Pressure to raise your kids a certain way

[swamp]

Aug 20, 2013 8:50:23 GMT -5 milee said:

Aug 20, 2013 8:37:19 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

 

A good job can ususally be done when you're middle aged.  Sports and dance cannot. 

But yes, sports and dance can be done in middle age and that's why we need to make those activities available to a broad range of kids, not just the ones who want to play them on an elite level. 

Getting kids into physical activities that they enjoy and can do for the rest of their lives is, IMHO, one of the best things a parent can do for their kids' long term health. 

Which is why I spend a large portion of my leisure time putting the kids in activities.  I don't do it for them to be superstars, I do it for them to be exposed to a bunch of different activities and pick the ones they like best. 

[swamp]

Last year, DS played hockey.  He was 6.  There was practice 4 days a week and games where we had to travel at least an hour several times.  This year, he would move up to Mites where they have even more games and the same amount of practices, and some of the practices were 6:30 to 7:30 at night.

He opted not to play.  Not that he doesn't like hockey, the season is too long and he plays to often.    The minor hockey league just lost a decent player because they pushed him too much as a little kid.    But then there are other parents who think the kids need even more ice time.  Whatever.

[milee]

Aug 20, 2013 11:00:32 GMT -5 swamp said:

Last year, DS played hockey.  He was 6.  There was practice 4 days a week and games where we had to travel at least an hour several times.  This year, he would move up to Mites where they have even more games and the same amount of practices, and some of the practices were 6:30 to 7:30 at night.

He opted not to play.  Not that he doesn't like hockey, the season is too long and he plays to often.    The minor hockey league just lost a decent player because they pushed him too much as a little kid.    But then there are other parents who think the kids need even more ice time.  Whatever.

Exactly the problem.

I'm hoping in the future there are parallel tracks developed.  Kids who want and need the extra time and practice to compete at an elite level should have a way to get that (which is what is happening around here in most of the sports for kids after about age 8 or 9.)

Here's what's missing and IMHO would be a great thing for the kids, families and society: club level sports for kids who want to play but for whom the sport isn't going to be a way of life and/or they have other activities they want to do.  For example, why not have a fun league where the kids can play hockey 2-3 days a week?  Games would be once or twice a month and focus more on camaraderie than score.

[Deleted]

We've got something like that around here:
www.kidsplaywny.com/

[Phoenix84]

Well, I don't have kids, so no one has pressured me to do anything in that regard.  But people do often try to impose their own views of the world on others for some reason, and seek external rationilization for their choices. 

Given that I didn't really do much in the way of activities when I was a kid, I'd probably adopt a similar stance that my own parents did.  Basically, just leave it up to your kids as to what they want to do.  If they want to pursue a specific activity on a more serious level, and you can afford it, and have the time for it, then you should support them.  If they don't want to pursue a given activity on a more serious level, and are just trying it out or doing it for fun, then don't pressure them.  If they don't want to do any activities, then that's okay too. 

I never did much in the way of activities, and I'm certainly not a very good athlete.  I turned out to be a productive member of society.

However, the idea of foregoing school to pursue an activity like dancing is ludicous to me.  I'd never let my kid skip school to do dancing or sports.  Like you, they need to get educated and get a "real job."  I don't think many make it in the dacing or sports world.  I guess I always viewed those things as hobbies, not professions.  You need to be able to make a living doing something else.

[toomuchreality]

The biggest (worst?) pressure I got, and that my kids got, was in regard to religion (being baptized to the popular one, in the area). It sucked. My oldest daughter and I both, did it to get them to back off. I suppose it was also to be accepted, to some degree. The totally wrong reasons for doing it.
Instead of keeping me motivated to attend, it had the opposite effect.

[Formerly SK]

However, the idea of foregoing school to pursue an activity like dancing is ludicous to me. I'd never let my kid skip school to do dancing or sports. Like you, they need to get educated and get a "real job." I don't think many make it in the dacing or sports world. I guess I always viewed those things as hobbies, not professions. You need to be able to make a living doing something else.

The team practice for gymnastics at the place my DD went to started 30 mins before the local elementary schools ended.  All those team kids missed the last 30 mins of school 4 days/wk.  I was dumbfounded that parents would do that, and that the schools would go along with it. 

