kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2013 21:58:06 GMT -5
I don't disagree that predatory men using clothing as an excuse or situations to their advantage are wrong. Absolutely they are in the wrong. But the fact is that we, as women, can't trust that all men will be gentleman or take for granted that we will be safe just because we should be able to wear whatever, go wherever, drink whatever .... A good offense is the best defense. I'd rather my daughter not put herself in a bad position to begin with rather than rely on the fact that no one will take advantage of a situation.
As far as the "jump," well, that's kind of how conversations evolve around here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 22:42:04 GMT -5
It would have mattered to me whether she was in reasonable clothing vs. trying to be a Miley Cyrus look alike (think bad girl fuzzy underwear outfit).
Does that make me a bad parent?
Sure, I would expect my 15 year old to tell me about this & I'd be incensed and the momma bear would come out. I'd rip TSA a new one, but I would have made my kid send me a picture of themselves first!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 6, 2013 22:46:01 GMT -5
Milee, I see it completely differently. We don't really know why he said it. I just don't get the "insult and sexual harassment" in his statement at all.
And again, "you" can't have it both ways - you want to dress a certain way when you are 15, be prepared to deal with consequences of that, regardless that you are 15. You can't have rights without responsibilities
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Jul 6, 2013 23:25:19 GMT -5
After being raped once, and admitting myself in to the hospital, one staff member repeatedly questioned me about why I had gone out at that time (1AM). I didn't understand why for quite awhile. Later I found out that she does not go out alone, even to walk to her car after work, after it gets dark. In her opinion, I was not making rational decisions and choices, because I said a woman should be able to go out at any time of day, by themselves. I didn't live in a bad neighborhood or area. I still disagree with the idea that women should have to be escorted by a man, after it gets dark.
Men need to have or get control of themselves, not me.
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Jul 6, 2013 23:34:45 GMT -5
Milee, I see it completely differently. We don't really know why he said it. I just don't get the "insult and sexual harassment" in his statement at all. And again, "you" can't have it both ways - you want to dress a certain way when you are 15, be prepared to deal with consequences of that, regardless that you are 15. You can't have rights without responsibilities
15 year olds have limited rights and responsibilities. In this case, the father did not object to what his daughter had on, so he did what he believed a responsible father should do. That's how I see it anyway. I'm not saying that women should go around naked, and expect no consequences. BUT if she does go out naked, and a man does something inappropriate, HE should be prepared to deal with the consequences as well.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jul 7, 2013 2:29:15 GMT -5
Girls and women do have a right to dress any way they want and go where they want when they want without being attacked.
I was 18 in 1966 when mini skirts were in style and lived alone in Seattle. I often when out walking at night dressed in a mini skirt. I didn't have a car so often walked and had no fear because I was stupid. One night an old man was following me offering me money, I ignored him and kept walking, he kept upping the offer until he finally said that was all the money he had and gave up. I can't really blame him for thinking a young women out at night alone was looking for money from old men. Old women would warn me not to go out at night but I assured them I wasn't afraid of anything. Men had no right to attack me for being young and stupid and nobody did, I was lucky.
My niece's girl is a budding young women with down syndrome. She depends on her big brother to help take care of her. One day she came out of her room into the living room with older brother and his friends with her shirt tangled around her head and asked her brother for help. Her brother took her to her room and helped her, not one of his friends made fun of him or stared at her. She is a rather pretty 14 year old with the sense of a 3 year old when it comes to privacy. Some male someday may find her attractive but that will give him no right to treat her poorly even if she behaves poorly. We can't trust all men or boys will treat her with respect so she needs to be reminded to cover herself but since she doesn't have her act together try to only have her around decent people. She is now in special classes at school instead of main stream both academic but also because middle school boys may not treat her right, they would be wrong but that won't keep her safe.
