Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 29, 2013 14:59:38 GMT -5
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Aug 29, 2013 15:01:52 GMT -5
So, I should let my kids get a crappy education so public schools become better? Um, no.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 29, 2013 15:05:19 GMT -5
There is an issue there and a point, I'll give you that, but with the language she uses its lost. I kept thinking "what a bitch" while reading it. If I hadn't already read the OP I would have missed what she was trying to say completely.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 29, 2013 15:05:29 GMT -5
I read the article and there is only one idea in which the author is even partially correct - that even if everybody followed her advice and did this, that it would take 25 years to change and improve public schools.
If the public school system were to agree to abolish the union contract and have management that was accountable in any way, shape or form, I would consider this as a reasonable idea. As the system stands, however, we can all send our kids to public school and complain/work/cajole/participate all we want, but there is very, very little chance of making some of the basic changes needed to improve education. Because one of the basic changes needed to improve education is the ability to reward great teachers, incentivize mediocre teachers to improve and to get rid of bad teachers.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 29, 2013 15:06:15 GMT -5
There is an issue there and a point, I'll give you that but with the language she uses its lost. I understand her point but I kept thinking "what a bitch" while reading it. Me, too. Except I kept inserting a key phrase. By her own admission, the author is an "ignorant" bitch.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 29, 2013 15:07:35 GMT -5
I think the author makes some compelling arguments, and her premise is sound. In theory, if everyone used the public schools, overall they would likely improve over time. I also agree with the premise that a child's education is more influenced by the parent's involvement more than anything else, including what type of school they go to. In other words, I think private school and homeschooling are not necessarily suprior forms of education, but rather the fact that by definition in order to employ those methods of education, the parents have to be seriously invested in their child's education. Also, in order to send your kid to private school, or homeschool, you are usually wealthier than average, which is associated with more positive educational outcomes in and of itself. So homeschooling and private school give the impression that they are supirior forms of schooling, when really it's just a demographical difference.
But I'm getting off topic. I disagree with the author's assertion that you have a moral obligation to society as a whole instead of an obligation to your children. I think you owe your kids the best you can afford to provide (at least in regards to education). I also feel parents should have a choice in how they educate their children. The author dismisses out of hand things like wanting to raise your child in a religious enviornment. Shouldn't that be within a parent's rights?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:11:44 GMT -5
I know people who think this. When I asked my evaluator if she had decided about homeschooling her own kids, she still wasn't sure... 'You know, we hate to take all of the good kids out of the system' vein of thought...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:13:51 GMT -5
Admittedly, didn't read the article, but I would think that people sending their kids to private schools would be loved! The parents are still paying taxes to fund schools, but not using what they're paying for. More money for everyone else!!!
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 29, 2013 15:15:02 GMT -5
I know people who think this. When I asked my evaluator if she had decided about homeschooling her own kids, she still wasn't sure... 'You know, we hate to take all of the good kids out of the system' vein of thought... That's the same argument used to support mainstreaming. The problem is that the only studies I've shown that cite benefit from mainstreaming only show benefit for the kids at the bottom and that mainstreaming can help bring those kids up (not always, but can.) Haven't seen any convincing evidence that mainstreaming helps the kids at the top at all. So if you have a kid who is at the top level of performance, you're supposed to sacrifice that kid for the good of the kids at the bottom who might possibly be lifted up?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 29, 2013 15:17:10 GMT -5
I agree that any school is better with parental involvement.
