swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jul 9, 2013 10:37:32 GMT -5
::Women should have the same choice as men here - to wear what they want and not be publicly judged or shamed for it. :: Are you saying men have this right? Or that men SHOULD have this right and women should share in that right? Because men certainly don't have this right today. Yeah, because if you wear manpris, we are totally going to rag on you.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 9, 2013 10:39:41 GMT -5
If someone left their (sans car alarm) Phantom unlocked with diamonds and chains on the front seat in the middle of a crime-infested neighborhood, and said car was broken into or stolen, would most people really say "OMG, that is HORRIBLE! Those terrible thieves!"? Or would the car owner hear a healthy amount of "why was your car unlocked? why was it parked there? why were there valuables in plain view?"? I don't get why this is different. Sure, it would be wonderful to live in a world where every neighborhood is safe, where you can walk alone down any street at any time of day without fear, where you can leave your car and house doors unlocked, where you can send your kids out to play without concern, etc. etc. But we don't live in that world. We lock our doors and we monitor our kids and loved ones because there are some sick people out there. get out the burkas ladies - don't leave those valuables in plain sight. And this is why I compared harassing someone based on their sex to racial discrimination. They aren't the same thing, but are similar in that in each case, the victim can't change what they fundamentally are - they are a woman and/or they are a minority. You can choose to lock up or hide valuables, but you can't change the fact that you are a woman. To expect women to cover up (which is a nice way of saying that her very person is so tempting or offensive that it must be concealed) is a form of discriminating against her because she is a woman.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 9, 2013 10:42:03 GMT -5
Most of my pants are those disgusting, whorish yoga pants that probably show the actual shape of my tempting booty. OK, OK, so I'm wearing a very short skirt right now, but since I'm sitting at home is that acceptable or should I cover up in case the lawn guys arrive, catch a glimpse of me through a window and feel compelled to break in? Liar! NO ONE wears those kinds of clothes around the house. NO ONE wears those kind of clothes "for themselves". You are clearly "putting it out there" for attention. I'm sure one poor squirrel has fallen out of the tree distracted as they caught sight of you. What's your problem, you squirrel-killing she devil? Have some self-respect! Funny you should mention the dang squirrels. I do spend a ridiculous amount of my day shooing them away from the bird feeder outside the picture window. If only I had known that the mere sight of my unclad gams would be enough to distract the little boogers...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 10:42:21 GMT -5
Are you saying men have this right?
The guy I saw sitting in his front lawn with no shirt and bigger boobs than I have certainly seems to think so.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 9, 2013 10:44:44 GMT -5
If someone left their (sans car alarm) Phantom unlocked with diamonds and chains on the front seat in the middle of a crime-infested neighborhood, and said car was broken into or stolen, would most people really say "OMG, that is HORRIBLE! Those terrible thieves!"? Or would the car owner hear a healthy amount of "why was your car unlocked? why was it parked there? why were there valuables in plain view?"? I don't get why this is different. Sure, it would be wonderful to live in a world where every neighborhood is safe, where you can walk alone down any street at any time of day without fear, where you can leave your car and house doors unlocked, where you can send your kids out to play without concern, etc. etc. But we don't live in that world. We lock our doors and we monitor our kids and loved ones because there are some sick people out there. I don’t think that dressing like a normal teenager in a tank top and yoga paints with a big flannel shirt qualifies as really idiotic decision making like the example you are using. Nor had she traipsed herself to a bad neighborhood where bad things might reasonably be expected to happen, she was in a regular public place that she needed to be in to catch a flight. And while in your example people may say to the driver of the car “hey that was a dumb thing to do”, I don’t believe they would be attempting to justify the thief’s behavior in any way. It wouldn’t be that he was trying to be helpful and teach the driver of that car a grandfatherly lesson, nor would we assume he just couldn’t help himself. But even if wearing a tank top while female created reasonable expectation to get hassled – should that be behavior we are teaching our 15 year old girls to shut the fuck up and deal with? I agree that learning to blow things off can sometimes be a valuable life skill. But learning to say “it’s not okay for someone to talk to me like that” is also a valuable life skill. Teaching girls that being quiet and submissive and taking what you get all the time doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 9, 2013 10:45:25 GMT -5
