Fox Reporter Shows Massive Anti-Islamic Bias

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 18:15:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

My thoughts are that if there is an all powerful being, the way we worship him is completely cultural. Whether its God, Yahway, Allah, or the Great Creator, he is the reason we are here and it doesn't matter what we call him or how we worship. The ways of worship were created by man as a form of social control. 

and there a lot of levels of reason why all of this happens the way it does.

like you, i find it fascinating.

[mmhmm]

Jul 30, 2013 18:04:14 GMT -5 AGB said:

Jul 30, 2013 17:55:08 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

To the Jewish people, the Muslims, and the Christians, there is but one God.  Therefore, they must be worshipping the same one, I'd think.  That's the only one there is.

I don't worship allah anymore than a muslim worships the Christian God. They are not the same.

In English, an equine is a horse.  In Arabic, it's hisan.  Still an equine.  Just a different word for the same thing, as it would be in most languages.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:18:55 GMT -5 AGB said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:11:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you're cherry picking.  but whatever.  i have no horse in this race.  i don't believe in a wrathful God, which puts me way off axis for both of these religions, in a doctrinal sense.

It was the link you provided, I honestly don't see what I missed in it that would make it cherry picking.

i would have cited the page, but it is frowned upon here.  so i didn't.  and i won't.  the page is full of contradiction.  it is intended as a primer to the subject, so it shows BOTH VIEWS.  i would direct you to the first cited passage, from the Koran, and to the statement made about/by George W Bush.

But I don't wish to cause any more trouble than I already have, so I thank you for your thoughts and your time.

yw

[mmhmm]

Jul 30, 2013 18:39:59 GMT -5 AGB said:

Jul 30, 2013 18:24:34 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

not when you figure in that all of those books are man's interpretation of God's word. kind of like the game "telephone" there is quite a bit lost in translation.

And I can follow the logic, but I have trouble with where this leads me... that an all powerful God is not capable of keeping his message straight. There are major differences, entirely separate paths, it's not like they disagree whether it was the virgin Mary or the virgin Martha.

I'd say, it's not God who can't keep his message straight.  I'd say it's man who can't.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:23:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 30, 2013 18:04:14 GMT -5 AGB said:

I don't worship allah anymore than a muslim worships the Christian God. They are not the same.

In English, an equine is a horse.  In Arabic, it's hisan.  Still an equine.  Just a different word for the same thing, as it would be in most languages.

i think i agree with you on this, mmhmm.  if you believe in "one God", that necessarily constrains that "being" to be one thing.  if there is only one, then there can be no other.  so whether you and i disagree on what that one thing is, it is immaterial.  since it is one thing, there IS only ONE of it, and therefore, our disagreements are either about US, or about NOTHING.

jmho

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 30, 2013 19:14:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:13:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I don't know. That would require me to conjecture about another poster's thoughts, and I've been scolded elsewhere for doing that.

really?  i kinda figured it was purely personal, and for academic purposes.

but let me phrase it differently:

in the absence of scripture, do you think that we Christians pray to the same God as Muslims and Jews?

In the sense that there is one Being, and he is aware of everyone's prayers, yes. But the same could be said for men who pray to idols, or to the gods of some obscure polytheistic religion. There is a great deal more to prayer than simply knowing "something" created us, and praying to it.

The arguments to support that claim are all scriptural. They likely won't mean anything to you and aren't worth debating here.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:18:26 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:07:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

that is a trans-religious principle.  it extends to atheists and non-western religions as well.  it is the most widely accepted philosophical principle out there, if memory serves.

exactly. as I said, I don't believe in that all-powerful God. that doesn't mean I live my life without general guidelines on how to conduct myself.

Kant hypothesized that a normative ethical system can be divined without doctrine- just by looking at the rational interests of the individual and the community in which he or she exists.  i think he is absolutely right.

his guiding principle is a form of the Golden Rule.

[mmhmm]

I actually had this very conversation with my Iranian English students, dj.  They, too, were able to see if there was but one God, as their Qur'an told them, it must be the same God for the Christians.  We didn't get into those of the Jewish faith.  I figured that might be a bit much for them to chew. 

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:27:58 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:14:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

really?  i kinda figured it was purely personal, and for academic purposes.

but let me phrase it differently:

in the absence of scripture, do you think that we Christians pray to the same God as Muslims and Jews?

