The Oregon Bakery part lll

[Tennesseer]

Sept 5, 2013 16:55:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 5, 2013 16:53:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I am not so sure this woman/these women were past customers of this bakery.  

I believe there is confusion with a case in Washington state where two men, regular customers of a florist, asked the florist to provide flowers for their upcoming wedding.  While the florist had served the men plenty of times in the past, she refused to provide flowers for their wedding based upon her religious beliefs.

This Washington case was previously discussed on these boards.

Barronelle Stutzman, Arlene's Flower Shop Florist, Refuses Washington Gay Wedding Job Because Of Religion

No, tennesseer.  These women were customers of the bakery.  One of them had bought a wedding cake at this bakery before.  The wedding cake was for her mother's wedding, I believe.

Yup.  You are right.  I remember you posted that on one of the many Oregon bakery threads.  My error.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Can you truly not discern between hatred of an act or ideology and hatred of an individual

I can discern between the two. But she was running a business that was supposedly to serve the public. She'd filled orders for this couple before. It was her stand against a gay marriage that made her refuse this order. Should the customer have lied and said the cake was for someone else in order to get her to bake it for them?

Now that she (the baker) has closed the doors, and decided to set up shop at home, she can run it as a private business - and pick and choose who she feels is worthy of her "heavenly" treats. I hope she's comfortable up on her high & mighty throne looking down on people.

[Value Buy]

Has anyone been to Disney World  in June when the Homosexual community fills the park?
They used to hold a get together-not sure if it was a convention.

Pirates of the Caribbean will never be the same for me.
Think Tunnel of Love

It was not exactly a pg13 day at the park, although in truth, a good time was had by all, just a different kind of day at the park than one would normally enjoy.
I wonder what Proboards would have done.

We had the chance to take two grandchildren to Disney on vacation celebrating  the end of classes for Kindergarten and First grade.
Needless to say, we had some semi adult conversations back at the hotel that evening explaining all the "celebrations" that were occurring around them.
Fifteen years later, they still talk about it. and say only Grandma and Grandpapa can up with these kind of trips.
Obviously Disney World would bake them a cake, but unlike the bakery, they are in it for the money.

[chiver78]

Sept 5, 2013 16:22:50 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Instead she let her personal hatred of a certain class of people influence her decision.

Can you truly not discern between hatred of an act or ideology and hatred of an individual?

"love the sinner, hate the sin" is quite frankly about as nauseating as blatant pity for the "lesser people" of whatever flavor they have chosen to disappoint the pious. just help the people that need and seek it, recognize that not everyone you (collective, not YOU Virgil) think might need help actually does, and go about your business.

[Value Buy]

Anyone open up the original article I posted?
From the article:



Georgina Porteous and Sid Innes of the United Kingdom recently tied the knot in a ceremony that included the works: a cake, dress, reception and rings. Their grand total, minus the marriage license fee? $1.56.




    of course, the rings were a little strange, but I leave it up to members to read the article.

[Deleted]

 So... if the bakery was NOT "in it for the money", their shutting down is not really an issue, is it?

[mmhmm]

I wonder what Proboards would have done.

That's easy!  They would have deleted Disney World!

[Value Buy]

Sept 5, 2013 19:07:48 GMT -5 @patiencetried said:

 So... if the bakery was NOT "in it for the money", their shutting down is not really an issue, is it?

It would be an issue if they were baking cakes for Jesus.

[Value Buy]

Today, the Governor of Minnesota was in Chicago, promoting the gay wedding marriage business in Minneapolis.
Minnesota has developed an advertising campaign inviting the Gay community to spend a few days up there getting married and spending their money with their families and friends.
He was inviting one and all to travel to Minneapolis for their wedding vows, and had many bakeries willing to supply the wedding cakes.
Buttercream icing optional, but extra charge.

Illinois politicians were alarmed because it will take revenue away from an already bankrupt state, but that is a story for another day.

[chiver78]

Value Buy do you happen to have a link for that? I play hockey with a couple here in MA that originally moved here in order to get married, close to 10 years ago now. one of the ladies is originally from MN. I'd love to be able to share that with her, on the slim chance she hasn't already heard about it by now.

thank you

[chiver78]

I can't see anything unless I subscribe

[Value Buy]

I see mmhmm beat me, but here is WMAQ'S report.

www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Minneapolis-Attempts-to-Lure-Chicago-Same-Sex-Couples-222189241.html

[Value Buy]

There is big money in selling to the gay community.
Their household income usually beats heterosexual couples bigtime.

[mmhmm]

Sept 5, 2013 20:01:28 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

There is big money in selling to the gay community.
Their household income usually beats heterosexual couples bigtime.