If someone left their (sans car alarm) Phantom unlocked with diamonds and chains on the front seat in the middle of a crime-infested neighborhood, and said car was broken into or stolen, would most people really say "OMG, that is HORRIBLE! Those terrible thieves!"? Or would the car owner hear a healthy amount of "why was your car unlocked? why was it parked there? why were there valuables in plain view?"? I don't get why this is different. Sure, it would be wonderful to live in a world where every neighborhood is safe, where you can walk alone down any street at any time of day without fear, where you can leave your car and house doors unlocked, where you can send your kids out to play without concern, etc. etc. But we don't live in that world. We lock our doors and we monitor our kids and loved ones because there are some sick people out there. I don't get it either. Seems to me that there is a middle ground between exposing oneself and wearing a burqua. Like using a bit of simple common sense - and this applies to both sexes. The over the top dramatic breast beating posts rather surprise me as well. Teenagers don't magically wake up one morning as mature adults. They learn - by experience. Parents who charge in on the white horse and deal with every little nusiance of life are doing their children no good. Which, I believe, was susanna's initial response. What is this girl going to do later when she is seriously harrassed -- and maybe her livlihood is threatened? Text daddy?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 9, 2013 10:50:47 GMT -5
Or hmmm...how about to go to the supervisor/someone that had authority over the person that is harassing her - like her parents did! At 15 I don't think it would have even crossed my mind that when you have a complaint against someone while they're doing their job to ask to speak to their manager. But I saw my parents speak to the person in charge when I was a teen and something was wrong and I learned to do it myself once I was out on my own. After seeing her parents handle it my speaking to this guys manager, she should know what to do next time it happens.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 10:51:02 GMT -5
What is this girl going to do later when she is seriously harrassed -- and maybe her livlihood is threatened?
Inform her boss? The authorities? Or is that being a tattle tale princess too?
For a 15 year old, at least for non YM posters, your parents ARE the authority figure in your life.
Yes I know they should have told her suck it up buttercup if it upset you that much you talk to her supervisor, that's proper YM approved parenting.
You have no clue if her parents charge in all the time, that's YM bias. There are things I as a parent choose to intervene on and things I don't. You may disagree and think I am raising a spoiled brat but you aren't my kid's parent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 10:52:11 GMT -5
wow, is it Put Words In Jen's Mouth Day already? Tme really flies, huh?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 9, 2013 10:55:16 GMT -5
If someone left their (sans car alarm) Phantom unlocked with diamonds and chains on the front seat in the middle of a crime-infested neighborhood, and said car was broken into or stolen, would most people really say "OMG, that is HORRIBLE! Those terrible thieves!"? Or would the car owner hear a healthy amount of "why was your car unlocked? why was it parked there? why were there valuables in plain view?"? I don't get why this is different. Sure, it would be wonderful to live in a world where every neighborhood is safe, where you can walk alone down any street at any time of day without fear, where you can leave your car and house doors unlocked, where you can send your kids out to play without concern, etc. etc. But we don't live in that world. We lock our doors and we monitor our kids and loved ones because there are some sick people out there. I don't get it either. Seems to me that there is a middle ground between exposing oneself and wearing a burqua. Like using a bit of simple common sense - and this applies to both sexes. The over the top dramatic breast beating posts rather surprise me as well. Teenagers don't magically wake up one morning as mature adults. They learn - by experience. Parents who charge in on the white horse and deal with every little nusiance of life are doing their children no good. Which, I believe, was susanna's initial response. What is this girl going to do later when she is seriously harrassed -- and maybe her livlihood is threatened? Text daddy? She had clothes on - it does not appear that she was "exposing herself". I'm not sure why we are now referring to her like she was a flasher. So she was in this middle ground between exposing herself and wearing a burqa, but that wasn't good enough for some TSA guy. I think we should focus less on expecting 15 year old girls to be able to deal calmly and maturely with being harassed and focus more on expecting better from grown men who make bad choices to harass them.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2013 10:58:53 GMT -5
::I think we should focus less on expecting 15 year old girls to be able to deal calmly and maturely with being harassed and focus more on expecting better from grown men who make bad choices to harass them. ::
Because clearly anytime anyone anywhere comments on anything you do, you are being "harassed". This is offensive to people who have dealt with real harassment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 10:59:54 GMT -5
I actually think focusing on both would be a good idea. Never too early to learn how to deal with jerks.
