Explaining it right

[Deleted]

So you assume that since the story didn't make sense that the woman is more likely to be the one lying or the cause of the issue? Why assume that rather than assume that the TSA guy was overstepping his authority? There have been plenty of news articles about TSA agents overstepping authority, doing improper pat downs, taking pictures of the scans that show the near naked pictures of passengers, etc.

If the story doesn't make sense to you, why assume the woman is at fault?

Milee I "assume" that the picture doesn't accurately display what we would see in person. If it did then I see no reason for the TSA agent to say anything. It looks totally proper to me. However if that is one of those basically see through tops that doesn't show up that way on a picture then the agents statement would make sense.

Again I'll say that as a TSA agent he was wrong in saying anything. As a guy pointing out that someone's boobs are exposed & that person is 15, I think that he was probably right.
As for the girl (not woman) being right or wrong I wouldn't say that it was either. I could sure see a 15 year old girl pushing the limits. I could sure see a it because I knew a few of them about 100 years ago & they did. IF she was under dressed then really I wouldn't assign blame to her, but to her parents.

Again I'll say that I doubt saying something falls under a TSA agents authority & from that angle he was more than likely wrong. As a man, he "might" have been right if she was indeed wearing a see through top with no bra at 15.

To me this story isn't about woman's rights or an abusive TSA agent. (Unless the top wasn't see through & if it wasn't why would he have said that in the first place). It's about a minor showing her boobs in a public place.

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2013 17:11:03 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:08:12 GMT -5 @mmc said:

I see a lot of people acting like the TSA comment came from someone being creepy versus someone being, in their own mind, protective.  I think a creep wouldn't want her to cover anything up.

Your logic doesn't follow. The guys that make women wear burkas are creepy.

Oh please....

[Deleted]

I guess it all comes down for each of us as to what we "assume" & based off of that we say what we think.

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2013 17:20:35 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:08:12 GMT -5 @mmc said:

I see a lot of people acting like the TSA comment came from someone being creepy versus someone being, in their own mind, protective.  I think a creep wouldn't want her to cover anything up.

There is no indication whatsoever that he was being protective - where is this fantasy coming from?

According to reports, he was first mumbling under his breath and when she said "excuse" me, he was hostile.

Creeps come in a variety of creeps.  Maybe some are just oglers, but some do get their kicks on others discomforts.

Inverse fantasy as some who think he is a rapist.

[Deleted]

Just wondering....If she were wearing the coat as she is pictured as having on. And the agent told her to "cover up", how EXACTLY was she going to do that (cover up)? Again I'm assuming but I bet she didn't have it on.

[Deleted]

As the person that started the thread, neither I or the article talked about rape. It is about the oppression and control of women. There is a Hillary Clinton quote in one of the articles that points out that most oppressive societies and extremists first want to control the women. In this case many people are saying the young women is expected to put up with whatever people feel like saying about her wardrobe choices.

tex, if the outfit is exactly as presented what do you think of the TSA agent?

[milee]

Jul 7, 2013 17:11:26 GMT -5 @mmc said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:00:18 GMT -5 milee said:

To overstep authority, something like an order with follow up consequences would be needed.  What we instead have is someone making a comment they shouldn't have.  Inappropriate yes and worthy of a write up at the most.  To stretch this into more is an attempt to turn this into a witch, er warlock, hunt.

There's an imbalance of power in this situation that perhaps men have trouble empathizing with.  I remember once when I was 18, a highway patrolman legitimately pulled me over for speeding at close to midnight.  I was already nervous and upset because I didn't want a ticket and had been raised to be painfully polite/respectful of the police, so was in no way flirtatious, was close to tears and saying "yes, sir".  He was about a foot taller than I was and maybe 20 years older, wearing a uniform, badge and gun.  He made an inappropriate suggestion.  There was no stated threat (it wasn't "you do X or I'll do Y", more of a "I'll bet you're good at Z") and we were near a busy road, but I cannot convey how embarrassed and threatened I felt.  A person in authority who can cause you to be miserable and also has the advantage of age, position and power does not need to directly state consequences in order to improperly pressure or harass someone.

