Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:15:52 GMT -5
I also find it kind of interesting how people tend to jump on guys in articles like this. No defense for him as to it being part of his job to comment, because it's not. On the other hand we weren't there & don't really know what he saw do we? As an old guy & a father I might have said something depending on what I saw. With a 15 year old girl (If I realized that she was that young) I would hope that I would have said something rather than just enjoy the view.
I get the impression that a lot of you ladies are feeling that her right to dress how she wants to (& thus your right) is being curtailed because of some male sex thing. (Women being oppressed by men for no other reason that the man wants too). That's a gut reaction (to me).
I also think that if you were standing there next to her as she bounced around without a bra (assuming she did & I kind of do because she looks ok to me) in a see through top & all of the guys ogled her you would be the FIRST to come here & say "Guess what I saw at the airport, shameful". And you would have probably blamed the parents.
I think a big part of the way I feel about this comes down to her age. I really don't care to a certain extent how little women wear (actually I feel the less the better) but then I don't view a 15 year old as a woman. I didn't even feel a 15 year old was a woman when I was 15. Here again part of the story we don't know because we are assuming. For instance we can't see her face which could make a lot of difference as to how this appeared to the guy. I've known 15 year old that appeared to me to be 25 years old. I've known 25 year olds that appeared to me to be 15 years old. I just don't know how this girl appeared so really everything I say is a guess.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 10:31:31 GMT -5
Tex, the TSA agent knew exactly how old the girl was. He said, "You're only 15. Cover yourself!"
The rest of the stuff - if I personally would judge her or comment about her outfit, if the outfit is appropriate, etc. - isn't really relevant is the point. The questions are - was she dressed legally and within the rules of the airport? Should the TSA agent make a comment on her state of dress (assuming it was legal and within the rules of the airport)?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 10:37:03 GMT -5
Or, Tex, to give you the same type of comparison scenario I gave poor MMC (who in all fairness only popped in to make a comment at a time when I was making the other points on racism and caught a heaping helping of wrath that he didn't cause)...
If a police officer controlling the entrance to an event told you, "You're ancient! Old people shouldn't be allowed to slow down the rest of the people trying to get in." Would you be OK with 2/3 of the commentary on the issue being comments that question if your shuffling was blocking traffic, if you were dressed in a seersucker suit, if you didn't have the decency to dye your grey hair and if you should just stay home rather than inconvenience others with your slowness? No, because none of that should be the issue. You may actually have been doing those things, but the issue is whether it's OK for the police officer to treat you like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:41:12 GMT -5
bc I REALLY don't like when people don't take responsibility for their actions. What action should the girl be taking responsibility for?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:43:46 GMT -5
People are talking rape, violence, etc.. This story is nothing about that. The poor girl got a talking to, boo hoo... So you'll be OK with some new approaches I'll take to your future posts, then. When you post about a work situation where you think your company is discriminating against you because you're black, I'll question if you speak proper English or Ebonics. I'll then ask if you dress like a professional should or like a gangster, asking you to send pictures so we can all judge for ourselves. Then, I'll make sure you don't bring any stinky, greasy fried chicken to work grossing your coworkers out and leaving grease in the break room. After we've debated that for a while, we will talk about how you handled your complaint; were you appropriately servile or did your complaint show you're an angry black man? If it goes on, we may even get to why your parents didn't teach you how to act white, at least have the decency to conceal that you're black or not bother to apply for professional jobs, since after all racism does exist and by not putting yourself in situations where you can avoid it, you're at least partly to blame when you experience it. We'll spend 2/3 of the time examining if you being black, not dressing to conceal your blackness or how you handle being black and relating to others is what is causing the problem. I'm sure you'll be very receptive to this examination and all the helpful tips you'll receive about how you play a part in avoiding racism. This is ridiculous, I'm not black..
