Make no mistake we are in a depression.

[bga4444]

Teranko
Message #1789 - 02/09/10 09:56 PM

What happens when China or what ever country decides to bypass the "US manufacturers, who are really no longer manufacturers" and sell directly to the US Retailers?

I`m more curious what`s going to happen if China hands the U.S. an eviction notice (in the form of an IOU)...

---

Teranko
Message #1790 - 02/10/10 12:24 AM



The Republicans seem quite adept at running up the deficit...

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1791 - 02/10/10 12:29 PM

I`m more curious what`s going to happen if China hands the U.S. an eviction notice (in the form of an IOU)...

If they do this they they bring themselves down with us - The bigger question should be are they in any way preparing themselves to survive such a scenario?

---

outaheresoon
Message #1792 - 02/10/10 01:08 PM

The Republicans seem quite adept at running up the deficit...

You did notice that the graph stops one month after Obama took office, didn't you? I'm not trying to justify what the Republicans have done, but let's be fair with the data. This is a politician thing, not a partisan thing.

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1793 - 02/10/10 01:39 PM

The Republicans seem quite adept at running up the deficit...

PS:

This chart is misleading in that it shows the post World War II draw down in the military machine built up for that war. The Reagan years were building up again after the Carter administration dismantled the Military and the same goes for after the Clinton years. Now Obama is spending like a food addict in a Candy Store! Charts can be read and interrupted in many ways so be careful what you are trying to say!

---

BGA4444
Message #1794 - 02/10/10 02:23 PM



Make no mistake unless you make $250,000+ annually the republican party does not represent you!

What this country needs is a truly conservative party. However, that party does not exist yet!

---

Teranko
Message #1795 - 02/10/10 03:46 PM

You did notice that the graph stops one month after Obama took office, didn't you?

Sure, but what choice did Obama have but to keep changing the IV bags (TARP) that Bush's administered as Wall Street continued to bleed when he took office?

---

Teranko
Message #1796 - 02/10/10 03:50 PM

Make no mistake unless you make $250,000+ annually the republican party does not represent you!

I couldn't agree more. They're the only ones whose taxes will increase as part of Obama's budget, but it's the masses earning less than that who are complaining on their behalf. Couldn't be that the GOP masses are being brainwashed by the likes of Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, etc., etc. could it?

---

Teranko
Message #1797 - 02/10/10 03:55 PM

This chart is misleading in that it shows the post World War II draw down in the military machine built up for that war.

Why does the US continue to spend as much as the rest of the entire world combined on the military? Smacks of Imperialism to me. Why not join the rest of the world and share the cost through the U.N.? Because corporate America is running the government and they want to do whatever they want, whenever they want. Unfortunately, they are able to hand the American taxpayer the tab.

Rank [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#] Country [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#] Spending ($ b.) [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#] World Share (%) [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#] · World Total 1464.0 100 1 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_States] United States 607.0 41.5 2 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army] China[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#fn_a] a 84.9 5.8 3 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_France] France 65.7 4.5 4 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armed_Forces] United Kingdom 65.3 4.5 5 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Russia] Russia[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#fn_a] a 58.6 4.0 6 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr] Germany 46.8 3.2 7 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces] Japan 46.3 3.2 8 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Italy] Italy 40.6 2.8 9 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Saudi_Arabia] Saudi Arabia 38.2 2.6 10 [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Armed_Forces] India 30.0 2.1

---

tp123
Message #1798 - 02/10/10 04:06 PM

your wrong. The only people making money are the brokers and idots like you.

---

outaheresoon
Message #1799 - 02/10/10 04:35 PM

Sure, but what choice did Obama have but to keep changing the IV bags (TARP) that Bush's administered as Wall Street continued to bleed when he took office?

Teranko:

Quit trying to make this partisan. All of the politicians are guilty of squandering our money. All of this was made possible by the private Federal Reserve, which enabled the politicians to over-spend and borrow, all to the delight of the private, international bankers. This incestuous relationship between the Fed, Treasury, and Wall Street, has to end. All of it has been upon the backs of the poor American worker, and the poor American worker has been pushed to the brink. Obama is nothing more than a puppet of the international bankers, just like his predatory predecessor.

---

Teranko
Message #1800 - 02/10/10 04:53 PM

Quit trying to make this partisan.

Huh?!! I'm merely stating that it wouldn't matter who was in office... the outcome would have been the same. It's the GOP camp that is saying they'd do things differently but refuse to say what. I'm guessing it's because they don't have any better ideas either. The western world is now between a rock and a hard place and if taxes are to be reduced, so must spending. Why argue over the minor costs? The three biggest draws are the military, healthcare and social security. The tenured politicians (85 of them have been in the house/senate for more than 36 years) have no interest tackling these issues. They (both Dem's & Rep's) will do whatever it takes to get re-elected.

[bga4444]

outaheresoon
Message #1801 - 02/10/10 05:02 PM



Teranko:

Okay, we are on the same page. Sorry, I thought that you were an Obama worshipper.

---

Teranko
Message #1802 - 02/10/10 05:10 PM

Heck no, I personally believe ALL politicians are cut from the same cloth. I just can't figure out where to go from here.... debt is amassing everywhere, not just within the U.S. Unfortunately, I think everyone is faced with a "financial reset" like what Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Russia, etc., etc. had to go through.

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1803 - 02/10/10 05:28 PM

Why does the US continue to spend as much as the rest of the entire world combined on the military?

I agree with you 100%. Why does the US have forces all over the World and especially in Europe? Their is no good reason for us to have troops in places like Germany, Italy, England, Iceland, Greece, Turkey, Scotland, Spain, and many many more places just in Europe. It is nothing more than a waste of money.

---

txbizownr
Message #1804 - 02/10/10 05:42 PM



Falling,



we have troops there to defend ourselves and our allies...shorter jump from germany to Iran from here..its strategic



tx

---

Driftr
Message #1805 - 02/10/10 05:56 PM



At least you didn't say it's strategory. That would have been embarrassing.

---

txbizownr
Message #1806 - 02/10/10 06:04 PM

I almost did for laughs

---

Teranko
Message #1807 - 02/10/10 08:58 PM

we have troops there to defend ourselves and our allies...shorter jump from germany to Iran from here..its strategic

You make it sound like the U.S. has bases everywhere to make it convenient to invade more countries (i.e. they are there for offensive purposes, not defensive)....

---

txbizownr
Message #1808 - 02/10/10 09:17 PM

You make it sound like the U.S. has bases everywhere to make it convenient to invade more countries (i.e. they are there for offensive purposes, not defensive)....

Teranko



the doctor called...you are now officialy ridiculous...

---

Teranko
Message #1809 - 02/10/10 09:21 PM

I sound ridiculous...?! I take it you wouldn't take exception to other countries like China installing & maintaining military bases all over the world then.

---

txbizownr
Message #1811 - 02/10/10 09:53 PM

I sound ridiculous...?! I take it you wouldn't take exception to other countries like China installing & maintaining military bases all over the world then.

Ever play the game RISK? fun game..



#1 China would not do this, they are not concerned for the we'll being of the rest of the world. American bases are there to preserve the peace.

#2 If America was in the business of invading counties yours would be top of the list in being most convienent but we both know thats not happening.







last but not least if America was

---

Jnap
Message #1812 - 02/10/10 09:54 PM



When looking at the deficit chart it appears that Republicans were responsible for the increasing deficit. But what is not shown, on that chart, is that Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2 also lowered taxes while continuing to spend. They did this while assuring us that more taxes would be generated by the increase in economic activity; resulting in more revenue. The chart proves that is a myth. I would concede that economic activity did increase taxes but not enough to make up for the cuts. Had the tax cuts worked the deficit would have at least leveled instead of going up. I think that the government increased its spending believing that additional revenue was coming in. When it became evident that that wasn't happening it became politically impossible to raise taxes leading us to our current debacle.

Tax cuts work when given to the middle and lower class but most of the money went to the rich. Isn't it obvious that lowering the capital gain and dividend tax helped the rich more than anyone else? Isn't it obvious that the middle class has been losing ground for the last ten years while more and more company executives have been paying themselves millions in wages and bonuses? In the current environment many companies are also benefitting from zero percent interest rates but others are also losing.

The retiree depending on CD and Bond income is losing. The person planning to retire, in the near future, is reluctant to move money to fixed income investments; paying almost nothing is losing. We have almost a perfect storm of investment dilemma; leave your money in the extremely volatile stock market or withdraw it and put it where it earns almost no return. It is enough to make you paranoid. And it doesn't stop there; have you noticed how much insurance rates have gone up?

Part of that is because insurance companies tend to invest very conservatively and they too can not get a reasonable return, so they raise your rates to make up the difference.

I believe raising the income tax rate for those making more than $500,000.00 a year, while reducing corporate rates would greatly help reduce the deficit. Additionally, it would encourage more risk taking and investment because instead of paying out million dollar bonuses, which would be highly taxed, it would remain with the company to be re-invested. Or maybe it would go to the middle class employees who have been losing ground.



This is how I believe we have gotten to our current state:

• Taxes have been reduced but the middle class has not benefitted.
  
• Wages have not kept up with inflation resulting in a reduction of the middle class living standard.
  
• The reduction in ·real· wages has resulted in the inability of the middle class to afford housing leading to the collapse of the housing market.
  
• Our economy then collapsed because it was too dependant on the housing and construction industry.
  
• With the reduction in domestic manufacturing, due to outsourcing to foreign countries, unemployment has reached record levels.

This is how I think we will recover:

• Tax credits for re-domesticating some manufacturing industries.
  
• More tax credits and stimulus for the construction and housing industries.
  
• Lower taxes for businesses and greatly raise taxes for those earning more than $500,000.00 a year.
  
• Tax credits for businesses that hire more employees.
  
• Increase in the prime interest rate to a reasonable level encouraging saving and providing a return at least equal to inflation.
  
• Heath insurance reform allowing a public option for those uninsured or wishing to obtain insurance from someone other than their employer.
  
• An amendment to the US constitution mandating a balanced budget and prohibiting deficit spending unless there is a declared war. And if there is a declared war, re-institute the the draft.
  
• An increase in Social Security and Medicare taxes to assure future benefits.

I am not optimistic that any of these things will happen because our political system is broken and congress has become ineffectual.



I would enjoy seeing your suggestions.

[bga4444]

outaheresoon
Message #1801 - 02/10/10 05:02 PM



Teranko:

Okay, we are on the same page. Sorry, I thought that you were an Obama worshipper.

---

Teranko
Message #1802 - 02/10/10 05:10 PM

Heck no, I personally believe ALL politicians are cut from the same cloth. I just can't figure out where to go from here.... debt is amassing everywhere, not just within the U.S. Unfortunately, I think everyone is faced with a "financial reset" like what Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Russia, etc., etc. had to go through.

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1803 - 02/10/10 05:28 PM

Why does the US continue to spend as much as the rest of the entire world combined on the military?

I agree with you 100%. Why does the US have forces all over the World and especially in Europe? Their is no good reason for us to have troops in places like Germany, Italy, England, Iceland, Greece, Turkey, Scotland, Spain, and many many more places just in Europe. It is nothing more than a waste of money.

---

txbizownr
Message #1804 - 02/10/10 05:42 PM



Falling,



we have troops there to defend ourselves and our allies...shorter jump from germany to Iran from here..its strategic



tx

---

Driftr
Message #1805 - 02/10/10 05:56 PM



At least you didn't say it's strategory. That would have been embarrassing.

---

txbizownr
Message #1806 - 02/10/10 06:04 PM

I almost did for laughs

---

Teranko
Message #1807 - 02/10/10 08:58 PM

we have troops there to defend ourselves and our allies...shorter jump from germany to Iran from here..its strategic

You make it sound like the U.S. has bases everywhere to make it convenient to invade more countries (i.e. they are there for offensive purposes, not defensive)....

---

txbizownr
Message #1808 - 02/10/10 09:17 PM

You make it sound like the U.S. has bases everywhere to make it convenient to invade more countries (i.e. they are there for offensive purposes, not defensive)....

Teranko



the doctor called...you are now officialy ridiculous...

---

Teranko
Message #1809 - 02/10/10 09:21 PM

I sound ridiculous...?! I take it you wouldn't take exception to other countries like China installing & maintaining military bases all over the world then.

---

txbizownr
Message #1811 - 02/10/10 09:53 PM

I sound ridiculous...?! I take it you wouldn't take exception to other countries like China installing & maintaining military bases all over the world then.

Ever play the game RISK? fun game..



#1 China would not do this, they are not concerned for the we'll being of the rest of the world. American bases are there to preserve the peace.

#2 If America was in the business of invading counties yours would be top of the list in being most convienent but we both know thats not happening.







last but not least if America was

---

Jnap
Message #1812 - 02/10/10 09:54 PM



When looking at the deficit chart it appears that Republicans were responsible for the increasing deficit. But what is not shown, on that chart, is that Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2 also lowered taxes while continuing to spend. They did this while assuring us that more taxes would be generated by the increase in economic activity; resulting in more revenue. The chart proves that is a myth. I would concede that economic activity did increase taxes but not enough to make up for the cuts. Had the tax cuts worked the deficit would have at least leveled instead of going up. I think that the government increased its spending believing that additional revenue was coming in. When it became evident that that wasn't happening it became politically impossible to raise taxes leading us to our current debacle.

Tax cuts work when given to the middle and lower class but most of the money went to the rich. Isn't it obvious that lowering the capital gain and dividend tax helped the rich more than anyone else? Isn't it obvious that the middle class has been losing ground for the last ten years while more and more company executives have been paying themselves millions in wages and bonuses? In the current environment many companies are also benefitting from zero percent interest rates but others are also losing.

The retiree depending on CD and Bond income is losing. The person planning to retire, in the near future, is reluctant to move money to fixed income investments; paying almost nothing is losing. We have almost a perfect storm of investment dilemma; leave your money in the extremely volatile stock market or withdraw it and put it where it earns almost no return. It is enough to make you paranoid. And it doesn't stop there; have you noticed how much insurance rates have gone up?

Part of that is because insurance companies tend to invest very conservatively and they too can not get a reasonable return, so they raise your rates to make up the difference.

I believe raising the income tax rate for those making more than $500,000.00 a year, while reducing corporate rates would greatly help reduce the deficit. Additionally, it would encourage more risk taking and investment because instead of paying out million dollar bonuses, which would be highly taxed, it would remain with the company to be re-invested. Or maybe it would go to the middle class employees who have been losing ground.



This is how I believe we have gotten to our current state:

• Taxes have been reduced but the middle class has not benefitted.
  
• Wages have not kept up with inflation resulting in a reduction of the middle class living standard.
  
• The reduction in ·real· wages has resulted in the inability of the middle class to afford housing leading to the collapse of the housing market.
  
• Our economy then collapsed because it was too dependant on the housing and construction industry.
  
• With the reduction in domestic manufacturing, due to outsourcing to foreign countries, unemployment has reached record levels.

This is how I think we will recover:

• Tax credits for re-domesticating some manufacturing industries.
  
• More tax credits and stimulus for the construction and housing industries.
  
• Lower taxes for businesses and greatly raise taxes for those earning more than $500,000.00 a year.
  
• Tax credits for businesses that hire more employees.
  
• Increase in the prime interest rate to a reasonable level encouraging saving and providing a return at least equal to inflation.
  
• Heath insurance reform allowing a public option for those uninsured or wishing to obtain insurance from someone other than their employer.
  
• An amendment to the US constitution mandating a balanced budget and prohibiting deficit spending unless there is a declared war. And if there is a declared war, re-institute the the draft.
  
• An increase in Social Security and Medicare taxes to assure future benefits.

I am not optimistic that any of these things will happen because our political system is broken and congress has become ineffectual.



I would enjoy seeing your suggestions.

[bga4444]

BGA4444
Message #1825 - 02/17/10 06:36 PM



DJ, that graph is very important. As the life line to millions of Americans is cut off there will be more and more deterioration to the economy. This continued deterioration will surely set back any gains!

---

Chucklemeister
Message #1826 - 02/17/10 09:20 PM

Hoax and Chains!!!

---

BGA4444
Message #1828 - 02/18/10 02:25 PM



The other things that would be "fixed" by this are; 1) State income tax and sales tax would get the states out of the red. 2) property taxes would "fix' local government short falls. 3) The multiplier on something of this magnitude would resonate through the country for decades curing many of our and the world's problems.

Plainly it is just way to smart for the idiots in Washington because simply it would work and eventually pay for itself many times over. The first year Federal, state, and local governments would would get half the money back! The other thing everyone receiving the payment would have to surrender their Social Security Rights forever. Think about that for a moment!

---

Ž
Message #1829 - 02/18/10 02:44 PM



I may be missing something but I have two questions...

1) Paying 40 million people $1 million each would require $40 trillion. Who would loan us 40 trillion dollars? How would we ever repay it? If we simply printed it then our dollars would devalue to the point that the $1 million would be almost worthless.

2) Even if that much wealth could be loaned to us and paid back by us, aren't you assuming that most would be responsible with the $1 million they each received and make it stretch through retirement? Judging from the lack of financial restraint in spending of the average American I would assume the $1 million would be mishandled and wasted in a few short years. At that point, how do you stop them from going back to work? More govt. to keep tabs on them, prosecute them and imprison them? Even then most of them would end up on some kind of assistance, welfare, food stamps and subsidized housing.

---

Crying Tree
Message #1830 - 02/18/10 02:59 PM

A million dollars not to work? That should set a fine example for the kids. Why work? Wait till I'm fifty and become a millionaire. Who Pays? Shaft the workers again? Sounds self defeating for any county.

---

great depression1
Message #1831 - 02/18/10 03:10 PM



I was wondering,how long you think that new 1.9 trillion will last for bernake.........it seems everytime the dow starts to head south,out of the blue it shoots up,even on negative employment numbers and profit downturns.

---

outaheresoon
Message #1832 - 02/18/10 03:13 PM

1) Paying 40 million people $1 million each would require $40 trillion. Who would loan us 40 trillion dollars? How would we ever repay it?

I'll tell you how...Have the Fed print the money out of thin air, record it as an off-balance-sheet transaction, put the records in a skyscraper, have a "terrorist" fly a plane into the skyscraper.

---

BGA4444
Message #1833 - 02/18/10 03:27 PM

Great questions guys! First it would pay for itself! You have to understand the multiplier effect. Next where would the money come from? Actually a pretty funny question. Answer, same place the other thirteen trillion has come from just print it. Make each person put 100,000 in a retirement account that only lets them get at the interest each year. Oh yeah for all you negative Nathans lets see your best ideas. Cause the idiots we elected to congress are not getting the job done!

---

Crying Tree
Message #1834 - 02/18/10 03:40 PM

BGA4444- You can't make anyone do anything. Not even take good advice. Congress is sort of like the Three Musketeers. All for me and the heck with the rest you.

---

BGA4444
Message #1835 - 02/18/10 05:24 PM

Cryingtree, I agree with you about the politicians. However setting an example for our kids on "not working" evidently you have not seen the unemployment numbers on the 16-24 year olds. They are living the non employment example. It is so bad they are starting to be called the "Lost Generation".

---

great depression1
Message #1836 - 02/18/10 05:34 PM



[www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/austin_police_say_a_plane.html] AUSTIN FIREBALL: MAN TARGETS IRS WITH PLANE





HEHEHEHEHHEHEHE!!!!!

[bga4444]

great depression1
Message #1837 - 02/18/10 05:35 PM

the dude burned his house down yesterday,then went on a postal psycho airplane ride........the balls of this dude.

---

txbizownr
Message #1838 - 02/18/10 05:49 PM



More of that to come!! when you have nothing left to lose, you have nothing left to lose.



tx

---

BGA4444
Message #1839 - 02/18/10 05:59 PM

Hey Great "D" he is just a mini me - Timothy Mcveigh! I am surprised not more has happened. This thing is far from over. I believe If I worked at a bank or a federal building I would wear a bullet proof vest!

---

Kitchen_sink
Message #1840 - 02/18/10 06:57 PM

[www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/austin_police_say_a_plane.html] AUSTIN FIREBALL: MAN TARGETS IRS WITH PLANE

HEHEHEHEHHEHEHE!!!!!

Terrorism is funny to you?

---

ASK
Message #1841 - 02/18/10 07:06 PM

Paramedics have set up a triage center at the scene, though it is unclear how many people are injured. EMS officials said one person was unaccounted for.

·We have no idea right now if there are any patients, or how many,· Austin-Travis County EMS Assistant Director James Shamard said.

This is not funny. Innocent people may be hurt or dead. Someones mother, father, son or daughter isn't laughing.

---

decoy409
Message #1842 - 02/18/10 07:17 PM



ASK , it is funny but not to people like us. It is funny to others as this is how many human brains work once you have raped them over and over. Revenge becomes the principal tactic and by whatever means as you were simply pushed aside,raped and told to shut up.



As things go from bad to worse now things of this nature are encouraged by those that are really in charge as this will set the phase for the next step which is,well you know.



See nothing is changing for the better but the worse,they know this,give them some credit,they have a super planned recipe.

---

decoy409
Message #1843 - 02/18/10 07:20 PM



Just imaging how many investors in the market are going to react when after all their smart talk and earnings are depleted through a monetary exchange program. Funny how all of our money has been used no more than against us but all the while many think that 'Fantasy Island' is real.

Yes,dark secrets are in dark corners.

---

Kitchen_sink
Message #1844 - 02/18/10 08:59 PM



Statements by great depression1 and BGA4444 reveal their true nature - a-hole, pieces of SH!T.



I may disagree, or even dislike, some members here, and they may feel the same way about me, but to my knowledge, only these two have crossed all lines of human decency.



Just so BGA4444 doesn't erase his a-hole post, like the coward I suspect he/she is, here's his/her post again:

Hey Great "D" he is just a mini me - Timothy Mcveigh! I am surprised not more has happened. This thing is far from over. I believe If I worked at a bank or a federal building I would wear a bullet proof vest!

And great depression1's first post to which he was responding:

[www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/austin_police_say_a_plane.html] AUSTIN FIREBALL: MAN TARGETS IRS WITH PLANE

HEHEHEHEHHEHEHE!!!!!

Both posts are really quite pathetic, just like both of them.