The girl at the air port was showing more skin that the photo showed I think, she wasn't wearing the over shirt. She is in tight yoga pants and her belly is showing and maybe she was showing more cleavage. She was as wrong as I was at 18 wearing what was in fashion. It wasn't the worker's job to tell her to cover up but I don't think he was a pervert as much as warning her like the old women warned me. She was traveling without an adult so he may have felt he could let her know she was showing too much. He should have allowed her to proceed the way she was but if he was really concerned have a female coworker talk to her in private to save embarrassing her.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 7:24:25 GMT -5
Imagine a case where a black teenager is shot by police or a neighborhood watch volunteer. Would more than half the discussion be criticism of the black teen for walking around while black? You know, along the lines of "yes, racism is wrong, but it exists so the parents shouldn't try to come to the teen's rescue, they should teach the teen that people are going to judge based on how he looks and he needs to do everything he can to conceal who he is and not act threatening so people don't shoot him." Would anyone think that a good chunk of the population would not only say that but that this type of discussion would dominate the conversation?
When a male fan at a sporting event is beaten to death by opposing fans, would the majority of the discussion involve how the man who was beaten was probably acting like an ass and that since sports fans normally get riled up, he should have refrained from cheering, supporting his team or even wearing the colors of a team that might have angry fans?
We don't talk about how parents should teach their black teens that racism is wrong but they need to be the ones that take charge of protecting themselves any more than we talk about men protecting themselves from rabid fans by keeping absolutely silent during ball games. We don't say those things because they're ridiculous and wrong. We know racism is wrong and fan violence is wrong, so it's just wrong to put the onus on the victims and blame them for inciting that reaction.
We still as a society blame women for being attacked, though. We must, or it wouldn't be OK to devote so much time to examining how her actions contributed to the incident...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2013 7:36:42 GMT -5
Some one dropped the 15 year old off to the airport so I'm assuming someone had an idea of what she had on. Considering how people dress like slobs today even to fly, she looked okay. Better than most.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 7:41:33 GMT -5
Milee, are you serious?? You are comparing apples and oranges. In both of your examples, there was an action, and not only an action, but a very serious, harmful action. Are you saying that a guy making a comment, not even a threatening comment is the same thing
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 7:44:48 GMT -5
I guess, girl's wardrobe aside, I just don't see how TSA's comment was that insulting and damaging to the young damsel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 7:45:31 GMT -5
I will admit that I did evidently read the article too quickly and missed that her mom was involved, primarily because the article I read was celebrating what her father did . . . not what her parents did.
So let's change my opinion slightly. I find it upsetting not that her daddy rescued her from an unfortunate remark, but her parents did. The article didn't say that the TSA agent leered at her and made her feel sexually uncomfortable. It said he glared at her. He hurt her feelings. She was "shamed and furious." I only read Later's original link, not the other versions.
So it's another story about helicopter parents to the rescue. I remain unimpressed.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 7:46:03 GMT -5
Milee, are you serious?? You are comparing apples and oranges. In both of your examples, there was an action, and not only an action, but a very serious, harmful action. Are you saying that a guy making a comment, not even a threatening comment is the same thing I'm in no way equating the seriousness of being shot or beaten to death to having a TSA agent say something insulting. I'm making a point about our discussion on this board, the way incidents are covered and how society views the victim. Look at our discussion. It's obvious that society views racism, beating male sports fans and rape/sexual harassment as wrong. But it's only in respect to discussing rape/sexual harassment do we consider it acceptable to criticize or even discuss in detail how the victim caused their own problem. In other words, we view the victim of rape/sexual harassment as at least partially responsible. That's wrong and just as inappropriate as criticizing Trayvon Martin's parents for not instructing him to not walk around after dark for fear of being shot. We may debate in great detail whether or not Trayvon's death was caused by racism or not, but you don't see people out there criticizing Trayvon for walking around with a hoodie after dark or his parents for not teaching him that his very skin color may incite people enough to hurt him so he needs to either stay indoors or dress to conceal his threatening race.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 7:53:29 GMT -5
The idea that men are so weak that they can be driven to distraction – or violence – by what a woman wears is at the heart of rape culture. The suggestion to “cover up” implies that those who don’t are at least partly responsible for their own abuse at the hands of naturally predatory men.
First off I think the above statement is kind of stupid when applied to this & maybe in general.
Second off I believe that it's the father & mothers job to say what a young daughter can & can't wear in public. (unless it violates actual laws).