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 10:44:29 GMT -5
bc I REALLY don't like when people don't take responsibility for their actions. What action should the girl be taking responsibility for? You dress a certain way - accept what comes with it, including comments from strangers. BTW, it doesn't just apply to women's clothes choices, but somehow I've never heard of a guy being "insulted" bc someone told him to pull up his pants due to his underwear showing.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 10:45:33 GMT -5
So, to follow through with my previous post
Would all of you have the same reaction if female TSA agent told a guy to pull up his pants and cover himself up (or his underwear?)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:46:04 GMT -5
we weren't there & don't really know what he saw do we? Unless what he saw was within the scope of his job... Ie. she was naked and naked people aren't allowed on a plane, then he had NO right to comment on what she was wearing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:47:20 GMT -5
What action should the girl be taking responsibility for? You dress a certain way - accept what comes with it, including comments from strangers. And this is what I fight against. The idea that if you dress a certain way you are responsible for other people's actions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:48:06 GMT -5
People are talking rape, violence, etc.. This story is nothing about that. The poor girl got a talking to, boo hoo... sorry MMC - you are wrong. Men thinking it is ok/acceptable to comment on what a female chooses to wear is the problem. That it was a person in an authority position, and a minor involved each escalate this particular situation. She didn't "get a talking to" - she was harassed. And all those twisting this to be the TSA agent was trying to be helpful, wow. Just wow. I'm not wrong. The story is nothing about rape, violence, etc..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:48:42 GMT -5
So, to follow through with my previous post Would all of you have the same reaction if female TSA agent told a guy to pull up his pants and cover himself up (or his underwear?) Yes, inappropriate if outside the scope of the job.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 10:49:22 GMT -5
You dress a certain way - accept what comes with it, including comments from strangers. And this is what I fight against. The idea that if you dress a certain way you are responsible for other people's actions. I didn't say she was responsible for his actions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:49:52 GMT -5
Tex, the TSA agent knew exactly how old the girl was. He said, "You're only 15. Cover yourself!" The rest of the stuff - if I personally would judge her or comment about her outfit, if the outfit is appropriate, etc. - isn't really relevant is the point. The questions are - was she dressed legally and within the rules of the airport? Should the TSA agent make a comment on her state of dress (assuming it was legal and within the rules of the airport)? Milee first off it's wasn't the TSA agents job to say anything unless he thought her 3rd boob was a bomb. Also I doubt that the airport has a hard & fast rule on dress code except in the most general terms. So I agree that he probably shouldn't have said that. On the other hand I could see how he might depending on what he was seeing. Heck maybe it offended him. Some of us guys tend to be a little over protective for children & at 15 she is legally a child. IF she was wearing what amounted to a see through top & IF her dad posted pictures of her in it on the internet wouldn't we view him as a pervert, a bad parent, sick or strange? Would there really be a difference of posting a picture or letting her run around the airport dressed the same way? Again it come down to me that the important thing is her age.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 7, 2013 10:51:49 GMT -5
This makes me think about the saying, "it takes a village to raise a child". I think a lot of people like the idea in theory, but in practice have the attitude, how dare anyone else chime in with raising my child. The TSA guy was probably thinking he was part of the village and helping. Back in the day, this sort of thing was commonplace, and if the parents disagreed, they'd just tell their kid to ignore it. Nowadays, it turns into a big harassment case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:53:32 GMT -5
She isnt responsible for his actions, but she should just live with them?
So it's ok for him to cop a feel because she was 'inviting him to' with her dress? She should just live with that too? Where is the line? This is what confuses people... If its ok to shame her with words? Why stop there?
This is a person whose authority allows him to touch her and restrict her access/movements...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:55:23 GMT -5
She isnt responsible for his actions, but she should just live with them? So it's ok for him to cop a feel because she was 'inviting him to' with her dress? She should just live with that too? Where is the line? This is what confuses people... If its ok to shame her with words? Why stop there? This is a person whose authority allows him to touch her and restrict her access/movements... And none of that was done..