In the sense that there is one Being, and he is aware of everyone's prayers, yes. But the same could be said for men who pray to idols, or to the gods of some obscure polytheistic religion. There is a great deal more to prayer than simply knowing "something" created us, and praying to it.

The arguments to support that claim are all scriptural. They likely won't mean anything to you and aren't worth debating here.

so, i think your answer is that "God doesn't exist without scripture".  please correct me if i am wrong.  keep it simple, please.  "you are right" or "you are wrong" would be best.  i will accept either answer without further discussion.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:29:50 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I actually had this very conversation with my Iranian English students, dj.  They, too, were able to see if there was but one God, as their Qur'an told them, it must be the same God for the Christians.  We didn't get into those of the Jewish faith.  I figured that might be a bit much for them to chew. 

that is a "big God" concept.  in a sense it makes it rather easy to understand, because it is assumed to be beyond our understanding. 

[mmhmm]

Jul 30, 2013 19:31:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:29:50 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I actually had this very conversation with my Iranian English students, dj.  They, too, were able to see if there was but one God, as their Qur'an told them, it must be the same God for the Christians.  We didn't get into those of the Jewish faith.  I figured that might be a bit much for them to chew. 

that is a "big God" concept.  in a sense it makes it rather easy to understand, because it is assumed to be beyond our understanding. 

It was easier for them to understand, and they actually became quite enthusiastic about the discussion over a number of days.  I had some interesting, challenging, and downright fascinating discussions with those young men.  I think of them often, and wonder what has become of them.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:34:55 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:31:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

that is a "big God" concept.  in a sense it makes it rather easy to understand, because it is assumed to be beyond our understanding. 

It was easier for them to understand, and they actually became quite enthusiastic about the discussion over a number of days.  I had some interesting, challenging, and downright fascinating discussions with those young men.  I think of them often, and wonder what has become of them.

what does the FUTURE look like in that part of the world?  the upper class has access to pretty much everything- but where do they GO with it in this world?

[mmhmm]

Jul 30, 2013 19:39:06 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:34:55 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

It was easier for them to understand, and they actually became quite enthusiastic about the discussion over a number of days.  I had some interesting, challenging, and downright fascinating discussions with those young men.  I think of them often, and wonder what has become of them.

what does the FUTURE look like in that part of the world?  the upper class has access to pretty much everything- but where do they GO with it in this world?

I wish I knew, dj.  I taught those kids in 1978, just before the lid blew off and the Shiites hit the fan.  Their viewpoint was so narrow due to their upbringing and the lack of education in anything other than the teachings of the Qur'an, they really didn't know what they wanted, or why they wanted it.  Now, I imagine, it's even worse.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:43:39 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:39:06 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what does the FUTURE look like in that part of the world?  the upper class has access to pretty much everything- but where do they GO with it in this world?

I wish I knew, dj.  I taught those kids in 1978, just before the lid blew off and the Shiites hit the fan.  Their viewpoint was so narrow due to their upbringing and the lack of education in anything other than the teachings of the Qur'an, they really didn't know what they wanted, or why they wanted it.  Now, I imagine, it's even worse.

i was hoping for something that shattered my preconceived notions about that part of the world.

how disappointing. 

[djAdvocate]

(that was a curious detour.  it was not really off topic)

[mmhmm]

Jul 30, 2013 19:45:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:43:39 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I wish I knew, dj.  I taught those kids in 1978, just before the lid blew off and the Shiites hit the fan.  Their viewpoint was so narrow due to their upbringing and the lack of education in anything other than the teachings of the Qur'an, they really didn't know what they wanted, or why they wanted it.  Now, I imagine, it's even worse.

i was hoping for something that shattered my preconceived notions about that part of the world.

how disappointing. 

I wish I could give it to you, dj.  I really do.  I spent a lot of years in the Middle East and came to care about the people there.  I wish things could be different for them.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 30, 2013 19:30:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:27:58 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

In the sense that there is one Being, and he is aware of everyone's prayers, yes. But the same could be said for men who pray to idols, or to the gods of some obscure polytheistic religion. There is a great deal more to prayer than simply knowing "something" created us, and praying to it.

The arguments to support that claim are all scriptural. They likely won't mean anything to you and aren't worth debating here.

so, i think your answer is that "god doesn't exist without scripture".  please correct me if i am wrong.  keep it simple, please.  "you are right" or "you are wrong" would be best.  i will accept either answer without further discussion.

