justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 11:01:55 GMT -5
too bad that women dont believe this....since they are the ones "TRYING" to get noticedARGH!!!!!!!!!! And how do you KNOW that? I have a friend with huge boobs, short of her wearing a turtle neck there's not a damn thing she can do to really cover them up. And honestly, you still notice em even in the turtle neck. She tries her best, but when it's 95* and 95% humidity out should she really have to wear a turtle neck so guys won't stare at her? Or me, I'm 5'10. Most women's clothing is made for someone around the height of 5'4. Clothing that looks normal on someone 5'4 or 5'6 is ridiculously short on me, but the only way for me to get shorts that are "long enough" for me is shopping in the guys department. No thank you. I have no control over the fact that I have 3ft of legs sticking out under the shorts making ANYTHING I wear look short. Or that my torso is longer than a normal woman so it's damn hard to find dresses that cover my ass. While I am well aware of how short things are, I don't have much alternative unless I want to wear pants when it's 95* out and 95% humidity so I wear them so I can be comfortable not so guys will stare at my legs. This assumption that anytime a female wears something that is in anyway provocative to random Joe Schmoo she's doing it BECAUSE she wants a reaction and wants to get noticed is a problem. **Full disclosure, sometimes I do wear things that are more sexy to try and get noticed, but even then a girl wearing the exact same dress in the exact same size but is 5'4 is going to be noticed way less than me on the mere fact of my long legs. so sometimes you want to be noticed, and sometimes you dont and your friend does whatever she can to minimize the effects of her boobs i understand.... i am not "blaming" the girl....i said the TSA guy was in the wrong...i think everyone has said the same thing but i am saying that women do provoke comments based on what they wear, how they wear it, and where they wear it when a woman walking down the street causes a fender bender because she bends down to check the strap on her sandal, the dress MAY be a little short when you walk through a mall and EVERY guy stares at your cleavage, maybe you could have worn something a little different if women are blaming men for comments on stuff like that....we have a LONG way to go No, you don't. My friend shouldn't have to forgo certain tops because she has cleavage in it and someone with smaller boobs wouldn't. I shouldn't have to wear pants more often than shorts because my legs make them look shorter than they really are. (As long as the socially accepted bits are covered up.) We do that because it gets old and fucking annoying having guys oggle you and make comments when you are WEARING REGULAR CLOTHES. As much as some women wear certain clothes to get men to look, there's probably a lot more women out there wearing certain clothes to try and get men NOT to look. It's all about stupid men. I am tired of wearing or not wearing things to try and control strange mens reactions to me. If men are blaming women for crashing their cars and not being able to control where his sight goes - we have a LONG way to go.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 11:01:57 GMT -5
The danger to situations like this is that a disappropriate punishment is handed out because of hyperbole. I think a nice turn to this thread, since everything else has been beaten to death, is what should the punishment be for the TSA officer? I'll start: Write up.. No suspension or loss of pay. If he continues to do similar things, then further action required. I think he should be written up and required to attend classes on PC behavior.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 11:03:21 GMT -5
Ok, then lets go back to the girl in the photo. Frankly, that is the type of outfit one might wear sitting around the house. I'm assuming it is comfortable. The shirts look like it. Who knows about the pants. How is that not dressing for oneself?