Woulda, coulda, DIDN'T...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:55:35 GMT -5
So, to follow through with my previous post Would all of you have the same reaction if female TSA agent told a guy to pull up his pants and cover himself up (or his underwear?) I don't think this conversation would go the same way at all! I think it would be more centered around the inappropriateness of the TSA comment than about "the boy should dress better and if not, he should be prepared to deal with the consequences." i think a lot of posters are right. Too many times we center our thoughts around 'well, she shouldn't have put herself in that situation", whether it is to do with inappropriate comments, rape or something else. The conversation should be "the person who did the wrong thing (rape, comment, etc) should not have done that." While I have no doubt that she was not dressed as conservatively as in the picture when she actually went through security, the comment is still inappropriate. Period. And I have no problem with the parents (mom/dad, whatever) taking up the girl's cause.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:57:13 GMT -5
She isnt responsible for his actions, but she should just live with them? So it's ok for him to cop a feel because she was 'inviting him to' with her dress? She should just live with that too? Where is the line? This is what confuses people... If its ok to shame her with words? Why stop there? This is a person whose authority allows him to touch her and restrict her access/movements... And none of that was done..
Woulda, coulda, DIDN'T...
Right, there would have been charges then. I didn't say he was criminal, but inappropriate and rightly taken to task. This isn't about rape. It's about rape culture. It's about introducing the idea that, if you dress a certain way, you take what you get...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 10:58:35 GMT -5
And none of that was done..
Woulda, coulda, DIDN'T...
Right, there would have been charges then. I didn't say he was criminal, but inappropriate and rightly taken to task. This isn't about rape. It's about rape culture. It's about introducing the idea that, if you dress a certain way, you take what you get... It isn't about rape culture at all. It is about you and a few others TRYING to make it about that.
If this was a 80 year old grandma in the airport saying EXACTLY the same thing, would it be about rape culture?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 10:59:35 GMT -5
So you'll be OK with some new approaches I'll take to your future posts, then. When you post about a work situation where you think your company is discriminating against you because you're black, I'll question if you speak proper English or Ebonics. I'll then ask if you dress like a professional should or like a gangster, asking you to send pictures so we can all judge for ourselves. Then, I'll make sure you don't bring any stinky, greasy fried chicken to work grossing your coworkers out and leaving grease in the break room. After we've debated that for a while, we will talk about how you handled your complaint; were you appropriately servile or did your complaint show you're an angry black man? If it goes on, we may even get to why your parents didn't teach you how to act white, at least have the decency to conceal that you're black or not bother to apply for professional jobs, since after all racism does exist and by not putting yourself in situations where you can avoid it, you're at least partly to blame when you experience it. We'll spend 2/3 of the time examining if you being black, not dressing to conceal your blackness or how you handle being black and relating to others is what is causing the problem. I'm sure you'll be very receptive to this examination and all the helpful tips you'll receive about how you play a part in avoiding racism. This is ridiculous, I'm not black.. Well, good. That will considerably shorten the amount of discussion we have on how you caused your own problems then.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 11:00:43 GMT -5
This is ridiculous, I'm not black.. Well, good. That will considerably shorten the amount of discussion we have on how you caused your own problems then. It is funny you thought I was black though? Did you read my posts thinking "there is an angry black man"?
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 7, 2013 11:04:12 GMT -5
What action should the girl be taking responsibility for? You dress a certain way - accept what comes with it, including comments from strangers. The problem with this line of thinking is that dressing "a certain way" is to utterly subjective. When I was 11 a boy at school called me a slut. I was underweight, had not hit puberty, had never kissed anyone and was wearing leggings and an XL sweatshirt that covered my non-existent booty. The boy grew up in a polygamist mormon community and the girls dressed exactly like the ladies from Big Love or Little House on the Prarie. I am sure I did look inappropriate to him. Unless you wear a neck to ankle dress, you would also look inappropriate to him. If you wear pants, you dress "a certain way" according to people from many religions and cultures. Are you willing to accept what comes with that if someone with those beliefs choses to treat to accordingly?