The thread hasn't really been a witch/warlock hunt, but more of a discussion about how society views what role women play in harassment, IMHO. 

And I'll bet there's more than one of you who is wondering what I was wearing or said to prompt the officer to say something inappropriate to me...  That's the crux of the point I keep trying to make.  It shouldn't be a major part of the discussion.  It's just not relevant.

[milee]

Jul 7, 2013 17:22:31 GMT -5 @mmc said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:20:35 GMT -5 @tbird said:

There is no indication whatsoever that he was being protective - where is this fantasy coming from?

According to reports, he was first mumbling under his breath and when she said "excuse" me, he was hostile.

Creeps come in a variety of creeps.  Maybe some are just oglers, but some do get their kicks on others discomforts.

Inverse fantasy as some who think he is a rapist.

I missed that.  Would you please point out the post (or posts) that claim the TSA agent is a rapist?

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2013 17:32:02 GMT -5 milee said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:22:31 GMT -5 @mmc said:

Inverse fantasy as some who think he is a rapist.

I missed that.  Would you please point out the post (or posts) that claim the TSA agent is a rapist?

No one said he was a rapist. I am assuming people in this thread think that. Just like they/you are assuming this guys intentions. See how all that works?  Lots of ASSumptions.. 

[milee]

Jul 7, 2013 17:37:48 GMT -5 @mmc said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:32:02 GMT -5 milee said:

I missed that.  Would you please point out the post (or posts) that claim the TSA agent is a rapist?

No one said he was a rapist. I am assuming people in this thread think that. Just like they/you are assuming this guys intentions. See how all that works?  Lots of ASSumptions.. 

You're assuming that I am drawing any conclusions at all on the guy's intentions?  What would you base that assumption on?  I don't think I've ever discussed or alluded to the agent's intentions. 

Edited to add: if you read my posts, I actually don't say much about the agent at all, other than to say that his comments are not appropriate.  Most of my points have been that it's not appropriate for society, us or the TSA to harass a woman based on what she's wearing or to seek to blame a women who is harassed based on what she is wearing.

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 7, 2013 17:29:29 GMT -5 milee said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:11:26 GMT -5 @mmc said:

To overstep authority, something like an order with follow up consequences would be needed.  What we instead have is someone making a comment they shouldn't have.  Inappropriate yes and worthy of a write up at the most.  To stretch this into more is an attempt to turn this into a witch, er warlock, hunt.

There's an imbalance of power in this situation that perhaps men have trouble empathizing with.  I was already nervous and upset because I didn't want a ticket and had been raised to be painfully polite/respectful of the police, so was in no way flirtatious, was close to tears and saying "yes, sir".  He was about a foot taller than I was and maybe 20 years older, wearing a uniform, badge and gun.  He made an inappropriate suggestion.  There was no stated threat (it wasn't "you do X or I'll do Y", more of a "I'll bet you're good at Z") and we were near a busy road, but I cannot convey how embarrassed and threatened I felt.  A person in authority who can cause you to be miserable and also has the advantage of age, position and power does not need to directly state consequences in order to improperly pressure or harass someone.

The thread hasn't really been a witch/warlock hunt, but more of a discussion about how society views what role women play in harassment, IMHO. 

And I'll bet there's more than one of you who is wondering what I was wearing or said to prompt the officer to say something inappropriate to me...  That's the crux of the point I keep trying to make.  It shouldn't be a major part of the discussion.  It's just not relevant.

I would like to state for the record that not once while reading your story I wondered what you were wearing.  Until you mentioned it. 

I would like to also state for the record that I am, indeed, a female and yet, I just don't see the imbalance of any kind of power.  If anything, SHE could have and may be did, get him in trouble, while the ONLY thing he could have done was make a comment.  So, if there is any imbalance of any kind of power - it is heavily in her favor. 