BUT it's a small tip of the iceburg when it comes to failing schools. I'm sure quite a few parents at bad schools care and care A LOT but the school keeps sinking. Throwing more kids into the situation won't solve the problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:17:14 GMT -5
Admittedly, didn't read the article, but I would think that people sending their kids to private schools would be loved! The parents are still paying taxes to fund schools, but not using what they're paying for. More money for everyone else!!! Does it work that way though? I always thought the amount of money the schools received was based on enrollment numbers. Less kids. Less money.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 29, 2013 15:17:58 GMT -5
From the article
"As rotten as my school’s English, history, science, social studies, math, art, music, and language programs were, going to school with poor kids and rich kids, black kids and brown kids, smart kids and not-so-smart ones, kids with superconservative Christian parents and other upper-middle-class Jews like me was its own education and life preparation. Reading Walt Whitman in ninth grade changed the way you see the world? Well, getting drunk before basketball games with kids who lived at the trailer park near my house did the same for me. In fact it’s part of the reason I feel so strongly about public schools."
Yeah. OK. My kids are living a life of deprivation because I won't encourage them to get drunk before school games with kids in the near by trailer park. If my kids are failures as adults. Well, I'll know why.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:26:46 GMT -5
Admittedly, didn't read the article, but I would think that people sending their kids to private schools would be loved! The parents are still paying taxes to fund schools, but not using what they're paying for. More money for everyone else!!! Does it work that way though? I always thought the amount of money the schools received was based on enrollment numbers. Less kids. Less money. Perhaps from federal funding. I have a feeling monkey is speaking more about school taxes that one pays whether or not your child is attending...or in my case....whether you even have a child. I have yet to see any "discount" for not having any children when it comes time to pay school taxes.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 29, 2013 15:26:56 GMT -5
I'm also tired of the assumptions that if you do private school, you have to be upper middle class or rich.
Our state law makers voted to give income tax breaks next year to families that send their kids to private school. People pissed and moaned that it was the rich that are getting the tax breaks.
I'd like to know where all this money is that is making me rich.....Last I checked, solid middle class wasn't rich.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:29:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I was bad all right. I spent nearly $50,000 on DS' HS education 10 years ago. And I greatly disagree with the author's contention that smart kids with parents who have solid values will do OK no matter what school system they're in. DS was falling between the cracks in a well-regarded public school system and falling further behind every year. He needed something different, and thank God I could afford it.
I am sick of the government taking over everything (and taking out tax dollars to pay for it). This is one are where we still have alternatives, although they're expensive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:31:08 GMT -5
Does it work that way though? I always thought the amount of money the schools received was based on enrollment numbers. Less kids. Less money. Perhaps from federal funding. I have a feeling monkey is speaking more about school taxes that one pays whether or not your child is attending...or in my case....whether you even have a child. I have yet to see any "discount" for not having any children when it comes time to pay school taxes. Exactly. I have paid school taxes (via property taxes) for about 10 years now and it will be another 4 or so years before we can start using public schools. I always wanted to argue having to pay them when I didn't even have a child....but at the end of the day, I know that's not a fight I would win. My parents now live in an area where there are no school taxes because, by code, no one less than 55 can live there. Ah retirement communities.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 29, 2013 15:31:59 GMT -5
I left home woefully unprepared for college, and without that preparation, I left college without having learned much there either. You know all those important novels that everyone’s read? I haven’t. I know nothing about poetry, very little about art, and please don’t quiz me on the dates of the Civil War.
I also thought that bragging about how little you know is NOT a good way to get people to agree with you. Yeah, sign my kid up to attend the schools this author did. Umm. .. no.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:32:40 GMT -5
I'm also tired of the assumptions that if you do private school, you have to be upper middle class or rich. Our state law makers voted to give income tax breaks next year to families that send their kids to private school. People pissed and moaned that it was the rich that are getting the tax breaks. I'd like to know where all this money is that is making me rich.....Last I checked, solid middle class wasn't rich. No kidding. If we had stayed in the city I just moved from, I would have sent my (future) child(ren) to private school. Yes...I might have had to make sacrifices and not gotten everything I wanted, but it would have been worth that sacrifice to me. Thankfully, I moved to a city with a great (right now) school district. Obviously that can change and if it takes a turn for the worse, then I will definitely reevaluate my options when the time comes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:34:00 GMT -5
I'm also tired of the assumptions that if you do private school, you have to be upper middle class or rich. Our state law makers voted to give income tax breaks next year to families that send their kids to private school. People pissed and moaned that it was the rich that are getting the tax breaks. I'd like to know where all this money is that is making me rich.....Last I checked, solid middle class wasn't rich. We're probably putting older son in private school starting next year and aren't even solid middle class. More like just below the reduced/free lunch cutoff.