---

great depression1
Message #1845 - 02/18/10 09:16 PM

[www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/austin_police_say_a_plane.html] AUSTIN FIREBALL: MAN TARGETS IRS WITH PLANE

HEHEHEHEHHEHEHE!!!!!

Terrorism is funny to you?

The government said its not terrorism,it was REVENGE! you seem to miss the theatrics of the hehehehe.......his actions werent about killing anyone in particular and my heheheh wasnt aimed at any deaths......my hheehehhe was about how whats been going on has created desperate people and his actions parallel many peoples disgust about todays world in general..........take as you wish,because I could really care less!

---

BGA4444
Message #1846 - 02/18/10 09:19 PM



Kitchensink, I will respond in kind. Terrorism of any kind is not funny at all. But evidently this guy took his on life in response to the IRS mandates in his life. He/we must pay while politicians don't worry about paying until it is a problem ala Geithner. Little double standard there don't ya think! You know I did not like what you just posted about me. But I will defend with my life your right to say it. You are much more of a terrorist with your profanity on MT than any of us here. Your parents evidently raised you just right. Maybe you can lead the war on terror on those that owe the IRS money. You can start in Washington. You are so much better than me with your foul mouth. Excuse me for offending someone with your stature-banker , lawyer , or government worker which one are you?



Also you think I was joking or kidding you just hang around. I bet much more much worse happens because NOBODY including your sorry behind cares about anything or anyone but themselves.

---

Crying Tree
Message #1847 - 02/18/10 09:23 PM

We are in a global economy. If we want the gold, just like the Olympics, then compete for it. Something for nothing? Even the lotto requires money. Whine about things or blow up and kill people does not cut it. Maybe jail & death sound good to some but it will solve nothing. Those mention above caused their own demise and hurt or killed innocent people. Destruction , Violence and death for what? Maybe a march on Washington D.C. would have been better? Protest or figure out a better way to beat the competition, maybe by being better than them?

---

BGA4444
Message #1848 - 02/18/10 09:25 PM

"Don't mess with TEXAS" I bet he is the only guy in TEXAS who is pissed off at the federal government!

[bga4444]

Crying Tree
Message #1849 - 02/18/10 09:38 PM

How about " Don't mess with Alaska." I have been to both these places. I'll take my chances in Texas. The women are prettier there and the people are nicer. Mess with those Alaska people and it might be your last mess.

---

Crying Tree
Message #1850 - 02/18/10 10:09 PM

A tip to all. Best to mine your manners in Alaska. Things are not up for discussion too often. You might wake up on the cold snow if you don't. Maybe that Governor is not a true representation. Be good and nothing may happen, then again, that may not help. Those people face life or death every day and its no big deal.

---

outaheresoon
Message #1851 - 02/18/10 10:20 PM

I can guarantee you that what happened today with the plane is just the beginning. Desperation leads to acts of desperation. As Gerald Celente says: "When people lose everything, they lose it". Many more people are going to "lose it" in the near future.

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Kitchen_sink
Message #1852 - 02/18/10 11:39 PM

The government said its not terrorism,it was REVENGE! you seem to miss the theatrics of the hehehehe.......his actions werent about killing anyone in particular and my heheheh wasnt aimed at any deaths......my hheehehhe was about how whats been going on has created desperate people and his actions parallel many peoples disgust about todays world in general..........take as you wish,because I could really care less!

I stand corrected, apparently revenge killing and mayhem is funny? As far as your "theatrics" - pathetic and in very poor taste. Also, how is the creation of such desperate people funny?



Last question, how do you know what his actions were about? Senility, twisted revenge fantasy, or stupidity?

You are much more of a terrorist with your profanity on MT than any of us here. Your parents evidently raised you just right. Maybe you can lead the war on terror on those that owe the IRS money. You can start in Washington. You are so much better than me with your foul mouth. Excuse me for offending someone with your stature-banker , lawyer , or government worker which one are you?

My profanity, was a lot less offensive than you two clown's posts. Also if you're definition of terrorism is calling people names, you're more clueless than I thought.



Another thing, genius, I am not a banker, lawyer, or government worker. Good job trying to make it about me though. I work as a risk consultant, I've never even had a financial client, and only one government client - 8 years ago.



You want to make it about free speech fine. I'm ok with your right to say whatever you want, but with that right comes responsibility for what you say. If it's stupid, callous, insensitive, or just messed up and someone calls you on it, that's part of free speech as well.



BTW - I'll defend my own rights I don't need you're help, EVER, thanks.

Also you think I was joking or kidding you just hang around. I bet much more much worse happens because NOBODY including your sorry behind cares about anything or anyone but themselves.

As far as being callous and uncaring, you're the one making 'mini-me' jokes about what went on in Austin, not me.



You don't know a thing about me, so it's really amazing that you somehow know I don't care about anyone but myself. Truly remarkable, but absolutely typical of the spoiled, entitled, and/or childish when their poor behavior is exposed. Deflection and accusation - Sad.



I stand by EVERY WORD I said earlier.

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decoy409
Message #1853 - 02/19/10 12:23 AM



I just read what the man wrote (if it was not tampered with that is) and he pretty much said enough is enough. He did seek resolution he states for a very long time.

This is human nature for some. He was taken to the cleaners and learned too much afterwards.



Might care to read what he had wrote www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35461747/ns/us_news-life/

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BGA4444
Message #1854 - 02/19/10 01:14 PM

Kitchensink, Did you know you can click on your name and see how (and I quote you) " mean spirited " you are. If someone does not post what you say or believe you attack and belittle them! Why don't quit the childish behavior and start your own thread about what you think or suggest and give us a chance to respond to some of your ideas! I'm just saying! A original thought or idea requires some passion or emotion. Evidently you are lacking!

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Jnap
Message #1855 - 02/19/10 07:49 PM

That moron that crashed his plane into the IRS building really showed them didn't he? Oh, I forgot he's DEAD! That's right he got his revenge alright... he is DEAD. He said he didn't have anything else to lose. He was wrong when he wrote that because he was still alive but now he is correct because he is DEAD. What a stupid A**. Unfortunately he took the life of an innocent person. Why didn't he just kill himself instead. The stupid piece of excrement killed someone, forever hurting his or her family while solving nothing. Pathetic people like this one usually hurt the innocent before they kill the real source of their problems: themselves. If you have a problem with the world you can't deal with do everyone a favor and kill yourself and leave everyone else out of it. No one will miss you and everyone will be better off.

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BGA4444
Message #1856 - 02/19/10 08:23 PM



Washington has just announced they are going to help with mortgages in the five hardest hit states. What a joke! They have already been helping with no success. They are going to give the tarp money to the banks! This will allow them to "help".

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Jnap
Message #1857 - 02/19/10 11:15 PM

Bga444, try to get current. Over one million families have been helped by the mortgage program. If you expected it to help the totally "out-of-whack" then you were not paying attention. Many homeowners are beyond helping because they couldn't afford the house they bought before the economy tanked. As for TARP; that is old news, lets try to move on. Maybe the tea party would be a good place for you to rant; they accept all whiners.

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BGA4444
Message #1858 - 02/20/10 09:08 PM

Jnap, the so called "help" is total bs. If someone is out of work it does not matter how much modification they do - no money= no payment does not matter how low it is. One million helped give me your source for that BS.

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BGA4444
Message #1859 - 02/20/10 09:10 PM



Kitchensink, risk consultant insurance guy sorry I left out you scumbags!

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cheapgenes
Message #1860 - 02/20/10 10:45 PM

I think the IRS airplane guy went after the small cogs in the wheel, which is too bad. I can see how he can be that mad at the government. It's impossible to fight the government when you have to use your money, and they use the mass and force of the taxpayers money.
What has happened is wrong, but it is wrong on both sides. We need to change the constitution so that government can't continue to overspend. The leaders have bought votes, and the spoiled children have elected leaders that don't have any vision of the future. The future is here, and we are reaping what we have sown. At some point we have to pay.
We are in such a hole now that they will do anything to try and hold on. Our chances of landing without crashing are slim. If we do land safely we must change.

[bga4444]

Jnap
Message #1862 - 02/21/10 08:36 PM



Yes, of course many people are going to lose their homes because they can't make the payments but we already know this so what would you expect the Federal Government or the lenders to do beyond what they have already done? I have an answer and it is get more people employed. That is the obvious answer but just what, exactly, should we do to create these jobs? The conservative answer is cut taxes. But didn't Bush cut taxes more than any other president; so why do we have so much unemployment after all of those cuts, which are still in effect I might add? Maybe it was because the economy was overheated and largely supported by debt. Millions of Americans took on far more debt than they could pay, during normal economic times, and impossible during a serious recession. Additionally, the tax cuts went to the rich and they did not trickle it down as we have so often been told. The truth is that the middle class worker has been losing ground, for many years, and has not gotten the wage increases needed to allow them to support the debt and life style they demanded. Well, they are now paying the price and for their unwise behavior and belief that they would prosper by misdirected tax cuts. Some say it will take five more years to get back to normal employment levels years but I hope it is shorter because Americans are not very patient and often make unwise political decisions expecting newly elected politicians to solve their problems. Neither this congress nor the one that may get elected in November has a magic wand and if you think the conservative agenda being put forth is going to help you have a rude awakening waiting in 2011 and in fact may make the situation worse.

Sorry to say but there is no simple solution to a complex problem and as long as congress is ineffective the longer the problem will take to solve.

---

rjslrs
Message #1863 - 02/21/10 10:53 PM



I never considered myself rich, but I got a tax cut. I spent it on American made products, it didn't go for crap.



Tax cuts have to go hand in hand with spending cuts (which isn't gonna happen in today's world)



Whether Bush's tax cut did any good or not is a matter of opinion, but it gave me tangible results...............the current regime, not so much.

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ComoKate
Message #1865 - 02/21/10 11:46 PM

If you are the CEO of a major corporation- your children to go private school, you live in a gated community with private security guards, vacation in the South of France or in Jackson Hole in a private club etc. Now you have a choice between exporting US jobs and maximizing your bonus or keeping jobs here building a better civil society but earning less money which option do you take?



They will suck the US consumer dry and then move on to the next economy and the next lot of consumers. Why would they treat the consumer any better than they treat a mountain top in W.Virginia. And of course any moves to prevent that behavior will be greeted with "SOCIALIST". And the sheep that pass as citizens will believe them. As I said no difference between the US and Easter Island - worshiping the same gods with great

Well said, and I totally agree.

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1939s
Message #1866 - 02/22/10 12:37 AM

Message #1864: Well said sir. Benefit of self before country = traitor in my eyes. It seems we have MANY MANY traitors.

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schrizo
Message #1867 - 02/22/10 03:48 AM



What you say is all well and good but lets take it to another level. Do you shop Walmart, or Target or Lowes or Home Depot or Menards?? You can not get away from buying foreign made goods. Also, shouldn't we be buying from local vendors over those from out of state? How about internet vendors?? Do you eat at Applebees or other national food chains rather than a community owned eatery??

I don't see a way around this "strip mining" of the American economy. If you are serious about starting somewhere we should stop internet sales or at least tax them heavy to level the playing field for storefronts. Perhaps we need to tax the "Menards" on each Chinese flashlite they sell as a way of discouraging the support of unfair labor practices by the Chinese.

But there is no use in "beating down" those in business profiting from importing these cheap goods if we are going to buy them. We are like drug addicts addicted to the goods for the lowest price.

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Kitchen_sink
Message #1868 - 02/22/10 10:31 AM

I'm just saying! A original thought or idea requires some passion or emotion. Evidently you are lacking!

I see your point, laughing a murder and mayhem makes you full of emotion and passion.



You wrote dumb jokes about what went on, not me. Yet, I'm a "terrorist", then I'm "mean", next, I must be a lawyer, work for a bank, or the government, now I'm lacking "emotion and/or passion"...



You keep trying to blame me for what you wrote and your stupidity. I'll say it again, it's really sad. It's the tactic a spoiled child uses when criticized to avoid responsibility. IMO - The more you do it, the more pathetic show yourself to be and the more you prove my point.



I still stand by EVERY word I said. EVEN MORE SO NOW.



FYI - I don't consider helping companies identify and comply with government regulations an immoral activity. However, I'm OK simply "agreeing to disagree" with you on this, mostly because I'm not going to spend anymore time justifying myself to you or anyone here.



BTW - my definition of scumbag is someone who takes pleasure in attacks on this country, and that was YOU, not me.....

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rjslrs
Message #1869 - 02/22/10 11:36 AM

I don't see a way around this "strip mining" of the American economy. If you are serious about starting somewhere we should stop internet sales or at least tax them heavy to level the playing field for storefronts. Perhaps we need to tax the "Menards" on each Chinese flashlite they sell as a way of discouraging the support of unfair labor practices by the Chinese.

I don't agree on the internet thing. The internet is the only place a "little guy" can come close to competing with the box stores. The only place his lack of overhead doesn't put him out of business.



Most of the things I buy are vintage American, back when we built good stuff. I don't feel that I'm ripping anybody off by not paying taxes on it, there have been taxes paid on it at least once already (probably more than once) to tax it yet another time is double or triple dipping.



Our current local sales tax rate is 7 1/4% and it is slated to go up this summer. I can tell you that it will make a difference in where I buy.



If a town were smart, they would advertise their tax rates......assuming that they were not the highest in the area.

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neohguy
Message #1870 - 02/22/10 12:27 PM



The internet has changed the way we do business. It's here to stay so we have to adapt. Twenty years ago I was able to make money selling what I sell because people had a very limited number of choices of where to find someone that could locate and provide that part for them in a timely manner. Today, a purchasing agent can do an internet search of the p/n and find multiple suppliers, their pricing, and determine availability instantly.

We still keep an inventory of those types of parts but our business now concentrates more on having the knowledge and expertise of providing replacements for obsolete or discontinued items that will easily retrofit their system. We also have professional staff that can intelligently and helpfully answer questions.

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mistl
Message #1871 - 02/22/10 01:19 PM

lets get back to basics cut the pay of all our congressme and women by 20% and let them collect social security like we do an not at there higher rate they are no better then us who put them there

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #1872 - 02/22/10 01:30 PM

Benefit of self before country = traitor in my eyes

1939s,

I agree and many of them are serving in the US Congress !!!

[bga4444]

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1873 - 02/22/10 01:38 PM

Also, shouldn't we be buying from local vendors over those from out of state?

Great Point, Now that mentality has spread to local governments as well. Example - We recently had our local county government call asking for the price of several items they needed to purchase - The lady finally stated that she could get the same materials on the internet cheaper - A company not only in another state and has no local connections. This is crazy! This company does not hire local employees who pay local taxes and spend their money locally!!! I can't wait for their yearly visit into our business with their hands out seeking free donations - I'm going to tell them to call that Internet company they are supporting!!! I know budgets are tight but not supporting the businesses that pay taxes to you is just insanity!

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whoissobe
Message #1874 - 02/22/10 01:40 PM

lets get back to basics cut the pay of all our congressme and women by 20% and let them collect social security like we do an not at there higher rate they are no better then us who put them there

Still too generous. I say we go back to the original theory. Regular Joes take some time off from work to speak for their constituents. 1 Term is all they'd serve and then back to their regular job. I would also end all benefits......let the districts offer those should they feel it is helpful

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CaptRon24
Message #1875 - 02/22/10 01:52 PM



We are not in a depression. We are not even in a recession anymore.



The stock market is on the upswing because it is a forward looking indicator.



Things are getting better. This is a normal part of the boom/bust biz cycle.



The gov tries to moderate the ups and downs but its always too late to the game.



The stock market is still the best game in town...



Capt Ron

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decoy409
Message #1876 - 02/22/10 02:01 PM



And what neck of the universe did you come out of? Oh you must be one of the payroll recepients from the 'Don't Know Jack' department.

That is the most ludicrous and obstructive thing I have heard this morning so far. Thank you for the great laugh this morning!

Then there still is the rest of the day and I should be laughing my a** off around 11am say!

But that laugh will not be as funny as yours! Thanks!

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Crying Tree
Message #1877 - 02/22/10 02:10 PM

decoy409- The Port of Los Angeles has hired thousands of Long Shore men. 34.5% increase this year. Something is up.

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #1878 - 02/22/10 02:18 PM

We are not in a depression. We are not even in a recession anymore

Keep Clicking your heels together ; And Repeating !

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neohguy
Message #1879 - 02/22/10 03:13 PM

decoy409- The Port of Los Angeles has hired thousands of Long Shore men. 34.5% increase this year. Something is up.

I would like to know what they are loading/unloading. Truck traffic is still down/flat for the first 6wks of 2010 vs the down 1st 6wks of 2009. Truck trailer volume on rail cars is down ~10% for the same time period. Shipping containers is up ~5% for the same time period but down 5% for the same period in 2008 (recession started in 12/07 supposedly). The transports, at least the information I have available, do not support a 34.5% in needed manpower.

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Driftr
Message #1880 - 02/22/10 03:19 PM

This is a normal part of the boom/bust biz cycle.

I think it just goes to show how incredibly screwed up this country is that you think can type the quoted sentence and think it is acceptable.



Do you find it alarming that out booms and busts are becoming more frequent and violent? Do you believe that is a sign of a healthy economy?

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great depression1
Message #1881 - 02/22/10 03:48 PM

We are not in a depression. We are not even in a recession anymore.



The stock market is on the upswing because it is a forward looking indicator.



Things are getting better. This is a normal part of the boom/bust biz cycle.



The gov tries to moderate the ups and downs but its always too late to the game.



The stock market is still the best game in town...



Capt Ron

14 trillion spent by the fed to feed the market..it should be up,but not because the economies better it is from manipulation.

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Crying Tree
Message #1882 - 02/22/10 03:52 PM

neohguy- The article was in the L.A. Times Sunday Feb.21,2010. They mentioned the inventory down.

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BGA4444
Message #1883 - 02/22/10 05:47 PM

I can tell you here in Georgia retail sales are off 20-40% for the first two months of this year vs. last year same period. The other problem many people are doing jobs just above cost to keep their guys working and just sell something. We are in the flooring business and it is just awful. No commercial work funding pulled. No builder work - very few new homes needed. Spring is almost here and I am hopeful that things will improve. But realistically I fear that things may get a lot worse before they improve!

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ComoKate
Message #1884 - 02/22/10 07:33 PM

I've lost 4 hours of work today due to patient's canceling their preventive appointments; job/benefit losses mean they can't pay for our services. Every dental clinic in my area is reporting the same. It's definately not "looking up" in Minnesota.

[bga4444]

txbizownr
Message #1885 - 02/22/10 07:44 PM

The other problem many people are doing jobs just above cost to keep their guys working and just sell something. We are in the flooring business and it is just awful. No commercial work funding pulled. No builder work - very few new homes needed. Spring is almost here and I am hopeful that things will improve. But realistically I fear that things may get a lot worse before they improve!

Same in my industry, advertising/signs...most are selling at cost or even below..how do you compete with that and make a living?





tx

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #1886 - 02/22/10 08:02 PM

here in Georgia retail sales are off 20-40% for the first two months of this year vs. last year same period

We are down 18% for this period compared to last year. ( Retail Sales) ( Virginia)

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decoy409
Message #1887 - 02/22/10 08:05 PM

[moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=6693138] Crying Tree Message #1877
02/22/10 08:10 AM decoy409- The Port of Los Angeles has hired thousands of Long Shore men. 34.5% increase this year. Something is up.

Ok, I give up,show me where please you found that? States here not so?

On the Waterfront: Longshoremen still seeing tough times
By Kristopher Hanson, Staff Writer
Posted: 01/11/2010 05:59:04 PM PST

www.presstelegram.com/business/ci_14167398

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marshallcrazy
Message #1888 - 02/22/10 08:05 PM



Folks, you are correct, and anyone who chooses to look at a manipulated stock market as the leading indicator of economic health is just high. A couple of more tidbits for those like Capt. Ron who think things are all sunshine and roses:



Palm Beach International Airport had it's slowest December (2009), since 2001 following 9/11, tourism way down. Passenger counts down 14% from 2006 to 2009, rental car revenue down 29% for the same period, leisure and hospitality jobs down 13% for the same period, hotel revenue down 27% from 2005 to 2009 (one additional year in those figures), hotel occupancy for that time period down 15%. The difference in revenue/occupancy is obviously hotel rates coming way down.



blogs.palmbeachpost.com/realtime/2010/02/22/tourist-season-off-to-worst-start-since-01/



Now, for Neo and Decoy, here's another article from a week or so ago regarding trucking. Neo does a great job of giving us the shipping info, but here's another spin on it that doesn't bode well for the future, and certainly doesn't say anything positive about the present.



moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/macro-view/a-new-economic-index-supports-pessimists-on-us-economy/1617/?tag=content;col1

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #1889 - 02/22/10 08:12 PM

·lthough the 7.3% growth rate of the PCI in 2009 Q4 was a great number, at that rate the PCI will not exceed the 2007 Q2 peak until 2011 Q3·Rather than a 7.3% PCI, a value more like 15% is needed to bring the PCI in line with GDP in the near future. What did the New Year bring? We had a very disappointing 3.3% January [PCI reading] (annualized growth of 3-month moving average). Things are going to have to look a lot better in February and March to turn this worry into optimism about the power of the recovery.

Isn't it strange how the governments statistics are painting a rosy picture while the private sector statistics are showing the opposite?

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decoy409
Message #1890 - 02/22/10 08:13 PM



marshallcrazy , that is a very god indicator of which way we are headed. The chart does show strong as to direction:

[i.bnet.com/blogs/pci-january-2010.bmp]

Here·s why the PCI people are disappointed with the January reading:

·lthough the 7.3% growth rate of the PCI in 2009 Q4 was a great number, at that rate the PCI will not exceed the 2007 Q2 peak until 2011 Q3·Rather than a 7.3% PCI, a value more like 15% is needed to bring the PCI in line with GDP in the near future. What did the New Year bring? We had a very disappointing 3.3% January [PCI reading] (annualized growth of 3-month moving average). Things are going to have to look a lot better in February and March to turn this worry into optimism about the power of the recovery.

To me, this new PCI is an interesting index from an alternative source of observations, that is, not based on government surveys. More to follow on the PCI in the following months.

