midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 8, 2013 10:17:45 GMT -5
FROM WIKI According to Joyce E. Williams, "the major criticism of rape culture and the feminist theory from which it emanates is the monolithic implication that ultimately all women are victimized by all men."
so according to what i just read, men should never comment on what women/girls are wearing we should pretend that we dont notice.... too bad that women dont believe this....since they are the ones "TRYING" to get noticed maybe all the women should agree on what is ok first, and then just tell us guys what we can or cant say, see, or do That's a criticism of rape culture from Wikipedia. I'm not sure you should accept it as gospel.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 10:18:36 GMT -5
what she was wearing is not immaterial her lack of dress is what provoked the comment was the comment wrong...yes but was the agent trying to be helpful or hurtful? to me, i think he was trying to be helpful....but i could be wrong the comment was wrong...it was not in the scope of his duties sometimes i think the pendulum has swung a little farther than common sense should dictate there was a time when anyone can/would make a comment on someone else's attire, and the comments hopefully would change the behavior of that person now, seems like you just have to flow with whatever people decide to wear, appropriate or not and we have all seen it.....from the kids to the adults.... in malls, restaurants, schools, doesnt seem to matter anymore i am not a prude....at least i dont consider myself one but damn.....really? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Though, if he was really trying to be helpful to the girl - why would he MUMBLE to himself and only state it directly to the girl AFTER she said "excuse me"? As for flowing with whatever people decide to wear - yup, you do. Goes right along with free speech. Unless it's a situation you control, say a work environment or you are the host of an event or owner of a business or your own minor children - you have to flow with whatever people decide to wear as long as it's not obscene according to the law.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:18:57 GMT -5
It means a culture that blames the victim, that suggests the victim invites whatever action the other person takes, be it comment or copulation, because of how she dresses, acts, etc. the idea that if you choose to dress a certain way, you provoke men, and are asking for, and should just take, whatever you get...
It's the idea that the girl should be scrutinized, and not the man. That she should somehow be the one responsible for stopping harassment and assault...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 10:19:25 GMT -5
I must be the only one who thinks that it's crazy to think that one's actions will have no effect on other's actions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:21:46 GMT -5
Do you think one's actions JUSTIFY other's actions? Do you think it gives them the RIGHT to act ?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 8, 2013 10:23:33 GMT -5
I must be the only one who thinks that it's crazy to think that one's actions will have no effect on other's actions. So if your younger kid calls your older kid a dummy, and the older kid responds by punching him in the face, you tell your younger kid, "Sorry, you deserved it?" Or do you try to explain that namecalling is bad but that doesn't make hitting OK?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 10:24:16 GMT -5
Do you think one's actions JUSTIFY other's actions? Do you think it gives them the RIGHT to act ? It depends on what it is. In some instances, absolutely. If you decide not to take showers for 6 months, I am absolutely justified not to want to sit next to you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:25:22 GMT -5
It means a culture that blames the victim, that suggests the victim invites whatever action the other person takes, be it comment or copulation, because of how she dresses, acts, etc. the idea that if you choose to dress a certain way, you provoke men, and are asking for, and should just take, whatever you get... It's the idea that the girl should be scrutinized, and not the man. That she should somehow be the one responsible for stopping harassment and assault... And yet, I don't see anyone, even oldtex, saying that the man is blameless.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 10:25:54 GMT -5
I must be the only one who thinks that it's crazy to think that one's actions will have no effect on other's actions. So if your younger kid calls your older kid a dummy, and the older kid responds by punching him in the face, you tell your younger kid, "Sorry, you deserved it?" Or do you try to explain that namecalling is bad but that doesn't make hitting OK? I am not sure if you read this entire thread, but I have repeatedly said that physical harm is a whole another story. ETA: Mid, also, my views on hitting are not very popular either, so this might not have been a good example. Ask me another one
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 10:28:38 GMT -5
too bad that women dont believe this....since they are the ones "TRYING" to get noticed
ARGH!!!!!!!!!!
And how do you KNOW that? I have a friend with huge boobs, short of her wearing a turtle neck there's not a damn thing she can do to really cover them up. And honestly, you still notice em even in the turtle neck. She tries her best, but when it's 95* and 95% humidity out should she really have to wear a turtle neck so guys won't stare at her?
Or me, I'm 5'10. Most women's clothing is made for someone around the height of 5'4. Clothing that looks normal on someone 5'4 or 5'6 is ridiculously short on me, but the only way for me to get shorts that are "long enough" for me is shopping in the guys department. No thank you. I have no control over the fact that I have 3ft of legs sticking out under the shorts making ANYTHING I wear look short. Or that my torso is longer than a normal woman so it's damn hard to find dresses that cover my ass. While I am well aware of how short things are, I don't have much alternative unless I want to wear pants when it's 95* out and 95% humidity so I wear them so I can be comfortable not so guys will stare at my legs.
