Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 10:05:09 GMT -5
I love dogs and I do blame the owner, BUT, everytime I see that dog, I see my own, splayed out on the vet's table, his tummy covered with bloody holes and him near death (this was last Dec). If that dog comes charging at us one more time, I am pretty sure I'd have no hesitation harming him.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:11:08 GMT -5
You do what you have to to defend your pets. Too bad you can't pepper spray/tazer the stupid owner.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 19, 2013 10:23:23 GMT -5
I think his history should be on record. It should be noted that he seems to be aggressive only towards other canines, not humans....
This doesn't matter, dogs attacking other dogs are only thinking about fighting. A human trying to get the dog away from his dog could be seriously injured even if the dog never intended to go after them specifically. Of course it matters. Nearly all dogs are aggressive toward something because it's natural. Mice, rabbits, squirrels, etc. It clearly makes a difference if a dog is aggressive toward another animal vs attacking a human. A human trying to get a rabbit away from a dog could also be seriously injured, doesn't mean every dog on the planet should be noted as "aggressive" because they chase squirrels. It should be pretty obvious to everyone that it makes a very big difference if a dog is aggressive to humans or not. I'd certainly rather have a dog in my neighborhood who shows dog vs dog aggression than a dog in my neighborhood who can think of nothing other than attacking humans.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 19, 2013 10:24:29 GMT -5
I love dogs and I do blame the owner, BUT, everytime I see that dog, I see my own, splayed out on the vet's table, his tummy covered with bloody holes and him near death (this was last Dec). If that dog comes charging at us one more time, I am pretty sure I'd have no hesitation harming him. I love dogs and have done dog rescue, fostering, you name it. I posted about spending several thousand dollars curing strays from heartworm many years ago. That said, I'll kick a dog as hard as I can and possibly hurt or kill it if it is attacking me, my dogs, or my child. No question. But pepper spray is a perfectly good alternative. I would not recommend a taser because you have to aim it or bend down to touch the animal which can result in them biting your arm or hand. Pepper spray can splay out an area, and if you happen to hit your own animal it will hurt it but won't permanently injure it. But as you pointed it out, it's hard to have ready. Get a belt perhaps that keeps it handy.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 19, 2013 10:28:37 GMT -5
I love dogs and I do blame the owner, BUT, everytime I see that dog, I see my own, splayed out on the vet's table, his tummy covered with bloody holes and him near death (this was last Dec). If that dog comes charging at us one more time, I am pretty sure I'd have no hesitation harming him. No doubt it's reasonable to protect your pets and yourself. Sorry you're going through this and hope your diplomacy efforts work. You might want to talk to your vet about what method of deterrent he'd suggest. None of them is without risk or failsafe: Cattle prod - you'd need to have pretty good coordination and control over not just your dogs (who may be lunging at the time) but single arm control of the prod to get it on the heeler as it's running towards you. Those herding dogs are wicked fast and might be able to dodge the prod more quickly than you can apply it. Once the dogs are together, the current might travel through and shock your dog as well. Depending on the setting strength, you might kill the heeler and/or your dog. Taser - same issues as with prod. Pepper spray - if you get the good quality stuff (like the police use, not the stuff you buy at the corner store), it's very directable because it comes out under high pressure. That said, if it's very windy it can blow back over you and your dogs. Or if you're aiming it and your dog pulls/jostles you, you can spray yourself, your husband or your dog. Luckily it's not fatal, so none of you will die, but it could be a very unpleasant experience for you. Ammonia in bottle - same issues as with pepper spray, except even more prone to being blown back by wind since your bottle isn't going to be under high pressure, so the stream drifts more easily. Anyway, I'm not mentioning this to say you should do any or all of these things, just that they all have risks that might be a big deal to you in your personal situation... or not. It's worth talking to your vet to see if he has suggestions. He knows you and your dogs so can guide you to a good choice that will work best in your situation, hopefully.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 10:33:05 GMT -5