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Crying Tree
Message #1891 - 02/22/10 08:59 PM

decoy409- Try the L.A. Times not the local Press Telegram. I delivered that and the Independent as a kid.

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Driftr
Message #1892 - 02/22/10 09:02 PM



Here's a link to the story I think you were quoting.



www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-port-jobs22-2010feb22,0,4654153.story



FWIW I have not read it through yet.

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Crying Tree
Message #1893 - 02/22/10 09:06 PM



$1.26 million expansion of LAX also plus no farm workers to be cut back. lOOKS LIKE WERE STARTING ON THE WAY BACK.

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decoy409
Message #1894 - 02/22/10 09:06 PM

Crying Tree , Been to the LA Times and am unsucessful finding this. You state Longshore jobs or Longshoremen. Why don't you just post the article so we can see.

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neohguy
Message #1895 - 02/22/10 09:15 PM



Thanks Marshall, I did not see that particular article but I did post another article about Ceridian on the transport thread (#128) awhile ago. It agrees with the article you posted. Here is a link to the other article:

www.ceridianindex.com/news/release/new-ceridian-ucla-pulse-of-commerce-index%E2%84%A2-reveals-need-for-economic-reality-check-as-january-number/

....·The majority of the regions may still have experienced growth, but we·re not seeing the consistent, positive momentum generally considered necessary to significantly improve the labor market,· said Leamer. ·The index numbers for the remaining coastal regions actually dipped into negative territory. All signs continue to point to a weak economic recovery, too slow to drive down the unemployment rate.·.....

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marshallcrazy
Message #1896 - 02/22/10 09:16 PM



Neo, Decoy, Crying Tree, well here's a contrary port indicator from the east coast of the U.S. Granted, it's not nearly as big or influential as L.A. or Long Beach when it comes to shipping, but it's worth taking a look see. I'll see what I can dig up on the Port of Miami and Port Everglades (Ft. Lauderdale) as well, as both of them are massive ports.



www.palmbeachpost.com/money/major-port-shipper-says-short-term-numbers-gloomy-267453.html

[bga4444]

dr puma
Message #1897 - 02/22/10 09:25 PM



$1.26 million expansion of LAX also plus no farm workers to be cut back. lOOKS LIKE WERE STARTING ON THE WAY BACK.



Wow...$1.26 million dollar expansion! Takes my breath away. Things are really improving now!



Why, that's almost as much as LAX spends on toilet paper in a single year!

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neohguy
Message #1898 - 02/22/10 09:31 PM



Thanks for the link Driftr (#1892)

Through the first three weeks there was an average of 2,679 longshore jobs a day during the usual three work shifts at the two ports, according to the summaries. That's an increase of 34.5% over the 1,992 jobs that were available on average a year earlier.

An increase of 687 jobs as compared to last year. An improvement but too early to be considered an indicator imo. They have a long way to go:

In February 2006, an average of 3,773 jobs a day were filled by longshoremen, and that number increased to nearly 4,000 jobs a day in February 2007. During those two years, the ports sometimes employed more than 5,200 dockworkers a day. During the depth of the recession last year, that number dropped to as low as 1,000 jobs a day.

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Crying Tree
Message #1899 - 02/22/10 09:47 PM



puma- The road back may be slow but those are starts not finishes. Your not going to wake up and all is fixed right now. That doesn't happen in a economy slow down or start up. Let that take your breath away.

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Indiantoo
Message #1900 - 02/22/10 09:54 PM

[www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.nytimes.com%252F2010%252F02%252F21%252Fbusiness%252Feconomy%252F21unemployed.html&h=15c9eb13a6d51a847597c69a5b20126b] The New Poor - Despite Signs of Recovery, Long-Term Unemployment Rises - Series - NYTimes.com

www.nytimes.com

The social safety net was built for short-term gaps between jobs, but work may be scarce for years, even as the American economy shows signs of a rebound.

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Indiantoo
Message #1901 - 02/22/10 09:56 PM



Crying tree;

No, we won't wake up to prosperty again any time soon. I agree. See the NY TIMES article I posted just above.

Have a good day, man.

Peace

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neohguy
Message #1902 - 02/22/10 10:16 PM



One more article from today about intermodal shipping (mostly shipping containers and truck trailers).

www.ttnews.com/articles/basetemplate.aspx?storyid=23819&utm_source=express&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter

Intermodal Traffic Falls for 4Q, Year

Intermodal traffic volume fell 6.4% in the fourth quarter, an improvement over the third quarter·s decline of 16.4%, the [www.ttnews.com/search/frmSearchTop.aspx?terms=Intermodal%20Association%20of%20North%20America] Intermodal Association of North America said.

Domestic container volume increased in all but two U.S. regions during the quarter, gaining 9% overall, IANA said Friday.

International volume fell for the tenth straight quarter, dropping 12.3%, IANA said.

Trailers declined 15.4% in the fourth quarter to 415,455, from 491,128 last year. Domestic containers increased 9% to 1,068,754, while all domestic equipment gained 0.8% IANA said.

For the full year 2009, intermodal volume fell 14.6% to 11,670,350 units, IANA said.

Domestic containters grew 2.9%, while international containers fell 21.2% and international containers dropped 21.2%. All domestic equipment fell 5.8%.

The 1930's blog provides some interesting historical opinions on a daily basis about what people thought of the economy in 1931. Most opinions were optimistic and some business activity seemed to indicate that the worst of the GD was behind them. It was not. From 2-21-1931:

newsfrom1930.blogspot.com/

Pres. Hoover reports over 450,000 will be at work on govt. projects within a month, vs. 150,000 before the depression.

International bankers meeting in Paris minimize gold problem as cause of depression, believe it can be solved with long-term credits.

Market wrap: Stocks continued strong, with new yearly highs in almost all major industrials; public utilities, banks and trusts also strong; profit-taking increased toward the close but was absorbed easily. Bond trading quieter; US govts. dull, steady; foreign mostly steady to firm, German reach new yearly highs; corp. mostly higher with particular strength in convertibles. Commodities weak; grains mostly off; cotton down sharply. Copper remained at 10 1/4 cents. Silver market seen stabilizing as Indian inquiry increases

Conservative observers cautiously optimistic; recommend postponing new buying until Tuesday in case of unforeseen developments over the holiday weekend; if nothing new develops, recommend buying good stocks on minor recessions and holding until "market itself indicates a change in the trend."

Increase in automotive operations appears to be spreading to truck and bus makers; orders are up at accessory companies

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Jnap
Message #1903 - 02/22/10 10:23 PM

Mistl, Please check your facts before posting. Congress has been on the Social Security system since 1984. They contribute to Social Security and also to a Federal pension program with deductions from their paychecks. This is exactly the same as most private businesses where you pay SS taxes and also contribute to a 401k program, if you wish. It is not productive to put false information on this message board when trying to make a point. Take some time and get your facts straight and we will all benefit.

---

Kobotaboy
Message #1904 - 02/22/10 10:34 PM

Guess all the welfare programs are diverting a revolution. The idea of a "Tea Party" is not a far fetched idea anymore. If the "Politician" continues to sell his office and sell the people out, then we need a "Tough Love" amenment added to the Constitution and an added cabinet of Sgt. of Arms.

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BGA4444
Message #1905 - 02/23/10 02:31 PM



This morning the comptroller of New York stated that sales tax revenues were down for the fifth quarter in a row! He also went on to state, the last time New York saw that trend was during the Great Depression.

It is amazing to me that sales tax revenue is down in every state across the board yet companies are still showing increases in sales. The sales increases must be coming from abroad. You guys have any thoughts?

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txbizownr
Message #1906 - 02/23/10 03:04 PM



You are correct BGA, these large companies are all seeing overseas growth not domestic(in most cases)



tx

---

txbizownr
Message #1907 - 02/23/10 03:14 PM



Furthermore this is why I believe the stock market has little to do due with the health(pulse) of america..



Company A has a great year selling to china/India(whoever)..America has no demand..stock goes up because of higher revenues... america still suffers...not a good gauge if you ask me...



tx

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1908 - 02/23/10 07:27 PM

It is amazing to me that sales tax revenue is down in every state across the board yet companies are still showing increases in sales. The sales increases must be coming from abroad. You guys have any thoughts?

I don't believe they are increasing sales - Remember they are comparing to last years numbers, year over year or for some qtr over qtr. They play games. Even Wal-Mart seen a decline in sales the last Qtr - The first time since 1969! Our vendors are offering 90 days dating with Promotional Orders; but then they call up and say oh you have exceeded your credit limit and we will have to have half the money up front in cash. ( They never had a credit limit before) and we purchased much larger orders from them before. Also never failed to pay off an invoice. I think some of the manufacturers are starting to have cash flow problems - not a good sign.

[bga4444]

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1909 - 02/23/10 07:32 PM

updated 2 hours, 8 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The number of U.S. banks considered troubled jumped to more than 700 last quarter even as the industry eked out a small profit, the government said Tuesday.

The 702 banks on the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.'s confidential "problem" list are the most since the height of the savings-and-loan crisis in the early 1990s.

---

Jnap
Message #1910 - 02/23/10 10:09 PM



With great excess comes great pain and this is exactly what is happening and we will continue to have pain for some time.

As for comparing the great depression to today it is in fact somewhat similar except that we are no where near the economic troubles of that era. But then, as now, many people are suffering. The Government tried some of the same economic stimulus programs as today and some were successful and some were not but thought it all no one suggested that we quit trying to find a solution. The great many safety nets we have today didn't exist then and those that were created are the basis for many of the programs we have today.

There were three key programs in the 1930's that sound almost the same as today: Relief, Recovery, and Reform. The relief part is Unemployment Compensation which tries to keep people fed but is not sufficient to keep them in their overpriced homes; the recovery is the stimulus package (part of it is unemployment compensation extensions) and aid to the states to keep teachers employed and provide badly needed funds. The last part is regulation of the financial industry which certainly had a part in the economic collapse then as now. The stimulus spending for improvement of our infrastructure is not being felt yet because it is taking far longer to get the projects going then originally thought. In Florida it has been determined that only 7% of the money has been spent, so far, and that it may take several years to spend it all. There are several reasons for this but we have been told that an acceleration in spending has begun. We are hoping that our unemployment will improve because of this.

The one thing I hope the American people understand is that the only way things are going to improve is if we work together. Congress must quit the partisanship and find compromise. If not then the elections in November might only result in a majority Republican Party with the Democrats being the obstructionists.

Tea Party, Democratic Party, Republican Party or Libertarian Party, Who cares; we are all on the same sinking boat and a leak on one end can not be ignored by those on the other. We don·t need radical thinking we need clear thinking and both the left and right political extremists are tending to make so much noise that the middle ground can not be heard. Those of us in the middle are tired of this and we might just have to stand up and tell the extremists to shut up.

Check out this web site for more information.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

---

Crying Tree
Message #1911 - 02/23/10 10:18 PM

I hope its the good ship "Lolly POP". Maybe the "Leaking Lena". The "Titanic" where women & children first. I think it is old "Iron Sides". America has been through much worst times than this without all the Fan Fare.

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1912 - 02/23/10 10:35 PM

The last part is regulation of the financial industry which certainly had a part in the economic collapse then as now.

Unfortunately there has been no meaningful Reform or Regulations put in place as of yet.

---

great depression1
Message #1913 - 02/23/10 11:18 PM



John G. Is 63 years old and owns a small business. He's a life-long Republican and sees his dream of retiring next year has all but evaporated. With the stock market crashing and new taxes coming his way, John assumes now that he will work to his dying day.

John has a granddaughter.. Ashley is a recent college grad. She drives a flashy hybrid car, wears all the latest fashions, and loves to go out to nightclubs and restaurants. Ashley campaigned hard for Barack Obama. After the election she made sure her grandfather (and all other Republican family members) received a big I told-you-so earful on how the world is going to be a much better place now that her party is taking over.

Having lost both roommates, Ashley recently ran short of cash and cannot pay the rent (again) on her 3 bedroom townhouse.. Like she has done many times in the past, she e-mailed her grandfather asking for some financial help.

Here is his reply:

Sweetheart, I received your request for assistance.

Ashley, you know I love you dearly and I 'm sympathetic to your financial plight. Unfortunately, times have changed. With the election of President Obama, your grandmother and I have had to set forth a bold new economic plan of our own..."The Ashley Economic Empowerment Plan." Let me explain.

Your grandmother and I are life-long, wage-earning tax payers. We have lived a comfortable life, as you know, but we have never had the fancier things like European vacations, luxury cars, etc.. We have worked hard and were looking forward to retiring soon. But the plan has changed. Your president is raising our personal and business taxes significantly. He says it is so he can give our hard earned money to other people. Do you know what this means, Ashley? It means less for us, and we must cut back on many business and personal expenses.

You know the wonderful receptionist who worked in my office for more than 23 years? The one who always gave you candy when you came over to visit? I had to let her go last week. I can't afford to pay her salary and all of the government mandated taxes that go with having employees. Your grandmother will now work 4 days a week to answer phones, take orders and handle the books. We will be closed on Fridays and will lose even more income to the Wal-Mart.

I'm also very sorry to report that your cousin Frank will no longer be working summers in the warehouse. I called him at school this morning.. He already knows about it and he's upset because he will have to give up skydiving and his yearly trip to Greenland to survey the polar bears.

That's just the business side of things. Some personal economic effects of Obama's new taxation policies include none other than you You know very well that over the years your grandmother and I have given you thousands of dollars in cash, tuition assistance, food, housing, clothing, gifts, etc.., etc. But by your vote, you have chosen to help others -- not at your expense -- but at our expense..

If you need money now sweetheart, I recommend you call 202-456-1111. That is the direct phone number for the White House.. You can also contact the White House here: www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/ .

You yourself told me how foolish it is to vote Republican. You said Mr Obama is going to be the People's President, and is going to help every American live a better life. Based on everything you've told me, along with all the promises we heard during the campaign, I'm sure Mr. Obama will be happy to transfer some stimulus money into your bank account. Have him call me for the account number which I memorized years ago..

Perhaps you can now understand what I've been saying all my life: those who vote for a president should consider the impact on the nation as a whole, and not be just concerned with what they can get for themselves. What Obama supporters don't seem to realize is all of the money he is redistributing to illegal aliens and non-taxpaying Americans (the so-called "less fortunate") comes from tax-paying families.

Remember how you told me, "Only the richest of the rich will be aff ec

---

dr puma
Message #1914 - 02/24/10 01:09 AM

Are we now back to the Market Talk Comedy Show once again? Stay tuned for the next episode of "Poor Ashley" and laugh your pants off. Laugh even harder when Grandpa says, 'It's all Obama's fault."

---

1939s
Message #1915 - 02/24/10 01:41 AM

Laugh even harder when Grandpa says, 'It's all Obama's fault."

I doubt he will dr puma: more likely he'll shake his head and say "duhhh, them and us. Nothing ever changes!"

Still, some levity helps one get through the cloudy days

---

1939s
Message #1916 - 02/24/10 01:53 AM

By Jnap: Tea Party, Democratic Party, Republican Party or Libertarian Party, Who cares; we are all on the same sinking boat and a leak on one end can not be ignored by those on the other. We don·t need radical thinking we need clear thinking and both the left and right political extremists are tending to make so much noise that the middle ground can not be heard. Those of us in the middle are tired of this and we might just have to stand up and tell the extremists to shut up.

Then everyone is shouting ~ not unlike the situation on the Titanic is it Where and from whom will the clear thinking come since it seems to be patently obvious (by now) that it will not come from those with the power to effect change for the better. Clear thinking is in conflict with vested interests?

---

ComoKate
Message #1917 - 02/24/10 02:36 AM

John G. Is 63 years old and owns a small business. He's a life-long Republican and sees his dream of retiring next year has all but evaporated. With the stock market crashing and new taxes coming his way, John assumes now that he will work to his dying day.

I am a mere 13 years younger than "John G.", yet unlike him I *never* expected to live 30-40 years in "retirement". My own father, who grew up during the Great Depression, did not retire until he was a very healthy 85, having out-lived his friends, family and my mother, saying, "What would I do with myself all day?". Perhaps I inherited my father's way of thinking.

John has a granddaughter.. Ashley is a recent college grad. She drives a flashy hybrid car, wears all the latest fashions, and loves to go out to nightclubs and restaurants. Ashley campaigned hard for Barack Obama. After the election she made sure her grandfather (and all other Republican family members) received a big I told-you-so earful on how the world is going to be a much better place now that her party is taking over.

My oldest child will be 26 this year. I am not a grandparent yet. If "John" has a granddaughter that graduated college, that would make her approximately 22 years old . That would have made "John" a grandfather at the mighty young age of 41, which means either one of his children had a teen pregnancy, or he himself became a parent at a very young age; either of those scenarios could account for a "granddaughter" making less than ideal life choices.

I'm sure Mr. Obama will be happy to transfer some stimulus money into your bank account. Have him call me for the account number which I memorized years ago..

Maybe at "John"s "advanced" age, he forgot that the first stimulus injected into our economy came from a Republican president, or that the same Republican president was the first to bail out big, private banks, or began the never-ending wars on foreign soils that cost the United States over one Billion dollars a month.

the impact on the nation as a whole, and not be just concerned with what they can get for themselves. What Obama supporters don't seem to realize is all of the money he is redistributing to illegal aliens and non-taxpaying Americans (the so-called "less fortunate") comes from tax-paying families.

"John" seems to have missed the fact that he contradicted himself in the very same sentence.

With the stock market crashing

The financial "crisis" we are currently experiencing took decades to gather momentum. The stock market "crash" happened under a Republican president. It amazes me some people, such as "John", have such terribly short memories.

*********************************************************



I'm not a fan of *any* political party. I'm not a fan of President Obama, neither was I a fan of President Bush. However I think it is enormously unfair to attempt to pin all of the woes of our nation on a president who inherited two on-going wars, a stock market crash, and a housing melt-down before he even took office. The corruption/neglect of duty was rampant on both sides of the isle in order for our nation to end up in the chaos it is currently experiencing. I agree with Jnap in that unless the name-calling and finger-pointing ends, and we all work together for solutions, the ship that carries us all will sink.

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #1918 - 02/24/10 07:11 PM

The Commerce Department reported Wednesday that new home sales dropped 11.2 percent last month to a seasonally adjusted annual sales pace of 309,000 units, the lowest level on records going back nearly a half century. The big drop was a surprise to economists who had expected sales would rise about 5 percent over December's pace.

While winter storms were partly to blame, home sales have fallen for three straight months despite sweeping government support. Economists were already worried that an improvement in sales in the second half of last year could falter as various government support programs are withdrawn.

If our economy can only produce as long as the government pumps in stimulus then where are we really??

---

great depression1
Message #1919 - 02/24/10 07:33 PM

If our economy can only produce as long as the government pumps in stimulus then where are we really??

Its called by my name................the greatest depression

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frank the impaler
Message #1920 - 02/24/10 07:55 PM



There are many areas of the economy that have not receive a dime of stimulus and are producing jobs and revenue.



This presumption that the US economy is dead and will not recover is a fairy tale that people need to believe so as to assuage their own belief system...it is not a fact.



The fact that other countries are having the same problems we did and are now moving to correct



The fact that Japanese cars WERE believed to be superior is now being challenged and we (US) will benefit with higher mfg and sales



There are many event game changers out there you just haven't seen them yet and you need stop and pay attention to reality

[bga4444]

Crying Tree
Message #1921 - 02/24/10 08:14 PM

The tide is coming in with jobs. Some don't like it. The unemployment vacation is coming to an end. That means back to work. The government has put money out to help in the form of stimulus. No Thank You, Just complaints for more. Those who were looking found some pretty good jobs in Long Shore men work in L.A. Bottom was hit and now the come back is under way.

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Jnap
Message #1922 - 02/24/10 08:52 PM



Great Depression, the John G thing was a fabrication and you know it. I read the same thing over a year ago. By-the-way there have been no tax increases under Obama and in fact there have been several cuts. Of course if you enjoy your delusions don't let me shine any light into your dark corners, or allow fresh air into the toxic atmosphere permeating your reason.

Comokate I must disagree with you on the one billion a month being spent each month on the wars; it is more like ten billion a month. Also for those that pay attention, Obama is removing the majority of our troops from Iraq by July; just as he said he would. And before more is said, some troops will remain for some time frame but the fighting portion of US deployment in Iraq will stop".

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dummy 21
Message #1923 - 02/24/10 09:15 PM



you are a complete idiot!

go outside sometime..

the shopping malls are packed with people buying!!!!!

there are people driving home from work everyday!

10% unemployment means 90% of folks are working.

a lot of people are too lazy to work when they are getting free unemployment insurance .

wake up deadhead

---

dummy 21
Message #1924 - 02/24/10 09:18 PM

4444 is an idiot!

---

BGA4444
Message #1925 - 02/24/10 10:07 PM



I can tell you this "Dummy" forty five states in the union report sales tax revenues are down significantly! I am in Georgia just north of Atlanta, in a very affluent suburb and our sales are tanking and have been for about thirty months now. You are right some people are not effected by this down turn at all. I hope you are young so one of these days you can remember this chat. Manufacturing jobs are leaving this country. How much longer do you think we can sustain the negative importation of goods and oil? Give me your best guess!

Maybe you do not believe T Boone Pickens when he says we are in the middle of the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world. Where do you think the wealth comes from Dummy? If we keep sending all our money overseas what money will be left for us?

---

1939s
Message #1926 - 02/24/10 11:36 PM

go outside sometime..

the shopping malls are packed with people buying!!!!!

there are people driving home from work everyday!

10% unemployment means 90% of folks are working.

A rosy picture, but not one that reflects the economic situation where I live dummy 21. I see more and more closed down signs every week on the doors of small businesses that have been around here for a long time. Established jobbing machine shops are disappearing - two last week that I personally knew - both say they have not seen worse times. Three tenants in our 14 apartment block have lost their jobs in the last two months and so far (and it's early days for them I know) they haven't had a single reply from their many job applications. Malls here are not doing much business at all (many units are empty) but Wally World is staying afloat as expected. Pawn shops are doing quite well too, again as expected.

a lot of people are too lazy to work when they are getting free unemployment insurance .

wake up deadhead

Re: people who are too lazy to work : Is this your opinion or is it based upon your personal knowledge? I don't know any personally but perhaps you do. Everyone I know that can get work has grabbed it even when it brought in a fraction of what their qualifications are worth. They will flip burgers and shovel dirt to put food on the table.

