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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 15:39:14 GMT -5
I love this article. It is so much better at explaining why the emphasis should never be on what a woman is wearing when she is treated disrespectfully. ht.ly/msLZ5
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jul 6, 2013 15:51:38 GMT -5
Good story.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 6, 2013 15:52:11 GMT -5
We will never agree on this issue.
I'm not giving the TSA agent a free pass. I'm not placing all the blame on the daughter. I totally agree with going to bat for your kids when they are being harassed. I'm just not willing to totally overlook one particular variable in a situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 15:56:59 GMT -5
I agree with the idea that the emphasis should never be on what a woman is wearing when she is treated disrespectfully.
But as a teacher of high school students, I will say that clothing (or the lack of it) can be a major distraction to teenage boys. I am not sure that isn't true of adult men. Most of them like to "look."
The TSA agent was totally out of line, but the father missed an additional learning opportunity. He could have told his daughter that people do indeed judge a book by its cover. Did she like how she was judged? Obviously, not. Would she like to change that judgment?
Instead, the message he sent to his daughter was "Daddy will take care of Princess." If she had made the complaint herself, I would be much more impressed. If she had texted her mother, I would be more impressed. "Daddy to the rescue" doesn't impress me that much. The article makes a big deal out of how great it was that she could confide in her "parents."
I never saw anything about her mother's response or even involvement.
I just don't get the "warm and fuzzy" feeling that you do from this, Later. Sorry.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 6, 2013 16:03:04 GMT -5
Thank you southernsusana -- its easy to get emotional when we are talking about a "poor defenseless teenage girl" and a "creepy old man". Appearance in general affects how we are treated -- whether we have a dozen piercings, or unkempt hair. People in suits get more respect than people in rags.
And yes, men like to look.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2013 17:04:55 GMT -5
Oh, I have so many thoughts on this.
First, I do not think what she was wearing was at all inappropriate, and I'm a pretty conservative person when it comes to clothing. Second, even if the TSA agent thought it was inappropriate for her to wear that, he had no business chastising her. He was completely out of line. Third, I don't see a problem with her calling either of her parents. She is only 15. She's not a child, but she's still young.
But all of this leads me to something I've been thinking about quite a lot lately with so much of what has been in the news about young girls being assaulted and the idea of the "rape culture." Boys/men are absolutely responsible for their actions and have no right, ever, under any circumstances, to take advantage of or assault a woman for any reason. They need to understand that no matter what a woman looks like, is wearing, etc., they have no right to take what they want.
HOWEVER, I think we need to do a better job teaching our girls to be realistic and to respect themselves. Should a woman be able to walk down a dark street in a tiny skirt and tank top? Yes. Is that reality? No. And the fact is that you teach people how to treat you. If you look like you don't respect yourself, others will not respect you. Also, women need to make good choices. Going to a party and getting so drunk that you aren't able to make good choices for yourself and can't remember what happened is not smart.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 6, 2013 17:12:34 GMT -5
But as a teacher of high school students, I will say that clothing (or the lack of it) can be a major distraction to teenage boys. I am not sure that isn't true of adult men. Most of them like to "look." Yes, men of any ages can be distracted by women. But why is this is the woman's problem? Shouldn't we instead start dealing with the men and their reaction? And I say that as a mother of 2 boys. And as a mother that would attempt to teach a daughter that society will judge her (fairly or not) based on how she appears. But the fact remains - it's completely ridiculous to keep placing the responsibility for controlling male actions on the women. When Indian government realized that the entire world was horrified by India's culture of sexual harassment and rape, many of the proposals involved controlling women's actions - curfew for women, claiming that women who are raped are "asking for it", etc. In many Muslim cultures, a chador, headscarf or burka are required because just the mere sight of a woman might be so tempting to men that it is considered immodest for a women to tempt a man by her very presence. Is that really the attitude that we want to promote? That the responsibility for a man's thoughts or actions rests with random women? Ridiculous, sexist and wrong. Sorry, no way to sugarcoat that. I don't personally like how the girl in question was dressed but to ask her to cover up because she might be responsible for distracting boys or men is wrong. We need to start instead teaching our boys better manners and control if the sight of a woman's skin is so provocative that they cannot control themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 17:18:29 GMT -5
Milee, I don't disagree with you at all. Controlling male actions is the responsibility of males. However, females are aware of those reactions. I grew up in an older generation where being a "tease" was a pejorative term. Times have changed. "Teasing" is the style. It's the edge of most of the fashion and most of the music and most of the celebrities. But I still agree that the guys have to control themselves.