and I can't believe I actually have to say this because I know you all are not that dense, but nowhere in my post did I say women should wear burqas NOR that the lack of a burqa will bring on harassment. I said that we expect to and do take proper precautions in all other facets of our lives without much issue - why is this any different?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 11:00:03 GMT -5
I think we should focus less on expecting 15 year old girls to be able to deal calmly and maturely with being harassed and focus more on expecting better from grown men who make bad choices to harass them.
And expect better from them as employees. He has the right to think whatever he wants and say whatever he wants, but you don't do it while you're in uniform.
When I was a server if I'd approached someone's table and told your kid to "wear a bra your nipples are showing" I am pretty sure my manager would have been brought into the situation. Nobody would have cared that I was "looking out for her best interest". You're paying me to serve you, not offer social commentary.
The TSA agent is being paid to screen for security threats, not decide how appropriate someone's attire is or offer commentary on it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2013 11:01:27 GMT -5
Are you saying men have this right?
The guy I saw sitting in his front lawn with no shirt and bigger boobs than I have certainly seems to think so. we was looking for attention and validation, Drama. But - he also has no self -respect. You have carte blanche to say anything! It's a free country, it's your right! The obvious is to tell yell loudly across the street to him to get a manziere or a bro , cuz it's even more fun when others here and gawk at him to see what is up..... You think this guy has never heard "put a shirt on" by anyone? Which is the equivalent of "cover up". But I doubt he ran around crying about being harassed. Pretending that anyone ACTUALLY has the right to dress however they want without being judged is pretty laughable. It doesn't matter what gender you are, looking like an idiot, or slut, or prep, or goth, or whatever is going to get you judged. Heck even dressing "normally" might have you judged as someone boring.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 9, 2013 11:05:24 GMT -5
People think I'm an uptight professional when they see me. Even when I'm not in my work clothes. Everything I wear is structured and "square." I don't have anything breezy or flowy or fun.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2013 11:06:19 GMT -5
::And expect better from them as employees. He has the right to think whatever he wants and say whatever he wants, but you don't do it while you're in uniform. ::
Totally agree. As an employee at work you keep your mouth shut on commentary about most things.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 9, 2013 11:07:28 GMT -5
I actually think focusing on both would be a good idea. Never too early to learn how to deal with jerks. and I can't believe I actually have to say this because I know you all are not that dense, but nowhere in my post did I say women should wear burqas NOR that the lack of a burqa will bring on harassment. I said that we expect to and do take proper precautions in all other facets of our lives without much issue - why is this any different? And I never said or implied that you did. I disagreed with your analogy because you were trying to equate wearing a tank top with a series of really bad decisions that any reasonable person would expect to have bad consequences.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 9, 2013 11:08:15 GMT -5
I don't get it either. Seems to me that there is a middle ground between exposing oneself and wearing a burqua. Like using a bit of simple common sense - and this applies to both sexes. The over the top dramatic breast beating posts rather surprise me as well. Teenagers don't magically wake up one morning as mature adults. They learn - by experience. Parents who charge in on the white horse and deal with every little nusiance of life are doing their children no good. Which, I believe, was susanna's initial response. What is this girl going to do later when she is seriously harrassed -- and maybe her livlihood is threatened? Text daddy? She had clothes on - it does not appear that she was "exposing herself". I'm not sure why we are now referring to her like she was a flasher. So she was in this middle ground between exposing herself and wearing a burqa, but that wasn't good enough for some TSA guy. I think we should focus less on expecting 15 year old girls to be able to deal calmly and maturely with being harassed and focus more on expecting better from grown men who make bad choices to harass them. We don't actually know what she was wearing. The photo does not look like any airport I've seen - She may not have been dressed that way at all.. We've also only heard her version. That point was made pages and pages ago. Teen agers (girls and boys) often do omit details that might put then in a negative light and they (girls especially) tend to over-dramatize. If she was actually wearing what the photo depicted, the guy (if he really said what she claimed) would have to be nuts.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 9, 2013 11:08:34 GMT -5
Nobody has said the employee wasn't 100% wrong.