BGA444 is an idiot and deadhead? Why? Because his opinions differ from your own?

You might care to look at your writing style since it doesn't really add credibility to your words ... but that is just my humble opinion.

You are right some people are not effected by this down turn at all. I hope you are young so one of these days you can remember this chat. Manufacturing jobs are leaving this country. How much longer do you think we can sustain the negative importation of goods and oil? Give me your best guess!

Like BGA444 I too hope that you are either unaffected by the sour economy or are still young enough to bounce through it, truly I do. Many of us do not fit into that category, but that's life.

---

BGA4444
Message #1927 - 02/26/10 12:41 PM

Reported this morning 1.1 million long term unemployed set to lose unemployment benefits and fall into the abyss. I want to personally thank the politicians who gave the "HUGE" 18 billion dollar jobs bill but decided not to include the extending unemployment part. May you burn in. Well you know where you are going I don't have to send a map!

---

1939s
Message #1928 - 02/26/10 01:33 PM

Reported this morning 1.1 million long term unemployed set to lose unemployment benefits and fall into the abyss.

Are they actively trying to stir up a revolution here People will only take so much before they spring loose from using just loud words. And right up front to those who say "unemployed persons are just lazy" don't live on this planet. There are NO jobs around here - even very low paying ones - and despite the "everything's going to be just fine - in time" brigade ... well, many are in a hole so deep and black that time has run out for them. Amongst those are the above 65's that nobody wants anyway, the ill (who don't qualify for anything) and perhaps worst of all the young who have little hope. I don't and never have believed in "only the strong should survive" ... it seems that we have we not progressed since Roman times

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neohguy
Message #1929 - 02/26/10 01:47 PM



Our tax dollars (stimulus) at work:

news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20100226&id=11164281 AIG posts $8.9 billion loss, warns of more aid

February 26, 2010 8:15 AM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - American International Group Inc reported a quarterly loss of $8.9 billion on Friday and warned that it may need additional U.S. government support, even as it tries to pay back taxpayers after a $182.3 billion bailout.....

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #1930 - 02/26/10 01:49 PM

Also for those that pay attention, Obama is removing the majority of our troops from Iraq by July; just as he said he would.

Actually he said he would remove all in 18 months. - Your last sentence remains to be seen. If he kept his promise then it would certainly be true.

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Driftr
Message #1931 - 02/26/10 01:51 PM



Is AIG still on the hook to us for the full 182.3B or did they partially pay us back with crumby assets we probably gave them 100% on the dollar for from one or more of their subs that we stuck in one of the Maiden Lanes? I have lost track.

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frank the impaler
Message #1932 - 02/26/10 01:51 PM

Join the revolution and write a letter to demand a special prosecutor!investigate the architects of this financial shell game!

[bga4444]

Driftr
Message #1933 - 02/26/10 01:52 PM

Are you posting a draft of that letter here on MT, or do I need to go dig for that gmail account I saw in another thread to get a link to the website?

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frank the impaler
Message #1934 - 02/26/10 01:55 PM

Thank you for the inquiry...no I will post a copy of the "linkage text" and you can personalize it with your content to your representative...we should be ready to roll Monday 3/1!

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Driftr
Message #1935 - 02/26/10 01:58 PM

Actually, living in TX, I expect pretty much all my Congress-critters will do the right thing when it comes time even if it's just to tweak the nose of those currently in the majority. I can always mail out a few letters just to be on the safe side though.

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frank the impaler
Message #1936 - 02/26/10 02:00 PM

And for that everyone thanks you...it can't hurt

---

Ž
Message #1937 - 02/26/10 02:10 PM



AIG turns my stomach. Ever since the first bailout and the govt. saying, "we won't lose taxpayer dollars on these (loans). Hey, we might even make money on them." That was a red flag to me way back then.

dummy 21, either the area you live in is doing above average or you're just trying to p*** people off. Either way what you said about the unemployed being lazy is a real slap in the face to those that are desperate for a job which can actually pay the bills for their family. I know there are some deadbeats mixed in with that 10% but to make a generalization that most of them are lazy is wrong. One other thing, the 90% employed that you refer to are not all full time with benefits. Quite a few of those are part time and have an additional struggle with family medical bills because they have no insurance. Additionally, quite a few have taken jobs that don't pay enough to support their families properly.

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ComoKate
Message #1938 - 02/26/10 02:12 PM



Frank,

If you can make any impact at all on the unholy alliance between Wall Street and Washington,my (flowery) hat off to you. And a public apology. You've alluded, in the past, to your Sicilian roots giving you the gift of your "dynamic" personality. I actually grew up in a Sicilian neighborhood. My Hungarian "roots" have bestowed the gifts of an analytical, sometimes cynical ( but always with a dark sense of humor!) outlook. It takes all kinds. It's the end result that matters, and if the voices of many can make a difference, I hope we can all work together for justice.

---

BGA4444
Message #1939 - 02/26/10 02:12 PM

Z, thanks for the post but I think Dummy's name says it all!

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frank the impaler
Message #1940 - 02/26/10 02:18 PM



ComoKate-I will take you comments in the spirit they were meant and move on. I think it is very difficult to ascertain anyone motives but especially here.



I re-did and re-taped the ads yesterday and they are ready to go Monday 3/1!

---

BGA4444
Message #1941 - 02/27/10 10:35 AM

8.8 earthquake in Chile. The Pacific ring of fire seems to be screaming,

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great depression1
Message #1942 - 02/27/10 02:23 PM



[www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alet_UTqF04M] MORE BAILOUT: FANNIE Seeks $15.3 Billion in Additional Aid...



www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alet_UTqF04M





[www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aOZm4lKzImYE] AIG Loss Bigger Than Estimated...



www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aOZm4lKzImYE





Man who broke the Bank of England, George Soros, 'at centre of hedge funds plot to cash in on fall of the euro'





A secretive group of Wall Street hedge fund bosses are said to be behind a plot to cash in on the decline of the euro.

Representatives of George Soros's investment business were among an all-star line up of Wall Street investors at an 'ideas dinner' at a private townhouse in Manhattan, according to reports.

A spokesman for Soros Fund Management said the legendary investor did not attend the dinner on February 8, but did not deny that his firm was represented.

At the dinner, the speculators are said to have argued that the euro is likely to plunge in value to parity with the dollar.

The single currency has been under enormous pressure because of Greece's debt crisis, plus financial worries in Portugal, Italy, Spain and Ireland.

But, it has also struggled because hedge funds have been placing huge bets on the currency's decline, which could make the speculators hundreds of millions of pounds.

The euro traded at $1.51 in December, but has since fallen to $1.34. Details of the secretive dinner emerged days after Mr Soros, chairman of Soros

Fund Management, warned in a newspaper article that the euro could 'fall apart' even if the European Union can agree a deal to shore up support for stricken Greece.


www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1253791/Is-man-broke-Bank-England-George-Soros-centre-hedge-funds-betting-crisis-hit-euro.html

[bga4444]

great depression1
Message #1945 - 02/28/10 06:28 PM

Im heading to alaska,I hear al gore owns a beach front cottage in anchorage! thought maybe I could camp out beside him.I do hate for somebody who has had their head in the sand for years to have to be alone since climate gate hit! Perhaps I can talk him into returning his nobel liars award,might bring some sanity back into his life.

---

MACHINEWIZ
Message #1948 - 03/01/10 04:29 PM



Just got back from a customer this morning and they said they were laying of 21 people this week. Talked to a guy Sunday and were he works the union wants to go on strike within a week about paying 3000.00 more for insurance and number of days cut and pay per hour cut. About 100 employees. This is in eastern Ohio. Most are saying this year is going to be worst than last year. Absolutely no work at all out there. Businesses are hanging on by a thread. I'm not spending any more money than I have to for the next three months or more.

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BGA4444
Message #1949 - 03/01/10 05:02 PM

Machinewiz, I am in the flooring business in a very affluent suburb of north Atlanta. You are correct us and many small businesses around us are hanging on by a thread. January and February are slow months any way but this year is much worse than 2009. The future looks very bleak!

---

MACHINEWIZ
Message #1950 - 03/01/10 05:28 PM



BGA4444,

I think we will be ok till May or June but I think the dow will double dip to 4000 or worse just my guess. I had a manufactured housing salesman call me this morning about a new house I was looking at to see if I was going to make a decision anytime soon. I told him I was going to wait a while longer till things get better but give me a quote on the foundation and maybe I will at least do that. He was saying non union manufactured housing company's were cutting their costs to move some houses. So he would give me a new quote on the house I was looking at. He also said he had a union manufactured housing salesman stop there 10 times since the first of the year trying to sell something but are not willing to cut any cost on any house. He said that company is hurting real bad.

---

BGA4444
Message #1951 - 03/01/10 06:42 PM

Machinewiz, I have never seen the cost cutting that is going on in flooring right now! Companies are so desperate to make a sale they are cutting their profit margin to just above 5 percent just to get a job. I guess any profit and work for your men is better than none at all!

---

Jnap
Message #1952 - 03/01/10 11:26 PM

I have a number of accounts with Fidelity Investments. I just received a market analysis and a prospect for job growth this year from them and I was very surprised by what they said. Fidelity believes that employment is set for a large gain. That's right, a large gain. When looking at all leading indicators they strongly think that many companies are ready to begin hiring; and very soon. That flies in the face of what many on this message board is saying but I thought it would be useful information to know what Fidelity is saying. And don't forget they are the first or second largest mutual company on earth. It does make you think a little doesn't it?

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ComoKate
Message #1953 - 03/01/10 11:49 PM

Fidelity believes that employment is set for a large gain

I've never received a prospectus that indicated I might lose my investment monies...

No one was warning people about the dangers of derivatives before our latest crash; in fact many of those toxic packages got a triple A rating. I expect to hear a siren's song when asked to part with my cash-

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Teranko
Message #1954 - 03/02/10 12:11 AM

Companies are so desperate to make a sale they are cutting their profit margin to just above 5 percent just to get a job.

It's not uncommon during tough economic times for construction companies to "buy" work. They'll tender the job at a loss just to keep the cash flow going that keeps the wolves (read banks) at bay. Obviously this only works for so long....

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Teranko
Message #1955 - 03/02/10 12:29 AM

No one was warning people about the dangers of derivatives before our latest crash; in fact many of those toxic packages got a triple A rating.

I think what the CRA's did in this regard is plain fraud, and as such, should be charged and jailed for it. Unfortunately what is right and what is legal, are two totally different things.

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BGA4444
Message #1956 - 03/02/10 06:39 PM

America still has a triple AAA rating and we are the most bankrupt country ever!

[bga4444]

rjslrs
Message #1958 - 03/03/10 01:49 AM

SPRINGFIELD - Gov. Pat Quinn's early budget scenario revealed this week shows the potential for big cuts in school funding next year because federal stimulus money is drying up.

With that lifeline from the federal government being pulled back, Illinois is among the states that are already struggling with their budgets. And some state officials are already asking for help from Washington again.

Illinois is using $922 million in stimulus money to pay for schools this year, and unless Congress votes to send more, that amount could get cut next year.

Whether the federal government should come to states' rescue again depends on who you ask. And the question of whether Congress will send more money to states remains unclear.

Clearly, though, Quinn wants them to help chip in. On a recent trip to Washington, D.C., the governor asked officials from the Obama administration to send more cash Illinois' way.

"We really need help from the federal government to make this work," said Quinn budget spokeswoman Kelly Kraft. "Hopefully, the federal government is going to come through."

But more details about Quinn's plans, including whether he'll push for tax increases again this year, won't be unveiled until March 10.

Illinois wants another chance at the trough











www.thesouthern.com/news/local/article_f11d5814-2420-11df-bd86-001cc4c002e0.html

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Crying Tree
Message #1959 - 03/03/10 02:32 AM

Make no mistake federal & state tax boards are taxing workers & businesses into the ground. Just keep working & paying taxes going nowhere fast and can't get a head & save for tomorrow.. No wonder so many people are on disability, welfare and unemployment benefits and do not want to go back to work.

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BGA4444
Message #1960 - 03/03/10 12:05 PM

Georgia's unemployment reported at 10.4% this morning. States sales tax revenues down over 17% - to lead the nation. We may be the most insolvent state in the south.

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great depression1
Message #1961 - 03/03/10 12:26 PM



The fed is in effect paying for failed state policies over the years to keep a failed system running another year.

So the unions dont lose their jobs..........guess what,next year cant come soon enuf..........slash and burn saves economies not debt ridden spending.

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BGA4444
Message #1962 - 03/04/10 02:40 PM

There is a 100% chance this is going to be a double dip recession. The actual numbers are staggering against a "V" shape recovery. It would be a mathematical impossibility. I have been saying all along that the market has been rising based on inflation on the amount of money Wall st has received. One small problem. None and I mean none of the stimulus money is making to main st. America. Thus the continued loss in wages, jobs, and overall buying power for the average American will thrust us into not into a "w" recession but a vy inflation. The market can not and will not continue to increase with the bloodsuckers who caused the first collapse still at the wheel. They are still paying themselves huge sums of our money. They are sucking the life out of America and should be dealt with harshly. At least we know the terrorist are Muslim. The bstards that have caused this are Americans and should be dealt with as traitors. Until this action happens we - main st. America do not stand a chance!

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1939s
Message #1963 - 03/04/10 02:47 PM

The market can and will not continue to increase with the bloodsuckers who caused the first collapse still at the wheel.

It can so it will.

They are still paying themselves huge sums of our money. They are sucking the life out of America and should be dealt with harshly. At least we know the terrorist are Muslim. The bstards that have caused this are Americans and should be dealt with as traitors. Until this action happens we - main st. America do not stand a chance!

They (The bstards) are people without a nation. They don't need one. A harsh and sad reality.

---

BGA4444
Message #1965 - 03/05/10 12:50 PM

Dj, Looks like Toyota is really in trouble. The calls are already coming in that the so called "fix" is not working. I believe it maybe time to short Toyota and buy Ford!

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BGA4444
Message #1966 - 03/08/10 12:09 PM

Toyota claims it is not a computer problem. But really they don't know- One thing I know for sure it is definitely time to short Toyota stock!

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neohguy
Message #1967 - 03/08/10 01:08 PM



Hundreds of thousands municipal employees are going to have their pay reduced by going to < 40hr work weeks. These are not temporary measures. When the staffing levels are reduced through attrition then the remaining employees will gradually go back to 40 hr weeks. The point I'm trying to make is that the reduced hrs will not be reported in the U6 report. The employees that are reduced through attrition will not be replaced in the foreseeable future.

I'm starting to hear the term "jobloss recovery" being used by analysts around the world. I'm in the deflationist camp. The only thing I see going up is taxes and interest rates.

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BGA4444
Message #1968 - 03/08/10 03:44 PM

The continued decline in tax revenue will have a even more sobering effect on states. As the tax revenue continues to deteriorate furlough days will stay in place to keep from having to lay off more employees. Many states are looking to pay employees to take early retirement.

[bga4444]

Crying Tree
Message #1969 - 03/08/10 03:58 PM

The rich people running the country have another great idea. Lets cut services to the poor. How about cutting back on mail delivery and libraries? Keep them stupid, poor and out of communications.

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BGA4444
Message #1970 - 03/08/10 08:00 PM

Hey Crying Tree, the government is also trying to scare and confuse the masses into approving huge property tax increases. The government is doing this by cutting police and fire in a attempt to scare us to death. Do not cut fire and police "cut the fat" instead!

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Jnap
Message #1971 - 03/08/10 08:54 PM



I have just completed my Federal income tax return and have discovered that I am paying the lowest taxes in years. In fact, after the standard deduction and personal exemptions the rate is less than 10%. I have no idea why people think their Federal taxes are so high when in fact they are not. Maybe the problem is State taxes. I live in Florida and we do not have a state income tax but we do have a 6.5% sales tax. That is still not bad compared to many states. If you have a tax issue maybe it is related to your state taxes because most states spent their eyeballs out when the tax revenue from the real estate boom was rolling in. Now they have to cut back... no surprise there!

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Crying Tree
Message #1972 - 03/08/10 09:50 PM

Jnap- Your right. It is states getting too big for their financial britches. Spending what they don't have then taxing stuff like boat launches that tax payers paid for and will pay for their use again. Taxing taxed items again should be against the law. Green motorcycles with green motorcycle cops in Washington hiding in with trees and bushes. Snap cameras at intersections, parking meters everywhere on what should be public parking on public streets. Anything to rip off citizens & make their life tough. Florida has high property tax. Motor homes who winter there beat the tax. You left that out.

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Jnap
Message #1973 - 03/08/10 11:45 PM

I have never thought Florida real estate taxes were that high. Everything is relative though. My taxes haven't changed in 5 years and run about $2,000.00 a year on a house valued at about $280,000.00. We do have various homestead exemptions that lower the appraised value and most houses are appraised at less than full value. Also those with homestead exemption can not have there taxes raised by more than 3% a year. The people that buy second homes here pay a much higher rate because they are appraised at current value and don't get the homestead exemptions. Some people don't like that but those of us that have lived in the same house for 30 years think it is fair.

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kman49
Message #1974 - 03/08/10 11:49 PM

That same house value in Western NY . Your taxes would be $14,000...5%

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TR77OY
Message #1975 - 03/09/10 12:53 AM



MY NEST EGG WAS IN GM, ENRON, CITI, FANNY AND FREDDIE. I AM DOWN MORE THAN 30%

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marshallcrazy
Message #1976 - 03/09/10 01:48 AM



Jnap, I don't know what part of FL you're in, but my property taxes went up over 10% this past year from 9,900 to about 11,100. I have a homestead exemption, and because I bought back in 2000, my assessed value went up 3% this year (my assessed value is far lower than my appraised value, which happens to be down 35% over the past 3 years. Of course, that's because the appraised value went up 250% from the original appraised and purchase price from 2000 through 2006) as my assessed value is still far below a greatly reduced appraised value, thankfully.



What that means is, I had a 7+% increase in my property tax rate this year, which is all local county, school, and city taxes combined. Our population is down, so the need for municipal services should be down. Yes, all of the municipalities cut spending, but not enough to prevent a 7% milleage rate increase. While we here about the all the cuts they made, nobody wants to talk about the fact that they didn't cut them enough to prevent a rate increase. In my City, they cut the City budget 18mm dollars over the past 2 years, from 103mm, to 85mm. Problem is, there's no good reason the budget should be at 85mm versus 75mm, as 85mm was the budget 3 years ago, and the population as well as need for municipal services is LESS than it was 3 years ago. See what I mean?



As far as federal income tax, I paid right at 10% of gross income, about 20% of net income after deductions, and itemizations, so the rest of your scenario matches up with my reality. Oh, by the way, with regard to the local tax situation I outlined above, I'm in Palm Beach County.

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common_sense.
Message #1978 - 03/09/10 02:09 AM

That same house value in Western NY . Your taxes would be $14,000...5%

kman49, I have a house in WNY that is assessed at $330,000 and I pay $8400 = 2.5%.

That same 3000sq ft, 4 bed, 3 garage house in Fla. would cost $550,00 - $600,000 and you would not get the 1500 sq ft basement with 8 ft ceiling.

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kman49
Message #1979 - 03/09/10 02:33 AM

kman49, I have a house in WNY that is assessed at $330,000 and I pay $8400 = 2.5%.

A new house?

My house 1950s 4%....The towns sometimes make a difference. Two blocks away and I am in the city. My taxes would be 1/2. I may be a little off with the 5% but just by searching multiple listing should show I am not far off

[bga4444]

BGA4444
Message #1981 - 03/09/10 12:46 PM



A true jobless recovery is what we are seeing now. However, that type of recovery is a house of cards. The Wall st. journal was saying the same crap in the early thirties as the nation headed for the abyss. What saved the country back then was huge expenditures in infrastructure like the TVA. The works programs of the 1930's put jobs and money back on main st. Nothing and I mean nothing Washington is doing is having that main st. type of effect. Preach things are great all you want but just like in the chamber yelled at the president " you lie " things are not great and may never be again!

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Jnap
Message #1982 - 03/09/10 10:20 PM

null

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BGA4444
Message #1983 - 03/10/10 01:06 PM



Jnap, I don't believe many credit cards existed in the 1930's and most American's like now didn't have a clue as to what the stock market really is. So please enlighten me as to what caused the great depression! American's were certainly not debt redden the way they are today yet the same out come please tell me the correlation. I believe many American's including many poster on MT have been brainwashed into believing the "debt ridden Americans" have caused this thing. I will tell you greed on Wall st. and the buying of American politicians caused this thing and the whole world knows it. That is why many foreigners are calling for a international watchdog of what we do. The repeal of Glass-stegall started the dominos- not some poor smuck who lost his job and could not pay. So I politely agree to disagree with you on on this.



In the 1930's Americans were out of work and getting paid slave wages. The government stepped in with many programs and put Americans to work at fair wages. That is what saved America and not WWII check the growth of the market it did not return to 1929 highs until-After 1950 when the industrial might in America started selling its goods to the world.

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Jnap
Message #1984 - 03/10/10 08:31 PM



The great depression was caused by debt. During the 20·s a high number of people invested in the stock market and used leverage to do so. Only ten percent equity was needed to purchase stocks and 90% was borrowed. Banks lent this money and when the value of the stock dropped 10% the owner no longer had any equity. Banks were then forcing people to sell the stock which caused even further decline and in many cases led to failure of the bank itself. The banking industry then became very conservative and stopped lending resulting in further economic decline forcing even more bank failures. 9000 banks failed during the 30·s and those that had money deposited in the failed banks lost it all because Federal Deposit insurance didn·t exist.

Individuals then stopped buying goods which caused industries to fail and unemployment to skyrocket. Then came protectionism and tariffs reducing trade which led to even more business failures and so on.

In many ways we are experiencing the same thing except - and that is a BIG except - banks deposits are insured so no one has lost their money due to a failed bank unless they had more than $500,000.00 deposited or were stockholders.