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 29, 2013 15:34:07 GMT -5
This article makes a HUGE assumption - - that the behemoth, dysfunctional system you're in will actually allow you a voice to make changes. Wrong. At least where I live. YMMV.
In the mean time (my charges are grown and gone and married), I was not going to sacrifice a good quality education for them at the expense of social engineering. And I don't even apologize for that last statement. Their ability to make good livings for themselves and their families because they were well educated was not negotiable for me. Raising intelligent girls who could stand on their own two feet as adults, take care of themselves and not be a burden on society is the only true, lasting gift I could really give them. So I did it.
If that makes me bad, so be it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:35:13 GMT -5
I left home woefully unprepared for college, and without that preparation, I left college without having learned much there either. You know all those important novels that everyone’s read? I haven’t. I know nothing about poetry, very little about art, and please don’t quiz me on the dates of the Civil War.
I also thought that bragging about how little you know is NOT a good way to get people to agree with you. Yeah, sign my kid up to attend the schools this author did. Umm. .. no. Well, shoot. I don't know this stuff either and I thought I was doing ok. Guess I need to rethink my life....
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 29, 2013 15:35:47 GMT -5
This article makes a HUGE assumption - - that the behemoth, dysfunctional system you're in will actually allow you a voice to make changes. Wrong. At least where I live
My system isn't bad but they don't give two shits what parents say/want. It's what's best for them and their pockets.
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sesfw
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Today is the first day of the rest of my life
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Post by sesfw on Aug 29, 2013 15:37:19 GMT -5
'that it would take 25 years to change and improve public schools.'
Actually I think it would take about 40 years to change and improve. This would take 2 full generations of parents and teachers.
Moses had the right idea when he took the Israelites on a 40 years hike in the wilderness. This way 2 generations of slaves died off and the young people that saw the promised land were strong and free.
It's going to be at least 40 years after 'we the people' have decided enough is enough and do something about it.
Our DD went to a private school and we had no problems paying the school tax. Both of us were working manufacturing jobs but we wanted a good education for DD. I've never even considered myself to be a bad person ........... just a good parent.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Aug 29, 2013 15:37:41 GMT -5
I think it is a faulty assumption that each child learns the same way and therefore should be educated the same way.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 29, 2013 15:38:38 GMT -5
Well, shoot. I don't know this stuff either and I thought I was doing ok. Guess I need to rethink my life
I can't spout historitcal dates off my head either but I know enough that if I'm trying to make an argument to save public schools I don't list in the article how lousy my education was and how I was totally unprepared for college. . .but hey send your kid to these schools!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:40:00 GMT -5
Or people can do what we did - move to a town with a great school system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:41:28 GMT -5
Well, shoot. I don't know this stuff either and I thought I was doing ok. Guess I need to rethink my life
I can't spout historitcal dates off my head either but I know enough that if I'm trying to make an argument to save public schools I don't list in the article how lousy my education was and how I was totally unprepared for college. . .but hey send your kid to these schools! Obviously, they didn't have a debate team.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 29, 2013 15:46:30 GMT -5
And she did just fine! Look how she's doing now!
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 29, 2013 15:52:59 GMT -5
We're probably putting older son in private school starting next year and aren't even solid middle class. More like just below the reduced/free lunch cutoff. If I didn't work my night job, we would qualify for free/reduced lunches, WIC, etc. Having that third child really has it's perks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 15:54:15 GMT -5
Hmm. The author should mind their own business....but that is asking way too much from a liberal.
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