We have offered theories as to why he would do such a thing, but no one has stood behind him as it being the proper thing to do.
But, go ahead and believe what you want.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 9, 2013 11:11:14 GMT -5
I actually think focusing on both would be a good idea. Never too early to learn how to deal with jerks. and I can't believe I actually have to say this because I know you all are not that dense, but nowhere in my post did I say women should wear burqas NOR that the lack of a burqa will bring on harassment. I said that we expect to and do take proper precautions in all other facets of our lives without much issue - why is this any different? What should I wear to avoid harassment or assault? I am all about precautions and personal responsibility. The most common outfit worn by a rape victime is a t-shirt or sweatshirt and jeans, so I better not wear those things. Skirts are out because someone might take an inappropriate picture. What is left? Honestly, for those of you who think a woman can dress her way out of danger/harassment. What should we wear?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 11:12:09 GMT -5
Did hoops just agree with me on something? Pretending that anyone ACTUALLY has the right to dress however they want without being judged is pretty laughable
I agree to an extent we're all judged on our appearance and more so in certain situations than others. I can control how a potential employer views me by how I dress, for example. I can control what my appearance says about me in that situation. To go back to gdyva's dog perverts I can't control that some guy thinks it's okay to slide a camera under my skirt. I shouldn't have to wear pants all the time in the hopes that I won't have that happen. It can still happen in a dressing room, the bathroom, anywhere. Perverts are everywhere. I CAN not pet a stranger's dog and avoid the situation that way. But I shouldn't have to never wear a skirt to avoid it.
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nogooddeed
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Post by nogooddeed on Jul 9, 2013 11:14:12 GMT -5
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 9, 2013 11:15:24 GMT -5
We don't actually know what she was wearing. The photo does not look like any airport I've seen - She may not have been dressed that way at all.. We've also only heard her version. That point was made pages and pages ago. Teen agers (girls and boys) often do omit details that might put then in a negative light and they (girls especially) tend to over-dramatize. If she was actually wearing what the photo depicted, the guy (if he really said what she claimed) would have to be nuts. GG - You've said this a couple of times, and I have to disagree with you. I have been in a dozen airports in the past year, and every single one of them has a shop near the gates that look exactly like this. They all have the same cheap wood-like floor. They all have a giant rack of magazines and books along one side. They all have twirly racks of crap, including movies and such. In the back, you can see a display that includes a duffle bag, and the guy standing behind her is carrying a briefcase. He is standing next to the obligatory table with "New Releases" and "Best Sellers" on it, all propped up on those plastic stands. She is carrying a drink from a generic concession stand. I can't really think of many stores in real life that have a huge rack of magazines, a table of books, DVDs and travel gear in such a small area. But, every airport has that. I think she went through security, was pissed, vented with her friends. She was texting Dad. Her friends went into the store to buy a candy bar, she went with them. She said "Take my picture with my phone so I can show my Dad." And I 100% believe this is in an airport.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 9, 2013 11:15:48 GMT -5
Nobody has said the employee wasn't 100% wrong. We have offered theories as to why he would do such a thing, but no one has stood behind him as it being the proper thing to do. But, go ahead and believe what you want. Damn it I'm sucked back in. Correct everyone has said he was wrong. But when I ask what she should have done, the response was blow it off and take it. Ok so someone does something wrong and we are suppose to just take it so he can do it to the next person?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2013 11:16:57 GMT -5
Also, based on the linked article which shows the photo of hte girl in her outfit, telling any girl she needs to "cover up", regardless of what she's wearing, is the actual foundation of rape culture.