Yes, it does, reportedly.  They're also more likely to spend freely and to tip well when treated well.  I imagine the mayor's advertising is quite a boon for Minneapolis.

[mmhmm]

Sept 5, 2013 19:59:00 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I can't see anything unless I subscribe

That's weird!  I can see it and I don't have a subscription.

[mmhmm]

I can get Value Buy's link, too, chiver.  Maybe that one will work for you. 

ETA:  I'm going to remove my post with the link since it doesn't seem to be working for everyone.

[chiver78]

thank you both. I can see VB's link on an nbc affiliate. I don't actively subscribe to anything, but I do have an online account for some things there. I don't know if that matters at all to anyone else being able to view the link.

Kudos to Mayor Rybak for being enterprising here - he's totally tapping into an area of the public that isn't being served where they are. I hope that Minneapolis does well in his marketing endeavour and that Chicago learns enough from their losses to push the rest of the state to move toward equality for all.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 5, 2013 15:51:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Sept 5, 2013 15:44:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I have no idea what I am.  I get yelled at over here for being a liberal. But over on YM when I say I wouldn't let my kid go goth I'm told I'm and overly controlling conservative who won't let my kid hypothetically express herself.

I'm so confused.

I'm a staunch conservative who doesnt' care if two lesbians want to marry (but I draw the line at the mullet ) and Im ok with limited gun control...realistically, if someone needs a gun RIGHT NOW and doesn't want to wait for a background check, that might be a person that we don't want having a gun....does that make me a liberal

not really.  i know plenty of liberals that are pro-gun, including me.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 5, 2013 15:51:40 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

Sept 5, 2013 15:41:09 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Umm, no.  Dj has repeatedly let people know he IS a liberal.

Since you are aware of these "I'm a liberal" posts by DJ...can you reference some posts for me? I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong if I truly am.

there is a search function at this board.  this might be a good time to familiarize yourself with it.

Siding with liberals on some things and truly identifying yourself as a liberal are not the same thing.

i don't generally side with anyone.  but i am a liberal.

I'm sure DJ could also point me to these posts where he professes his liberalism.

yes, i can.  why don't you try the search function FIRST tho?

edit: there are threads where Virgil and i spent page after page arguing about liberalism.  in those threads, i made it very clear that i was a liberal, and Virgil understood this quite well.  if you don't believe me, ask HIM.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 5, 2013 16:19:44 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

Sept 5, 2013 16:10:08 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Reply #120 on this thread, this page should serve your needs nicely, FinancialTexan.  Any further evidence you need should be supplied by dj, if he wishes to do so.

After the fact of my post..but as I've looked through the last 34 pages of his posts, he's mentioned that he's a liberal exactly twice that I could see and one is the post you are referencing so I was wrong. While he doesn't mention that he's a liberal "all the time" as you incorrectly suggested...he has in fact said he's a liberal....at least as far back as I can go...

nobody ever asks, but i should think it obvious.  furthermore, i am proud of it.  so there.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 5, 2013 16:22:50 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Instead she let her personal hatred of a certain class of people influence her decision.

Can you truly not discern between hatred of an act or ideology and hatred of an individual?

Am I just a mindless hater of homosexuals in your mind?

Am I necessarily a hater of men who practice or condone an act if I hate the act itself?

Am I like-minded to men who seek out, beat and torture homosexuals, differing only in the sense that I do not act out on my hatred?

Considering the clear and profound hatred being expressed for fundamentalist Christian 'homophobic' views on homosexuality, and considering most here would claim not to hate Christians who hold these views, I would think you fathom the distinction. Furthermore I would think that you'd extend us and the bakery owners the decency of respecting it in your writing.

I do not "personally hate" homosexuals. You may refuse to believe it, but the bakery owners' comments makes a compelling case that their decision was based on principle and that they do not "personally hate" homosexuals.

Some posters throw around "hateful bigots" like lawnmowers chewing up dog feces. Their predilections are known and their arguments are largely ignored. But for the rest of you, if you have any interest whatsoever in assaying the minds of your opponents, respect and acknowledge in your writing the distinction between hatred of person and hatred of action/ideology.

personally, all of the fundamentalist religious folk think they are doing the right thing by God and their religion.  the problem, of course, is that they can't move far enough out of their paradigm to see how unwelcome and condescending their positions are.  we liberals really don't have that problem, if you are wondering.  i love you just as much as you love me, without feeling any need to change you to please my God or myself.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 5, 2013 20:59:30 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

thank you both. I can see VB's link on an nbc affiliate. I don't actively subscribe to anything, but I do have an online account for some things there. I don't know if that matters at all to anyone else being able to view the link.

