the same from my kids and, for the most part, got it. Did they always follow my rules? I highly doubt it but in front of me they did. When they became old enough to have their own sense of class and behavior and style, then it was up to them. But by that time, my DD wasn't going to dress like a streetwalker and DS wasn't going to date anyone that did because that told a lot about how she viewed herself and he was smart enough not to go there. DD didn't like it but realized that appearances do count for a lot. If she wanted to be liked by the moms of the guys she dated, dressing like a whore wasn't going to cut it. I'm pretty sure you've posted quite a few not favorable things about your upringing, but you cling to it in these discussions as if it is the only right way to raise kids. I also get the impression that the appearance of respect is more important than actual love and respect. You would rather that the kids play their part in front of you, and not know what is really happening. We joke that we want our kids to lie to us when they are out doing what we were doing, but it is a joke. Enh, I fully expect my kid(s) to lie to me while they are out doing what I was doing. Which is why I plan to give them all the anti-drugs, drinking, smoking talks I was given. Otherwise I'm afraid they will turn to religion to rebel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 15:40:18 GMT -5
My rules come from the way I was brought up and how my family and xtended family views themselves. When I was a dependent, except for certain times of rebelling, I followed my parents rules, at least in front of them! Was I perfect? No, and neither were they. My mom smoked and drank in high school,totally against her parents wishes but never in front of them. Discretion and respect were expected. I expected the same from my kids and, for the most part, got it. Did they always follow my rules? I highly doubt it but in front of me they did. When they became old enough to have their own sense of class and behavior and style, then it was up to them. But by that time, my DD wasn't going to dress like a streetwalker and DS wasn't going to date anyone that did because that told a lot about how she viewed herself and he was smart enough not to go there. DD didn't like it but realized that appearances do count for a lot. If she wanted to be liked by the moms of the guys she dated, dressing like a whore wasn't going to cut it. And you created a son who wouldn't date anyone who "dressed like a streetwalker" because YOU THINK that tells a lot about how she views herself. Or, she happens to want some attention and got dolled up for a night out, and 6-7 days out of the week she's a preschool teacher who volunteers to feed the homeless and goes to church and is a virgin. You don't know. You assume. if i see a woman dressed like a streetwalker, do you think i care whether or not she dresses like that ALL the time? i know all i need to know...... she MAY be an angel the rest of the week....but on occasion, you can judge a book by it's cover
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 16, 2013 15:40:49 GMT -5
I hope my kid is a stick in the mud like I was. DH said he's never met someone as straight laced as I am. Good thing DH was the "wild child" so I have someone to draw references from.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:41:07 GMT -5
I also get the impression that the appearance of respect is more important than actual love and respect
I don't think though but I do think kids are young, stupid and impressionable. I have no problems with expressing yourself or being true to yourself but that takes time to figure out. As an adult who's BTDT it's my job to guide my kid and if that means being and using my veto power so be it. I'm not going to agree to every single thing she wants to do in the name of "expressing herself". I want her to be her own person but not fall into the trap of being a lemming either. Like I said I have nothing against tattoos but I would never sign off on one for my 16 year old. I know what I was like at 16 and the designs I fantasized about are NOT what I'd want on my body currently at 30. Waiting till I had to save the money myself and be able to sign the dotted line myself gave me time to think. That's just on example, but I'm sure we'll butt heads over everything else too, just like I did with my parents. As the adult/parent it's my job, IMO, to be the cooling prevailing head in the situation. DH not so much he's insisting she wear a nun's habit till she's 30 and not the sexy halloween kind. Tattoos are permanent. Or they are now - who knows in 15 years? Also at this point in many states you can't get a tattoo at 16 even with a parental signature. I'm not against that.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 16, 2013 15:42:10 GMT -5
Well for starters I have never heard of a school not having a dress code. Most public school I know of it is pretty lax but they do still have one. and I know we were talking about girls but from a memo I got last week it seems the boys are having a harder time dressing according to the dress code than the girls. Right. And I think it's ok for a school to have a dress code, in some, or even the majority of, cases. Depends on the dress code. What I do want, though, is for people to examine why they think these rules are so important to enfore with their own children. Things like "it's my house, so it's my rules." Sure - I absolutely agree if that's what you want to do. But I also think it's important to examine what rules you set and why. Are you just perpetuating the environment you grew up in? Is that still relevant today? Do these rules unfairly penalize one gender over the other? Are you sending mixed messages to your children? Are you discussing the mixed messages your kids are getting from you vs. society at large? When do your kids get the right to make their own decisions? When they can economically afford to do so? When they attain majority? First of all I have these conversations daily with my son but I can't remember ever having them with my daughter. If my 10 year old son had his way he would walk around naked to the point of frost bite and sun poisening. he just doesn't understand why he should have to wear clothing period. He doesn't car what clothes I buy but he basically doesn't want to wear any of them unless it has bakugon on it or something. My only response has been because we have 350 million people in this country and we all have to get along so he doesn't get to just do whatever he wants. He can within reason but thee are some things where society has said no this is the bare minimum. I should add that my DD's school is really close to the beach, in case my screen name didn't already tell you that. The average accountant or enginner you see in their office will be dressed in board shorts, a muscle T and flip flops. I know of one archetict who regularly changes out of his wetsuit in his office during office hours. And anyone who can't concentrate on the meeting while looking at their toes is just out of luck. So their schools are not trying to get anyone to dress in concervative clothing in any way shape or form. This is basically hippy dippy heaven. So the conversation are not you have to wear this so people take you seriously. It is more of a you have to wear clothing, and if I can tell whether you wiped your ass properly or not, then your not.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:42:50 GMT -5