Are you saying that no one ever dresses for comfort. Not once. Or dresses because those are the clothes they have available? That every outfit is chosen to get people to notice you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 11:05:37 GMT -5
People should be required to dress respectfully when flying. In the good old days that's how it was.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 11:05:57 GMT -5
Yes, they ARE the root of all evil You know, there are those people, called tailors that can probably make clothes that would fit you. And if you are so damn annoyed by all the stupid men looking at you, stop pay attention to them and may be you won't be so annoyed.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 11:07:44 GMT -5
The danger to situations like this is that a disappropriate punishment is handed out because of hyperbole. I think a nice turn to this thread, since everything else has been beaten to death, is what should the punishment be for the TSA officer? I'll start: Write up.. No suspension or loss of pay. If he continues to do similar things, then further action required. I think he should be written up and required to attend classes on PC behavior. I don't think he should be suspended or loss of pay, I do think it needs to go in his file and if he is a repeat offender than he will lose his job soon enough. My BIL has had a couple incidents that he was written up for sexual harassment. His versions of them make them sound like BS. But frankly, now that he has had at least 2 sexual harassement encounters and fired for just plain harassement, it becomes a where there is smoke there is fire thing for me. That you know, his spin is all nice and maybe these women are being overly sensitive, but frankly he needs to learn that what he is doing isn't appropriate. These happened at different jobs so it isn't like the second job knew about the incident at the first job.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 8, 2013 11:11:28 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 11:12:24 GMT -5
No, you don't. My friend shouldn't have to forgo certain tops because she has cleavage in it and someone with smaller boobs wouldn't. I shouldn't have to wear pants more often than shorts because my legs make them look shorter than they really are. (As long as the socially accepted bits are covered up.) We do that because it gets old and fucking annoying having guys oggle you and make comments when you are WEARING REGULAR CLOTHES.
As much as some women wear certain clothes to get men to look, there's probably a lot more women out there wearing certain clothes to try and get men NOT to look. It's all about stupid men. I am tired of wearing or not wearing things to try and control strange mens reactions to me.
If men are blaming women for crashing their cars and not being able to control where his sight goes - we have a LONG way to go.
you are free of course to wear anything you like
and men are free to ogle you doing so
sorry....but it is the truth
every guy on this site knows it.....we can try to be discreet.....but we will look
and some will make comments....
should they, no
but will they, yes
you can wish this will change all you want....but good luck with that
as far as punishment to the TSA guy...
as i wrote earlier....write him up for the comment
make it clear that this is not part of his duties, and another episode will not be tolerated
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 11:15:06 GMT -5
Ok, then lets go back to the girl in the photo. Frankly, that is the type of outfit one might wear sitting around the house. I'm assuming it is comfortable. The shirts look like it. Who knows about the pants. How is that not dressing for oneself? Are you saying that no one ever dresses for comfort. Not once. Or dresses because those are the clothes they have available? That every outfit is chosen to get people to notice you? Plenty of people dress for comfort. Heck, I am still wearing maternity shirts and my youngest is almost 2. I am saying that when a person dresses a certain way that makes others look, THAT's usually is not for comfort. I don't know what TSA guy was referring to - my guess is that she wasn't wearing overshirt. Her pants are way too tight, and her cammy is way too low, I just can't imagine that she would cover that up with an over sized shirt. But again, that's just my guess. And even is she was, may be he was referring to her showing stomach. I don't know. And I can only speak for myself, but to me - that outfit doesn't look comfortable, bc if I was wearing, I would be thinking of 1) if I bend will my cammy show my bra/boobs. 2) if I reach for something, will it ride up and more of my mid section will be exposed. To me - that's not comfort, but showing off parts of my body.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 11:22:47 GMT -5
Yes, they ARE the root of all evil You know, there are those people, called tailors that can probably make clothes that would fit you. And if you are so damn annoyed by all the stupid men looking at you, stop pay attention to them and may be you won't be so annoyed. I never said they are the root of all evil, but it's usually men that comment or stare with regard to what I'm wearing. Maybe a women comments once or twice, but the men making rude comments regarding what I'm wearing far outweighs women. Why would it "fit me better"? I'm not popping out of the seams, I buy clothes the sizes that fit me. And the only way to get clothes to "fit me correctly" is to have them completely made from scratch. I can't take a dress into a tailor and ask them to add five inches or bring in a pair of shorts and ask for a longer inseam if I wanted. You can't add fabric, I'd have to have an entirely custom made wardrobe. I don't have the money for that. And thank you very much for telling me to ignore them. I do and wear what I want to wear and what's appropriate for where I'm going. It's not something that invades my life, but it is something that crosses my mind more than I'd like.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 11:28:04 GMT -5
You've never lounged around the house is a cami, hoody/flannel and yoga pants? That is what someone (you maybe) said. That you never see people who are dressed provocatively lounge around the house that way. I do it all the time. Even with my D cups boobs not in a bra.