Third I have a REAL hard time believing that the picture shown was exactly what she was wearing when someone said something. Either the guy that spoke out is a nut or something we can't see is going on. Maybe coat off, no bra, with a thin white tee? Again, from what I see I think she was dressed nice. So I don't get it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 8:06:51 GMT -5
You are right, OldTex, that she wasn't dressed exactly as she is pictured. Outfits can be transformed rather quickly. I see this every day at school. In my generation, we rolled the waistbands of our skirts to get them shorter and unrolled them before we went home.
But her clothes aren't the point. The TSA agent made an inappropriate remark. I just don't see the parents as doing something heroic.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 8:33:50 GMT -5
Milee, I guess the start of our disagreement is that I don't view this kid as a victim in any way.
And for the record, I NEVER view victim of an actionable crime as a responsible one.
If a girl walks up to a guy shaking boobs in his face and he rapes her - HIS fault If you cheer at a football game calling the opposite team the worst players of the century and get beat up - not YOUR fault, but the guy's who beat you If you are a black kid walking around with your boom box in a white supremacist neighborhood and get beat up - not YOUR fault, but the white guy's.
To me there is a big difference between someone taking an action and saying things.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 7, 2013 8:44:12 GMT -5
The idea that men are so weak that they can be driven to distraction – or violence – by what a woman wears is at the heart of rape culture. The suggestion to “cover up” implies that those who don’t are at least partly responsible for their own abuse at the hands of naturally predatory men.First off I think the above statement is kind of stupid when applied to this & maybe in general. Second off I believe that it's the father & mothers job to say what a young daughter can & can't wear in public. (unless it violates actual laws). Third I have a REAL hard time believing that the picture shown was exactly what she was wearing when someone said something. Either the guy that spoke out is a nut or something we can't see is going on. Maybe coat off, no bra, with a thin white tee? Again, from what I see I think she was dressed nice. So I don't get it. Oldtex she doesn't have a tee shirt on at all, it is a cami which is a pretty form of underwear. I gaurantee that she didn't have the outer shirt on when she was walking around without her parents. And for the record those white camis, which my DD owns five probably, are totally see through. We live at the beach. It is totally common to see people in the grocery store wearing a string bikini with flip flops on their feet. Many times I has seen my DD wear that same cami to go to school and I will tell her to go back and put on a shirt over her cami. I am also under no illusions that she has never changed after she got out the house though. My point doing it though is that she needs to learn that something can be totally appropiate to wear one place yet totally wrong in another. Maybe some decade she will think I am not just crazy,
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 8:49:35 GMT -5
Yes, there is a huge difference between taking action and saying things. I wasn't equating the two. I just wanted to use examples that would be well enough known nationally that there would be national debate and large volumes of it so we were all reasonably familiar with the commentary, so that necessitated using fairly extreme examples.
If a black guy is walking in a redneck neighborhood and someone says a racist slur, it doesn't make national news and so there wouldn't be the body of public comment to examine. That's why I picked the Trayvon Martin case, not because being killed is the same level as serious as a comment.
But the point about victim blaming survives comparable examples as well. Take an imaginary case of the black guy walking and being called a potentially racist slur. Do you think that half or more of the debate about the incident would involve people criticizing the black guy for walking around while black or not wearing a suit to show he is a "good" black guy or that his parents were irresponsible to teach him to avoid racism by covering up and not walking alone after dark? Because we're spending hardly any time here debating if it's appropriate for the TSA to make remarks like the one that was made and spending a majority of time debating if the girl was the cause of the problem... something that wouldn't happen in cases of racism, etc. Because people understand racism isn't about the victim. Obviously, people still - at least subconsciously - believe that women are at least partly responsible if she is sexually harassed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 8:57:09 GMT -5
Taking action often starts with getting away with saying things...
A TSA is an authority figure with control over your person and actions... The bar is lays higher with people in that situation. This is not a helicopter parent situation. It's the same as a police officer stepping over a line.
Toomuchreality ... I agree with you. Women should be able to go out alone and dress as they like... Men should get in control of them selves.
That said, if my daughter were to be raped, I couldn't take away the pain of it by placing the blame squarely in the right corner. Just because I isnt your fault, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt you. So while I champion the right of women to do and wear what they please, and teach my son that there is never an excuse to act in a way consistent with a rape culture, I'd still advise my daughter to pay attention to her environment and the reality that men will not always control themselves as they should.