I love dogs and I do blame the owner, BUT, everytime I see that dog, I see my own, splayed out on the vet's table, his tummy covered with bloody holes and him near death (this was last Dec). If that dog comes charging at us one more time, I am pretty sure I'd have no hesitation harming him. No doubt it's reasonable to protect your pets and yourself. Sorry you're going through this and hope your diplomacy efforts work. You might want to talk to your vet about what method of deterrent he'd suggest. None of them is without risk or failsafe: Cattle prod - you'd need to have pretty good coordination and control over not just your dogs (who may be lunging at the time) but single arm control of the prod to get it on the heeler as it's running towards you. Those herding dogs are wicked fast and might be able to dodge the prod more quickly than you can apply it. Once the dogs are together, the current might travel through and shock your dog as well. Depending on the setting strength, you might kill the heeler and/or your dog. Taser - same issues as with prod. Pepper spray - if you get the good quality stuff (like the police use, not the stuff you buy at the corner store), it's very directable because it comes out under high pressure. That said, if it's very windy it can blow back over you and your dogs. Or if you're aiming it and your dog pulls/jostles you, you can spray yourself, your husband or your dog. Luckily it's not fatal, so none of you will die, but it could be a very unpleasant experience for you. Ammonia in bottle - same issues as with pepper spray, except even more prone to being blown back by wind since your bottle isn't going to be under high pressure, so the stream drifts more easily. Anyway, I'm not mentioning this to say you should do any or all of these things, just that they all have risks that might be a big deal to you in your personal situation... or not. It's worth talking to your vet to see if he has suggestions. He knows you and your dogs so can guide you to a good choice that will work best in your situation, hopefully. I would be very careful about what you use to defend your dogs as it could result in the owner suing you for causing injury or death to his animal. this would be another reason for animal control to be notified so that there is a record of the dog being dangerous towards your dog. I hate POS owners (other dog's owner, not you).
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 10:37:44 GMT -5
Thanks, milee This is very good information. My first priority is to convince them to muzzle the dog. A good quality pepper spray may be next (I need to evaluate what we have). But also, we will make suree there are both of us walking the two dogs. No more taking two dogs at once when one of us isn't home.
And I'll talk to the vet about deterrents. The last thing I want to do is hurt our dogs.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 19, 2013 10:37:53 GMT -5
Well since it is YM, after all, I have to say that if you do take action against the heeler from a monetary liability standpoint you want to make sure it's dead, not injured. If it's dead, you will be liable for the market value of the dog because although it's incredibly controversial, the law considers dogs a possession for which there are no pain and suffering, loss of use or other potential damages. So you'd owe the owner the what, maybe $200? it would take to buy another heeler.
If you injure his dog, though, you'll be liable for full vet bills just like he is liable to you for your dog's injuries that his dog caused.
Of course I'm not saying you should hurt or kill that dog, just making a note on an interesting legal situation regarding the value of dogs.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:42:31 GMT -5
I'd certainly rather have a dog in my neighborhood who shows dog vs dog aggression than a dog in my neighborhood who can think of nothing other than attacking humans.
It hasn't attacked a person. . .YET. Nobody has any way of knowing if at some point this dog will attack a person. It's getting loose from it's yard and running around the neighborhood. The owner is not controlling the dog and and out of control dog is dangerous to everyone.
All dogs are capable of attacking people. That's why as an owner you are supposed to be properly restraining your dog and keep it contained within your property.
I can tell you that my dogs have't attacked a person. . but I cannot assure you that it'll never happen. Especially if I don't behave responsibly and let my dog run around loose in the neighborhood. If I'm not in control, anything can happen.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 10:44:55 GMT -5
I'd certainly rather have a dog in my neighborhood who shows dog vs dog aggression than a dog in my neighborhood who can think of nothing other than attacking humans.
It hasn't attacked a person. . .YET. Well, that is true - so far as I know. If it has, the owners would not be broadcasting it. For all I know it has attacked other dogs. I only know about the two attacks on mine.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 10:54:18 GMT -5
The dogs should be documented so AC knows they have an owner with an out of control dog. Should god forbid it get ahold of a person everything will go a lot faster since he's already been documented as being an irresponsible owner.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 19, 2013 11:00:40 GMT -5
Well since it is YM, after all, I have to say that if you do take action against the heeler from a monetary liability standpoint you want to make sure it's dead, not injured. If it's dead, you will be liable for the market value of the dog because although it's incredibly controversial, the law considers dogs a possession for which there are no pain and suffering, loss of use or other potential damages. So you'd owe the owner the what, maybe $200? it would take to buy another heeler.