[Deleted]

 I agree that once they've signed up for something they're going to finish out the season. 

[swamp]

Aug 20, 2013 12:22:17 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

 I agree that once they've signed up for something they're going to finish out the season. 

me too.

[formerroomate99]

A good job can ususally be done when you're middle aged. Sports and dance cannot.

But yes, sports and dance can be done in middle age and that's why we need to make those activities available to a broad range of kids, not just the ones who want to play them on an elite level.

Getting kids into physical activities that they enjoy and can do for the rest of their lives is, IMHO, one of the best things a parent can do for their kids' long term health.

I was talking about for a living.  
A regular office job can be done until retirement age and beyond. 
A job as a professional athlete or dancer cannot.   
Letting your kids play sports for fun is one thing.  Pushing them to the point where the only thing guaranteed is that they won't be able to walk normally by the time they are 50 is something else. 
Last time I went to physical therapy, I went to a place where half the practice was for kids, because these stupid sports parents and their stupid year round elite leagues were wrecking these kids bodies doing too much too soon.   

[Deleted]

i met a lot of fathers who tried to live vicariously through their son's athletic achievements

i was an asst coach for my son in little league....7-10 yr olds

i couldnt be there all the time with my work schedule....but i was there enough to see some of the issues

fathers screaming at the coach because their kids isnt getting enough innings....or isnt playing the right position

worse yet....fathers yelling at their kids instead of encouraging them.....

athletics...baseball, football, soccer, hockey.....they should be FUN first....competitive second

not every kid is athletically inclined.....but they all need the experience of working for a common goal, and learning to be a team

those lessons were getting lost by a lot of parents.....

i dont believe in trophies for everyone.....there should be winners and losers

learning how to do both graciously is one of life's important lessons

[greeniis10]

Thyme, I'm glad you enjoy your neighbors and neighborhood, but I would never put up with people telling me (or even inferring) how to raise my kids!  People need to mind their own business.  They don't even know how their own kids are going to turn out yet, for Pete's sake - enough with the "helpful advice"!

I think it's more of a "big picture" thing, too.  I mean, do parents really want their kids to be so good at sports that they get their college paid for by a scholarship (which they risk losing at the first injury), earn a degree and move onto a career?  Or do they really want them to be the next millionaire professional athlete?  I'm sure this isn't exclusive to Alabama, but in their college recruiting material they make it known how many football players have gone onto the NFL and what their salaries are/were.  If professional athletes weren't paid ridiculous amounts of money would parents be as pushy about sports when their kids are young?  I may be wrong, but I say NO. 

[greeniis10]

Also, Archie's point on pg.1 of this thread is SO true: you can push your kids to be great athletes and they may hate you, or you may not push them, they see other kids excelling, and they hate you.  You can't win, really.

We're seeing this firsthand with our grandson.  Oldest DS was a state-champion wrestler in high school.  From elementary school to the day he graduated high school he ate, slept, and breathed wrestling.  He loved it so we put in the endless hours for practices and weekend traveling for tournaments for YEARS.  He now wants his son to wrestle.  He's 7 and he has wrestled for the past 2 years.  DS knows how much he sacrificed to be a state champ.  He wants to give his son the same opportunity but he does NOT want to push him.  He was glad he accomplished what he did, but he also had several friends that burned out on wrestling and came to hate the sport.  It's a dilemma.  We shall see what happens...

[shanendoah]

I think part of it is validation. People want "proof" that their decisions were the right ones. So if you make the same decisions they did, then you have validated their decisions.

I think it's a hard balancing act. If you ask DD (almost 10) what she wants to be when she grows up, the list goes like this "doctor, veterinarian, dog trainer, nurse, grocery store checker". And I'm having to fight putting pressure on her myself, because let me tell you, "grocery store checker", (NOT what Carl does) isn't an acceptable career to me. She can bag groceries in high school. She can work as a checker while she decides what she wants to do in college, but being a checker for the long term, even for a company like CostCo, is not, to me, an acceptable career.
If she worked as a checker and then moved into management (like Carl), I'd be good with that.