The clothes I wear to go running in aren't meant for someone to look at, they are for comfort, but you know short shorts and a tank top, must be for someone to look at me. The guys I ran track with in college often ran in just running shorts (which are short, even for guys) and shoes. No shirt. Somehow, them in just their shorts and us girls in buns and sports bras never made inappropriate comments to each other and we trained together. Imagine that a bunch of 18-23 year olds controlling themselves.
It isn't always about having other people look. I've dressed for other people to look at me and I've dressed for comfort. I've dressed for my husband. I dress to look a part for my job and some days I try to balance that with comfort which in the summer, sometimes means a skirt just because it is hot out. I've stripped down to my long johns for work, not because I wanted the guys to "look" at me but because I didn't want my jeans to get wet when I waded into the creek. I've worn shorts to work when I worked road construction because it was fucking hot standing in the middle of a highway flagging traffic.
My body is just that, a body. It is a means to get me where I am going. My experience running track showed me that you can not care. You can have a body exposed and not tempt people. You don't always wear something revealing to show off or get attention.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 11:28:30 GMT -5
You sound very angry that people look at you. And you sound very angry that clothes don't fit you well.
And actually, you can ask a tailor to add inches to your shorts or increase inseam - that's what tailors do
And yes, you can also have a custom made wardrobe.
Whether you want to do all that or not, obviously, it's up to you. But whether people look or comment - that's up to them, isn't it?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 8, 2013 11:33:30 GMT -5
I know exactly what the term is and I still don't believe it fits this situation with the information we have because we don't know what the TSA officers thought process was. The intent is critical to determining it. I can't speak for anyone else who was using the term, but I was using it in the context of the responses of YMOT posters who have focused on what the girl was wearing/doing when deciding whether the TSA agent was justified in his actions. I never used it with respect to the TSA agent's actions themselves. Exactly. Most of my points weren't directed at the actions of the TSA agent, but instead of the people on the board (and I'm one) and society that thinks it's acceptable to hold a victim and/or her actions partially responsible for what happens to her in the case of harassment/assault.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 11:46:50 GMT -5
You sound very angry that people look at you. And you sound very angry that clothes don't fit you well. And actually, you can ask a tailor to add inches to your shorts or increase inseam - that's what tailors do And yes, you can also have a custom made wardrobe. Whether you want to do all that or not, obviously, it's up to you. But whether people look or comment - that's up to them, isn't it? Nope, not angry. It pertains to this topic of conversation and it's something I've experienced so I have something to say. I don't go on rampages on topics unrelated about how my clothes are seen as too short with my height - they DO fit me well, I don't wear clothes that don't fit. Haha, no you can't ask them to add inches without it being a patchwork addition to your shorts. Unless the tailor has access to the exact fabric the clothing company used it won't be a perfect match and regardless of that there would be a big seam in your shorts and it would be quite obvious. It's not like letting out the 1/4" seam on jean shorts would make them "long enough" for some people. I accepted my height a long time ago and stopped trying to fight it. I know I can't control people, but it still makes them a rude asshole to comment. ETA: Mutt summed it up nicely a few posts up.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 8, 2013 11:47:13 GMT -5
Apparently women are also responsible for causing car accidents if they happen to be walking nearby on the sidewalk.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 8, 2013 11:51:59 GMT -5
Additionally, women appear to be responsible for what some men do with their eyes and say with their mouths. Who knew?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 11:53:37 GMT -5
Apparently women are also responsible for causing car accidents if they happen to be walking nearby on the sidewalk. Funny story, but my summer internship between my junior and senior year of college. Another female intern and I were surveying and we were walking the sidewalk of a busy street with our equipment. Wear shorts, boots, and orange shirts and this car pulls out of a parking lot and runs right into another car because driver was staring at us. No joke. The guy behind him pulls out and rolls down his window and yells "I saw it all. You all caused an accident". It became the joke of the office the rest of the summer that we caused a car accident. Our boss (whose daughter was just a few years younger than us) was with us at the time and he just shook his head.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 11:56:44 GMT -5
The excuse that sometimes women want to be noticed and sometimes they don't is bull shit. Only a complete idiot doesn't know when a compliment would be welcome and when a derogatory comment wouldn't be. These are skills that people that live in a polite society learn. People that live in a polite society also learn that they don't get to blame their own behaviour on someone else.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 11:59:39 GMT -5
We all have the burden of dressing our own bodies appropriately. Just about everyone has something they shouldn't wear, and styles that look more appropriate. Even those with a perfect body need to dress for their age and the occasion. I don't think it should be a free-for-all in the name of freedom. People should still be expected to have some dignity.