If you injure his dog, though, you'll be liable for full vet bills just like he is liable to you for your dog's injuries that his dog caused.
Of course I'm not saying you should hurt or kill that dog, just making a note on an interesting legal situation regarding the value of dogs. A pure heeler would be worth a heck of a lot more than $200. Just sayin'. Probably closer to $500.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 19, 2013 11:02:25 GMT -5
I'd certainly rather have a dog in my neighborhood who shows dog vs dog aggression than a dog in my neighborhood who can think of nothing other than attacking humans.
It hasn't attacked a person. . .YET. Well, that is true - so far as I know. If it has, the owners would not be broadcasting it. For all I know it has attacked other dogs. I only know about the two attacks on mine. It actually seems likely that it would have attacked other dogs. Unless you are the only dog owner around, then what are the odds that it got loose twice with your dogs & never any other time. And dog vs dog aggression is extremely dangerous simply because humans tend to try to break up the fight. So even if it is never aggressive towards people, it's uncontrolled aggression towards other dogs could easily end up with a person getting injured.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 19, 2013 11:11:56 GMT -5
Well since it is YM, after all, I have to say that if you do take action against the heeler from a monetary liability standpoint you want to make sure it's dead, not injured. If it's dead, you will be liable for the market value of the dog because although it's incredibly controversial, the law considers dogs a possession for which there are no pain and suffering, loss of use or other potential damages. So you'd owe the owner the what, maybe $200? it would take to buy another heeler.
If you injure his dog, though, you'll be liable for full vet bills just like he is liable to you for your dog's injuries that his dog caused.
Of course I'm not saying you should hurt or kill that dog, just making a note on an interesting legal situation regarding the value of dogs. A pure heeler would be worth a heck of a lot more than $200. Just sayin'. Probably closer to $500. Gotcha. Although I've owned a lot of them, I've never bought a dog. My dogs showed up as strays, I scraped 'em off the road after they'd been hit and nobody claimed them, I adopted from the shelter or someone gave them to me. My favorite was the stray that looked like '70s shag carpeting. When people would ask what type of dog she was, I'd say "brown."
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 11:19:46 GMT -5
The dogs should be documented so AC knows they have an owner with an out of control dog. Should god forbid it get ahold of a person everything will go a lot faster since he's already been documented as being an irresponsible owner. This. I now regret not reporting last Dec, but I felt that everyone deserves a second chance. Also, he may have been protecting his turf (we were in front of his house on the opposite side of the road). Monday's attack happened 1/2 mile from his house. DH said they passed the dog and owner without incident. But after they were about 100 ft away, he charged. Whether he slipped his collar or the owner let him off leash, we don't know. But there needs to be a report. It will happen again unless they muzzle him every single time.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 19, 2013 11:24:51 GMT -5
You can still tell AC about the attack in December. It may or may not apply to his current record but better more information than less. It'll depend on your county laws if it's applicable and counts as a strike.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 19, 2013 11:31:33 GMT -5
Definitely tell them about the December attack. And your veterinarian certainly has the records to show he treated your dog for the attack back then.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 11:46:29 GMT -5
Oh I will. And I still have the bill.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jun 19, 2013 11:47:17 GMT -5
Well, that is true - so far as I know. If it has, the owners would not be broadcasting it. For all I know it has attacked other dogs. I only know about the two attacks on mine. It actually seems likely that it would have attacked other dogs. Unless you are the only dog owner around, then what are the odds that it got loose twice with your dogs & never any other time. And dog vs dog aggression is extremely dangerous simply because humans tend to try to break up the fight. So even if it is never aggressive towards people, it's uncontrolled aggression towards other dogs could easily end up with a person getting injured. Not to mention that humans can make the attack worse. Dogs can read your energy and emotions. If you are fearful while the attack is happening (a natural response) it can make it even worse.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 19, 2013 12:42:06 GMT -5
A pure heeler would be worth a heck of a lot more than $200. Just sayin'. Probably closer to $500. Gotcha. Although I've owned a lot of them, I've never bought a dog. My dogs showed up as strays, I scraped 'em off the road after they'd been hit and nobody claimed them, I adopted from the shelter or someone gave them to me. My favorite was the stray that looked like '70s shag carpeting. When people would ask what type of dog she was, I'd say "brown." I have 'small, medium, and large'. lol. I started looking into breeds and costs because I'd find certain strays and people would "claim" them because they were worth $2000+ dollars and I was clueless why most dogs never get returned to their owners but sometimes my phone would ring off the hook with people who lost "spot" or "max" or whatever. So I started cluing into it. And I stopped posting pictures of the dogs when I found them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 12:49:20 GMT -5
I think his history should be on record. It should be noted that he seems to be aggressive only towards other canines, not humans....