Check out this link for more information.



americanhistory.about.com/od/greatdepression/tp/greatdepression.htm



It is obvious that our current situation is not all that unique and, in many ways, is very similar to the economy in the thirties except highly leveraged housing is now the catalyst.



What is different is the amount of safety nets we have today such as unemployment insurance, bank deposit insurance, food stamps, Medicaid and Medicare and others that have taken some of the sting out of this recession.

Yes, times are bad now but compared the then not so much.

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BGA4444
Message #1985 - 03/10/10 08:46 PM

Thirty states show higher unemployment in January and five of the thirty set record high numbers! I keep telling you all this will be a jobless recovery! I believe we are in the middle of a ''w'' shape recession and harder times are still in front of us.

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Jnap
Message #1986 - 03/10/10 08:49 PM



Glass steagall separated commercial banking and investment banking preventing commercial banks from leading money to purchase speculative securities. Additionally, the margin requirement was raised from 10% to the current 50% assuring that there is enough equity to prevent the bank from losing money in a decline. In 1980 and again in 1999 some of the provisions of Glass Steagall were repealed and many believe that is one of the contributing factors that leading to our current problems.

Those that are ignorant of history or ignore the lessons are likely to repeat it.

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Jnap
Message #1987 - 03/10/10 09:06 PM



BGA444,

The economy can recover, to a great extent, and unemployment still remain very high for a long time. Previous recessions have done just that. Yes 9.7% of Americans are unemployed but not the same 9.7 continuously. I have read that three million jobs change hands each month and we need to have job creation of two hundred thousand just to keep up with the number of new people entering the job market.

This is a huge country (third largest in the world population wise) and very dynamic. At least 3 million people retire each year and an equal amount dies and leaves the work force. That information does not help the long term unemployed feel any better but it must be kept in context.

Whether you believe it or not all economic indicators are up and most economists are optimistic that employment will improve by the middle to end of this year. I do not think we are in a "W" recovery and if the economy does begin to slip more stimulus will be provided; on that you can be sure.

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great depression1
Message #1988 - 03/10/10 09:15 PM

BGA4444 you are not factual about the 1930's. First, almost all economists agree that the reason the economy faltered in the 1930's was because the Government cut back its stimulus spending thinking the economy was well on its way to recovery. This premature cutback didn't fully get reversed until WW2 when the government spent billions of borrowed money for the war effort. It was still stimulus, no matter how you look at it, that finally got the economy running again.

Saying that the current stimulus isn't working is just not accurate.

Please look at the following link to see where the stimulus money is going and you will see many tax cuts and billions going for jobs.



useconomy.about.com/od/candidatesandtheeconomy/a/Obama_Stimulus.htm

the great depression happened because the fed called back two thirds of all the money it had printed as stimulus.................the exact same thing happening today is what caused the last depression.the goverments fixes.

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schrizo
Message #1989 - 03/10/10 09:18 PM

I heard a conversation on Bloomberg radio yesterday in which they spoke of recovery. One of the things said was that productivity has been a driving force behind this "recovery." His point being we can not keep being more productive each and every quarter as we have been. Profits will fall because 20 million not working are not buying and the only way to keep profits up is to pay a lower wage. This is what they were predicting for our future. We will not keep the profit levels up without a decrease in wages. I thought that to be most interesting. That sounds deflationary to me.

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LivingInCali
Message #1990 - 03/10/10 09:30 PM

I do not think we are in a "W" recovery and if the economy does begin to slip more stimulus will be provided; on that you can be sure.

While I agree that this seems to be the conventional logic, we;ll just keep pumping stimulus until the problem is gone, I'm not sure the government can continue to pump stimulus without causing some extremely negative consequences. Can we continue to borrow or print our way to a self sustaining economy before we end up with a currency problem or an inflation problem. One of the biggest problems that we have is the entitlement programs indexed to inflation. While inflation might help us get out of the 10-15 trillion dollars of official US debt it would massively expand the required amounts for the entitlement programs off the books. If we assume SS and Medicare are somewhere between 60-100 trillion in promises 5%+ inflation to get us out of debt would expand these promises exponentially. At 5% inflation we'd be looking at 300+ trillion in promises in 30 years. I really don't know what the government should do, but Japan's been in the situation of attempting to stimulate their economy for 20 years and haven't been all that successful. Without settling the debt problems there isn't an easy way out that I can see. You can solve the current debt problem at the expense of future entitlements. I.e. kick the can down the road and hope nobody notices.

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Jnap
Message #1991 - 03/10/10 10:27 PM



Inflation is coming whether we are ready for it or not. The deficit is expected to hit twenty trillion dollars by 2020.

If we have inflation of 8% annually over the same time frame the deficit will be worth, in real terms, about what it is today.

But inflation indexing, for SS and other programs is going to have to be curtailed.

My predictions are:

Full SS retirement will be extended to age 69 within 4 years.

The SS rate will be changed to 7% also within 4 years.

The Medicare rate will be up'd to 2.0% very soon.

Taxes will be raised for upper income earners because they are the only ones able to pay more.

Cut backs will occur in the Military budget.

Economic growth in the US will be slow and "stagflation" will return.

Of course, I am being optimistic things could be worse.

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LivingInCali
Message #1992 - 03/10/10 10:58 PM

Full SS retirement will be extended to age 69 within 4 years.

Won't that negatively impact the jobless rate. If people have to work to 69 there's going to be a larger group of people looking for jobs and/or collecting unemployment benefits. How much difference is there between an UE check and a Social Security check. They are both ultimately funded by taxes from working people.

I appreciate the thoughts for solutions, it sounds like a blend of higher taxes, lower benefits, lower growth, and higher then average unemployment. I'm not sure how that translates into a good economy or better than average growth for the stock market. Seems like a period of 1975-1982 could be expected for the stock market where inflation causes negative real returns.

[bga4444]

schrizo
Message #1993 - 03/10/10 11:58 PM



Since this group of posters seems logical and capable of having an elevated discussion I would ask you to watch the news tonight on Edward Kennedy's angry lecture he gave the press today in congress. It was really a patriotic rant agains't the lack of interest in the Afgan war and he pinned the press for it as there were only 2 members of the press present.

I have been saying the same thing regarding our economy and the lack of interest of the criminal acts committed to its people. It amazes me how little digging has been done to uncover the real dirt behind it. Without a press willing to scratch beneath the surface we are truly screwed. Of course, most likely they are as they are because the public is unwilling to rise up against anything short of higher gas prices or cuts in cable tv. You really need to watch this rant as it is very encouraging that there is one person left with some righteous anger and he is an elected representative who will not run again.

Thanks for the great discussion regarding our future as we dredge up a confused history of our past. But as I understand it, the depression came about from the government pulling stimulus too soon.

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hvfpaints
Message #1994 - 03/11/10 12:04 AM

Don"t forget all those high school kids that can't afford college now - all looking for one of those jobs too. A jobless recovery is like being a little bit pregnant. Doesn't work.

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schrizo
Message #1995 - 03/11/10 01:01 AM

oops, I meant Ed Kennedy's son.

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BGA4444
Message #1997 - 03/11/10 12:38 PM



This morning BLS says they have never seen the number of government jobs lost in their reporting dating back to 1955.

Also, on the depression Glass-Stegal was put into place for many reasons. But one important one as I understand it was to keep banks where American's deposit savings and checking funds from investing those funds in the stock market. The government wanted those funds to be loaned back to the communities they were generated in to stimulate growth. In 1929 just like 2008 banks were heavily invested in stocks. Thus when the crash occurred suddenly - no money. Those laws worked and protected you and I for decades until they were repealed. When they were repealed it allowed banks to once again gamble "our" money on stocks and they lost the bet. They lost a bet that you and I are having to pay! I am really mad about this. And I am really mad that they blame it on some poor smuck who lost his job and could not pay his mortgage. Remember 90% of us are working so how does 10% bring the rest of us down. Also, when this thing started 95% of us were working remember? If I am wrong about Glass-Stegal please enlighten me!

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schrizo
Message #1998 - 03/11/10 03:24 PM

I think you are right about Glass-Steagall, but if the banks were not allowed to "gamble" in the markets they would not be profitable today. Most of the profits that have lifted them from 08 have come from their investments in the markets. That is why they are reluctant to loan money at 6% if they can make 20% in the markets. It may be a large reason many of us have seen such great returns from last year.. I still agree with you that banks should be in the lending business.

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Jnap
Message #1999 - 03/11/10 05:38 PM



Schrizo, the depression didn't occur because of the government reducing stimulus, the recovery was delayed because if it.

Simply put, the great depression occurred because of stock market speculation and the great recession occurred and is occurring because of speculation in real estate. Both were related to greatly leveraged buying and debt. Both were precipitated by the imprudent banking and financial industry and greatly aided by those unwisely speculating with their future and living beyond their means. A fool and his money are soon parted whether the fool be an ordinary citizen or a gigantic bank, automobile company or insurance giant. I like to think we are fighting a financial war and as in all wars the government must get involved. There are many casualties but ultimately we get back to some normalcy. Of course, much is lost and not all recover but a new normalcy will emerge and many may not like it. Some will prosper and will become the foundation for the beginning a new cycle. Let's hope we have learned something and not repeat our mistakes in the future.

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schrizo
Message #2000 - 03/11/10 07:54 PM

Agreed JNAP I should have said the premature removal of stimulus made the situation worse. After my grandfather took a beating in the markets during this period he swore he would never again invest in stocks and so when he had the money he bought land which I have today. We all get swept up in the excitement of fast money and it will happen again I am sure. There is always a gold rush of some sort going on. It would seem to me that housing will once again be a great investment at these reduced prices because we all need a roof over our heads whether we rent or buy. Prices are not cheap here in the great plains though.

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BGA4444
Message #2001 - 03/12/10 02:00 PM

Reported on MSN this morning over 7 million more homes already in default to foreclosure point. The banks have just been to busy to deal with them. If you really think we are even close to a recovery on main st. you my friend are a ostrich and need to get your head out of the sand!

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Crying Tree
Message #2002 - 03/12/10 02:32 PM

Why work? Welfare(your taxes) will pay others medical, rent and food stamps. Want a raise if on welfare, have another baby. Housing was not fixed first and until that happens the recovery will be very slow. Lots of Americans are just plain lazy and want the free government ride on disability or welfare. Learn to cry and act out poverty while working under the table. What a corrupt system that rewards failure, fraud and laziness in business and private life.

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BGA4444
Message #2003 - 03/12/10 02:38 PM

You know problem is if you don't throw them a bone a wild dog will eat somewhere. Maybe some of you would just prefer that we kill them! I am afraid we care more about the rest of the world than our on people. I believe truly most do not want a handout just a hand!

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ComoKate
Message #2004 - 03/12/10 02:54 PM

Why work? Welfare(your taxes) will pay others medical, rent and food stamps.

Worst case scenario, there would be more jobs created for health care workers, landlords/handymen, and the printers of the food stamps. Of course I am being facetious, but what do you do with people who are unable/unwillig to work? I think most of us agree help is needed for

someone who is unable to work through a valid physical or mental disability. But what about those who choose not to? Or those who are only capable of working a low paying job where the income made is not enough to realistically live on ?

We have the "freedom" in this country to ignore our fellow citizens; to live in gated communities, dine only in expensive restaurants, shop only in exclusive stores, pick the best medical care money can buy, send our children to the best schools with the highest tuitions...*if* our income is high enough to support it. The problem is, that is the description of a two -tier society;or a society that is soon to become one.Look at many of the countries in central and south America and what the lives of the common citizens are like. We are destined to have the same situation here unless we look at our society in terms of "we" istead of "me".

What a corrupt system that rewards failure, fraud and laziness in business and private life.

I agree. The multi-million, sometimes billion , dollar bonuses of CEO's who have run their companies, banks and this country into the ground could have paid for many roads, bridge repairs, infrastructure upgrades, education and healthcare for many US citizens that would have resulted in raising the living standards of everyone in this nation, rather than the golden toilets and 65,000 dollar shower curtains for the self-anointed ones.

[bga4444]

great depression1
Message #2005 - 03/12/10 02:58 PM



So,how long do you guys think bernakes last 1.9 trillion will last him,say the end of the month...........looks like he is shelling it out on the dow pretty quickly.



So far its cost the american taxpayer 263 million dollars for every positive point above 6500 since last march...........

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Crying Tree
Message #2006 - 03/12/10 02:58 PM

BGA4444- They want a hand for beating the government out of money. I lived in a low income trailer park while waiting for the house to clear. The dumpster was full of fast food containers. Too lazy to cook, work & all were very fat and smoked cigarettes. Cut the benefits and most will find jobs. The governments will pay for your new baby, food stamps, rent and give you more than you can earn. Go off welfare and pay medical, rent and food. Government free ride at workers expense is better. Lying is normal in today's world. Work under the table and collect a living from welfare. Check your undocumented immigrants and how they get by on nothing and have kids. Most I see are are lazy and scammers of the easy mark governments of the states. Just bums that like being bums and living off others who try hard to make it.

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BGA4444
Message #2007 - 03/15/10 11:46 AM



Cryingtree, most will find jobs if you cut the benefits-where?



Hey all, spring is almost here. The dems are in control and if we are truly in a recovery the dems must get all the credit! Great job democratic politicians!

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Crying Tree
Message #2008 - 03/15/10 01:28 PM

Go where there is work. Too many lazy dishonest people. Cheating the IRS working under the table and taking all they can get without lifting a finger. This is certainly a different America full of cheats, fake bums and liars. The Democrats are supposed to be for the working class but take better care are of moochers. Where is the rebuilding of the infrastructures? Paying people to do nothing? A full stomach makes a dull mine. Too many fat & lazy Americans. The undocumented immigrants have jobs but Americans are too busy scamming the government and want to retire at thirty. Welfare and drug rehabs are a way of life. Too many fake disability people who need to be actors. Working the system is what it is called by too many.

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Crying Tree
Message #2009 - 03/15/10 01:46 PM

A honest days work for a honest days pay? A man is no better than his word? A penny saved is a penny earned? The leaders of society set poor examples for those who follow them. Stealing from others who work is everywhere. A nice chunk of my retirement was taken by a chief execute officer and his chief financial officer. Nice titles but poor excuses for human beings. School teachers-What do they teach? Jails are over flowing with criminals & the dishonest from poor to rich.

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ComoKate
Message #2010 - 03/15/10 02:41 PM

Go where there is work

I don't have a work visa to get into China...



Ever hear of the "Okies" during the Great Depression?

They "migrated" for work too-

"Once in California, the refugees found limited work opportunities. They competed against
thousands of others for picking jobs, at depressed wages. They also faced discrimination.
With disdain, they were called "Okies," and their ways were mocked as "white trash."
Migrants moved into "Okievilles" or "Little Oklahomas," shanty towns built at the edges of
fields where they could live among their own kind. Black families fared even worse, as they
had to wait until whites found work before they could be hired. Latino migrant workers found
themselves repatriated to Mexico, although many were actually Americans"

www.redriverhistorian.com/desperation.html

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ComoKate
Message #2011 - 03/15/10 02:51 PM

www.nansemondriverworks.com/lesley/gd43_shack.gif

"While the late 1920s oil
boom sustained many communities
for a while, it didn't have an effect
on most farmers. Instead, as they
did not own the mineral rights,
farmers found themselves thrown off
the land by oil companies who bought
their mortgages. As the local banks, facing closure, recalled loans and lost life savings,
farmers suddenly found themselves penniless, landless, and starving"

www.redriverhistorian.com/desperation.html

---

BGA4444
Message #2012 - 03/16/10 11:43 AM

February Georgia Foreclosures up 22% vs. January. It sure walks like a duck. Talks like a duck. A recovery? Nope, smells like a depression to me. Make no mistake, a jobless recovery is not a recovery. I am very concerned that soon jobs are going to become a leading indicator!

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Crying Tree
Message #2013 - 03/16/10 01:43 PM

I still say people lived like kings & queens off the equity from their no down, adjustable, interest only loans on homes. Unreliable & not responsible types who just walked away and trashed the property so others could not have it. Too spoiled to work after living the good life. Even today they drive new cars, not grapes of wrath people but spoiled & lazy bums of tomorrow.

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great depression1
Message #2014 - 03/16/10 02:07 PM

I recently was helping a married couple to get a home in ky. They had everything going until the fha group backing the mortgage wanted a hole filled in at the back yard and then the pipes of the house were found to be completely busted thru out by the winter. The finance company said we wont close til these are fixed,well good enuf but where the money comming from,so the buyers got an ok for 2000.00 and a showing of reciepts to get the work done out of what little they had in their pocket.So the finance company is to raise the selling price by 2000 to cover the expences and the buyer a man gets his kid and himself to fic the pipes under the house as the lowest bid was 4000.00 dollars.......so he rushes to get it all done for the expected closing date 1 week later only to be told we need all the reciepts and we need to recheck all your account balances................He toldem you get the reciepts at closing when I get my 2000.00 check from you...........as the closing didnt go down as the finance company had said it would and left the home buyer flat busted after all the excpenses..................So I told him,tell em your putting a lien on the house and your suing them in court for not fulfilling a predated verbal contract with implied approval for said work proir to closing.......and make the lien for 5000.00 as thats what it woulda costed for your cash and sweat equity..........

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Crying Tree
Message #2015 - 03/16/10 02:30 PM

The people I see on welfare can only lift a beer can and cigarette to their mouths. They can't pick up their yard or clean their house. Why did I come from poverty and make it. Because I collected bottles and worked two paper routes a.m & p.m to help support my family at 9 years old. Took my 16 foot row boat, coleman lantern and caught 3000lbs pound of fish an hour legally. Made jobs for myself if their were not any or moved where the work was at. Sitting around expecting others to support them and not even taking birth control. Spending food stamps for cigarettes & booze? Not trying. I did not like lazy people when I was a worker or a manager. Respect is earned not given.

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Here in the US
Message #2016 - 03/16/10 02:55 PM

We let everyone in and give them money. The people that live here and worked and pay into "The System" get the shaft. The lady who works in the office husband passed away. Went to SS to try to get some money from the 40 plus years he paid into "The System". She got $0. Why? Oh you are going to get a pension so you can not get his money. But i worked with a guy from Iraq who got money for his his wife to take care of his mom. Never worked a day in his life here but he even got a check from SS every month. Then he was bragging about his cash job he had on the side and how much he made there. The guy would always laugh at us at how stupid us Americans are when he got his check. Where can i go in the world never work there and get a check? I pay so others get my money. And the best part is they are not born in this country.

[bga4444]

Crying Tree
Message #2017 - 03/16/10 03:21 PM

Here in the US- I have been complaining about this for a long time. We had a German Couple here in town with a small boy. They were here on Visa's. They worked very hard and were successful in two businesses. Their Visa's ran out and were forced back to Germany. They complained about the illegal immigrants get to stay and their on welfare with babies. We pay our own way. The man shot his wife and kid then himself over this unfair treatment of foreign workers. Why must some countries be legal and others not legal and drain our system for the free unjustified benefits?

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Crying Tree
Message #2018 - 03/16/10 03:36 PM

This happened last week in Sun River, Oregon . Send the illegal immigrants back where they came from, cut expenses for states and free up jobs for American Citizens. This an unjustified invasion of foreign workers.

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schrizo
Message #2019 - 03/16/10 03:47 PM

I think it is because someone knows we will have a labor shortfall soon and wants these imigrants to stay. I hear what you are saying about "legals" being treated worse than "illegals." Its not right for sure.

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Here in the US
Message #2020 - 03/16/10 03:58 PM



It is all about the votes. Can't get the Cubans mad we need the Cuban vote. The Mexican guy same with them and any other non American race you can think of. You want to take care of the world but you refuse to look in your own backyard!

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Crying Tree
Message #2021 - 03/17/10 10:35 AM

My backyard is fine. My neighbor in Washington got shot & killed in his front yard by an illegal immigrant. He got two years & deported to Mexico. A widow & two kids left behind. How about equal justice for the same crimes by any people? Too many of these people sell drugs and do not obey our laws but want the free ride.

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BGA4444
Message #2022 - 03/17/10 04:32 PM



Thirteen trillion in debt and 10+% unemployment, every state bankrupt and still the brainwashed or the brainwashers claim " everything is fine "! No, everything is not fine the market may be up but Americans are still hurting and I am really angry. The health care industry is net 20% profit and the pharmaceutical companies are net 30% who in the world makes those kind of margins? It looks like to me the American people should just buy all health care companies and pharmaceutical companies and problem solved. Heck with those kind of profits we could pay for all the health care and social security too!

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Jnap
Message #2023 - 03/17/10 08:05 PM



Crying tree you are not being factual about the German guy that killed his wife, kid then himself. He was a deadbeat, could not pay a loan he took out and both his construction company and dry cleaning businesses were failing. He is a classic pathetic killer who should have taken his own life first and allowed his wife and child to live. By the way he also killed his dogs and cats.

May he never find peace.

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BGA4444
Message #2024 - 03/18/10 03:31 PM

Multigenerational homes up 30% since 2000. Just like in the great depression family members are helping each other. You want to know what's happening to home prices? Old folks are moving out and moving into senior living homes or with children. People who bought homes, got laid-off, moved out and are living with mom and dad. All these things combined with the recession have brought together the perfect financial storm! This country is thirteen trillion in debt. The market has been held up by taxpayer money but this situation is far from over. It is not even close.

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BGA4444
Message #2025 - 03/19/10 11:58 AM

Banks added more physical gold reserves to there holdings last year. The last time gold was gathered like this was 1964. There was a huge threat of nuclear war at the time which would have rendered paper money worthless. What is the threat now? Same countries involved! This time they have different weapons of mass destruction! The financial industry especially the Wall st. companies have gotten so corrupt they are on the verge of taking the entire planet down! Why would banks in the same year as the largest growth spurt in the history of Wall st. elect to have 18% of there holdings in gold? I know gold is inflation proof and that is what I fear we are about to see inflation that will be staggering! Remember Germany they had the same type of inflation I fear before WWII. Hang on tight this thing is far from over!