But that really didn't strike me as the real point. The TSA Agent didn't say that she would get raped if she dressed like that. He said, "Cover up." He judged her. And that is the lesson her father should have been teaching. She will be judged if she dresses a certain way. If that bothers her, she needs to think about how she dresses. If she can blow it off, then she is fine.
I am not excusing anyone. But I am also not putting Daddy on a pedestal. I think he is doing Baby Girl a big disservice.
That is my real point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 17:20:16 GMT -5
Kgb, did you see a picture of what she was wearing? I didn't.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 6, 2013 17:27:36 GMT -5
I've got mixed feelings on the TSA thing since IMHO neither side behaved in a very admirable way, so I'm not going to weigh in on that.
And yes, most women are very aware of the reactions that they can get from men with certain clothing. Heck, a few months ago when my girlfriends and I went on a road trip towing a boat, the sum total of our emergency plan in case of flat tire or trailer trouble was that we were going to simply wear skirts when we drove. And we're in our 40s. (Shameless, but true.)
The point is, though, that when a woman wears something provocative to cause a reaction it is fully within - or should be fully within - the man's control whether or not to react. Men can respond to the "invitation" or they can laugh, roll their eyes at the "slut" and move on. Their choice.
When we as a society shame women for wearing certain clothing, that is essentially saying that they shouldn't be allowed the choice to wear what they want because of a reaction that they may cause that men should have control over. So we completely take away the woman's rights to protect a weakness of a stranger. It's not optional in that case, the woman is assumed to not have the right to choose her own clothing. Women should have the same choice as men here - to wear what they want and not be publicly judged or shamed for it. You can have a personal opinion, but if what she's wearing is legal, you should keep it to yourself, IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 17:32:16 GMT -5
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 6, 2013 17:34:48 GMT -5
It is in the 90's or higher in many places and she looks appropriate to me. Here is her picture:
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2013 17:38:55 GMT -5
There it is. Thanks for posting POM. I don't see how that is inappropriate. I was expecting to see something much more naked looking.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 17:56:23 GMT -5
She looks fine to me, too, so she should have been able to have blown the TSA agent off as a "dirty old man." And, yes, that is true at 15. I teach high school. She is a unique 15-year-old that wouldn't have given him the finger (if only mentally) and moved on.
I still see it as a "Daddy, rescue me" mentality, which is what I originally criticized. That was my real comment. Daddy is being celebrated for what he did in standing up for her, and I think he did her a disservice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 17:59:51 GMT -5
Both of her parents stood up for her. The article emphasised the dad because it is a section about good men. At 15 I don't see a problem with your parents showing you how to address something like this. I don't see her as a princess at all. I really don't understand where the princess description comes from.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 6, 2013 18:09:59 GMT -5
She is 15 years old. Nobody would have listened to her had she stood up for herself or they would have called her a brat, disrespectful... whatever. Her parents are doing what parents should do and they are defending their under age child from somewhat of a perv/bully IMO. Most young adult women would not know what to do or who to complain to had that occurred to them and I think it got more attention from the powers that be from a father/mother complaining than it would have from a 15 year old girl. I'm sure had she taken it further it would have been ignored.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 20:08:20 GMT -5
Ok, I live in a different world. Fifteen-year-olds stand up for themselves all the time in my world. It is a world where I teach. I can't imagine a fifteen-year-old that wouldn't have said, "Shut up, dirty old man. This is how people dress." They may not have said that aloud, but they would have thought it and acted appropriately on it. They wouldn't have dialed Daddy. I have had seventeen/eighteen-year-olds say, "You know, I talk LOUD. That is how I talk. So get over it. It is how I talk." You people may have demure, quiet children, but very few of the kids I know would have been that upset. However, many of them would have called Daddy because they were upset. I teach many "Princesses." I love my Princesses. I only know if they are Princesses, though, if they bring Daddy into the picture. Daddy will save them. I am not being judgmental, not cynical, nothing really. I just have a problem with the "Daddy will rescue me" complex. I see it much more than you. Oh, and Daddy often has a lawyer accompanying him. I bet he did in this case as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 20:16:45 GMT -5
When we as a society shame women for wearing certain clothing, that is essentially saying that they shouldn't be allowed the choice to wear what they want because of a reaction that they may cause that men should have control over. So we completely take away the woman's rights to protect a weakness of a stranger. Which is the reasoning behind burkas. Women are required to wear them to keep men from attacking them. Yeah, right.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 20:21:22 GMT -5
Yes you are.