This assumption that anytime a female wears something that is in anyway provocative to random Joe Schmoo she's doing it BECAUSE she wants a reaction and wants to get noticed is a problem.
**Full disclosure, sometimes I do wear things that are more sexy to try and get noticed, but even then a girl wearing the exact same dress in the exact same size but is 5'4 is going to be noticed way less than me on the mere fact of my long legs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:31:13 GMT -5
No it's not. The idea that the girl provoked the action... That the action is defensible because of what the girl did... Is at the heart of arame culture that places blame on the target. Exactly. It's the same principle that says Trayvon Martin invited bodily harm by wearing a hoodie. If there's a different term that should be used, feel free to suggest one, but it does capture the whole idea that instead of focusing on the perp's actions, we focus on what the victim did to invite/deserve those actions. And now you are calling him a PERP! ha. This story has officially been blown completely out of proportion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:32:01 GMT -5
You choosing to move away from my stinky form is you choosing to move your body... Always your choice. I'm talking action hints the person you find stinky... Are you justified in harassing or assaulting the stinky one?
Words can be actions in and of themselves. When you get away with calling someone less, verbally berating them as less, then it becomes all that much easier to physically treat them as less...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 8, 2013 10:33:32 GMT -5
So if your younger kid calls your older kid a dummy, and the older kid responds by punching him in the face, you tell your younger kid, "Sorry, you deserved it?" Or do you try to explain that namecalling is bad but that doesn't make hitting OK? I am not sure if you read this entire thread, but I have repeatedly said that physical harm is a whole another story. ETA: Mid, also, my views on hitting are not very popular either, so this might not have been a good example. Ask me another one I think we agree on more than we disagree... But I would expand the physical harm category when you're dealing with someone in a position of authority. Milee's police officer example is probably a better analogy - although he never physically touched her, he still caused fear/emotional distress with his inappropriate comments. If it were some random guy on the street, she probably would've said "F you" and walked off - but you don't have that kind of freedom with a cop (or a TSA officer). And while I don't think that comments rise to the level of physical contact or harm, the effect can often be similar.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:35:06 GMT -5
So if a 50 year old female TSA officer said the same thing - she must have been brainwashed by males to "perpatrate" the rape culture at the expense of her sisters?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 8, 2013 10:35:34 GMT -5
Exactly. It's the same principle that says Trayvon Martin invited bodily harm by wearing a hoodie. If there's a different term that should be used, feel free to suggest one, but it does capture the whole idea that instead of focusing on the perp's actions, we focus on what the victim did to invite/deserve those actions. And now you are calling him a PERP! ha. This story has officially been blown completely out of proportion. Calling whom a perp? I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, but the general principle of victim-blaming.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:37:30 GMT -5
MMC. Women certainly can perpetuate a rape culture. Is that the admission you were searching for?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 10:38:24 GMT -5
And yet, I don't see anyone, even oldtex, saying that the man is blameless. Exactly, In 6 pages, every post that addresses the TSA agent's comment (mine included) stated that he was inappropriate/unprofessional. From the OP's link she began a rapid-fire series of texts to him and his wife by declaring, "I'm furious!" and adding, about the TSA
officer, "He was so rude and hostile. He made me feel like a slut." This young woman doesn't sound like an intimidated child. She came across to me like an entitled Daddy's girl. And I still doubt she was dressed like in the photo - the photo doesn't even look like it was taken in an airport. I think this is a tempest in a teapot.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 10:39:21 GMT -5
Mid, I agree about authority thing. But 1 - I don't consider TSA people that much of an authority and 2 - my comment still stands - you can't expect to have an "action" without others having a "reaction". that's pretty much how the world works. So, I think this whole idea of "rape culture" is completely asinine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:40:45 GMT -5
MMC. Women certainly can perpetuate a rape culture. Is that the admission you were searching for? Not at all. The correct answer is neither has anything to do with rape culture. That is the admission I was searching for.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:43:01 GMT -5
I do not give a flying fig how she was dressed. The TSA agent had no right to be hostile and make her feel like a slut. NOT his business. The blame lies with him, not partially with him, with him. Assigning any blame to her and her dress for HIS comment perpetuates the idea that a female is culpable in hostilities against her based on her choice of clothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:45:50 GMT -5