But then I have to remember where she's come from. I think of the Tracy Chapman song "Fast Car" and realize that in the world DD lived in for the first 7 years of her life, grocery store checker might have been the most stable job she was aware of. And since she insists she's not smart (she is, but she's been conditioned not to see it), it might also seem to her like the best she can achieve some days.

We have to find the balance in ourselves between pushing her hard enough that she realizes she is smart and can be a doctor if that's what she decides, and making her feel like she's not good enough/smart enough. And then once we manage to find that balance, we have to figure out a way to impart that to the rest of the family....

[Phoenix84]

Where do your kids get ideas that they want to be menial laborors?  No one on TV I'm aware of is a McDonald's worker or grocery store checker. 

I can't recall ever seriously thinking I wanted to do something like that when I grew up.  Though I do think one time I said to my mom I wanted to be a potato peeler when I grew up because I liked peeling potatos. 

I think I wanted to be an astronaut for a while, and a helicopter pilot, and then a meteorologist.

[shanendoah]

@missmargarita - there are days when she wants to be a vegetarian, too. We've talked about that, and that we would support her in that. (We have both been vegetarians at some point in our lives.) Of course, we gave her a veggie burger one day when we were doing hamburgers/turkey burgers and she pretty quickly decided she wanted meat. We did, though, just this last trip to the store, buy boca burgers, which we both like more than veggie burgers and figured we'd give her one of those as an option, too.

[Deleted]

DD wants to be a vegetarian (she's 8). I told her to research a healthy diet that doesn't include meat...she eats what I make so far.

[shanendoah]

Phoenix84 - It's not a job she sees on TV, but it's one she sees in real life. I would say the same is probably true for Miss M's kid. The person at McDonalds works at McDonalds, which as a kid, is a pretty cool place to work. I can't tell you how many adults I knew who wanted to work at WotC (and still do), despite the fact that they are famous for being awful to their employees, because it seems like a cool place to work. Same with Microsoft. There's a cache associated with being a contractor at MS, even though they don't treat the contractors very well. (We had a major lawsuit about it, which changed the laws not to make MS treat contractors better, but instead makes it so all contractors have a worse time of it.)

And for DD, while working at a grocery store may not be cool, again, there are 7 years of her life that I know pretty much nothing about, and it's very possible that that may have seemed like the most stable job around during that time, or that others in her life pretty much told her that that was the best she could hope for. That's all speculation on my part. All I really know about those 7 years is that they were chaotic and that at 5, she had to care for 2-3 younger siblings.

[steph08]

Aug 20, 2013 17:20:14 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Where do your kids get ideas that they want to be menial laborors?  No one on TV I'm aware of is a McDonald's worker or grocery store checker. 

I can't recall ever seriously thinking I wanted to do something like that when I grew up.  Though I do think one time I said to my mom I wanted to be a potato peeler when I grew up because I liked peeling potatos. 

I think I wanted to be an astronaut for a while, and a helicopter pilot, and then a meteorologist.

I would still love to be a grocery store checker, no lie. I love the self checkout lanes at the grocery store. I love cash registers and punching the numbers in and the drawer sliding out and scanning the bar codes and stuff. I just think it is fun, of course, I have never done it as a job, so then it might not be fun anymore.

Now I want a second job as a grocery store checker!

[Formerly SK]

Aug 20, 2013 17:20:14 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Where do your kids get ideas that they want to be menial laborors?  No one on TV I'm aware of is a McDonald's worker or grocery store checker. 

I can't recall ever seriously thinking I wanted to do something like that when I grew up.  Though I do think one time I said to my mom I wanted to be a potato peeler when I grew up because I liked peeling potatos. 

I think I wanted to be an astronaut for a while, and a helicopter pilot, and then a meteorologist.

Well, my 7&8 year olds both still want to grow up to be Jedis.  And yes, they fully plan to attend college to learn to be one.  For my part, I just emphasize Jedis need to know a lot about reading/math/science so they can drive the space ships and use the weapons correctly. 

[thyme4change]

Aug 20, 2013 12:00:38 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

However, the idea of foregoing school to pursue an activity like dancing is ludicous to me. I'd never let my kid skip school to do dancing or sports. Like you, they need to get educated and get a "real job." I don't think many make it in the dacing or sports world. I guess I always viewed those things as hobbies, not professions. You need to be able to make a living doing something else.