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neohguy
Message #2026 - 03/19/10 12:34 PM

Banks added more physical gold reserves to there holdings last year. The last time gold was gathered like this was 1964. There was a huge threat of nuclear war at the time which would have rendered paper money worthless.

I read the article that Duff posted about this. I have a different take. Imo, I think this is a move by central banks to reduce the amount of gold available. The banks do not want gold replacing their notes. In the 1930's they confiscated gold. Same this time except they're buying the source.

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The_Kid
Message #2027 - 03/19/10 01:20 PM



IMPORT TAX and manufacturing will be back in a jiffy. This country can live on it's own consumption we have proved that in the past. Ronnie's idea in the 70's of trickle down, removal of controls, outsourcing manufacturing and breaking of monopolies has come back to bite us in the A--. Trickle down don't work when the top make their profit out of the country. Removal of controls has us sitting on the junk planes of bankrupt companies and putting up with the removal all customer service from business. Under control all made a profit and the competition was for customer service not the cheapest price. Outsourcing has left us at the mercy of the rest of the world and I wonder if we even have the ability left to ramp up production to defend ourselves if we were attacked. Breaking monopolies was only a mask put on the big guys. The big one that was supposed to be the example (AT&T) just broke up into small companies, castrated their employees wages, broke the unions and now 40 years later brought their monopoly back together anyway with cheaper labor and we all kiss their butt to buy an iPhone and pay them a fortune to use it. The problem is we just don't learn from our mistakes and until we do and get the yahoos out of office in Washington that support the stupidity we will continue to live reaching for the carrot just out of our reach.



When a country goes around believing that big business, banking and the government will take care of their future they will loose. A real economy is the little people going to work everyday to produce a product that will be consumed by themselves and the other little guys producing another product. This is what keeps a real economy moving, real money in the circle that produces the real economy that we need to live in. Unfortunately under that real economy we can't all live in million dollar houses and drive 100k cars and there lies the dilemma, we all desire the shiny object that we will sell our very soul to have. GREED. Washington and the guys on the top are counting on it to keep their large salaries intact while the rest of us think that if we go to college we too can make the big bucks they do. Well that isn't going to happen, your not allowed in their world no matter where you went to school. They won't break up their little empire but they have no problem breaking up yours. You will forget as history has proven and you will put yourself behind some new idea that will make them richer promising you a brass ring again. Give a little and take back a lot is the system you live under and until you realize that and demand a real economy you can just enjoy the life you are given by them and not the one available by your own choice.



We gave the banks a break and what did we get? We gave stimulus money to the states, what did we get? Real stimulus would have been to the people who spend real money not to the big guys who distribute it among themselves. How many million dollar checks to the families of the country could we have handed out for the billions we gave to big business? What do you think that result would have been? Until we all start to realize that the people are the foundation of this country that hold up the top and not the other way around we are doomed. If there is a large dollar amount any where in this economy someone is devising a way to steal it. They stole your 401K's, they dissolved pensions, they put you in debt up to your ears and then raised the interest rates on the debt, they took your home, they took your job and you still walk around blaming this party or that one. Don't you realize they are laughing their a--es off at you. Nobody is at all mad at the thieves and they can do whatever they want and nothing will happen to them. The only consequence is we'll vote for the other party next time. Well we've tried both of them already, don't you understand they are both in the pockets of the thieves? Make them produce it where it's sold, put the controls back in place so they all make a profit and we won't have to press 1 for english anymore.

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BGA4444
Message #2028 - 03/19/10 03:29 PM

Kid, very well said I agree we need to eliminate what is in Washington! How? Even the tea party is being sponsored by big business! We need the People's party to take Washington away from the crooks that now run it!

[bga4444]

The_Kid
Message #2029 - 03/19/10 04:45 PM



BGA4444, Yes the tea party is nothing more than the right starting there old tax crap again to put them back at the head of feeding line and why wouldn't big business support them they get more freedom to steal more should they win. They had their chance last time for 8 years and led us into this mess we are living in with the let big business live theory. How quickly we forget.



I'm afraid that we will have a problem taking our country back because you just can't get enough people willing to get their hands dirty doing it. It won't be an easy task taking down the group that feeds off our neglect of caring while blinded by the shiny object. They don't want to give up their golden spoon and it will take nothing less than another revolution to put an end to the status quo. At this point I don't believe that you can assemble enough believers in one place to make a difference without the other side assembling a greater mass to oppose it. I for one am working my way to ex-patriotism in another land where our rich keep their assets and leaving the mess for the believers who let it create itself. I don't have the years in my life left to wait for the right thing to be done. I live by the words of a wise grandfather who lived through the last depression, trust none of them and FOLLOW THE MONEY!!

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Jnap
Message #2030 - 03/21/10 08:53 PM



The_Kid, you blamed everyone but yourself. Did you take personal responsibility for your finances? Did you obtain a higher education, allowing greater assurance of employment possibility, regardless of future job prospects? Did you put away enough money to carry you through a serious economic downturn? Did you regulate your spending to make sure you had the future earnings needed support any debt you might, willingly undertake? If the answer is yes then you were personally responsible. If no then you added to the demise of our economy.

Many wanted the good life but were unwilling to sacrifice to earn it.

Sacrifice to earn it? I must not be serious. But for the millions upon millions of Americans that are not in financial distress sacrifice is what many did to achieve their, relatively secure economic situation.

A good definition of wealth is having the money to buy most things but the wisdom to not do it.

This is one way wealth is obtained; weighing the real cost of acquisition as opposed to the belief that buying things makes you wealthy. (A little hint, it doesn·t it just makes you indebted.)

This is a lesson that Americans will have to learn before we go on and prosper. Just think about how many industries could have been created using just 15% of the money that bought stuff instead of being invested?

The future, just as the past, is bright for those looking toward the future and willing to sacrifice something to make it prosperous.

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BGA4444
Message #2031 - 03/23/10 11:50 AM

I am amazed. The health care reform that half of you said would bankrupt us leads market higher. To funny, the growth was lead by the health care industry! Now all Americans will be forced to buy insurance! No wonder the insurance stocks and health care lead the rally. This bill is the equivalent to " no fault " auto insurance. I am in the flooring business I wish the government would make Americans buy new flooring every year! We "the construction" business would be rallying too! I am sure the " bill " will make all illegals have insurance as well! You politicians make me sick to my stomach! I can not wait to vote your butts out of office.

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neohguy
Message #2032 - 03/23/10 12:01 PM

I am in the flooring business I wish the government would make Americans buy new flooring every year!

ditto with boilers.

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Jnap
Message #2033 - 03/23/10 08:05 PM



I couldn·t be happier now that health care reform has passed. I believe that once the effects of the reforms are viewed, without Republican rhetoric clouding the issue, most Americans will be happy with the changes. Those that are uninsured and ill certainly will be; as will those that have insurance but are not happy with it because it is very expensive and very limited.

I am having a very hard time understanding why Americans would be unhappy with the uninsured, finally, being covered.

The most recent information I could find clearly states that 110 million Americans are already on Government provided heath insurance and care. So adding another 32 million should not be a problem. (The 110 million includes 20 million working for various levels of Government, 45 million on Medicaid and 45 million on Medicare.) There are even more military veterans on Government health insurance and retirees but I don·t have those numbers.

I view this change as having an effect of removing a primary reason for bankruptcies; medical bills that can not be paid.

Will this reform add to the Federal budget deficit? The Congressional Budget Office says no and that it will actually reduce future deficits. But even if it doesn·t it is still better than spending huge sums of money on two unpopular wars, that most people did not want, and instead using it to directly help Americans live more healthy and prosperous lives.

What·s not to like?

I have to laugh when I hear about all of the States filling law suits so they don·t have to participate. The civil war solved that problem so there is absolutely no merit to these ridicules suits. Some people are really bad losers, really, really bad losers; or maybe they are just losers.

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010011101002101010
Message #2034 - 03/23/10 08:35 PM

I think there are a lot of sore losers out there because Obama did something that no one was able to do for the past 45 years. Even with all the Re-Pub Mudslinging and the Tea Party white noise to distract him. He's cold, calculating, focused and a force to be reckoned with. I'm glad he's on the side of the Constitution, I'm glad he's on the side of the American people (unlike some 'leaders' who are only on their own side of smoke and mirrors that haven't actually gotten anything done - but get paid anyway ). Kudos to Obama for getting the job done. Lets see what else he has up his sleeve

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BGA4444
Message #2035 - 03/23/10 09:11 PM

Yeah it is so great big business and Wall st. loves it! You ever stop to wonder why? If something was great for the people the market would have dropped like a lead balloon! All I can tell you is the average American citizen just took it up the Kazoo! It is not about people having insurance. I believe all Americans should have health care-as a right not as a privilege! The reason business loves it is simple. The average working American will get the bill not them!

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LivingInCali
Message #2036 - 03/23/10 09:51 PM

I couldn·t be happier now that health care reform has passed. I believe that once the effects of the reforms are viewed, without Republican rhetoric clouding the issue, most Americans will be happy with the changes. Those that are uninsured and ill certainly will be; as will those that have insurance but are not happy with it because it is very expensive and very limited.

I'm not sure you've read the bill but this bill didn't do anything to give away free insurance to the uninsured in this country. The very poor will be covered under medicare and people with pre existing conditions will be able to BUY insurance at the same cost as everybody else, but the bill did nothing to cap insurance premiums from rising for everybody. There's already stories of insurance premimums being increased with the passage of this bill. If it was a single payer system similar to many socialized systems it might be an ok bill but this bill is a tax increase on the rich to fund shortfalls in medicare (soon to be a tax on everybody because the caps aren't indexed for inflation, hello AMT) and a bill that forces everyone to go buy insurance regardless of cost or pay a fine by 2014. Once it starts sinking in that everybody previously uninsured can't just start showing up at the hospital for free treatment next month you'll see a lot more unhapiness about this bill. People think it means free insurance if you don't have it or think you can't afford it, but that isn't anywhere close to the truth. You buy insurance at the current expensive rates or even higher, or pay the government a fine. If you work at MCDonald's you're covered under medicare for the 2.9% part of your check that goes to medicare.

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BGA4444
Message #2037 - 03/23/10 09:56 PM

Livingincali- Dead on! The insurance industry is giving high fives and cutting their next unlimited checks to the politicians as we speak!

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BGA4444
Message #2038 - 03/24/10 02:48 PM



New home sales fall to lowest on record dating back to 1963. Gosh what would it be without all the government help? Stopped?



Make no mistake, everything is fine just fine!

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Here in the US
Message #2039 - 03/24/10 03:14 PM



Cali

A very good post. Plain and simple. Just hope the people that read it will understand it.

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exceo
Message #2040 - 03/24/10 03:31 PM

This has to be one of the dumbest articles posted on the web. Indicates clearly the extremes to which web editors will go to attract attention.

[bga4444]

kman49
Message #2041 - 03/24/10 03:44 PM

This has to be one of the dumbest articles posted on the web

Care to be more specific?

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BGA4444
Message #2042 - 03/24/10 04:13 PM

Exceo Why don't you post something we can critique. I am sure as a ex ceo you can post something very insightful and "not dumb"!

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Jnap
Message #2043 - 03/24/10 08:28 PM



Cali, Yes people will have to purchase health insurance and those earning less than, I believe 150% of the poverty level will get help with the premiums. But at least they will have insurance, can not be dropped because of illness and must be covered even if they have pre-existing conditions. This is quite a milestone as it has a taken a hundred years of trying to get this done.

I have noticed that 14 or so states are filling suits, insisting that the bill is unconstitutional because it forces everyone to purchase insurance and that they must help some of these people through Medicaid. This is particularly galling since the State, Local and Federal Governments have forced me to pay for their health insurance, through taxes, for as long as I can remember. Isn't it interesting how they have no problem taxing me to pay for their insurance but have some problem helping pay for others. That has to be the height of hypocrisy; getting all of the benefits, at tax payer expense, and then refusing to accept a mandate to help provide health care to the very people paying for theirs. Does the image of fat, sloppy, big mouth pigs come to mind?

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BGA4444
Message #2044 - 03/25/10 11:07 AM

Chief economist for Wells Fargo says housing in a " W " shaped recession. He said this am on CNBC that the spending for durables increase was government spending driven. How much longer do you think the deficit spending can drive the economy? The way this has been handled by the Government is inflating a huge balloon that when popped will be devastating!

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Here in the US
Message #2045 - 03/25/10 12:51 PM

Today's Chicago Tribune 3/25/10 page 21 Read "The painful reality of ObamaCare" by Jonah Goldberg. What do you think of this?

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BGA4444
Message #2046 - 03/25/10 01:17 PM



He makes a good point on the "one payer system" coming later from this legislation. I really had not thought of that but I believe that is exactly how it will go down! I still believe, that in the greatest country in the history of earth, good healthcare should not be based on how much money you have.

I can not believe that with the internet the large companies have not figured out how to bypass insurance companies altogether and offer Doctors visits "online". I know there is a less expensive way for all of us to get health care. If we don't find it soon the cost will bury us! We can have affordable healthcare for all Americans if we can just get the Insurance companies and the lawyers out of our business!

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Here in the US
Message #2047 - 03/25/10 03:24 PM

Most people think this "Health Care" will be for free. Now just because i have "ABC" the insurance guys can not deny you coverage. But you have to buy a plan to pay for your coverage from a "High Risk" pool because you have "ABC". And you have to do this because it is the law or you have to pay the fine/tax. They can not deny you but you will pay for it. Where is the "Reform"? No limit on your policy? Just like your car make a few claims and your payment will go up. And remember you have to buy this from the people they say and take the policy they offer you. Can not wait for the people to start to go to the Hospital/Doctor for your "free" health care. Can you see the persons face being told you still have to pay for it or your plan does not cover that. That will be a true Kodak moment. Just one more nail in the coffin.

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djrick
Message #2048 - 03/25/10 07:59 PM

US Senate Clashes Over Jobless-Benefit Extension

WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--Just minutes after Senate Democrats won the final vote on their sweeping health-care overhaul, they found themselves embroiled in another dispute with Republicans, this time over an imminent expiration of federal unemployment benefits.

Republicans took to the floor and, citing concerns over the size of the national debt, said they wouldn't support a short-term extension of the benefits unless they are offset by spending cuts elsewhere in the federal budget.

Sen. Tom Coburn (R., Okla.) is currently speaking about the need to pay for another extension of the federal benefits.

Republicans set their version of jobless-benefits legislation, with the costs fully offset. It will now require a vote by Democrats to dislodge the Republicans and retake control of the floor.

Even then, Republicans can block passage of a Democratic version of the bill, and Coburn has pledged to do so.

The episode is similar to one last month when Sen. Jim Bunning (R., Ky.) took to the Senate floor several times and repeatedly objected to a Democratic attempt to extend jobless benefits and health subsidies to help unemployed people afford health insurance.

In that instance, benefits expired and thousands of people across the country stopped receiving checks from the federal government for a couple of days until Democrats could overcome Bunning's obstructionism.

This time, the Senate was in session until past 2 a.m. EDT Thursday morning as Republicans attempted to amend the Democratic health-care legislation.

Democrats were no doubt looking forward to leaving Washington, D.C., for a two-week recess, fresh from the success of their health-care-legislation victory.

Instead, they must remain in town trying to work to ensure that benefits aren't allowed to expire at the end of March.

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decoy409
Message #2049 - 03/25/10 08:03 PM

Thank you for your donation today! Might want to scrap some of those long shots BGA4444!

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BGA4444
Message #2050 - 03/26/10 11:50 AM



Your welcome Decoy409. I just try to throw in my humble opinion tainted with a little of my dry humor. I find your "long shots" informative, entertaining, and sometimes a little bazaar. Just don't take what I say so personal. I try to dole out my long shots/opinions on everybody. I think sometimes people take my opinions as a little abrasive. But they do the same to many others so I do not take some responses so personal.



MT is kind of like a high school classroom- High IQ guys, free thinkers, conspiracy theorist, comedians, and class clowns. I feel like most of us fall into many of these categories from time to time!



Decoy have a great day and keep posting! You are one of the many personalities that makes MT as great as it is!

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BGA4444
Message #2051 - 03/26/10 05:16 PM



I just read the article about personal income and some of the comments written about it just made me sick.

A dem was blaming Bush and repub was blaming Obama. Get real the problem is not with the other party it is with ALL politicians. Please vote out all incumbents. It is the only way for true change to come to America. We need conservative dems and republicans working together to bring back some sort of reality to this dream state we are living in. It will be unpopular decisions but the belt must be tightened to bring spending under control. How do all those traitors in Washington sleep at night?

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flying higher...............
Message #2052 - 03/27/10 04:41 PM



It doesn't matter who you vote out or vote in office. This is the Progressive party takeover - New World Order and there is no stopping them. From now on, any elected official will be forcing us into Marxism. A country ran by the elite and everyone else will be poor labor workers with nothing to show for except a government check. It's the end of the world as we've known it. We won't even be called the U.S.A. pretty soon......it will be a ONE nation world. A lot of people claim there will be a revolution.....I don't see it happening. American's are too lazy to start a revolution. Did any of us do or say anything when we bailed out the banks and rewarded them with more money for helping with the financial collapse? Took over GM & Chrysler?, passed healthcare without hesitation. And while they had the entire country distracted with Healthcare, I wonder what they've been working on behind the scenes. Look at some of the television shows on now...........what's up will all the Brits being brought over to help "Transform" America. Food revolutions, Education revolutions, Money revolutions..........where does it stop?



If we wanted to be more like the UK, we would have moved there. Oh yeah, I forgot it's not about what we want anymore.

[bga4444]

BGA4444
Message #2053 - 03/30/10 11:30 AM

I was listening to Hannity last night on the way home. He made the statement that many economist are telling him that this will be a double dip recession. I am very concerned that when the government starts to pull back spending we are going to be in a world of hurt. The housing and auto industries have been artificially held up without hitting their true bottom. Banking has been artificially held up also. States , who unlike the federal government can not just print money will now have to raise taxes across the board. This raising of taxes will have the opposite effect. It will make things get even worse. The long term outlook for America is grim very grim. Unemployment has begun to fall. The reason is because when someone exhaust all benefits they are no longer counted as unemployed. Huge numbers of unemployed are about to fall off. So on the surface with the market and unemployment things look rosier but look closer in reality it is a wilted rose!

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BGA4444
Message #2054 - 03/31/10 01:28 PM



The private sector loses 23,000 jobs. Thank goodness for the all redundant census! What a waste of taxpayers money. I am sure if you took the finale numbers from the census and applied them to the real numbers in the social security dept they are not even close. What can the census tell us accurately the social security dept doesn't already know? You want to cut some wasteful spending start with the census count!



The republicans suddenly want to start paying for something! They had not worried about it the last eight years. Now they want to hold back unemployment extensions until they come up with the money to pay for it. They sure were not worried about paying for anything under Bush! Why Now? Approve the extensions you jerks and cut wasteful spending like the census!

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Driftr
Message #2055 - 03/31/10 01:42 PM

The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

Article I Section 2 Clause 3



I don't think Congress has an option not to pay for a census every 10 years.

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Crying Tree
Message #2056 - 03/31/10 01:44 PM

Raising taxes while the working class sinks is not a public servant that we elected but a self serving greedy person who does not care. Vote them out. Health care and no money to pay for it? Maybe the whole country will become one big jail to hold us all? Prisoners get free health care along with welfare people and illegal immigrants. Is it possible the priorities for working citizens are taking a back seat to those who do not pay to help run the country?

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BGA4444
Message #2057 - 03/31/10 02:05 PM

Babies have to have SS numbers now! If they have to do a count count the Social Security cards.That would be a heck more accurate than what they are doing. Do you really believe the census is even close to accurate?

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Crying Tree
Message #2058 - 03/31/10 02:09 PM

I don't think they count the 30 illegals hidden in the basement?

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BGA4444
Message #2059 - 03/31/10 02:13 PM

Only 15 illegals now the rest went back where cost of living is cheaper!

---

Jnap
Message #2060 - 03/31/10 08:35 PM



The census is held every ten years so that the representatives for congress can be allocated according to relative state population. There are a fixed number of representatives, 435, so some states lose representatives while others gain. It depends on the number of people in each state. With a set number of representatives some states that gain population, gain reps while states that lose population lose reps so, it is very important that everyone be counted.

For those that are paranoid, there is nothing devious about this it is just about Federal Representation.

SS numbers are required, when filling a tax return, so that people do not claim their pets as dependants. If you claim someone, as a dependant, they must have a SS number.

If you noticed Social Security numbers are not asked when filling out the census.

---

Crying Tree
Message #2061 - 03/31/10 08:49 PM

Jnap- Sort of like the Trust Me Bank? No job verification or proof of anything? Any number is a good number? Only 470 undocumented immigrants in this shipping container. Next Container. They don't count, only on welfare?

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BGA4444
Message #2062 - 03/31/10 09:00 PM

Jnap, do you really believe that census count is accurate? If you saw the actual census numbers vs. the social security numbers which one do you think would be more accurate? It is a waste of MONEYYYYYYYY....

---

djrick
Message #2063 - 03/31/10 09:28 PM

This era will down as the largest pump and scheme in history - only this time the fraud will have a complicit government.

In the end, the math doesn't work. Math is neither left or right, but right or wrong.

---

Crying Tree
Message #2064 - 03/31/10 10:10 PM

Let's see. Legal Citizens and illegal residents count the same. Each worth one. We only want the numbers of people and we don't care who you are. If more people are counted than before we need more Politicians Representing who? Everyone no matter your legal status in the country? How about those infra Red lights and helicopters fly over your house & freeway near you. Count you at night when you sleep. Then take those to numbers to the "knock at your door people counters "How many here?") and move on. Number will not be close to matching.

[bga4444]

BGA4444
Message #2065 - 04/01/10 10:56 AM

Crying, I agree totally. The census is a joke and total waste of the tax payers money. I do not know when it started but I am sure it was pre information that the government has now. Take real unemployment for instance. Do you think the social security office could give us the real numbers on unemployment? Government waste is unreal and should be stopped!