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 7, 2013 11:07:15 GMT -5
Well, good. That will considerably shorten the amount of discussion we have on how you caused your own problems then. It is funny you thought I was black though? Did you read my posts thinking "there is an angry black man"? I thought you were black also because you referred to yourself as a "brother" a few times. One time, you said that the white ladies on this board were trying to keep a brother (again referring to yourself) down.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 11:11:29 GMT -5
Well, good. That will considerably shorten the amount of discussion we have on how you caused your own problems then. It is funny you thought I was black though? Did you read my posts thinking "there is an angry black man"? I don't remember exactly why I thought you were black, and freely admit my memory is not what it used to be. I wasn't trying to call you a certain race or insult you for being a certain race, but was just trying to find something that might resonate with you so that you might be able to understand how women might feel when people question how a woman's actions contributed to her being harassed or raped. Not sure I think of you as angry, necessarily, but I do read your posts as coming from someone who is rather caustic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 11:12:39 GMT -5
You dress a certain way - accept what comes with it, including comments from strangers. And this is what I fight against. The idea that if you dress a certain way you are responsible for other people's actions. so you think women/girls wearing skimpy or revealing clothes is okay anytime or anywhere?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 11:17:09 GMT -5
And this is what I fight against. The idea that if you dress a certain way you are responsible for other people's actions. so you think women/girls wearing skimpy or revealing clothes is okay anytime or anywhere? I'm not sure i understand the question?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 11:19:42 GMT -5
And this is what I fight against. The idea that if you dress a certain way you are responsible for other people's actions. so you think women/girls wearing skimpy or revealing clothes is okay anytime or anywhere? I'm saying that - assuming the outfit is legal and within the rules/regulations for that setting - whether I personally like an outfit, whether the outfit is inappropriate, whether the outfit has a huge "TRAMP" sticker across it should not be the primary focus of the debate here. The debate should be about whether the TSA agent's comments are acceptable, given his position and her age. By making the debate primarily about her outfit, her response and her statements, we are giving credence to the idea that she is responsible for causing any problems that she encounters.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 11:26:23 GMT -5
Again, to compare this to an incidence of racism, it would be OK to start a separate thread saying something like this "Racism is never OK. The person in the other thread who was yelling racist insults was wrong. On the other hand, if you were the parents of a black teenager, are there things you would try to teach him to avoid trouble?"
And in this case, if someone posted a separate thread saying something like "Sexism is never OK. Whether or not the TSA agent in that other thread was making sexist comments - a topic which is being hotly debated - are there things you'd teach your daughter to help her avoid being a victim?"
In that separate thread, I'd probably say that I would not want her to dress like I think the girl in the OP was probably dressed (without flannel cover shirt) in an airport. Yes, it's legal but also likely to cause problems out of proportion to the potential rewards she would receive. I'd teach a daughter that it's unsafe to accept drinks she did not see prepared or leave a drink unattended whether on a date or at a party. I'd teach a daughter that there are places she will not be safe and to please be careful.
But I wouldn't hijack a thread about what I consider to be a sexist comment by discussing what the minor girl did to provoke said comment.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 11:31:27 GMT -5
I guess, girl's wardrobe aside, I just don't see how TSA's comment was that insulting and damaging to the young damsel. That is really sad.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 11:41:23 GMT -5
I'm saying that - assuming the outfit is legal and within the rules/regulations for that setting - whether I personally like an outfit, whether the outfit is inappropriate, whether the outfit has a huge "TRAMP" sticker across it should not be the primary focus of the debate here.
the TSA guy made a comment.....was it wrong....probably
was it DESERVED? probably....but that isnt his call to make
same as the teenage guy running around showing the crack of his ass, because he cant find a belt, or buy pants that actually fit him
same as the girl who dresses like a prostitute/tramp because she has no respect for herself
my main question would be...."did the TSA guy's comment cross the line?"
was he trying to be helpful or hurtful?
as my employee, i would write him up, and tell him to keep his trap shut from now on.....
but i also understand where he is coming from
and if you think that girls/women dressing provocatively has no bearing on how she is treated, you would be wrong
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