The team practice for gymnastics at the place my DD went to started 30 mins before the local elementary schools ended.  All those team kids missed the last 30 mins of school 4 days/wk.  I was dumbfounded that parents would do that, and that the schools would go along with it. 

Amazing.  I wouldn't have done that.  In fact, we backed out of a meet that was on Friday because we said we didn't want to start the precedence of pulling our kid out of school for sports.  I know that day will come - I missed days of school for band stuff, but not in 3rd grade.  

[thyme4change]

Aug 20, 2013 15:43:47 GMT -5 greeniis10 said:

I think it's more of a "big picture" thing, too.  I mean, do parents really want their kids to be so good at sports that they get their college paid for by a scholarship (which they risk losing at the first injury), earn a degree and move onto a career?  Or do they really want them to be the next millionaire professional athlete?  I'm sure this isn't exclusive to Alabama, but in their college recruiting material they make it known how many football players have gone onto the NFL and what their salaries are/were.  If professional athletes weren't paid ridiculous amounts of money would parents be as pushy about sports when their kids are young?  I may be wrong, but I say NO. 

My friend has bought 100% the idea that college athletes make better professionals and every single hiring manager on the planet would choose an athlete over a non-athlete with the same experience.  In fact, she believes she is more qualified than people with a decade of experience because "athletes are so driven, so everyone wants us."  I have to sheepishly say "I haven't had a single athletic achievement, and I'm damn good at my job."  I refrain from adding: "Much better than you would be, so fuck off."  

I think part of it is validation. People want "proof" that their decisions were the right ones. So if you make the same decisions they did, then you have validated their decisions.

This is probably very true - especially with the ballerina mom.  That kid is costing them a lot of money, and she sacrificed a lot.  If she doesn't make company next year, I hope she marries well.  Mom is very artsy, so I think she loves having that kind of achievement, but she is also realistic, and knows that the arts aren't normally a stable, long-term career path.  Things have been very tough on that family in the past few years.  If pride in her daughter is keeping her going, I can understand that.

[milee]

Aug 20, 2013 17:20:14 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Where do your kids get ideas that they want to be menial laborors?  No one on TV I'm aware of is a McDonald's worker or grocery store checker. 

I can't recall ever seriously thinking I wanted to do something like that when I grew up.  Though I do think one time I said to my mom I wanted to be a potato peeler when I grew up because I liked peeling potatos. 

I think I wanted to be an astronaut for a while, and a helicopter pilot, and then a meteorologist.

It's very normal for kids to want to do jobs that require them using equipment that they find fascinating as kids.  My younger son has said many times he'd like to be a cashier at Target because he wants to wear a red vest and push buttons on the register.  A friend's 3 year old son wanted desperately to be a garbageman because he was obsessed with how cool the garbage trucks are (and his parents are an ER doc and top lawyer).  Younger kids don't yet understand the pay differentials between jobs nor can they conceive that something that's awesome when you're 7 might get boring when you're 37...

[swamp]

My 7 year old wants to be "the guy that reads the news on TV". 

[Otto the Orange]

Oh boy.....They say city living is expensive, but I guess in a way it's lucky for my parents I grew up there......All these things you all mentioned I pretty much did for free......With so many kids in the city it was easy to do pick up games & we always played Basketball, soccer, football, baseball, etc. for free (well minus the cost of a football or a bat or something)....Only thing I missed out on was the hockey thing (but we did play on roller skates if that counts?).

Are there no pick-up games even in the rural areas in like a YMCA or something?  Also a lot of times a bunch of us would hang around after school for an hour or so and play a sport (we would bring a basketball or whatever to school that day)....Do kids not do these things anymore? 

[thyme4change]

Otto the Orange - I don't think kids do that anymore, because a bunch of smart people came along and made parents feel guilty for letting kids figure that out for themselves, so they created leagues and charged all the parents, and now, if you want to play anything, you have to be in a league.  Then they realized that if they made it seem competitive and dangled scholarships in front of parents, we would pay out the butthole for it.  

I will say that we do have some rec leagues that aren't too intense.  We also have after school groups that do sports for no other reason but the love of sports - they only play against each other, etc.  But, that does cost money.  