And you created a son who wouldn't date anyone who "dressed like a streetwalker" because YOU THINK that tells a lot about how she views herself. Or, she happens to want some attention and got dolled up for a night out, and 6-7 days out of the week she's a preschool teacher who volunteers to feed the homeless and goes to church and is a virgin. You don't know. You assume. if i see a woman dressed like a streetwalker, do you think i care whether or not she dresses like that ALL the time? i know all i need to know...... she MAY be an angel the rest of the week....but on occasion, you can judge a book by it's cover Seriously? Just... seriously? You know ALL you need to know? All you could POSSIBLY learn from this person?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 16, 2013 15:43:49 GMT -5
Tattoos and piercings are getting into different territory than shorts imo.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:44:58 GMT -5
I hope my kid is a stick in the mud like I was. DH said he's never met someone as straight laced as I am. Good thing DH was the "wild child" so I have someone to draw references from. Gwen strike you as an introvert?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 16, 2013 15:45:27 GMT -5
She can have as many crack jack tattoos as she wants. I was pretty sure you can't get them till you're 18 period nowadays but I couldn't remember. I'm not entirely sure on piercings either, I think anything besides ears in NE you have to be 18. Not sure about IA. Good example of a fashion trend I wouldn't let her wear, those bandeux things. Those are freaking sports bras under a fancy name! Only Superman gets away with wearing his underwear outside his clothes. I don't care how many girls are wearing them or how good her abs look, she's not wearing underwear as outer clothing. I have been trying to find a nude colored one to use as a strapless bra though. Gwen strike you as an introvert
Sometimes, other times not. With DH having BTDT he can talk to her about it at least. I got nothing, I'm afraid it'll go in one ear and out the other because mommy is a "goody two shoes".
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 16, 2013 15:48:44 GMT -5
She can have as many crack jack tattoos as she wants. I was pretty sure you can't get them till you're 18 period nowadays but I couldn't remember. I'm not entirely sure on piercings either, I think anything besides ears in NE you have to be 18. Not sure about IA. Good example of a fashion trend I wouldn't let her wear, those bandeux things. Those are freaking sports bras under a fancy name! Only Superman gets away with wearing his underwear outside his clothes. I don't care how many girls are wearing them or how good her abs look, she's not wearing underwear as outer clothing. I have been trying to find a nude colored one to use as a strapless bra though. those are the thing my DD's HS complained about. I asked my daughter and she described them as looking more like bondage that sports bras though. Maybe there are diffeent styles. The school sent home a note that they are not considered outerwear.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:50:18 GMT -5
She can have as many crack jack tattoos as she wants. I was pretty sure you can't get them till you're 18 period nowadays but I couldn't remember. I'm not entirely sure on piercings either, I think anything besides ears in NE you have to be 18. Not sure about IA. Good example of a fashion trend I wouldn't let her wear, those bandeux things. Those are freaking sports bras under a fancy name! Only Superman gets away with wearing his underwear outside his clothes. I don't care how many girls are wearing them or how good her abs look, she's not wearing underwear as outer clothing. I have been trying to find a nude colored one to use as a strapless bra though. Gwen strike you as an introvert
Sometimes, other times not. With DH having BTDT he can talk to her about it at least. I got nothing, I'm afraid it'll go in one ear and out the other because mommy is a "goody two shoes". Why not? If everyone around her is wearing underwear as outerwear, it's really no longer underwear. So why not let her wear it if she wants? Among the people in her peer group, she won't look weird. What's your hangup with bandeaux?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 16, 2013 15:51:39 GMT -5
Also, let's be clear, it's likely it will be something completely different by the time our kids are teens.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 16, 2013 15:58:16 GMT -5
What's your hangup with bandeaux?
Probably my horrible out dated conservative midwestern values I don't bother to examine. It's underwear and I don't care how many other people are wearing one, just because they do it doesn't mean you need to as well. You're not "expressing yourself" if the sole reason you're wearing one is because every other teenager on the planet is wearing one. Style and fashion are not inseparable. Just because something's in fashion doesn't mean you need to or should wear it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 16:07:13 GMT -5
if i see a woman dressed like a streetwalker, do you think i care whether or not she dresses like that ALL the time? i know all i need to know...... she MAY be an angel the rest of the week....but on occasion, you can judge a book by it's cover Seriously? Just... seriously? You know ALL you need to know? All you could POSSIBLY learn from this person? You apparently have an issue with that.....i didnt say you couldnt try to get to know her.....i didnt say she was a bad person i said i had all the info i needed to make my assessment......
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