If you are going to use that term this liberally, almost all men could have it applied to them at one time or another. It is a sensational term though. MMC - this could be the root of the crossed communication on this thread with you. You don't know what the definition of this term is. It is a social construct in the literature of sociology and women's studies and has an actual definition most of us are using. I don't particularly like the term they choose for it, because rape is the worst-case scenario of the phenomenon and not the most prevalent form of negative actions. And on some level, the sensational nature of the term, as you phrase it, causes a complete rejection by a part of the population. However, it is the term and those of us citing it are using it within the definition. The majority of behavioral manifestations in our culture do not involve rape - however they are under this broad umbrella of behavior that are- somewhat - unfortunately termed. I know exactly what the term is and I still don't believe it fits this situation with the information we have because we don't know what the TSA officers thought process was. The intent is critical to determining it.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 8, 2013 10:46:33 GMT -5
Mid, I agree about authority thing. But 1 - I don't consider TSA people that much of an authority and 2 - my comment still stands - you can't expect to have an "action" without others having a "reaction". that's pretty much how the world works. So, I think this whole idea of "rape culture" is completely asinine. How does someone who has the legal right to invasively search your person not an authority? Someone that also has the right to search through your personal belongings? The right to detain you and prevent you from boarding the flight? To me those are very much powers an authority will have. Granted a TSA agent should be able to detain you without good cause, but that doesn't erase the fact that they can.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:47:39 GMT -5
I do not give a flying fig how she was dressed. The TSA agent had no right to be hostile and make her feel like a slut. NOT his business. The blame lies with him, not partially with him, with him. Assigning any blame to her and her dress for HIS comment perpetuates the idea that a female is culpable in hostilities against her based on her choice of clothing. yes yes.. And if the TSA officers tells a black kid to pull his pants up so his underwear isn't showing, he is a racist.. We hear this same BS all the time.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 8, 2013 10:48:42 GMT -5
MMC - this could be the root of the crossed communication on this thread with you. You don't know what the definition of this term is. It is a social construct in the literature of sociology and women's studies and has an actual definition most of us are using. I don't particularly like the term they choose for it, because rape is the worst-case scenario of the phenomenon and not the most prevalent form of negative actions. And on some level, the sensational nature of the term, as you phrase it, causes a complete rejection by a part of the population. However, it is the term and those of us citing it are using it within the definition. The majority of behavioral manifestations in our culture do not involve rape - however they are under this broad umbrella of behavior that are- somewhat - unfortunately termed. I know exactly what the term is and I still don't believe it fits this situation with the information we have because we don't know what the TSA officers thought process was. The intent is critical to determining it. I can't speak for anyone else who was using the term, but I was using it in the context of the responses of YMOT posters who have focused on what the girl was wearing/doing when deciding whether the TSA agent was justified in his actions. I never used it with respect to the TSA agent's actions themselves.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 10:49:49 GMT -5
This is why I think the guy is in the wrong:
1. He glared. Sorry, a look of dismay, shock whatever, but you don't glare if you are being helpful. 2. He mumbled. If you are trying to be helpful, like oldtex seems to think he was, then you don't mumble. You very politely say "excuse me, miss, you your dress is not appropriate for your age. 3. He mentions her age. Frankly that is the kicker to me. That is the one that makes me think he is pissed that he is attracted to her at her age. Do you really think she made up all 3 of those details - the glaring, the mumbling, and the hostile tone. Is this really a father going ballistic? Finally to the poster that said her daughter has those camis and they are entirely see through. Really? Only one company makes camis and they are all see through? I had no idea. Too bad I have several from several different companies. Some are more see through than others. While I appreciate the "it takes a village" mentality and use it to some extent, the TSA agent has a very limited scope in my village. His job is not to make judgement calls about my child's dress. If you want to go out there and just randomly make comments about my children and say well it takes a village, get over yourself. If you are my parents, my friends, my family, my church members, then yes you have a say to some extent about my children. But at the end of the day, I am the parent, not you and if you don't know me or my children, it is not your call to make.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 10:50:04 GMT -5
I do not give a flying fig how she was dressed. The TSA agent had no right to be hostile and make her feel like a slut. NOT his business. The blame lies with him, not partially with him, with him. Assigning any blame to her and her dress for HIS comment perpetuates the idea that a female is culpable in hostilities against her based on her choice of clothing. The problem with this sentiment is that I can walk up to you at any moment in time and say that "you looked at me and it made me feel like a slut". Or you ask me "how are my kids" and I will tell you that you made me feel like you are after my children and I am afraid for their lives. Should I hold you entirely responsible for all the feelings I might be having?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:51:54 GMT -5