The short answer is "You are right, in a sense."

God reveals Himself to us through his Word in the scriptures. Scripture tells us who He is, what He expects of us, what His relationship to us is, how we are to conduct ourselves, and the purpose of our existence.

If you didn't post on this board but we nevertheless somehow knew that you existed, AGB might say "DJ believes that drug laws are too stiff, and he likes pandas.", and chiver might say, "No. DJ believes that drug laws aren't stiff enough, and he likes chinchillas."  And mmhmm would come around and say, "Now now, people. No need for all the fuss. You're all talking about the same DJ."

Obviously you'd exist whether or not you posted on the board. But it's very reasonable to claim that AGB is talking about a "different" DJ (in terms of all that defines you to us) from chiver. And it's also reasonable to claim that AGB and chiver can't both be right. Either one of them is wrong or they both are.

[Opti]

And what they heard I'd completely dependent on their personal experiences and motivation for hearing the message.


Yeah That. (Can't like posts recently. )

[chiver78]

Jul 30, 2013 19:48:26 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:45:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i was hoping for something that shattered my preconceived notions about that part of the world.

how disappointing. 

I wish I could give it to you, dj.  I really do.  I spent a lot of years in the Middle East and came to care about the people there.  I wish things could be different for them.

have you read "A Thousand Splendid Suns" yet, mmhmm? I'd love to know how your experiences in that area of the world relate to the fictional Afghan neighborhoods described by Khaled Hosseini. I had a hard time with this book because one of the main female characters is a young woman born in 1978, like me.....and her life is vastly different than the one I've lived so far.

/end thread hijack.

[mmhmm]

I haven't read it yet, chiver.  It's on my "to do" list.  Frankly,  I didn't see many of the young Iranian women.  All the students at the University were male and the young girls were kept pretty close to home.  Those I did meet through neighbors and acquaintances did, indeed, live a very different life than that experienced by our youngsters, male or female.

[tallguy]

Yeah, um I am a CHRISTian,

You DO have a gift for unintentional humor.  Over the years there have been a number of accusations leveled against you.  I myself am and have been perfectly happy to do many of them.  But the one thing of which I can be absolutely certain is that NOBODY who has ever read you will EVER accuse you of being a Christian.

I do have a problem with liars, though. And this author seems allergic to the truth- especially the truth about himself.

As do I.  Hypocrites too.  And may I note for the record the supreme irony in you posting the final claim?

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 19:48:54 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:30:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so, i think your answer is that "god doesn't exist without scripture".  please correct me if i am wrong.  keep it simple, please.  "you are right" or "you are wrong" would be best.  i will accept either answer without further discussion.

The short answer is "You are right, in a sense."

God reveals Himself to us through his Word in the scriptures. Scripture tells us who He is, what He expects of us, what His relationship to us is, how we are to conduct ourselves, and the purpose of our existence.

If you didn't post on this board but we nevertheless somehow knew that you existed, AGB might say "DJ believes that drug laws are too stiff, and he likes pandas.", and chiver might say, "No. DJ believes that drug laws aren't stiff enough, and he likes chinchillas."  And mmhmm would come around and say, "Now now, people. No need for all the fuss. You're all talking about the same DJ."

Obviously you'd exist whether or not you posted on the board. But it's very reasonable to claim that AGB is talking about a "different" DJ (in terms of all that defines you to us) from chiver. And it's also reasonable to claim that AGB and chiver can't both be right. Either one of them is wrong or they both are.

but my point was, they would NOT be talking about different DJ's- just their different perspectives on DJ.  i, the one and only DJ, would remain unchanged, despite their perspectives- and quite likely different than ANY perspective that could be obtained other than that of the one true God. 

[EVT1]

Jul 30, 2013 19:23:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 30, 2013 18:04:14 GMT -5 AGB said:

I don't worship allah anymore than a muslim worships the Christian God. They are not the same.

In English, an equine is a horse.  In Arabic, it's hisan.  Still an equine.  Just a different word for the same thing, as it would be in most languages.

Yes they are- same God different name- Allah, Yahweh, Elohim- whatever.  The Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham.  They of course all have their opinions as to the rest of it- but it all started with the same God and deviated from there.  Muslims are somewhere between the Jews and the Christians with their beliefs- for example they buy the virgin birth/Jesus as a great prophet-vs the Jews don't buy any of it.  
 