Kudos to Mayor Rybak for being enterprising here - he's totally tapping into an area of the public that isn't being served where they are. I hope that Minneapolis does well in his marketing endeavour and that Chicago learns enough from their losses to push the rest of the state to move toward equality for all.

It would be smart for Iowa to advertise too.  Neither Minnesota or Iowa have residency requirements and Iowa abuts Illinois.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 5, 2013 16:52:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 5, 2013 16:19:44 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

After the fact of my post..but as I've looked through the last 34 pages of his posts, he's mentioned that he's a liberal exactly twice that I could see and one is the post you are referencing so I was wrong. While he doesn't mention that he's a liberal "all the time" as you incorrectly suggested...he has in fact said he's a liberal....at least as far back as I can go...

Ahem.  This is what I posted:

"Umm, no. Dj has repeatedly let people know he IS a liberal."

Now, can you show me where in what I posted I indicate dj is a liberal "all the time"?  I can't know that, can I?  He might be a liberal only on Wednesday afternoons, for all I know.  The point is he's repeatedly said he's a liberal and he's told you again today he's a liberal.  If you have a problem with that, take it up with dj.  I'm through with your silly game.

this might also be a good time to point out that i have never claimed to be a moderate or a conservative.

[chiver78]

Sept 5, 2013 21:27:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 5, 2013 15:51:40 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

Since you are aware of these "I'm a liberal" posts by DJ...can you reference some posts for me? I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong if I truly am.

there is a search function at this board.  this might be a good time to familiarize yourself with it.

Siding with liberals on some things and truly identifying yourself as a liberal are not the same thing.

i don't generally side with anyone.  but i am a liberal.

I'm sure DJ could also point me to these posts where he professes his liberalism.

yes, i can.  why don't you try the search function FIRST tho?

edit: there are threads where Virgil and i spent page after page arguing about liberalism.  in those threads, i made it very clear that i was a liberal, and Virgil understood this quite well.  if you don't believe me, ask HIM.

not for nothing, but the basic search function on this board pretty much sucks. you're absolutely better served in starting with a specific poster or board, and searching by keywords.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 5, 2013 21:43:00 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Sept 5, 2013 21:27:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

yes, i can.  why don't you try the search function FIRST tho?

edit: there are threads where Virgil and i spent page after page arguing about liberalism.  in those threads, i made it very clear that i was a liberal, and Virgil understood this quite well.  if you don't believe me, ask HIM.

not for nothing, but the basic search function on this board pretty much sucks. you're absolutely better served in starting with a specific poster or board, and searching by keywords.

there are enough filters that it works fairly well for me.  but i have to admit that i have to narrow the search quite a bit to get good results.

[mmhmm]

Sept 5, 2013 21:42:12 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 5, 2013 16:52:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Ahem.  This is what I posted:

"Umm, no. Dj has repeatedly let people know he IS a liberal."

Now, can you show me where in what I posted I indicate dj is a liberal "all the time"?  I can't know that, can I?  He might be a liberal only on Wednesday afternoons, for all I know.  The point is he's repeatedly said he's a liberal and he's told you again today he's a liberal.  If you have a problem with that, take it up with dj.  I'm through with your silly game.

this might also be a good time to point out that i have never claimed to be a moderate or a conservative.

No.  To my knowledge, you've never claimed either, dj, and you've talked about your political leanings several times, in pretty fair detail.

[chiver78]

since the "upgrade" to V5, I have yet to have a search from the base engine NOT time out. I don't think a basic keyword search is over and above the ordinary, and I won't give PB a mulligan on it. V4 wasn't great, but the search function still worked once in a while.

[mmhmm]

I don't use the search function often, but it's worked fairly well when I have used it.  I know ProBoards Support has had posts about it and they've been working on it.  

[djAdvocate]

i found three threads where i stated i was a liberal.  two involved Virgil, the other Paul.

again: i would suggest the FT takes this up with Virgil.  he can vouch for me.  i have probably made the claim at least a dozen times- a couple of them in considerable detail.  if anyone really cares.

[Value Buy]

Sept 5, 2013 21:42:12 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 5, 2013 16:52:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Ahem.  This is what I posted:

"Umm, no. Dj has repeatedly let people know he IS a liberal."

Now, can you show me where in what I posted I indicate dj is a liberal "all the time"?  I can't know that, can I?  He might be a liberal only on Wednesday afternoons, for all I know.  The point is he's repeatedly said he's a liberal and he's told you again today he's a liberal.  If you have a problem with that, take it up with dj.  I'm through with your silly game.

this might also be a good time to point out that i have never claimed to be a moderate or a conservative.

No, you never have.
I think FT has the same problem I do when you tell us you are a Republican.
It is a conundrum.