That said - the TSA agent was clearly an out of line prude, as the gal was wearing pants, a t-shirt and a hoodie. Not exactly slut wear. Maybe her yoga pants were showing her cameltoe - they often do. It is gross.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 12:02:09 GMT -5
you can wish this will change all you want....but good luck with that
I wish it would change, but don't take it as a life mission or work myself into a tizzy over it. Hell, I know most guys that yell that stuff out don't have the balls to actually talk to a woman. I also know that if I always say nothing that nothing will ever change. I don't go on crusades telling strangers what to do or say, but will say something to my friends if they say something stupid. Most of the time when we get comments or whistled at my friends and I just shake our heads, sometimes laugh (some guys come up with the stupidest things to call out after you). Only downright crass comments will get a response if it wasn't a "drive-by" comment and to be honest I can't remember the last time I had a comment that warranted a response.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 12:13:02 GMT -5
I know exactly what the term is and I still don't believe it fits this situation with the information we have because we don't know what the TSA officers thought process was. The intent is critical to determining it. The mere fact that he felt it was appropriate to make this comment is the problem. Intent is meaningless. But we don't know what he felt. Has anyone of us ever made a comment that, after the fact, was not really appropriate? I'm guilty of that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 12:16:11 GMT -5
same as the girl who dresses like a prostitute/tramp because she has no respect for herself This sort of stuff makes me sort of sad. I know you're a guy, but women can be really devastating to each other in this regard. I remember back in my small middle school, there was a girl who developed leagues ahead of the rest of us, stunning, very adult body when she was young. She didn't wear crazy things like mini skirts, just sleeveless form fitting tops and capris and sandals and stuff, rather than wearing totally baggy things and trying to hide her new development. We had an assembly, and the principal made a comment about how some girls were dressing inappropriately. I don't remember her exact phrase, but she used the word "disgusting" to describe it, and looked at the girl directly. I remember being really puzzled, and then seeing her turn red and cross her arms over her chest, while other kids looked at her too. My small, redheaded older sis has a similarly curvy and rock'n body. She does hide it under very baggy turtlenecks, and hunches badly to try and hide her chest. It makes me sad that desperately hiding her natural body is viewed as having respect for herself. I'm big and tall, with small boobs, so I can wear shirts that are almost painted on, and it seems it won't be viewed at "slutty." I've just been called a dyke occasionally by guys because of my natural dimensions instead. Honestly, if I had a kid and a TSA agent did something similarly unrelated to their job by looking at a driver's license and saying "you weigh XYZ, lose weight..." I'd go to bat for my kid also. I would hazard that if a guy was told to lose weight by a TSA agent, they'd tell the guy to shove it, and not okay it as someone expressing concern, even if the weight was a legitimate health risk. This is in the same category to me. Not the agent's business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 12:16:12 GMT -5
The TSA agent was mumbling and glaring. He was not full of warm fuzzy feelings. Not the good ones anyway.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 12:17:47 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone else who was using the term, but I was using it in the context of the responses of YMOT posters who have focused on what the girl was wearing/doing when deciding whether the TSA agent was justified in his actions. I never used it with respect to the TSA agent's actions themselves. Exactly. Most of my points weren't directed at the actions of the TSA agent, but instead of the people on the board (and I'm one) and society that thinks it's acceptable to hold a victim and/or her actions partially responsible for what happens to her in the case of harassment/assault. OK, my last comment on this thread, as I don't think I am saying anything new just repeating myself over and over. 1 - If someone looks at you or make a comment to you - you are not a victim 2 - If you