However, I would not expect her, at 15, to deal alone with an authority figure who is crossing the line.
Actually, at any age, if a TSA agent was saying something inappropriate to a woman, I'd hope those round her would take up the cause and say its unacceptable.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 9:10:29 GMT -5
OK, are we discussing this in general or as it pertains to this particular case?
I just can't get riled up behind this girl at all. I don't believe her, I think dad acted like a typical big shot, "I have money and press behind me, and my "little" girl is being attacked" ass. Bc I don't see anything about daddy going to the agent's supervisor, all I see is a lot of publicity and girl's pictures being blasted all over the place - all kinds of people discussing her outfits, etc. What exactly is that accomplishing?
And once again, I just don't believe this kid at all. I don't believe that comment was made to be insulting.
In general, though, race is not a choice. Whether you leave your house in your underwear is. So, again, I can't compare
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 9:21:57 GMT -5
If he said anything about how she was dressed, it was inappropriate. He was in a position of authority and that was outside his authority. Inappropriate. Obviously it had an impact on the girl.
It accomplished maybe TSA agents not feeling they have unlimited authority?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 9:24:03 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, I thought it would be interesting to compile some data on this discussion. (Yep, I'm a nerd.)
Even in a discussion where at least one person - me - was furiously beating a dead horse and trying to keep discussion focused on if the TSA action was wrong or not, the vast majority of discussion has instead centered on whether the woman's clothes, parents and actions were the problem.
I counted the posts and kept tallies of each time a sentiment concerned reviewing the TSA or society's actions. Could be a single sentence or group of sentences that aggregated to make a single point, but the focus of the group had to be on whether it's OK to blame the victim or whether the TSA actions were appropriate. I also kept a count of each time a sentiment concerned reviewing how the woman or her parents contributed or responded to the TSA statement.
Number of times comment referred to the woman, woman's actions, woman's clothes, how woman responded or how parents responded: 73 Number of times comment referred to TSA action or if society is blaming women for harassment/rape: 38
Results are through post #47 and some posts contained multiple points that were counted in both categories.
So does anybody really think that in the Trayvon Martin debate 66% of the debate would be about how Trayvon's action of not concealing his race or dressing black contributed or didn't to his own death and whether his parents were responsible for not teaching him how to make his blackness less threatening or stay inside so he wouldn't be attacked?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 9:27:20 GMT -5
People are talking rape, violence, etc.. This story is nothing about that. The poor girl got a talking to, boo hoo...
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 9:41:05 GMT -5
People are talking rape, violence, etc.. This story is nothing about that. The poor girl got a talking to, boo hoo... So you'll be OK with some new approaches I'll take to your future posts, then. When you post about a work situation where you think your company is discriminating against you because you're black, I'll question if you speak proper English or Ebonics. I'll then ask if you dress like a professional should or like a gangster, asking you to send pictures so we can all judge for ourselves. Then, I'll make sure you don't bring any stinky, greasy fried chicken to work grossing your coworkers out and leaving grease in the break room. After we've debated that for a while, we will talk about how you handled your complaint; were you appropriately servile or did your complaint show you're an angry black man? If it goes on, we may even get to why your parents didn't teach you how to act white, at least have the decency to conceal that you're black or not bother to apply for professional jobs, since after all racism does exist and by not putting yourself in situations where you can avoid it, you're at least partly to blame when you experience it. We'll spend 2/3 of the time examining if you being black, not dressing to conceal your blackness or how you handle being black and relating to others is what is causing the problem. I'm sure you'll be very receptive to this examination and all the helpful tips you'll receive about how you play a part in avoiding racism.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 9:45:20 GMT -5
People are talking rape, violence, etc.. This story is nothing about that. The poor girl got a talking to, boo hoo... MMC, you're right that a comment isn't equal to violence. It is hyperbole to claim that she is injured in the same way a person raped or beaten is injured. My post was addressed to our incessant examination of what she was doing versus debating whether what the TSA agent said was OK.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 9:47:25 GMT -5
Milee, I can't speak for others, but for me - while agent's comment was not needed, I just don't see how it was all that bad. May be bc I don't view TSA as that big of an authority. May be bc I've read about TSA agent's actions that were far FAR worse than this one that. I just can't comment on his "bad behaviour". I don't see it as such.