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Jnap
Message #2066 - 04/01/10 07:40 PM



There are additional methods to try and compile an accurate population count. One of these is using the information from tax returns. Of course not everyone files a return so it too would not be accurate. Then there is counting all housing and trying to figure out how many people live in each housing unit. That would work, up to a point, but what about the homeless? Using SS numbers would provide still more information but it would need to add people born and subtract those that died every year. I think it is very rare for births to not be counted and equally unlikely that deaths are not recorded so it would help. Using all of these methods should produce the best estimate of what the actual population in the US actually is.

But then there are the illegal's. Since the states the have illegal's don't get to count them they have the most incentive to identify them and if not deport them at least count them.

In the end it is still a best guess but when you have a population of 320 million people keeping track of everyone is a difficult problem but still must be done every ten years.

---

BGA4444
Message #2067 - 04/01/10 07:49 PM

What I am saying JNAP is the census is totally inaccurate. I bet the numbers they come up with are way less than the SS department has-Wanna bet?

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Jnap
Message #2068 - 04/02/10 06:45 PM



How would anyone verify what numbers are accurate and which are not? In the end it is still the best guess based on all information available.

Kind of like investing isn't it in that buying and selling is done using the best information available?

The states must make every effort to determine what their population really is because they might lose Representatives and millions of dollars of Federal money.

---

LivingInCali
Message #2069 - 04/03/10 02:02 AM

The states must make every effort to determine what their population really is because they might lose Representatives and millions of dollars of Federal money.

The only problem I have with the census is we attempt to count everybody regardless of whether they are represented or not. Why waste time counting illegal aliens and other citizens to determine congressional districts if they don't vote. Why not just base the census on tax payers or otherwise registered voters. I can understand a count for other reasons but why should we base wellfare, voting disticts, and/or other aid on people that aren't paying taxes. Seriously it should be eligable to vote and register and/or pay taxes to get a say in government and the census. If you don't pay taxes and/or vote then you don't get a #$%^ing say.

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Jnap
Message #2070 - 04/04/10 05:40 PM



Cali, you have a rather narrow view. Registering to vote and doing so is a right in the US but not a requirement for citizenship and representation. Sure, everyone should do it but it is not required.

Paying taxes is another thing that, by itself, should not be a requirement for being counted. A person could have paid taxes all of their lives; is now retired and doesn·t earn enough to have to file a tax return. I can·t imagine why someone not paying Federal taxes or voting would make them less of a citizen and not entitled to be counted? I am sure they are paying local taxes and definitely have an effect on their community, infrastructure, health services, transportation systems, and other things. The same is true for illegals and I would like them to be counted also.

The trouble is that they are going to evade being counted for fear of deportation and rightfully so.

But we can·t say they don·t have an effect on our country.

Immigration is something this country is going to have to deal with but it would be very hard to do using the census.

Lastly, the best way to look at the census is that it is a way to allocate money. In fact it is all about tax money and to whom it is to be allocated. It is simple: be counted or potentially lose out on Federal and state money that might go right into your pocket.

---

BGA4444
Message #2071 - 04/05/10 02:03 PM

Hundreds of thousands of unemployed Americans set to lose unemployment benefits today. Washington needs to do the right thing and extend these peoples benefits. Suddenly the politician A-holes want to start paying for something now-on the backs of the unemployed! Do the right thing you jerks!

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great depression1
Message #2072 - 04/05/10 02:26 PM

Hyper-inflation is here dudes...............

---

decoy409
Message #2073 - 04/05/10 03:02 PM



Money is spent from the house,the house continues to lose money. What does the house do? Open tabs for all of the players on credit? That is not only highly doubtful but simply will not happen.

This is not about job creation or reforming the country back into our forefathers ways but a disassembly and a new world order.

What I would like to see is a bank run. Then we would see ignorance at it's finest by all of those that continue to pump the sunshine.

Why if there was a bank run do you really think that there is enough money for everybody to cash out? Of course not you sillies that said yes.

As the destruction remains masked so the majority have no idea what is happening and has happened,soon surprize,surprize will strike them across the cheek and then they will wake up. And all of those that have supported the pumping of sunshine,well I wonder if they have a ticket to the underworld for doing so?

---

1939s
Message #2074 - 04/05/10 04:03 PM

A person could have paid taxes all of their lives; is now retired and doesn·t earn enough to have to file a tax return. I can·t imagine why someone not paying Federal taxes or voting would make them less of a citizen and not entitled to be counted?

Very well said Jnap.

If you don't pay taxes and/or vote then you don't get a #$%^ing say.

LivingInCali : this is a nonsense. People who have paid taxes all their lives gave you as an American the opportunity to prosper and you obviously have. You should be grateful to them, not discount them as now being non-citizens because they are poor. I'll take them over an overpaid $xx million CEO any day as representing why America became and is a great country.

---

LivingInCali
Message #2075 - 04/05/10 04:27 PM

LivingInCali : this is a nonsense. People who have paid taxes all their lives gave you as an American the opportunity to prosper and you obviously have. You should be grateful to them, not discount them as now being non-citizens because they are poor.

So they can't vote either? I never claimed they weren't citizens, and if they paid taxes before then sure, they deserve the right to be counted, but some system probably catches them other then manually going to their house and physically counting them. If you really want to add one more caveat to the count, then count the people that receive various types of welfare, stuff like social security, disability etc. We know who pays taxes, we know who receives services, and we know who votes, without spending millions of dollars on hiring people to count other people. With so many unemployed people know we might as well pay people to count other people than to give them unemployment checks for nothing, but to say we need to hire a million people to count 300+ million people is a bit of a reach to me. The data is somewhat valuable, but really there should be a easier way to do this and/or a cheaper way to do this. That is my point.

I'm tried of the country constantly spending more money then they take in and increasing the bill for the younger generation. We're seriously taking out credit cards in our unborn kids names just so we don't have to feel any pain now, because we deserve it. It's time for that mentality to end. End the entitlements except for the truly needy. Tell the people the truth about social security and other underfunded government programs while they can maybe still do something to prepare for the necessary cuts in the future. Of course all everybody wants to do is take everything promised now and hope they aren't around for the end.

---

neohguy
Message #2076 - 04/05/10 05:34 PM

I'm tried of the country constantly spending more money then they take in and increasing the bill for the younger generation. We're seriously taking out credit cards in our unborn kids names just so we don't have to feel any pain now, because we deserve it.

SS security comes to my mind. I thought it was meant for people that became too old to continue working. I don't think it was meant to be a multi decade vacation entitlement. I have no problem with certain people getting it when they become an age and are unable to work. Do we really deserve it if you have the means to get by without it? I've been fortunate enough that I can. Others haven't and I have no problem with providing them with assistance.

Tell the people the truth about social security and other underfunded government programs while they can maybe still do something to prepare for the necessary cuts in the future.

Cali, I've heard about the coming SS shortage since the late 60's. The problem was acknowledged by everybody. It was one of the few things that SDS and Bill Buckley jr agreed. Everybody knew. The problem is that too many were hoping to kick the can (no pun) down the road to future generations.

[bga4444]

Crying Tree
Message #2077 - 04/05/10 05:46 PM

Social Security was put into the general Fund or it would be in great shape. Social Security was promised to be for retirement of the workers of the USA only. Taking money from the general fund by out great politicians has made it was it is today.

---

LivingInCali
Message #2078 - 04/05/10 05:49 PM

I have no problem with certain people getting it when they become an age and are unable to work. Do we really deserve it if you have the means to get by without it? I've been fortunate enough that I can. Others haven't and I have no problem with providing them with assistance.

I completely argee that there should be some safety net for those that are truly too old or truly uable to work but to say I put money in and I'm planing to take more money then I put in out whether I need it or not is a problem. We have programs like Medicaid that takes over when you've exhausted your savings but many children try to commit minor acts of fraud to hide this money from teh government so they can inherit it while not paying for mom's or grandma's nursing care. Why should we allow somebody with a confortable retirement nest egg to extract social security from the system when they don't really need it and the money ends up being inherited by their kids. Why not claw back social security taken when somebody dies. It's not going to be very popular to those expecting or receiving an inheritance but why should someone's kids be entitled to thousand of dollars extracted from the social security system. I don't mind tax free estates as long as the money taken from the system is paid back first. Go ahead and leave a million tax free to your kids if you didn't use government money for anything. If you did, give back the government money first and then leave whatever is left.

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decoy409
Message #2079 - 04/05/10 06:15 PM

I'm tried of the country constantly spending more money then they take in and increasing the bill for the younger generation. We're seriously taking out credit cards in our unborn kids names just so we don't have to feel any pain now, because we deserve it. It's time for that mentality to end. End the entitlements except for the truly needy. Tell the people the truth about social security and other underfunded government programs while they can maybe still do something to prepare for the necessary cuts in the future. Of course all everybody wants to do is take everything promised now and hope they aren't around for the end.

Now that is very well put.

How about SCREW taking money out of today's paychecks for SS! Why should anybody be paying in when there is none for them! Then those that have it coming,well it can be taken back from the same ones that were in charge and robbed the people of it!

That's all this whole dam thing has been is for the elite. Rob from Peter to pay Paul! Well they have drained dam near all there is to be drained and now we are suppose to give them our clothes off of our backs?

They were not happy enough with what we gave up to them and now they want the rest.

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frank q
Message #2080 - 04/05/10 08:09 PM



Nooooo! God!!! Not ANOTHER day of profits!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it stop!!!!!!!!!!! I just can't take it anymore!!!!!!!!!



Just kidding! A big wet raspberry to all you Doom and Gloomers out there!!!!!!!!! Har Har Hardy Har Har!!!!

---

BGA4444
Message #2081 - 04/07/10 11:34 AM

Hey Frank you are right! Unemployment, homelessness, and foreclosures are all just figments of our imagination. As long Wall st. is going up screw everyone else-right?

---

Here in the US
Message #2082 - 04/07/10 12:51 PM

Market going up. Great news! But who are the ones making money and how did they make it? What product are they making and who is buying it? Where are the profits coming from? Again i see paper moving but no hard assets in motion. Show me the machines being built. Show me some real construction and not just stuff being finished that they hope they can sell. Where are the thousands of homes that were to built near you? See all the For Sale signs in the fields? The Market is running on Bail money still. How can a bank be hundreds of millions of dollars in the hole and overnight make billions? If you and i would do accounting as the banks do. Would you share a cell with me when we go to jail? It is a "Paper Market" not based on goods or products only hype.

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frank q
Message #2083 - 04/07/10 01:12 PM



Hey Frank you are right! Unemployment, homelessness, and foreclosures are all just figments of our imagination. As long Wall st. is going up screw everyone else-right?



The situation is improving. I look at the glass as half full. There has always been unemployment, in fact, full employment was considered a 5% unemployment rate. There has always been homelessness and foreclosure, though no doubt much more now. Some of that has been collateral damage of a soft economy, some through the poor choices and actions of those people themselves. I'm not advocating screwing anybody. It's about making investments. Pure and simple. If you don't want to believe that things are improving, so be it. When you guys figure out that business is worldwide and not confined to our own borders then you'll make some money. We'll see how things develop. Good luck.

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frank q
Message #2084 - 04/07/10 01:13 PM



Hyper-inflation is here dudes...............



Really? Where?

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engleclair
Message #2085 - 04/07/10 01:18 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with those who are skeptical of this "recovery". Boasting about the markets being up is ignorant and quite frankly an embarrassment because it only REEKS of fear.

Just do your own stress test in your head...

If there were a run on the banks would said banks have enough money for all of its depositors? YES or NO?

Will all of our nation's problems be solved by the time the TARP money is exhausted? YES or NO?

Are these budget cuts nationally and locally a one-time solution or just the beginning? I'll help you out with this one; these cuts are implemented to JUST STOP THE BLEEDING. We're not paying off debt or creating long term job growth.

Sadly, I feel like we're just biding time until everything collapses. We're too far gone.

---

BGA4444
Message #2086 - 04/07/10 01:34 PM



Frank, I indeed know that companies are starting to sell much more outside the US borders. However, that did not start happening since the downturn. That growth has been happening for decades. Still we import much more than we export. The market bounce back has come on the backs of all Americans and generations to come. It has been subsidies driven. The export/import deficit is killing us! The outsourcing of jobs is killing us! The worst situation is our own government is killing us. I agree with Englclair we may have already fallen over the abyss and we don't even know it. Frank, answer this how is America going to pay just the interest on the debt without breaking us? I am waiting to hear your slick answer for that one!

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frank q
Message #2087 - 04/07/10 01:35 PM



Yeah, I have to agree with those who are skeptical of this "recovery". Boasting about the markets being up is ignorant and quite frankly an embarrassment because it only REEKS of fear.



Ignorant? No. Cognizant? Yes. It is you guys that fear, not me. I respect your opinions. If you truly believe the "end" is near, then form a plan of action and, well, act! What is ignorant is assuming the view from inside your little box is the same for everyone everywhere. Investors will profit (hopefully) in markets up or down. The sooner you realize that Joe Average, with his 401K, has recovered most of his/her money in the last year if they didn't panic, the better you should all feel. People that feel better about their lot in life participate in life as well as the economy that is 70% consumer driven. Home sales are up, prices have stabilized in most areas and are rising in others. Auto sales are climbing WITHOUT CASH FOR CLUNKERS. Retail is up. Service sectors are up. If you believe things are as bad or worse now than 16 months ago, then you are in the fog. I'm sorry that American companies are making most of their money overseas. Oh well. I can cry about it, or I can profit from it and put some of the money to good use, like sending my kids to college.Or, maybe I'll even (gasp) buy some stuff! Maybe, it will be something that you are involved with making!

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Driftr
Message #2088 - 04/07/10 01:38 PM

If there were a run on the banks would said banks have enough money for all of its depositors? YES or NO?

Of course not. There never has been enough cash on hand and there never will be.

Will all of our nation's problems be solved by the time the TARP money is exhausted? YES or NO?

I think you're confusing TARP with the stimulus package. Regardless, the answer to your question is once again no. We will never run out of problems in this nation.

Are these budget cuts nationally and locally a one-time solution or just the beginning?

Hopefully just the beginning.

Sadly, I feel like we're just biding time until everything collapses. We're too far gone.

Nice attitude. Why don't you just go curl up in the fetal position right over there in the corner and wait for the collapse. We'll let you know when it's over.

[bga4444]

BGA4444
Message #2089 - 04/07/10 01:39 PM

I did like the play on words!- "frank-ly" an embarrassment !LOL

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engleclair
Message #2090 - 04/07/10 01:44 PM

Okay, Frank.

Why don't newspapers, television, and the collective media give Americans reports on each respective bank's solvency? WEEKLY or DAILY.

Why does a Wall Street analyst tell a CNBC anchor that "someone, who we don't know, comes in in the last hour and buys a LOT of stock"?

Please point me or guide me to a report where we have been paying principal on a loan. It can be federal, state, or local debt.

And please tell me how many months it will take to recoup the job losses of the last 3 years.

---

BGA4444
Message #2091 - 04/07/10 01:44 PM



Driftr, same question as Frank above. How will we pay the interest on the debt without it breaking us?

You guys ever see the car title loans-interest so high it breaks people! Those loans should be illegal!

Same as National debt it should be illegal too!

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frank q
Message #2092 - 04/07/10 01:50 PM



Frank, I indeed know that companies are starting to sell much more outside the US borders. However, that did not start happening since the downturn. That growth has been happening for decades. Still we import much more than we export. The market bounce back has come on the backs of all Americans and generations to come. It has been subsidies driven. The export/import deficit is killing us! The outsourcing of jobs is killing us!



That's right! It has! I have posted about this very thing numerous times, and I tire of it. The same people that complain are the ones who shop at Wal-Mart, drive Japaneese cars because a GM product they bought when Carter was President sucked, and hire non-English speaking people to work at their homes or businesses. They are generally the same people that want to earn "American" wages but they want to spend at "Third World" prices. I do what I can on my own, but what am I to do when the people of California complain about having to spend Federal money on steel made in America for the Bay Bridge project instead of importing it? Why should I feel sorry for people that complain that they are paid crap wages, work hours that they are not paid for, and have no benefits, when they complain about unions and call us scum? I won't anymore. Nobody put gun to head and forced Americans to buy imported stuff. The sooner ALL Americans take some ownership of the problems, the sooner the situation will improve. Sorry, but I won't hold my breath. I'll keep looking for opportunity in these markets and take care of my family. If that doesn't suit you, too bad.

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engleclair
Message #2093 - 04/07/10 01:50 PM

Driftr-

So you hope these budget cuts are just the beginning, right? Well, here in New Jersey those budget cuts will account for 10,000+ people losing their jobs. 5% of the 200,000 New Jersey Education Association. As of June 30th they are ALL out of jobs.

How about next year when state workers are on the chopping block?

These cuts aren't even making a DENT into anything substantial; they are merely a BAND AID.

---

BGA4444
Message #2094 - 04/07/10 01:57 PM

Frank, most of your 2092 post I really agree with you. Americans all need to change and I believe we slowly are. Even if we change, how do we pay just the interest on the national debt? Your thoughts?

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Driftr
Message #2095 - 04/07/10 01:58 PM

Frank, answer this how is America going to pay just the interest on the debt without breaking us?

The answer is simple. Stop spending more than we take in. Getting people to elect someone that will pledge that will be the tough thing. Everyone has their hand out. Noone wants to pay for the excesses of the past. I am willing to. Will you join me?

So you hope these budget cuts are just the beginning, right?

Yes.

How about next year when state workers are on the chopping block?

Good. Keep it up. People can either pay enough in taxes to pay for the services they're getting from the public sector, or they will need to get used to fewer services. There is no more having your cake and eating it too. Well, there is, but I wish there weren't.

These cuts aren't even making a DENT into anything substantial; they are merely a BAND AID.

The walk of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

---

engleclair
Message #2096 - 04/07/10 02:03 PM

"The answer is simple. Stop spending more than we take in. Getting people to elect someone that will pledge that will be the tough thing. Everyone has their hand out. Noone wants to pay for the excesses of the past. I am willing to. Will you join me?"

You didn't answer the question here. Are you a politician? I'll go a step further, how will we start paying principal on the debt? You're going to force Johnny and Jill American to live WAY below their means? How is that possible? Isn't credit a lifeline to small business owners and the general public?

---

BGA4444
Message #2097 - 04/07/10 02:05 PM

Driftr, do you have any idea how much money just the interest is on the national debt? Stopping spending will help but to pay the interest each year is going to kill the market and send us to a place worst than we are now. There is no simple way out. The funny thing is you guys think we have suffered here in America and you have not seen suffering yet. Just wait its coming- the day of reckoning.

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neohguy
Message #2098 - 04/07/10 02:05 PM



It never ceases to amaze me that some people who feel that things are in recovery mode feel inclined to boast about how their aggressive investing strategy is superior to those that prefer an asset preservation strategy at this time. frank q, you feel that things are getting better and are investing accordingly. Fine. Many are not convinced because they feel that the glass is not half full at all but actually has a hole in it. That's fine too.

The following article is by Rick Davis of the Consumer Metric Institute. He is not a conspiracy theorist. He provides excellent reasoning, imo, about why the 70 yo system for measuring GDP is outdated. It is well worth the read and I would be interested in frank q's and others take on it. I personally agree with most of it and intend to be very defensive with my money at this time.

philsbackupsite.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/interview-with-rick-davis-of-the-consumer-metrics-institute/

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frank q
Message #2099 - 04/07/10 02:06 PM



Okay, Frank.

Why don't newspapers, television, and the collective media give Americans reports on each respective bank's solvency? WEEKLY or DAILY.

Why does a Wall Street analyst tell a CNBC anchor that "someone, who we don't know, comes in in the last hour and buys a LOT of stock"?

Please point me or guide me to a report where we have been paying principal on a loan. It can be federal, state, or local debt.

And please tell me how many months it will take to recoup the job losses of the last 3 years.



You can get info on any bank right off the web.



Who cares who and when and how much stock someone buys? You think Bernanke is putting in buy orders every day right? Stocks are bought by investors all over the world.



We're not paying debt yet. We are still in the public sector cuts stage which we need to do. First people bitch because government is too bloated and wastefull, then they bitch when cuts are made. First and foremost, government needs to manage with what they get, then we can worry about paying the debt.



I don't know how long it will take. Some jobs probably will never come back. Keep buying foreign stuff at every opportunity and they never will.



If many, if not most people would manage their money just a little better there wouldn't be obscene interest rates on payday and car title loans because they would not exist! There would simply be no market for them.





So you hope these budget cuts are just the beginning, right? Well, here in New Jersey those budget cuts will account for 10,000+ people losing their jobs. 5% of the 200,000 New Jersey Education Association. As of June 30th they are ALL out of jobs.

How about next year when state workers are on the chopping block?


I guess job cuts are only for scumbag union autoworkers and all those industries related to auto, not public employees right? So when the pool of available taxpayers dwindles we should just keep spending more money on these jobs and continue to provide top flight benefits to them while most private sector employees face wage freezes or even reductions to pay and benefits. I guess public employees should have "immunity" from bad economies the rest of us have to suffer through right? Let me guess, you are, or are married to, a public sector worker.

---

engleclair
Message #2100 - 04/07/10 02:14 PM

Frank-

Follow the bouncing ball... I know bank information is online (albeit probably cooked); I want the general public to know how bad (or good) our banks are doing. If they can tell us about Sandra Bullock's husband having an affair they can tell us that during a bank run, many people will NOT get all of their funds.

I also agree with bloated government, but who is going to pick up the slack when those jobs ARE (not when and if) cut? I'll give you a hint... those who are still working will pick up the slack.

And the stock purchaser is alluding to the government. Why doesn't the government provide figures that they are or aren't padding the market?

[bga4444]

Driftr
Message #2101 - 04/07/10 02:14 PM

Are you a politician?

No, I'm an accountant at a defense contractor that also employs my wife. I would have no problem with one of us losing our job when our national defense spending gets cut in half (needed in order to get federal spending under control IMO).

I'll go a step further, how will we start paying principal on the debt?

That is step 2 in my two step plan. Once we have stopped spending more than we take in, we gradually start spending less than we take in.

You're going to force Johnny and Jill American to live WAY below their means?

I don't understand how you make the connection between the local/state/federal government needing to cut its expenditures to its receipts and Johnny and Jill American being forced to change their lifestyle. Unless Johnny and Jill are used to a Public sector job and have no private sector salable talents.