have the right to wear it, I have the right to comment or look. Doesn't make you responsible for my comment, doesn't make me wrong for making my comment 3 - the ARE instances where you as a "victim" is partially responsible for my actions (my previous example: ( if you don't take shower for 6 months, I don't want to sit next to you, if that makes you feel bad - oh well) 4 - Causing physical harm is not in the same realm as making comments and looking and it should haven't been brought up. 5 - If we immediately assigned blame based only on "victim's" feelings of being hurt/insulted/harassed - we would cease to exist bc you NEVER know how someone can interpret your comment or look - so, we would have to just stopping talking and looking at each other. So, there has to be some kind of measure stick and unfortunately we've yet to determine what it is. OK, I am done done done. whew
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 8, 2013 12:18:56 GMT -5
And since we are still analyzing the girls outfit for some reason, I wanted to mention that most camis I've seen in the store have built in shelf bras and are not see-through. I think just the ones in the underwear department are the see through ones. I bought several last month at Target that are intended as outer wear, although I just wear them around the house or under other clothes since they are not age appropriate for me in public.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 12:20:05 GMT -5
The mere fact that he felt it was appropriate to make this comment is the problem. Intent is meaningless. But we don't know what he felt. Has anyone of us ever made a comment that, after the fact, was not really appropriate? I'm guilty of that. I'm with you GG. The TSA agent could be a hard-core christian, like my sister, and doesn't like to see anyone showing off too much of their bodies. My nieces weren't allowed to wear 2 piece bathing suits, or low-rise jeans, etc. She wears modest clothes, and thinks everyone else should too. I once was stuck in an airport and saw a man walking around in pajama bottoms and a t-shirt. My flight was cancelled, so I was stuck there for hours, and I was tired, and not really thinking - but I accidentally murmured out "Have some self respect, wear some pants" as I passed him. And then I wondered why I actually said that out loud. I am not sure he heard me because I kept walking in the opposite direction, trying to get away as fast as possible. Even though I stand by my belief that adults shouldn't wear pajamas in public, I had no right to say that to him.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 12:24:21 GMT -5
Really? Never. I know you said you are done., but honestly Lena do you not see how words hurt. Words do cause a problem. You don't see how "Oh did you hear Lena got promoted last week, you know she dresses awfully slutty. Do you think she was sleeping with the boss". Is not a problem.
I think there are lots of cases where people are too sensitive. But this is not one of them. Words can make you a victim.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 8, 2013 12:24:42 GMT -5
5 - If we immediately assigned blame based only on "victim's" feelings of being hurt/insulted/harassed - we would cease to exist bc you NEVER know how someone can interpret your comment or look - so, we would have to just stopping talking and looking at each other. So, there has to be some kind of measure stick and unfortunately we've yet to determine what it is. My employer has a fairly detailed policy that lays out what was acceptable and not acceptable. In a situation where someone made an inappropriate comment, they would have a discussion with their supervisor and then attend a 2 hour sensitivity class on workplace behavior. Most of the time all that is needed was to just familiarize people with the standards, and hopefully that is what will happen in this case as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 12:29:21 GMT -5
If you really feel like analyzing the TSA agent's frame of mind it is probably important to note that the girl was on a trip to visit colleges with a bunch of school mates. Seems the agent was having a hard time (no pun intended) dealing with being surrounded by cute young girls.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 12:29:29 GMT -5
I don't know - it sounds like a pretty innocuous thing. I think if she wasn't 15 years old, this wouldn't be a big deal. If a TSA agent told me I was dressed like a slut, I would likely respond "Well, you make ten bucks an hour."
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