I'm amazed you are judging her for telling her parents what happened. Of all things, it never occurred to me that anyone would criticize that.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2013 20:22:57 GMT -5
Okay, but we're not talking about a situation where a girl called her father over a trivial matter. This isn't a situation of a child whining about life being unfair. A man in a position of power overstepped his bounds and made a very inappropriate comment to her and made her feel wrong. At the age of 15 I don't think I would have known the appropriate steps to take in a situation like that. And I would have been very upset.
Would it have been better for her to cuss the guy out in the middle of the airport? Would that have been the right way for her to handle it?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 6, 2013 20:43:52 GMT -5
Different families communicate in different ways, obviously. But I try to stay in touch and involved with my boys' life since I think it's good parenting and I also just like to hear what is going on with them. If an incident like this would have happened to any of us, we would have shared it with the others because it was something out of the ordinary that happened that day. And I'm far from a helicopter mom, am big on personal responsibility and do not tend to rescue but instead teach them how to help themselves. So I don't think it's odd or acting like a "Princess" that she told her dad about the incident. I agree with the prior poster who stated that had the girl been sassy or rude to the TSA agent (even if I support the idea that his comment was wrong), that would have been unacceptable. Southernsusana, you mentioned that you would be much more impressed had she texted her mother, but the article said she texted both her mother and father, so it wasn't exactly a "Daddy to the rescue" call... You also stated you didn't see anything in the article about the mom being involved, but the article clearly states the girl texted both parents and that both parents met at the airport. Were we reading the same article or did your preconceived notions prevent you from absorbing some key details? The article said the parents met at the airport and talked to TSA agents about the incident. Dad blogs, so also added the story to his blog, where it was picked up by news. No lawyers were mentioned and none of that sounds like an unreasonable way to handle the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 21:18:18 GMT -5
I need to go back to this. How many women that are raped do you think were walking down dark alley's in skirts and tank tops? Or drunk at parties? Not that it never happens but it isn't the norm. The most common form of rape is acquaintance rape. It has nothing to do with clothing choices.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2013 21:20:46 GMT -5
I have a very close family. I'm 36, and I talk to my parents almost every day. My brothers and I are in frequent contact. I talked to DH's family almost every day. Anything out of the ordinary would be shared in our family, too. And I ask my parents, or my in-laws, for advice all the time. I like to hear their thoughts and opinions.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2013 21:24:18 GMT -5
It happens more than you would think. And so often even the acquaintance rapes are in situations where the woman is impaired because of alcohol or drugs. I'm going based on anecdotes, but because I am a crime reporter, I read a lot of police reports and sit in on a lot of hearings and trials. Most (not all, but most) sexual assaults that I've covered have happened when the woman has been drinking and/or taking drugs. It might not have to do with clothing choices, but it still has to do with bad choices.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 21:30:56 GMT -5
kgb this is the kind of jump that happens. We started by talking about a man harassing a young woman. And now we are talking about women making bad choices. This shouldn't happen. Or even if we talk about women drinking or doing drugs, the emphasis should be on the fact that there are predatory men that will use that to their advantage. The men are the ones in the wrong, not the woman. Period.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 6, 2013 21:37:02 GMT -5
Once again I probably won't win any fans here, but since I once was a 15 yr old girl - and had many 15 yr old girls as friends - can we please call a spade a spade and agree that girls and women dress for attention.