And the last thing I want to say is that there were so many times when I wanted to say that EXACT phrase to young girls.  I used to work near a movie theater that served as a popular hang-out for teens, where parents would drop off their daughters.  The only reason I never said anything was bc I knew that it wouldn't do any good.  

So, while it was stupid for TSA guy to make any comment that could potentially effect his job - his sentiment is very familiar to me and I've never considered myself creepy or oogler of young girls, etc

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2013 17:28:53 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

As the person that started the thread, neither I or the article talked about rape. It is about the oppression and control of women. There is a Hillary Clinton quote in one of the articles that points out that most oppressive societies and extremists first want to control the women. In this case many people are saying the young women is expected to put up with whatever people feel like saying about her wardrobe choices.

tex, if the outfit is exactly as presented what do you think of the TSA agent?

As I've said I seen nothing at all wrong with the way that she is dressed. Certainly nothing that should (or would be) commented about. That's why I don't think that what we saw is what he saw (because if what we saw is what he saw his comment makes no sense).

[Deleted]

And the last thing I want to say is that there were so many times when I wanted to say that EXACT phrase to young girls. I used to work near a movie theater that served as a popular hang-out for teens, where parents would drop off their daughters. The only reason I never said anything was bc I knew that it wouldn't do any good.

So, while it was stupid for TSA guy to make any comment that could potentially effect his job - his sentiment is very familiar to me and I've never considered myself creepy or oogler of young girls, etc

Exactly! It was dumb for him to have said anything as a TSA agent. On the other hand it might not have been dumb to say as a dad or an older guy. As I said if she was exposing more than she should I would hope that I would have said something rather than just "enjoying the show".

Again we are all just guessing here. Even with the picture we really don't know. If anything the picture makes me think that daddy didn't get the whole story because wearing that coat she isn't exposing anything & the comment seems "odd". See through top & with the coat off then I could see a comment (from a dad or an older guy). Again I'll say if she was wearing the coat how was she going to cover up (even more)? That comment doesn't make sense with the coat on.

[Deleted]

Yeah, she really should submit a better picture so that we can all judge her more accurately    Maybe there is video tape somewhere? 

Sigh.

[8 Bit WWBG]

I think its awesome we've been able to have one of these discussions without the usual hyper-extremes or 20 reports!  Well done.

After seeing the picture, I would say that sort of dress is very common among flyers today.  In a sense, that parallels the point about pushing the line.  It wasn't that long ago that people dressed up to fly.  Now people dress for comfort.  I agree with the comments that it was likely a nearly see-through cami, and/or it was way up her waist.  I agree that professionally, commenting on it was out of the scope of his job.  It is also possible it was completely opaque, but to the agent, anything less than a turtleneck sweater and mom jeans is provocative.

So what if the TSA agent was a father to a teenage girl who'd encountered similar problems from how she dressed; and his motivation was much more noble than it came across?  I think a similar point was made earlier.  His comment was unprofessional, definitely.  If he was standing up for some cause in his mind, that makes the issue much more complicated.

I guess we could test the theory and have a male volunteer wear yoga clothes through a TSA checkpoint.

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2013 17:43:39 GMT -5 milee said:

Jul 7, 2013 17:37:48 GMT -5 @mmc said:

No one said he was a rapist. I am assuming people in this thread think that. Just like they/you are assuming this guys intentions. See how all that works?  Lots of ASSumptions.. 

You're assuming that I am drawing any conclusions at all on the guy's intentions?  What would you base that assumption on?  I don't think I've ever discussed or alluded to the agent's intentions. 

Edited to add: if you read my posts, I actually don't say much about the agent at all, other than to say that his comments are not appropriate.  Most of my points have been that it's not appropriate for society, us or the TSA to harass a woman based on what she's wearing or to seek to blame a women who is harassed based on what she is wearing.

