thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 17:01:48 GMT -5
I did have you pegged as drunk and slutty, but I was mumbling, so you couldn't hear my complete thoughts.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 17:12:52 GMT -5
I wonder if we can get to a society where no one ever says or does anything to offend anyone, ever. And then our children won't need to learn to deal with anything, because everyone will behave perfectly.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 17:15:00 GMT -5
I wonder if we can get to a society where no one ever says or does anything to offend anyone, ever. And then our children won't need to learn to deal with anything, because everyone will behave perfectly. mommy and daddy will fix it all Fixed.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 17:19:45 GMT -5
I wonder if we can get to a society where no one ever says or does anything to offend anyone, ever. And then our children won't need to learn to deal with anything, because everyone will behave perfectly. mommy and daddy will fix it all Fixed. So what do you think would have happened if she had asked to talk to the supervisor herself? Do you think she would have gotten anywhere? Heaven forbid a minor ask her parent's for help. WTF. The only thing people have explicitly said her parents did wrong was blog about it. But apparently she is in the wrong for bringing it up to them. JFC, that is what you want your kids to do. Yes there are things they have to learn to deal with, but lets start with the TSA agent. WTF.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 17:21:42 GMT -5
Certainly the blog was a narcissistic way to deal with the problem.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 17:22:51 GMT -5
Certainly the blog was a narcissistic way to deal with the problem. Which her dad did (not her) and did it after the fact.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 8, 2013 17:24:39 GMT -5
Yes, people have said it was wrong over and over again...and in the same breath said that maybe she should think about what she was wearing if she didn't want those kind of comments. it's like they can't stop. He was wrong but she....her parent......her father...... Pot meet kettle.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 17:28:33 GMT -5
So what do you think would have happened if she had asked to talk to the supervisor herself? Do you think she would have gotten anywhere? Heaven forbid a minor ask her parent's for help. WTF. The only thing people have explicitly said her parents did wrong was blog about it. But apparently she is in the wrong for bringing it up to them. JFC, that is what you want your kids to do. Yes there are things they have to learn to deal with, but lets start with the TSA agent. WTF. It would have been silly for her to ask to talk to a supervisor. She should have rolled her eyes and gone her way. 15 is not too young to learn that annoyances happen all the time and you either deal with them or you shrug it off. I was only a year older (I was 16) when I rode a bus for 5 days (and nights)from San Francisco to West Virginia. One night, a drunk got on, sat next to me and began leaning into me. I got up, changed my seat (a window seat by a nice old lady) and that was that. I did not text my parents about this creep harrassing me (and he really WAS harrassing me) and I did not go to the bus driver. I dealt with it. End of story.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 17:30:23 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that at 15 I would have told my parents about it... she probably did it more in the way of "was this okay or did I do something wrong?" point of view vs. "little princess running to daddy"... most teens that have been raised with manners aren't going to confront an adult in a position of authority or ask to speak to the supervisor... let's get real. Actually the report I read was that she texted her parents that she was "furious" that the agent had made her "feel like a slut".
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 17:48:42 GMT -5
Certainly the blog was a narcissistic way to deal with the problem. Which her dad did (not her) and did it after the fact. Yes - and I'm not celebrating his fatherlyness. He might be an awesome Dad, but the more you congratulate yourself and lecture others that they should be a great Dad in the exact way that you are, the less likely it is that I will believe what an awesome Dad you are.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 8, 2013 17:50:21 GMT -5
Actually, quite a few TSA agents are Muslims, oldtex. It's a job they can get, since many aren't highly educated. This is perhaps the most offensive post on this thread.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 8, 2013 17:52:06 GMT -5
Actually, quite a few TSA agents are Muslims, oldtex. It's a job they can get, since many aren't highly educated. This is perhaps the most offensive post on this thread. How is it offensive, SK? It certainly isn't meant to be. I lived in Islamic countries for 20 years, and have nothing against Islam.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 17:54:44 GMT -5
Actually the report I read was that she texted her parents that she was "furious" that the agent had made her "feel like a slut". She has every right to tell her parents whatever the hell she wants to.... And at 16.. there is no way in hell I'd ride on a dirty bus for 5 days by myself... I won't even do it now at 43... blech! No one claimed that she did not have the right to tell her parents. And that includes the right to present herself in whatever light she wanted and to exaggerate if she wanted. And in 1961, flying cross country was prohibitvely expensive - lots more people took the bus. Not many 16 year old girls, though. I actually WAS independent. Unlike this princess whose father claims is "furiously independent".....