So, if I don't think he did anything terrible, I am left with either not commenting on the thread at all or commenting on actions of another person involved who I do think over-reacted and whose father didn't act appropriately.
And as far as TM case - well, I might be the only person in US who really is not following that case. All I know is that a black kid got shot and the guy who shot him is going through a trial of the century. So, I can't comment on that either
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 9:51:41 GMT -5
Milee, I can't speak for others, but for me - while agent's comment was not needed, I just don't see how it was all that bad. May be bc I don't view TSA as that big of an authority. May be bc I've read about TSA agent's actions that were far FAR worse than this one that. I just can't comment on his "bad behaviour". I don't see it as such. So, if I don't think he did anything terrible, I am left with either not commenting on the thread at all or commenting on actions of another person involved who I do think over-reacted and whose father didn't act appropriately. But you could just post and say that - the TSA agent's comments weren't needed, but weren't bad and that her parents are making a big deal out of nothing. And I wouldn't have been beating this dead horse... Heck we could even spend a lot of time debating if the TSA comments were or were not harassment. None of that requires discussing the girl at all. Instead you (and everybody else, I'm not singling you out, heck I did it, too), spent most of your time discussing if the girl caused a problem and if there was a problem if it was the girl's fault. That's what is disappointing. It's subtle but until that societal mindset changes, I don't see how we can get major changes in the rate of sexual harassment, rape, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 9:56:57 GMT -5
Thank you southernsusana -- its easy to get emotional when we are talking about a "poor defenseless teenage girl" and a "creepy old man". Appearance in general affects how we are treated -- whether we have a dozen piercings, or unkempt hair. People in suits get more respect than people in rags. And yes, men like to look. Yes men like to look. But something rarely addressed is that women like to show so that they can be looked at. Further more young girls (like this one) are just beginning to understand their "power" & OFTEN dress in such a way that they show to much for their age. In my younger days I have gone out on dates with girls that had I been their father I would have NEVER let them out of the house showing that much. The father in this story is approaching it psychologically in his answer as in it's a mans rape thought that is at fault here. Well that can go the other way. A 15 year old girl is validated by her self worth by having men stare at her body in a lustful way. That has nothing to do with rape but it does have something to do with the mentality of a young impressionable girl & her values later in life. You could argue that by letting her out of the house showing too much he is paving the way for a stripper career. Not saying that's true, just saying that if the father wanted to argue about it the other side of the coin has just as good of a argument.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2013 9:59:57 GMT -5
I am not justifying my comments, bc I stand behind them, but wanted to explain to you the reason behind them - in case you want to do any future studies My comments about the girl and her father were made bc I REALLY don't like when people don't take responsibility for their actions. I think she blew things way out of proportion. I think he did the same, only worse - he is coming off as some hero guy, which in my opinion he is far from it. I usually comment on threads if I have something really nice to say about a poster/action/incident or to voice my disapproval. TSA didn't require much of either, so I didn't comment much about him. But obviously I had plenty to say about the other two
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 7, 2013 10:04:01 GMT -5
Miles......not the same thing, but similar....
Not that long ago, my sister got sent home from work for being inappropriately dressed. She was not provocatively dressed, but what she wore was not appropriate for the climate of the office......she was wearing way more casual clothes than her contemporaries. Oh, and she was making $100k at the time.
Part of the problem was that she had just had a child, so the wardrobe that fit was limited. This was also a new job, where the culture was much more formal than her past job. This does not excuse her actions, she should have been waaaay more aware, both when she interviewed, and her first few days of work.
My point, is that you are going to be judged as to how appropriate you are clothed your entire life. Most are not going to say anything, so when someone does I think it comes as a shock.
Like others, I suspect what she wore through security was not what she sent home to daddy.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2013 10:08:10 GMT -5
I am not justifying my comments, bc I stand behind them, but wanted to explain to you the reason behind them - in case you want to do any future studies
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