Oh please... Humans work by filling in missing facts with their own assumptions based on their personal experience. To say you haven't many any assumptions is ludicrous.

Like my twin brother:

[Gardening Grandma]

Until I read the story, I did not realize that the father was not with the daughter when the incident occurred.  She texted him and sent him a photo of how she says she was dressed at the time.  The father, accepted her version and went ballastic.

My take:
1) I seriously doubt that she had on the long sleeve shirt when told to "cover herself".  If she had, I cannot see any reason for anyone to comment.

2) My first guess is that the TSA agent (inapppropriately and unprofessionally) made a comment likely thinking of his own daughter/granddaugher....

3) Teenagers do stretch the truth to make themselves appear more innocent than they often are.  

4) I agree with susanna that the father did her no favors.   I think he over-reacted. A lot.

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2013 17:56:23 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

She looks fine to me, too, so she should have been able to have blown the TSA agent off as a "dirty old man."  And, yes, that is true at 15.  I teach high school.  She is a unique 15-year-old that wouldn't have given him the finger (if only mentally) and moved on. 

I still see it as a "Daddy, rescue me" mentality, which is what I originally criticized.  That was my real comment.  Daddy is being celebrated for what he did in standing up for her, and I think he did her a disservice.

I am sorry, but why SHOULDN'T her daddy stick up for her?  Why SHOULDN'T he stand up for his daughter and her rights?  I don't understand why you think it is bad for a dad to stand up for his daughter. 

[Gardening Grandma]

I am sorry, but why SHOULDN'T her daddy stick up for her? Why SHOULDN'T he stand up for his daughter and her rights? I don't understand why you think it is bad for a dad to stand up for his daughter.

I think he should have made an effort to find out the full story before going ballastic based solely on what his daughter said happened. He really came across to me like a helicopter parent.

[justme]

Jul 8, 2013 9:32:56 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

I am sorry, but why SHOULDN'T her daddy stick up for her? Why SHOULDN'T he stand up for his daughter and her rights? I don't understand why you think it is bad for a dad to stand up for his daughter.

I think he should have made an effort to find out the full story before going ballastic based solely on what his daughter said happened. He really came across to me like a helicopter parent.

The "full story" is the agent made an inappropriate comment outside of the scope of his work while he was on the job. What she was wearing is immaterial to the story, unless she was undressed to the point where it's illegal to be out in public like that.

As for going ballistic....would I be going ballistic if a coworker said something inappropriate with me and I talk to his or my supervisor about it? Or, to make it closer to the story, some cast member at Disney made an inappropriate comment to me and I went to speak with his manager? I think it seems entirely appropriate to talk to a supervisor about how their employee was acting when it's inappropriate for the job. What was the dad supposed to do - buy a plane ticket every day and go through security until he found the specific agent and talk to him first before going to the supervisor?

[Deleted]

what she was wearing is not immaterial

her lack of dress is what provoked the comment

was the comment wrong...yes

but was the agent trying to be helpful or hurtful?

to me, i think he was trying to be helpful....but i could be wrong

the comment was wrong...it was not in the scope of his duties

sometimes i think the pendulum has swung a little farther than common sense should dictate

there was a time when anyone can/would make a comment on someone else's attire, and the comments hopefully would change the behavior of that person

now, seems like you just have to flow with whatever people decide to wear, appropriate or not

and we have all seen it.....from the kids to the adults....

in malls, restaurants, schools, doesnt seem to matter anymore

i am not a prude....at least i dont consider myself one

but damn.....really?

[midjd]

her lack of dress is what provoked the comment

And that is rape culture, in a nutshell.

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2013 9:32:56 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

I am sorry, but why SHOULDN'T her daddy stick up for her? Why SHOULDN'T he stand up for his daughter and her rights? I don't understand why you think it is bad for a dad to stand up for his daughter.

I think he should have made an effort to find out the full story before going ballastic based solely on what his daughter said happened. He really came across to me like a helicopter parent.