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 18:13:27 GMT -5
MM - Maybe it is because they then went and took up the matter with TSA, instead of telling her to deal? I'm not sure either. We have made up all sorts of shit that surrounds this story. I love the fiction. We are a bunch of monkeys with keyboards, and we have almost written an act of Shakespeare.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 8, 2013 18:17:18 GMT -5
This is perhaps the most offensive post on this thread. How is it offensive, SK? It certainly isn't meant to be. I lived in Islamic countries for 20 years, and have nothing against Islam. Umm, because many people of EVERY religion aren't educated. In fact, only 1/3 of Americans have a college degree, so MOST people, regardless of religion, aren't educated. www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/education/a-sharp-rise-in-americans-with-college-degrees.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0Perhaps instead of saying this: You could have said this: "It's an easy job to get since it doesn't require a degree." If I said "X job is easy for Blacks to get because many of them aren't highly educated" I would get reamed up one end and down the other. I'm surprised you don't see it.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 18:18:36 GMT -5
I'm LMAO at the image of "a bunch of monkeys with keyboards".. I wanna be the drunk monkey! And I think an act of Shakespeare is shorter (and easier to follow) than this silly thread... hey hey hey - I put a lot of work into it!!!!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 8, 2013 18:27:10 GMT -5
LOL
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 8, 2013 18:33:28 GMT -5
He shouldn't have said anything, but she got what she deserved for being a big slutty mc-slutface princess crybaby. Got it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 8, 2013 18:41:15 GMT -5
How is it offensive, SK? It certainly isn't meant to be. I lived in Islamic countries for 20 years, and have nothing against Islam. Umm, because many people of EVERY religion aren't educated. In fact, only 1/3 of Americans have a college degree, so MOST people, regardless of religion, aren't educated. www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/education/a-sharp-rise-in-americans-with-college-degrees.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0Perhaps instead of saying this: You could have said this: "It's an easy job to get since it doesn't require a degree." If I said "X job is easy for Blacks to get because many of them aren't highly educated" I would get reamed up one end and down the other. I'm surprised you don't see it. Of course, many people (religion not a factor) aren't educated, SK. In this incidence, however, we're talking about a TSA agent who (purportedly) took an aggressive stance toward a young woman with whose choice of clothing he disagreed. The reason I used an Islamic as an example was because of the possibility the agent was incensed due to his belief system. I could as well have used a fundamentalist Christian as an example, just as easily. One of the reasons I used an Islamic is ... they do have trouble finding work if they don't have a degree. That's because of the prejudice against them in this country. That's not true of fundamentalist Christians, in the vast majority of cases. I could have said a lot of things. I could have written a tome. I don't always word things correctly to express what I'm trying to say. That's probably the case here. I do not, however, think less of someone because they are Muslim. I've got Muslim friends with whom I've corresponded for well over 30 years. If you took my post as an insult to these folks, I'm sorry. My wording may not have been the best; however, my post was specifically addressed to another person. That person was the reason I chose the group I chose. I'll let it go at that.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 19:02:25 GMT -5
So what do you think would have happened if she had asked to talk to the supervisor herself? Do you think she would have gotten anywhere? Heaven forbid a minor ask her parent's for help. WTF. The only thing people have explicitly said her parents did wrong was blog about it. But apparently she is in the wrong for bringing it up to them. JFC, that is what you want your kids to do. Yes there are things they have to learn to deal with, but lets start with the TSA agent. WTF. It would have been silly for her to ask to talk to a supervisor. She should have rolled her eyes and gone her way. 15 is not too young to learn that annoyances happen all the time and you either deal with them or you shrug it off. I was only a year older (I was 16) when I rode a bus for 5 days (and nights)from San Francisco to West Virginia. One night, a drunk got on, sat next to me and began leaning into me. I got up, changed my seat (a window seat by a nice old lady) and that was that. I did not text my parents about this creep harrassing me (and he really WAS harrassing me) and I did not go to the bus driver. I dealt with it. End of story. And if there hadn't been the another seat available? Of course you didn't text your parents, the technology wasn't available. If you'd had to sit with him for several hrs, what would have done then? The one time I road the Greyhound, the bus was completely full until we stopped off at the army base. In an age when you have instant contact to express your feelings, it would be different. Of course, my mom wasn't thrilled with a couple trips I took when I was in late high school and college, I wouldn't have told her of any incidents because she didn't want me to go in the first place. The drunk on the bus is not an authority figure. He doesn't have the legal authority to detain you or pat you down. If what the TSA agent did was inappropriate, and you have said it was, then why shouldn't it be reported?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 8, 2013 19:02:31 GMT -5
hey hey hey - I put a lot of work into it!!!! Err... uhhh... I mean.. this painstakingly factually documented and enlightening thread... Now I KNOW you are completely drunk.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 8, 2013 19:12:45 GMT -5
And if there hadn't been the another seat available? Of course you didn't text your parents, the technology wasn't available
I'd have stood - likely near the driver.