I just love it when a woman says - oh no, I dress for myself. Yeah, right. I've NEVER seen "that" woman wear anything remotely similar while she is washing dishes or watching TV in the house while she is just there by herself. And while not everyone wears baggy sweats and oversized T-shirts around the house - women don't do most of the stuff they do for "themselves". They do it to get attention or as a requirement of the circumstances.
The problem is, they can't control the kind of attention they get. So, if you want to dress a certain way, that's fine - the freedom, USA, ra-ra-ra - but then anyone should have the same freedom to make whatever comments they want.
And yeah, this father, the hero, didn't have to go public with this. He could have just told the TSA to shut up and tell his girly not to pay attention, bc the only lesson this 15 yr old learned is her daddy, the big shot, will fight her battles.
You are old enough to dress the way you want - you should be old enough to deal with consequences.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 6, 2013 21:38:20 GMT -5
kgb this is the kind of jump that happens. We started by talking about a man harassing a young woman. And now we are talking about women making bad choices. This shouldn't happen. Or even if we talk about women drinking or doing drugs, the emphasis should be on the fact that there are predatory men that will use that to their advantage. The men are the ones in the wrong, not the woman. Period. Yes, of course, bc we are not jumping from a single phrase of "cover up" to men being predators. Nope, no jumping there
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 6, 2013 21:42:32 GMT -5
Ok, I live in a different world. Fifteen-year-olds stand up for themselves all the time in my world. It is a world where I teach. I can't imagine a fifteen-year-old that wouldn't have said, "Shut up, dirty old man. This is how people dress." They may not have said that aloud, but they would have thought it and acted appropriately on it. They wouldn't have dialed Daddy. I have had seventeen/eighteen-year-olds say, "You know, I talk LOUD. That is how I talk. So get over it. It is how I talk." But your world is their comfort zone. How many teens are really comfortable telling off a police officer? There are different levels of authority and a school is a teens comfort zone. i don't see the teen running to daddy to save the day, but then I call my dad and ask him how to handle things at work to this day and I am 31. If she had spoken up for herself, everyone would have said "brat". Really she obviously couldn't win other than just take it and frankly I'm glad someone spoke up against that. Who knows how many underage that guy harassed? He needed to know he was out of line and if he can't get it in line, then he needs to lose his job.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 6, 2013 21:46:47 GMT -5
I was anything but a helicopter parent, but I would have wanted my daughter to call us if something like this had happened to her. I know, at her age, her comments regarding this incident would not have mattered a hill of beans. However, had it happened to my daughter, and had she called me (which she would have), the people responsible would have wished they hadn't gotten out of bed that morning. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the young lady is dressed, and that jackarse who made the derogatory comment needs to know that. He also needs to know to keep his flippin' opinions to himself. It's not his job to dress the teens on the flights, and I'd have his hide for it. Perhaps, that would help to prevent another young woman from suffering his ugliness.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 6, 2013 21:46:48 GMT -5
The problem is, they can't control the kind of attention they get. So, if you want to dress a certain way, that's fine - the freedom, USA, ra-ra-ra - but then anyone should have the same freedom to make whatever comments they want. You are old enough to dress the way you want - you should be old enough to deal with consequences. If this girl was harassed by a stranger while walking down the street, I'd be disgusted by the stranger's actions, but would agree with the sentiment that strangers can and do make inappropriate comments, so if you dress provocatively that comes with the territory and is a risk you should be aware of. But this is a federal employee who knows the girl is a minor; not only that, he is making an inappropriate comment while on the job. No way is this appropriate or covered under the idea that he has the freedom to make whatever comments he wants to. His comments are a form of not just insult but sexual harassment. And the fact that they were directed at a minor in public is inexcusable. And if all that weren't bad enough, this is one of the few federal employees who may have the power to perform - or cause to have performed - a very invasive examination of your person. Who hasn't shuddered at the idea of the TSA employees and the new, intimate "pat downs" that involve an agent actually touching your genital area? There is no way in Hades that is it remotely acceptable for a TSA agent to be making any comment whatsoever that might even border on sexual harassment or shaming particularly because that agent is in such a sensitive position of authority.
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