Also anyone who thinks a girl is dressed in too little has "sick thoughts". So anyone who sees a show like toddlers and tiaras and thinks "that's wrong" is really just a pervert who wants to do sick things with those kids, otherwise you'd never even consider that they are dressed too provacatively, it's all in your sick, sick mind. lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 11:17:15 GMT -5
I actually think focusing on both would be a good idea. Never too early to learn how to deal with jerks. and I can't believe I actually have to say this because I know you all are not that dense, but nowhere in my post did I say women should wear burqas NOR that the lack of a burqa will bring on harassment. I said that we expect to and do take proper precautions in all other facets of our lives without much issue - why is this any different? And I never said or implied that you did. I disagreed with your analogy because you were trying to equate wearing a tank top with a series of really bad decisions that any reasonable person would expect to have bad consequences. a series of really bad decisions according to who? As a car owner, shouldn't I have the right to do what I want with my own car (as long as it's legal) without the expectation that it will get ransacked/stolen? I am not commenting specifically about this girl. Hell, even if she was just wearing a tank top and yoga pants, I've seen WAAAAAAAAAAY worse on girls. I am making a general statement about precautions that we (unfortunately) have to take in this world.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2013 11:20:39 GMT -5
::Ok so someone does something wrong and we are suppose to just take it so he can do it to the next person? ::
When "do it to the next person" is all of "comment on your clothing"...yeah probably. People do TONS of "wrong" things all day, every day...not all of them require you to "do something" so that "it doesn't happen again".
If you really want to do something, telling them you think they're doing wrong is about all most of us can really do. What am I supposed to do with the guy who jaywalks? Hit him with my car? He's doing something wrong, but it doesn't mean i have to "do something" so that he'll stop jaywalking.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 9, 2013 11:21:10 GMT -5
I'm fine with them filing a complaint to TSA. I just don't think this guy should be given a crown for "Dad of the Year" - especially by himself.
This didn't need to be a big media event. Just a complaint. It doesn't warrant national outrage.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 9, 2013 11:22:14 GMT -5
::Ok so someone does something wrong and we are suppose to just take it so he can do it to the next person? :: When "do it to the next person" is all of "comment on your clothing"...yeah probably. People do TONS of "wrong" things all day, every day...not all of them require you to "do something" so that "it doesn't happen again". If you really want to do something, telling them you think they're doing wrong is about all most of us can really do. What am I supposed to do with the guy who jaywalks? Hit him with my car? He's doing something wrong, but it doesn't mean i have to "do something" so that he'll stop jaywalking. Does the person who jaywalks have the authority to pat you down? Detain you. Etc? They talked to his supervisor. I don't see how this is an overreaction everyone seems to think it is.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 11:23:33 GMT -5
I am making a general statement about precautions that we (unfortunately) have to take in this world.
But you can't control everyone and nor should you. Again with the dog pervert example to "protect" myself appearance wise I should always wear pants. Since there are idiots running around with camera phones I shouldn't wear a skirt since they can't help themselves.
I CAN not approach strangers or if a stranger apporaches me bend down to pet his dog. That's an easy precaution I can take that is within my control.
I shouldn't be "asking for it" if I walk out of the house in a skirt. I shouldn't be told that "well if you had just worn pants that guy wouldn't have done that".
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