The lack of technology meant that I had to figure out for myself what to do.
Perhaps thats part of the reasons we have threads about why 25 is the new 18?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 8, 2013 20:37:11 GMT -5
Oh you mean you would have involved the driver if there wasn't another seat available. I thought you were independent and solved your own problems? How does that work? I mean wouldn't the driver have asked why you were standing next to him? Of course the drunk on your bus couldn't legally detain you. He couldn't legally pat you down.
I'm out of here. I have apparently wasted why too much energy into wondering why a 15 year old texting her dad is a princess. But like I said according the GG's definition I must be one too. So WFT could I possibly know since I'm just a Daddy's little princess?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 9, 2013 9:00:23 GMT -5
Ok, I still just find this all so sad. A few thoughts I had last night.
- It disturbs me that, as a culture, we hold women responsible for men ogling or harassing. There is no reason that this must be true. There have been many times in my life when I was in a situation where I might "reasonably" expect to be harrassed - walking down the street in a little dress at the height of my hotness with bits hanging out all over the place - and I wasn't. Conversely, there were times in my life where I most definitely would not expect to be harassed - walking down the street in baggy jeans and a T, hungover with my hair slicked back - and some douchebag yelled at me from a passing car or a coffee shop. The difference here is not me, the difference here is that in one case, men looked at me and decided not to be an asshole, and in other cases, men looked at me and decided to be an asshole and insert himself into my life while I was walking down the street minding my own damn business. After incidents like that I felt angry and ashamed, even though I was literally doing nothing but walking down a street while female.
- This type of harassment varied from things like "nice tits, come suck my d*ck" to men telling me to "smile." Screw you, you smile. All of this, and the culture that tells men that behaving this way is acceptable and excusable if women look a certain way/dress a certain way/have certain physical characteristics, is just a way of telling a woman that she is not in her own world. She is public property. Her body is public property. The choices she makes aren't really hers, they belong to others and she is responsible for the reaction that others have to her.
- This is also where my issue with "modesty" and "self-respect" come in. The idea that if someone does not dress according to the standards any random person sets for them (within dress codes or bounds of the law) they are in some way defective, inviting trouble and judgement, or lacking respect for themselves.
- When we focus on what this girl was doing, or the probability that she was lying, or say "He was wrong BUT..." we are further perpetuating a world in which this girl's choices are not her own. Her body is not her own, it is simply a thing that is on display for men to react to - positively or negatively. And, for us to react to and pick apart. Despite how common harassment is for girls in school, on the street, etc., especially young girls who fit the beauty ideal, the default assumption for many posters here was that she was lying. That in and of itself should tell us something.
-Finally, it really really bugs me when other women say things like "Well I dealt with harassment and I survived, so this woman shouldn't have an issue." Well gee, me too. That doesn't mean that I think other girls should experience what I did. I have a lot of experiences that have made me who I am, but they aren't experiences I would choose for others as ways to build their character. I think that we should all be working for a world where when someone says "I was harassed/raped/mugged/bullied/whatever" that other people who have experienced that say "Me too. That's why I've stood up to things like that and tried change the culture that allows and encourages those things" instead of calling her a brat and a princess and overly sensitive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 9:06:12 GMT -5
not even sure i should bring it up
wife told me about a new scam she heard on the news in last few days as we discussed this thread
guys with small dogs going around looking for "targets"
uses dog to divert attention, and then uses camera phone to take unwanted photos up skirts, dresses, etc
so yes ladies....you can wear whatever you like.....