[milee]

We don't have enough kids in our immediate neighborhood to form teams for sports.  It's the land of the old people around here.  I'm just really grateful that one son has a friend that lives a mile away (biking distance) and the other has a friend that lives about 1.5 miles away.  We do have neighbor kids that are closer, but they're 3-4 years younger.

[Malarky]

Aug 20, 2013 8:53:35 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Aug 20, 2013 8:46:09 GMT -5 milee said:

Around here there are increasingly fewer and fewer sports choices for kids who aren't looking to be Olympic athletes or seek out college scholarship.  When the kids are 5-8, there are plenty of appropriate level sports teams/leagues where kids can try different things, but much past that age and the sports available are much like described in the OP - very competitive, 4-5 days a week plus weekend events and thousands of dollars a year.

Being fit and healthy is important to our family and I'm trying to keep my boys in activities that not just do that now, but give them good habits for a lifetime.  Neither of them is ever going to be a collegiate athlete or Olympian and it would be fantastic to have some good sport club options where they play or practice 3 times a week and it's as much an enjoyment and social thing as hard core drills. 

Good example is swimming.  My son who just turned 9 has always loved being on the swim team.  Ages 5-8 have great programs where they swim the entire hour and it's broken into some laps, drills and games.  So the kids learn the strokes and their cardiovascular endurance is amazing, but it's not hard core and there are only fun meets (optional) every other month or so.  It's been fantastic, he's become a great swimmer and just loves it... has zero interest in ever competing, though.  For example, he came home a few months ago and explained that there was a new boy in swimming that was sad that he was the slowest, so my son had been swimming much slower to allow the new boy to have company and not feel behind.  Unfortunately, now that DS turned 9, the only swim teams available are very competitive.  His skill level is acceptable and he qualifies, but he isn't interested in swimming 4 days a week and only doing drills and laps and having meets every weekend.  Not sure what we're going to do.

With all the issues this country is having with obesity, surely there's a market for social sports for kids to teach them fitness is fun and also something they can do all their life, even if they're not going to the Olympics.

Sorry to hijack, but this is a pet peeve of mine.

We have the same problems in our area.  This is especially frustrating for me re my autistic son.  He is extremely weak and uncoordinated and I'd love to have him do a sport to help him get stronger, but there just isn't anything that would take him without the other kids getting pissed "he made them lose." 

I agree that there should be a venue to engage in sports just for the sheer joy of it.  There used to be this amazing concept called "go out and play" that fed the need, but that option is no longer exercised.     Perish the thought that kids could actually aquire any skills without direct adult interference  oversight.


Formerly SK,

There is a class for disabled students (of all ages and abilities) at the karate studio where DH and my kids study and teach.  They have all taught that class at one time or another, although DH more frequently.    

Perhaps this would be something your DS would enoy and could do?  We first became involved in karate as physical therapy for DS after he broke his leg very badly and still couldn't walk properly a year later.  Karate really addressed balance, coordination and strenght.  But most importantly, it's individual, and yet part of a community.  Karate also teaches self confidence. 

Just a thought.         

[Phoenix84]

Hmmm, I don't ever recall on any job I've ever applied for or seen that your athletic history was a factor.  It's never even come up in any job interview I've ever had.  Most hiring managers as far as I can tell don't give a rat's ass if you were an athlete in college.  Honestly, if someone brought it up for a professional job, I would think it would be weird.  It'd be like they couldn't find anything more relevent to sell themselves on, so I'd be suspicious. 

[milee]

Aug 20, 2013 22:19:57 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Aug 20, 2013 8:53:35 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

I agree that there should be a venue to engage in sports just for the sheer joy of it.  There used to be this amazing concept called "go out and play" that fed the need, but that option is no longer exercised.     Perish the thought that kids could actually aquire any skills without direct adult interference  oversight.

Go out and play still is an amazing thing, it just doesn't always provide some of the sports kids are interested in.  We don't have a pool and there are less than 12 kids total in a mile radius (and they're of varying ages), so not enough to form pick up sports teams. 

The kids do go out and play, but we'd need some sports groups if they want to swim in a pool or play on a team.