From what I understood from the story, he didn't go ballistic right away.  He went to the airport to get the full story.

If it were my daughter, I would be upset that someone thought it was their job/right to tell her to cover up.  The girl in the story wasn't breaking any law or dress code.  The TSA agent had no right to tell her to cover up.

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2013 9:59:27 GMT -5 midjd said:

her lack of dress is what provoked the comment

And that is rape culture, in a nutshell.

If you are going to use that term this liberally, almost all men could have it applied to them at one time or another.  It is a sensational term though.

[mmhmm]

Jul 7, 2013 16:57:51 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

Jul 7, 2013 16:41:00 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

What interests me is the number of people who are willing to jump to the conclusion that the picture posted does not accurately depict the way the girl was dressed at the time of the incident.  The caption states this was the "outfit" she was wearing.  I see no reason to doubt that, as I don't take it upon myself to assume another is lying.  I don't lie, so I don't tend to expect others to do so.  Perhaps, that's naive; still, to me there's something wrong with deciding someone is lying when you have no clue whether they are, or not.

I don't doubt that it was the outfit that she was wearing. On the other hand I doubt that a picture could accurately show how revealing it was. As one of the posters said, her daughter has several of those tops & they are see through. I "ASSUME" that must be true otherwise the TSA agents statement makes on sense to me. Either way we won't reach an agreement here. I "assume" that a 15 year old child was exposing herself. Others assume that it was a case of abuse of power. Oh well.

*chuckle*  Okay, oldtex.  What if it turns out the TSA agent is Muslim and was projecting his views of "right"on the young lady?  You still going to "assume" she's the one with the problem?

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2013 9:57:54 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

there was a time when anyone can/would make a comment on someone else's attire, and the comments hopefully would change the behavior of that person

now, seems like you just have to flow with whatever people decide to wear, appropriate or not
and we have all seen it.....from the kids to the adults....

in malls, restaurants, schools, doesnt seem to matter anymore

i am not a prude....at least i dont consider myself one

but damn.....really?

Yeah, really. It's not yours or anybody else's job to decide what is appropriate for anyone
 else, unless you want to live under the same type of law that gives way to the burka. That is, after all, just someone deciding, for everyone Else, what the proper amount of skin is...

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2013 10:05:00 GMT -5 @mmc said:

Jul 8, 2013 9:59:27 GMT -5 midjd said:

And that is rape culture, in a nutshell.

If you are going to use that term this liberally, almost all men could have it applied to them at one time or another.  It is a sensational term though.

No it's not. The idea that the girl provoked the action... That the action is defensible because of what the girl did... Is at the heart of a rape culture that places blame on the target.

[Deleted]

FROM WIKI

According to Joyce E. Williams, "the major criticism of rape culture and the feminist theory from which it emanates is the monolithic implication that ultimately all women are victimized by all men."

so according to what i just read, men should never comment on what women/girls are wearing

we should pretend that we dont notice....

too bad that women dont believe this....since they are the ones "TRYING" to get noticed

maybe all the women should agree on what is ok first, and then just tell us guys what we can or cant say, see, or do

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 8, 2013 9:59:27 GMT -5 midjd said:

her lack of dress is what provoked the comment

And that is rape culture, in a nutshell.

What exactly does it mean?

[midjd]

Jul 8, 2013 10:10:19 GMT -5 oped said:

Jul 8, 2013 10:05:00 GMT -5 @mmc said:

If you are going to use that term this liberally, almost all men could have it applied to them at one time or another.  It is a sensational term though.

No it's not. The idea that the girl provoked the action... That the action is defensible because of what the girl did... Is at the heart of arame culture that places blame on the target.

Exactly. It's the same principle that says Trayvon Martin invited bodily harm by wearing a hoodie.

If there's a different term that should be used, feel free to suggest one, but it does capture the whole idea that instead of focusing on the perp's actions, we focus on what the victim did to invite/deserve those actions.