but please remember that there are perverts out there that WILL take advantage of any situation that they can find
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 9:09:47 GMT -5
After incidents like that I felt angry and ashamed, even though I was literally doing nothing but walking down a street while female
Well that is obviously you're problem. The proper response is to laugh and shrug it off. I love the idea that words "can't hurt" and you're somehow a ninny princess if they do. I had very nasty rumors spread about me in high school after my boyfriend broke up with me. The result of the rumors were guys coming up to solicit me. It was humilating since the things said were far from the truth and having random guys ask me to do "stuff" was very upsetting, especially when they called me a liar because they heard otherwise. I handled it the "proper" YM approved way, I never said anything to anybody, including my parents and just shut up and put with it. 20/20 hindsight I should have been a "princess" and involved adults, it would have made things stop sooner. Congratulations to all the posters who aren't weak will spineless twits who can shrug off any type of harassment. Just one more thing for YM-ers to feel superior about compared to everyone else.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 9, 2013 9:12:50 GMT -5
Ok, I still just find this all so sad. A few thoughts I had last night.
- It disturbs me that, as a culture, we hold women responsible for men ogling or harassing. There is no reason that this must be true. There have been many times in my life when I was in a situation where I might "reasonably" expect to be harrassed - walking down the street in a little dress at the height of my hotness with bits hanging out all over the place - and I wasn't. Conversely, there were times in my life where I most definitely would not expect to be harassed - walking down the street in baggy jeans and a T, hungover with my hair slicked back - and some douchebag yelled at me from a passing car or a coffee shop. The difference here is not me, the difference here is that in one case, men looked at me and decided not to be an asshole, and in other cases, men looked at me and decided to be an asshole and insert himself into my life while I was walking down the street minding my own damn business. After incidents like that I felt angry and ashamed, even though I was literally doing nothing but walking down a street while female.
- This type of harassment varied from things like "nice tits, come suck my d*ck" to men telling me to "smile." Screw you, you smile. All of this, and the culture that tells men that behaving this way is acceptable and excusable if women look a certain way/dress a certain way/have certain physical characteristics, is just a way of telling a woman that she is not in her own world. She is public property. Her body is public property. The choices she makes aren't really hers, they belong to others and she is responsible for the reaction that others have to her.
- This is also where my issue with "modesty" and "self-respect" come in. The idea that if someone does not dress according to the standards any random person sets for them (within dress codes or bounds of the law) they are in some way defective, inviting trouble and judgement, or lacking respect for themselves.
- When we focus on what this girl was doing, or the probability that she was lying, or say "He was wrong BUT..." we are further perpetuating a world in which this girl's choices are not her own. Her body is not her own, it is simply a thing that is on display for men to react to - positively or negatively. And, for us to react to and pick apart. Despite how common harassment is for girls in school, on the street, etc., especially young girls who fit the beauty ideal, the default assumption for many posters here was that she was lying. That in and of itself should tell us something.
-Finally, it really really bugs me when other women say things like "Well I dealt with harassment and I survived, so this woman shouldn't have an issue." Well gee, me too. That doesn't mean that I think other girls should experience what I did. I have a lot of experiences that have made me who I am, but they aren't experiences I would choose for others as ways to build their character. I think that we should all be working for a world where when someone says "I was harassed/raped/mugged/bullied/whatever" that other people who have experienced that say "Me too. That's why I've stood up to things like that and tried change the culture that allows and encourages those things" instead of calling her a brat and a princess and overly sensitive. Bravo!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 9, 2013 9:15:20 GMT -5
not even sure i should bring it up wife told me about a new scam she heard on the news in last few days as we discussed this thread guys with small dogs going around looking for "targets" uses dog to divert attention, and then uses camera phone to take unwanted photos up skirts, dresses, etc so yes ladies....you can wear whatever you like..... but please remember that there are perverts out there that WILL take advantage of any situation that they can find You shouldntlnhave brought it up. We know there are perverts out there. I'm still going to wear skirts.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 9, 2013 9:16:29 GMT -5
I'm still going to wear skirts.
The hem better touch the ground otherwise you deserve any attention you recieve. Ankles are a distraction and don't even get me started on calves/knees.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jul 9, 2013 9:18:19 GMT -5
I'm still going to wear skirts.
The hem better touch the ground otherwise you deserve any attention you recieve. Ankles are a distraction and don't even get me started on calves/knees. Yeah, I'm a whore deserving of harassment.
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