How is that possible? Isn't credit a lifeline to small business owners and the general public

It is easy to live within your means. Credit is most certainly (and IMO should remain) a lifeline for small business owners. It shouldn't be a lifeline for the general public. Weening people off of their personal credit addiction is not a requirement to stopping the addition to and eventually beginning to pay off the national debt, but I think it is something to aspire to.

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frank q
Message #2102 - 04/07/10 02:17 PM



neo,



I'm not boasting, I was just responding tongue and cheek to a previous post by another person. The fact that my investments have done reasonably well doesn't make me the Anti-Christ either, nor does it make me ignorant. It reinforces the fact that I am reasonably intelligent and adaptable. Everyone out here has opinion and they are entitled to them. Opinions are, or at least should be, subject to change based on changing conditions. And like it or not, everything is in a state of flux, always changing. Those who want to dig in their heels and hold steadfast to ideas and strategies that were effective years ago are certainly entitled to do so, but they risk having that bus we call the world pass them by. Good luck again to all.

---

Driftr
Message #2103 - 04/07/10 02:21 PM

Driftr, do you have any idea how much money just the interest is on the national debt?

I think for 2010 the estimate is 164 billion. That is 7.1% of the estimated 2.3 Trillion 2010 receipts.

---

engleclair
Message #2104 - 04/07/10 02:22 PM

In order to start making some real progress wages MUST be cut (ie. home prices dropping, less people making over 50K or whatever). How are Johnny and Jill American going to pay for their two cars, mortgage, AND impending college tuition on reduced salaries.

I'm not trying to attack you; I think you have good ideas. However, your plan looks like it will take decades, if not a century, to get the debt under control. Inflation will outpace paying off the debt (ie. higher prices for resources, aging population, etc. etc.).

---

frank q
Message #2105 - 04/07/10 02:23 PM



I know bank information is online (albeit probably cooked);



Yes, whatever you want. All those different rating organizations that are not government funded are all in cahoots. Sure, every bank is insolvent. Is that what you want to hear?



If they can tell us about Sandra Bullock's husband having an affair they can tell us that during a bank run, many people will NOT get all of their funds.



Anybody that wanted their money from an insolvent bank during this downturn, got their money. Maybe if more people worried about their spending and personal budgets, the economy, and their government and voted, instead of worrying about Sandra Bullock or Dancing with the Stars, we would be in better shape.

---

frank q
Message #2106 - 04/07/10 02:25 PM



wages MUST be cut



Not for the average private sector worker!

---

engleclair
Message #2107 - 04/07/10 02:28 PM

Yes, whatever you want. All those different rating organizations that are not government funded are all in cahoots. Sure, every bank is insolvent. Is that what you want to hear?

Is Bank of America insolvent?

Anybody that wanted their money from an insolvent bank during this downturn, got their money. Maybe if more people worried about their spending and personal budgets, the economy, and their government and voted, instead of worrying about Sandra Bullock or Dancing with the Stars, we would be in better shape.

Where did those people get their money from? The government or, more specifically, the taxpayer! What happens when that well dries up?

---

Crying Tree
Message #2108 - 04/07/10 02:30 PM

Japan is still recovering from their housing boom. China is just starting. Canada over 9% on housing loans. As far as Americans go, some will always have more than they can pay for because paying back was not an option, just something in the future that did not matter until it came due. Now it it is due. Depression, disaster or just poor planning with poor math skills.

---

engleclair
Message #2109 - 04/07/10 02:30 PM

Not for the average private sector worker!

What??? The private sector is immune?

---

Driftr
Message #2110 - 04/07/10 02:33 PM

In order to start making some real progress wages MUST be cut (ie. home prices dropping, less people making over 50K or whatever). How are Johnny and Jill American going to pay for their two cars, mortgage, AND impending college tuition on reduced salaries.
I'm not trying to attack you; I think you have good ideas. However, your plan looks like it will take decades, if not a century, to get the debt under control. Inflation will outpace paying off the debt (ie. higher prices for resources, aging population, etc. etc.).

I don't see why we need to reduce wages. I do agree housing is overpriced. If J&J aren't both working, why do they need two cars? Why do Johnny and Jill have to send their child(ren) to college? Why not steer a child towards a trade? I know I'm going to be seeing if either/both of my girls are interested. The last couple handy men I've used have both been OLD. And I'm no spring chicken (early 40s) so for me to call someone old, they're old. Same goes for the guy we had out to fix the air conditioner last summer and the guy that had to come out and do some electrical work this winter.

Seeing as it took decades to get ourselves into this mess, I don't see how there is a quick fix to paying off the debt. However, I don't think it'd need to take 10 years to get the budget balanced if we all understand that it is going to hurt.

---

frank q
Message #2111 - 04/07/10 02:34 PM



What??? The private sector is immune?



What? No! The private sector employees have been taking their lumps all along!!!! Where have you been?? Jeez!!

---

neohguy
Message #2112 - 04/07/10 02:34 PM

I'm not boasting, I was just responding tongue and cheek to a previous post by another person. The fact that my investments have done reasonably well doesn't make me the Anti-Christ either, nor does it make me ignorant. It reinforces the fact that I am reasonably intelligent and adaptable.

Believe me, I am glad you are doing well. The more of us that prosper the better, regardless of our strategy.

[bga4444]

frank q
Message #2113 - 04/07/10 02:37 PM

Believe me, I am glad you are doing well. The more of us that prosper the better, regardless of our strategy. Here's to you neo!

---

engleclair
Message #2114 - 04/07/10 02:39 PM

What? No! The private sector employees have been taking their lumps all along!!!! Where have you been?? Jeez!!

Oh, sorry. My sarcasm detector has been malfunctioning lately.

---

Driftr
Message #2115 - 04/07/10 02:41 PM

Is Bank of America insolvent?

I think so, but then again I believe in a reinstatement of MTM. Under the current rules, unfortunately they aren't.

Where did those people get their money from? The government or, more specifically, the taxpayer!

The FDIC. No, not the taxpayer. The FDIC is funded by the banks themselves. Unless you want to talk about how the fees are passed on to the bank customers which I won't argue with, but we do have options in where we bank and if you haven't seen this before I suggest you take a look at [www.bauerfinancial.com/btc_ratings.asp] this web site in determining where you bank. I would agree with you if you said that the FDIC is not closing banks in a timely fashion to prevent losses to the Fund though.

What happens when that well dries up?

Either the FDIC assesses the banks more fees (I think they're already paid forward like 3 years or something) or the FDIC borrows from the FED. I forget how much they're pre-approved for, but they'd need to pay it back from future fees collected.

---

engleclair
Message #2116 - 04/07/10 02:43 PM

However, I don't think it'd need to take 10 years to get the budget balanced if we all understand that it is going to hurt.

I think you hit the nail on the head, that last part. HURT. And I agree that people THINK we are "hurting" now; they haven't even smelled HURT yet.

---

decoy409
Message #2117 - 04/07/10 03:18 PM



People have a tendency to lose touch with what has transpired,they forget all of the details and only remember what suits them,their own personal space.

This talk of "vote them out" is no more than a delusional person or one that must be helping keep the viewers from seeing behind the curtain.

Lobbying cake now being spent in insurmountable amounts by corporations to make sure that the right canadate is elected is no joke. So who is voting? You,me? No in fact our votes matter not as the votes are bought. One only needs to look at Bush celebrating his second term before a formal decision of the matter was announced. And it was 5 that made that decision in the final judgment of his new term. Track records of those speak for themselves.

You talk about paying down the national debt but you do not even come close to addressing why this is no longer feasible.

Next door 'Author Says G-20 Meeting in Scotland this Week about Dumping U.S. Dollar' I dropped some more than interesting and FACT bearing information this morning as to the IMF and some things that you never saw or just forgot about.

Instead of arguing I would suggest that you review that information and after you very well should have a different take on your words.

On another side,how does that feel to think there is a slow climb of profit when we see the market in turn act as it is today. They will take a lot at a time and when they can not do that they will milk it a little at a time.

Nooooo! God!!! Not ANOTHER day of profits!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it stop!!!!!!!!!!! I just can't take it anymore!!!!!!!!!



Just kidding! A big wet raspberry to all you Doom and Gloomers out there!!!!!!!!! Har Har Hardy Har Har!!

---

frank q
Message #2118 - 04/07/10 03:33 PM

What do you mean "acting as it is today"? How is it acting?

---

decoy409
Message #2119 - 04/07/10 03:49 PM



Gerald Celente, Financial Conmen on Wall Street (NWO ECONOMICS SERIES/'Fraudsters & Money Junkies')http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb1wnCVVCyQ

March 15,2010

---

Crying Tree
Message #2120 - 04/07/10 04:06 PM

Adaptable. Nice word. Either adapt or become extinct. Wages are too high for some and too low for others. Prices are mixed. See what you can get. The key words today-How Much $? Winners, Losers and those not playing. I want it now and price dosn't matter pay top dollar. Losers.

---

frank q
Message #2121 - 04/07/10 04:30 PM



crying tree,



I believe you are talking to me. In this day and age I believe you do have to adapt to changing economic situations or be left in the dust. I don't mean to sound crass or heartless, but I'm a realist that believes things will improve but not necessarilly for everyone. it is indeed unfortunate and I make light of nobody's situation, but Darwin's Law applies these days it seems. We have to do the best we can with what we have to work with. The game is what it is. We have to play it within the confines of the rules that exist today or not play at all. My attitude is that life is about winning. Winning is what you, as an individual, defines it to be. You can't win if you don't play, and if you decide to play, play to win.

---

BGA4444
Message #2122 - 04/07/10 05:06 PM

GM loses 4.8 billion in just months but may make a profit this year! GM wants to get back in the market ASAP. I wonder why? Churches going bankrupt and being foreclosed on at a alarming rate. Hey forget all that! The market is going up and things are fine just fine!

---

frank q
Message #2123 - 04/07/10 06:18 PM



Churches going bankrupt and being foreclosed on at a alarming rate. Hey forget all that!



And churches have exactly what to do with G.M.? Or business for that matter.

---

Driftr
Message #2124 - 04/07/10 06:23 PM



Everyone knows UAW are greedy SOBs. Any decrease to their hours or hourly rate is bound to come directly out of the funds they donate on Sunday. That's why you have churches failing. UAW fault. Duh!











































j/k :-)

[bga4444]

frank q
Message #2125 - 04/07/10 06:29 PM



Japan has been in a 'recession' essentially for over eighteen years as a result of their overinflated real estate asset bubble that "popped" back in 1990. Deja vu for the good ole' USA; same damn thing over here,



No, it's not. The median age in Japan is over 50 years old, and the population is actually shrinking. Both bad for an economy. We have no such issue here.



All by the way, I would gladly work for $15/hr.; non-union of course. Not like the $35-40/hr. unions that are bringing the auto industry down to the ground!!



I'm sure you would. Lets see if you can even qualify for the 8 year financing on that Toyota you would then buy, if you could even get a loan for a 30K car on $15/hr. Of course, you have to take out taxes, medical insurance, etc. because you wouldn't have much in the way of benefits. And I suppose you'd have to throw the kids some food here and there. Well, maybe a nice used '01 Hyundai at least...........

---

Jnap
Message #2126 - 04/07/10 09:58 PM



It is really strange to read about how unfair the ·capitalist· system is while, at the same time, find many thinking that it is the path to prosperity. Which is it fair or unfair?

Is a UAW worker earning $45.00 an hour unfair or is it the result of many years of negotiations with American auto manufactures. Certainly they could afford it until the Japanese manufactures came here, aided by State Government incentives and not needing to pay union wages, slanted the playing field. They further slanted the field by hindering American imports and discouraging their own citizens from buying American cars. But isn·t that what the Capitalistic system all about: competition? So, if the Japanese produced a, perceived, better car at lesser cost and manipulated the market place then they are doing a better job at competing aren·t they? But, what about the unlevel playing field and fairness?

Capitalism doesn·t say that everything has to be fair but only that the best at competing prosper.

Many companies have had inferior products and thrived while others, with superior products, failed.

Sometimes it is about how well something is marketed. Or maybe it is about cutting prices, even while losing money, to gain market share and undermine the competition.

Capitalism is often brutal and is probably not the best system but until a better one comes along it is currently the best mankind has created. However, knowing that does not make the millions of people unemployed by companies, competing in the Capitalistic system, feel any better, does it?

Do you remember the famous gangster line about it not being personal but only about business? I am damn sure it felt personal to those being laid off; or in the case of the gangsters, killed.
Unemployment and the economy will improve when the Capitalistic system says it is time to hire and people decide it is time to spend. It is going to be gradual but it will happen just as it has happened many times in the past. By the way, if you have a better system in mind how about sharing it with the rest of us, otherwise we are going to have to go with the system we have, fair or unfair.

---

ComoKate
Message #2127 - 04/08/10 12:13 AM

By the way, if you have a better system in mind how about sharing it with the rest of us, otherwise we are going to have to go with the system we have, fair or unfair.

Well. we certainly know where you stand.

---

kman49
Message #2128 - 04/08/10 12:38 AM

Sometimes it is about how well something is marketed.

Do you remember the famous gangster line about it not being personal but only about business?

In a nut shell. This is what it is all about. I can sell cheap and beat my competitors. I choose to sell what my customers wants for more than what my competitors can deliver.

Capitalism is about knowing your customers. Americans know customers. Why do you think they all wish to adopt our system.

---

Crying Tree
Message #2129 - 04/08/10 02:36 AM

Be fair and know your customers. Customers all think they are the CEO of the world. Me First, all others can wait. Fair? All's Fair in Love & War plus Money? That never was a factor. Don't count on that one. How about being born rich? Poor is unfair-Is It? If you don't know then no one is wiser.

---

BGA4444
Message #2130 - 04/08/10 11:39 AM

Jnap, you can stop using the word "capitalism". In a true capitalistic society businesses flourish and fail. The weak companies are purchased by the strong ones and it is business as usual. Here in America we now have what I phrase as business-socialism. The government chooses which business thrive or fail based on who has the best relationship with politicians. The too big to fail is just business-socialism at its finest. For instance GM too big to fail, nope just kidding government throws money after money at them. Then in the end the fastest bankruptcy in the history of bankruptcies. What changed? Cit too big to fail months ago but in the end bankruptcy. The clowns are running the proverbial big business circus. Capitalism dead in America using the word is a waste of breath!

---

Crying Tree
Message #2131 - 04/08/10 12:42 PM

Safeway & other super market chains had no problem running mom & pops grocery stores out of business. Now Wal Mart is doing the same to them and their crying unfair. Some cities tell Wal Mart what they can sell or not sell. Where is free enterprise? You step out the door and your breaking the law of free movement restrictions. No stopping- No parking-No to everything unless you a buck or have connections. This is not the land of the free but the land of pay-pay-pay.

---

Here in the US
Message #2132 - 04/08/10 01:23 PM

Land of The "pay-pay-pay"? You must mean Chicago or an Airline. Sorry Chicago is the land of "sell-sell-sell". Only Chicago can get Billions of dollars for selling roads and parking meters and still be broke.

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djrick
Message #2133 - 04/08/10 01:50 PM

anyone see this?



[online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304620304575166192781597892.html] Shortfall Awaits California's Big Pension Funds - WSJ.com

A study released Monday by Stanford University estimates that California's three largest state-operated, public-employee pension funds·the California Public Employees' Retirement System, California State Teachers' Retirement System and University of California Retirement System·currently face a total shortfall of more than $500 billion.




that has to be a typo..500 billion Dr. Evil

[] YouTube - Dr Evil's Laughing Scene

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Silver Onyx
Message #2134 - 04/08/10 02:01 PM

Here in America we now have what I phrase as business-socialism. The government chooses which business thrive or fail based on who has the best relationship with politicians. The too big to fail is just business-socialism at its finest.

Excellent post! The only thing I might add is: the word "Selective", in front of business-socialism.

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BGA4444
Message #2135 - 04/08/10 06:11 PM

Thank you Silver. I agree, "selective" is perfect because the companies are selected based on relationships not good sound business principles! Plus it has a nice ring- "Selective business socialism". Do you think Harvard will add it to the new cool business terms this year?

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BGA4444
Message #2136 - 04/12/10 04:11 PM

"The dirty secret of the housing recovery, though, is that in the worst-hit markets -- Florida, California, Nevada, Arizona and other places where the foreclosure boom is concentrated -- there's one important number that hasn't gotten better. That's the percentage of people who can't pay their mortgages. Believe it or not, that number is rising faster than ever."



Mark Gimein wrote this today on the MSN money page about the housing crisis- and you guys really believe anything except the market is recovering? America lives and thrives based on a good strong housing market. Every uptick in the history of upticks have risen along with the growth of housing. But not this uptick. This uptick is 100% inflation driven. It is a house of cards and soon everyone will know that.

[bga4444]

djrick
Message #2137 - 04/12/10 08:06 PM



Matt Taibbi had done it again...(profanity included)


There is, of course, a huge difference between working 80 hours a week in a profession that you love and which promises you vast financial rewards, and working 80 hours a week digging ditches for a septic-tank company, ... Most of the work in this world completely **** balls and the only reward most people get for their work is just barely enough money to survive, if that.

[trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2010/04/10/brooks-let-them-eat-work/] Brooks: Let Them Eat Work - Matt Taibbi - Taibblog - True/Slant

---

djrick
Message #2138 - 04/12/10 08:07 PM



Another gem from the article above....

But then you come to this last line of his, in which he claims that ·for the first time in history, rich people work longer hours than middle class or poor people,· and you find yourself almost speechless.




I would give just about anything to sit David Brooks down in front of some single mother somewhere who·s pulling two s****& minimum-wage jobs just to be able to afford a pair of $19 Mossimo sneakers at Target for her kid, and have him tell her, with a straight face, that her main problem is that she doesn·t work as hard as Jamie Dimon.

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Stay Put
Message #2139 - 04/12/10 09:03 PM



Captain of the Titanic to the first officer.

Captain: Tell me the bad news and the good news.

1st Officer: Sir, an iceberg tore a hole in our ship, and we are certain to sink.

Captain: So what's the good news!?

1st Officer: The orchestra is playing a lovely tune on deck.

---

Jnap
Message #2140 - 04/12/10 10:42 PM



To call our economic system ·socialist· is ridicules. Yes the Government helped a handful of companies survive but there are over 6 million companies in the United States. The fact is that a few were prevented from failing because the repercussions would have been very dire for millions of people and would have caused even greater unemployment than we currently have.

To read what many say on this message board it would have been better, in their minds, for the whole system to have collapsed so we could start from scratch. That is beyond ridicules because having 30% unemployment would hardly be better than having 9.7%.

Maybe what they are saying is that misery needs company and they are feeling lonely.

Another thing to remember is that millions of people in the US struggle to make ends meet but not necessarily the same people constantly. I have struggled during one part of my life, as I am sure many others have, but it was through that struggle that I decided that I needed to take a different path in life if I wanted to succeed. I do acknowledge that million are unable to change their lot and that is one of the reasons we have a minimum wage as inadequate as it may be.

The point I am trying to make is that the Capitalistic system is not supposed to fair or unfair but is a system of conducting business akin to survival of the fittest. Most of the time it works, as is evidenced by the relative prosperity of our citizens but maybe what we guilty of is complacency. Mark twain said· what caused most countries or societies to fail was success·. To paraphrase, maybe we got just a little too comfortable for our own good.

I still have faith in our system because, as I said previously, it is the best anyone has come up with so far.

Comokate, please don·t take that as being unsympathetic to the millions struggling because I am but I really don·t know what more can be done beyond what is currently in place. I am afraid we are just going to have to wait for the system to correct itself.

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Crying Tree
Message #2141 - 04/12/10 11:01 PM

Dec.23, 2012 the correction will be here in full force. Get A FRONT ROW SEAT. Just be on the planet. The rich work harder counting their money every night. Low pay for workers. The GEO. Greedy Executive Officer.

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Stay Put
Message #2142 - 04/13/10 02:10 AM

Can anyone say Progressive spin doctors?

---

djrick
Message #2143 - 04/13/10 02:26 AM



Per ABK, the big boys who enjoy unlimited leverage are hugely confident that they can sky any stock (on any whiff of a rumor) just by flinging money at it, all at the same time.




That over-confidence is a classic sign of a market top.




There has never, ever been a stock market built on excessive leverage that didn't end in disaster.




The only difference between "history" and now is that the policymakers are the ones enabling and encouraging the excessive leverage. Also, the big boys basically are now playing these games by themselves, with themselves.

---

BGA4444
Message #2144 - 04/13/10 11:41 AM



The " voice of small business " NIFB said their latest poll shows small business owners see the next six months as unchanged or negative.

Unlike Wall st. firms these are the guys that hire Americans. It ain't happening. Main st. business is still bad. My small company just ended the first quarter with yet more negative sales numbers. Down 4% vs. first quarter 2009. We just keep going the wrong way!

---

Falling Sky - Not
Message #2145 - 04/13/10 12:30 PM

Down 4% vs. first quarter 2009

We are down 6.33% vs. 2009. And last year was down 20% from the 2008. Not looking good out here so far. I'd like to hear what other businesses are experiencing. One of our manufacturers also just announced an 8% increase in costs effective 1 June 2010.

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txbizownr
Message #2146 - 04/13/10 01:22 PM

Down 4%

we had an ok march but qtr was down over 9% from last year (12%), so same story here,february (the worst month I have ever had ) with the weather (snow) here in dallas didnt help but customers are still very hesitant to make the large purchases..been "surviving" on a larger # of smaller orders



tx

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BGA4444
Message #2147 - 04/13/10 02:07 PM

Falling, we just had price increases from our three largest wholesalers. It is amazing we keep lowering prices and making less and less margin. I do not care what Wall St. is doing, main street is still doing awful. We have just announced to our installers of a 20% decrease in pay. We had to do this just to try and stay afloat till things hopefully improve.

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BGA4444
Message #2148 - 04/13/10 02:17 PM

Txbiz, same story here in Atlanta. We have two locations January was worst month in the history of the company, at one location. February was the second worst month in company history at our other location. I am seeing the same thing you are with much more small jobs and folks really afraid to spend money!