too bad that women dont believe this....since they are the ones "TRYING" to get noticedARGH!!!!!!!!!! And how do you KNOW that? I have a friend with huge boobs, short of her wearing a turtle neck there's not a damn thing she can do to really cover them up. And honestly, you still notice em even in the turtle neck. She tries her best, but when it's 95* and 95% humidity out should she really have to wear a turtle neck so guys won't stare at her? Or me, I'm 5'10. Most women's clothing is made for someone around the height of 5'4. Clothing that looks normal on someone 5'4 or 5'6 is ridiculously short on me, but the only way for me to get shorts that are "long enough" for me is shopping in the guys department. No thank you. I have no control over the fact that I have 3ft of legs sticking out under the shorts making ANYTHING I wear look short. Or that my torso is longer than a normal woman so it's damn hard to find dresses that cover my ass. While I am well aware of how short things are, I don't have much alternative unless I want to wear pants when it's 95* out and 95% humidity so I wear them so I can be comfortable not so guys will stare at my legs. This assumption that anytime a female wears something that is in anyway provocative to random Joe Schmoo she's doing it BECAUSE she wants a reaction and wants to get noticed is a problem. **Full disclosure, sometimes I do wear things that are more sexy to try and get noticed, but even then a girl wearing the exact same dress in the exact same size but is 5'4 is going to be noticed way less than me on the mere fact of my long legs. so sometimes you want to be noticed, and sometimes you dont and your friend does whatever she can to minimize the effects of her boobs i understand.... i am not "blaming" the girl....i said the TSA guy was in the wrong...i think everyone has said the same thing but i am saying that women do provoke comments based on what they wear, how they wear it, and where they wear it when a woman walking down the street causes a fender bender because she bends down to check the strap on her sandal, the dress MAY be a little short when you walk through a mall and EVERY guy stares at your cleavage, maybe you could have worn something a little different if women are blaming men for comments on stuff like that....we have a LONG way to go
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:53:33 GMT -5
I know exactly what the term is and I still don't believe it fits this situation with the information we have because we don't know what the TSA officers thought process was. The intent is critical to determining it. I can't speak for anyone else who was using the term, but I was using it in the context of the responses of YMOT posters who have focused on what the girl was wearing/doing when deciding whether the TSA agent was justified in his actions. I never used it with respect to the TSA agent's actions themselves. The danger to situations like this is that a disappropriate punishment is handed out because of hyperbole. I think a nice turn to this thread, since everything else has been beaten to death, is what should the punishment be for the TSA officer? I'll start: Write up.. No suspension or loss of pay. If he continues to do similar things, then further action required.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 10:53:56 GMT -5
I actually thought Mids example was a good one.
I have a daughter who would pick at her brother. Although calm in temperament, the interchange would occasionally end with a slap.
I would tell her it was not right and he would be punished. I would also explain that I can't take the sting away. She is smaller, and if she is going to go around picking on bigger boys, this probably won't be the last sting I can't take away...
But I would NEVER tell my son that he was justified in hitting her. Physical violence is never an answer to being provoked and we would discuss alternatives and there would be consequences.
The point isn't will men say/do things. The point is do we accept them. Do we suggest their words and actions are justified.
I might caution my daughter not to pick on the big boys in the room... But I will never suggest that the big boys are justified in harassment or assault... No matter what she is wearing.
Suggesting that 'crap happens' and so women should just anticipate it and live with it is the epitome of a culture that blames women. As long as people can't see that, our daughters will never be as free as our sons.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 10:58:08 GMT -5
FROM WIKI According to Joyce E. Williams, "the major criticism of rape culture and the feminist theory from which it emanates is the monolithic implication that ultimately all women are victimized by all men."
so according to what i just read, men should never comment on what women/girls are wearing we should pretend that we dont notice.... too bad that women dont believe this....since they are the ones "TRYING" to get noticed maybe all the women should agree on what is ok first, and then just tell us guys what we can or cant say, see, or do Let me break it down for you and others 'not' getting it. And you don't need to "get it" to behave appropriately. You just need to behave appropriately. 1) Never comment on the appearance of someone you don't know. Don't whistle, don't ogle, just go about your day as are they going about theirs. Don't comment on the appearance of coworkers or acquaintances. They are nearly strangers, and abide by the above strangers guidelines. Feel free to comment to your SOs. If they don't like it they will tell you. Be sure to always compliment the appearance of your mother, I'm sure she will appreciate it. 2) Try this on: if you must interpret a woman's manner of dress to be "trying" to get attention, please understand that it isn't YOUR attention. If is your attention for some bizarre reason, she will let you know, and until then, see 1. That's not RAPE CULTURE, that's GOOD MANNERS. That being said and manners aside - if you have the right to wear whatever you want and look whichever way you want - why don't I have the right to look at you or make comments? Once again, why is your right trumps my right? And as far as getting attention - I would like to point out again - that I've never met a woman who looked the way she did just for herself. Some say they do, but they don't. So, yes, they do try to get attention, but since they can't control whose attention they are getting, they are getting all pissed off and angry.
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