 

[Deleted]

I'm not going to comment too much on the rest of it, but I just found it funny that some of the posts are kind of minimizing the differences between religions by saying "Hey, it's the same God but they just have different beliefs and stuff".  Yeah, and that's why there are different religions...because they have different beliefs.  It's like telling a gearhead that all cars are the same because they have 4 wheels and an engine.  

[EVT1]

Jul 30, 2013 21:19:08 GMT -5 @davebo said:

I'm not going to comment too much on the rest of it, but I just found it funny that some of the posts are kind of minimizing the differences between religions by saying "Hey, it's the same God but they just have different beliefs and stuff".  Yeah, and that's why there are different religions...because they have different beliefs.  It's like telling a gearhead that all cars are the same because they have 4 wheels and an engine.  

They are more like different sects than different religions- a truly different religion would be Buddhism or Scientology .

And- all cars are basically the same-  they are not jets or tanks. 


They have their different beliefs- hence all of the fighting- but they are not fighting over which God it is- they are fighting over who has the correct interpretations and true prophets, etc.- which makes it all the more stupid to fight over IMO. 

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 21:19:08 GMT -5 @davebo said:

I'm not going to comment too much on the rest of it, but I just found it funny that some of the posts are kind of minimizing the differences between religions by saying "Hey, it's the same God but they just have different beliefs and stuff".   

sorry, no.  if that is what you THOUGHT, then you missed the point, as far as i am concerned.  my point is this:
 
if you buy the "one God" hypothesis, then there is...well, ONE GOD.
and if that is true, then there is only ONE objective truth about that God.

now, this presents an interesting dilemma.  because as you RIGHTLY point out, there are many different religions that have DIFFERING CONCEPTIONS of that ONE God.  there are only three ways that i can think of to reconcile that OBJECTIVE FACT.  the first is that they are all wrong in the ways which they contradict one another.  the second is that one is right, and all the others are wrong (which is what the "true believers" of all religions believe).  and the final way to reconcile it is that the hypothesis is wrong.  looking back at those three sentences, you will notice that wrong appears three times, and right only appears once.  therefore, if i were operating in a complete vacuum, in the absence of all evidence, coming at this as a novice, my conception of God is probably wrong.

it would be nice if most people worked from THAT assumption and found what they have in common.  but it would appears that we are more about differences than similarities, as a race.  a serious failing, imo.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 30, 2013 21:48:53 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jul 30, 2013 21:19:08 GMT -5 @davebo said:

I'm not going to comment too much on the rest of it, but I just found it funny that some of the posts are kind of minimizing the differences between religions by saying "Hey, it's the same God but they just have different beliefs and stuff".  Yeah, and that's why there are different religions...because they have different beliefs.  It's like telling a gearhead that all cars are the same because they have 4 wheels and an engine.  

They are more like different sects than different religions- a truly different religion would be Buddhism or Scientology .

And- all cars are basically the same-  they are not jets or tanks. 


They have their different beliefs- hence all of the fighting- but they are not fighting over which God it is- they are fighting over who has the correct interpretations and true prophets, etc.- which makes it all the more stupid to fight over IMO. 

this is precisely it.  but it is even more surreal than that: we (the One God folks) are arguing over a glass of water, or a mole of Argon.  something that is just ONE thing.  it is really f-ing bizarre and small-minded, imo.  and as i sit here tonight, i can only ask one question: WHY?

[Angel!]

Jul 30, 2013 21:11:51 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jul 30, 2013 19:23:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

In English, an equine is a horse.  In Arabic, it's hisan.  Still an equine.  Just a different word for the same thing, as it would be in most languages.

Yes they are- same God different name- Allah, Yahweh, Elohim- whatever.  The Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham.  They of course all have their opinions as to the rest of it- but it all started with the same God and deviated from there.  Muslims are somewhere between the Jews and the Christians with their beliefs- for example they buy the virgin birth/Jesus as a great prophet-vs the Jews don't buy any of it.  
 

That is what I was always taught.  I am actually surprised because I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worshipped the same god.  I will admit I never really researched the topic because I learned it so young it was just a fact in my mind.

[billisonboard]

notmsnmoney.proboards.com/board/41/religious-discussion

[mmhmm]

General discussion as it relates to this thread is fine, billis.  It's scripture quoting and proselytizing we need to avoid.

mmhmm, Administrator