This doesn't matter, dogs attacking other dogs are only thinking about fighting. A human trying to get the dog away from his dog could be seriously injured even if the dog never intended to go after them specifically. Of course it matters. Nearly all dogs are aggressive toward something because it's natural. Mice, rabbits, squirrels, etc. It clearly makes a difference if a dog is aggressive toward another animal vs attacking a human. A human trying to get a rabbit away from a dog could also be seriously injured, doesn't mean every dog on the planet should be noted as "aggressive" because they chase squirrels. It should be pretty obvious to everyone that it makes a very big difference if a dog is aggressive to humans or not. I'd certainly rather have a dog in my neighborhood who shows dog vs dog aggression than a dog in my neighborhood who can think of nothing other than attacking humans. I wouldn't try to save a rabbit or a squirrel from a dog but I would do whatever it took to keep another dog from hurting or killing mine as would my 11 year old son. We're not just going to sit and watch. Hence the reason I say it doesn't matter who the main aggression is towards. The dog is dangerous in a neighborhood with other dogs.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 19, 2013 13:36:43 GMT -5
I tried to save a lizard from my cat the other day, and the lizard got away. Too bad we were inside. I have no idea where that thing went. Hope he found a happy spot.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 19, 2013 13:43:43 GMT -5
::Hence the reason I say it doesn't matter who the main aggression is towards. The dog is dangerous in a neighborhood with other dogs.::
Except that it does matter. A dog who is aggressive towards dogs is dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as a dog who is aggressive towards people.
::I wouldn't try to save a rabbit or a squirrel from a dog but I would do whatever it took to keep another dog from hurting or killing mine as would my 11 year old son.::
Plenty of people have rabbits for a pet, or a chicken, or whatever. Their pets are no less important than yours which just happens to be a dog.
And it sounds as if you need to better teach your son about how to deal with potential situations if your son would "do whatever it took" to keep another dog from hurting yours. I can't imagine you think your son's life is more important than your dog's.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 15:05:05 GMT -5
::Hence the reason I say it doesn't matter who the main aggression is towards. The dog is dangerous in a neighborhood with other dogs.:: Except that it does matter. A dog who is aggressive towards dogs is dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as a dog who is aggressive towards people. ::I wouldn't try to save a rabbit or a squirrel from a dog but I would do whatever it took to keep another dog from hurting or killing mine as would my 11 year old son.:: Plenty of people have rabbits for a pet, or a chicken, or whatever. Their pets are no less important than yours which just happens to be a dog. And it sounds as if you need to better teach your son about how to deal with potential situations if your son would "do whatever it took" to keep another dog from hurting yours. I can't imagine you think your son's life is more important than your dog's. We have rabbits, chickens, goats, horses and a gecko. People expect to be able to safely walk their dog on a leash. I dont see too many doing the same with a chicken. But if a dog was coming on my property killing anything, I would shoot it.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 19, 2013 15:08:07 GMT -5
I tried to save a bird from my cat once. Once I had pried his jaws apart the poor bird was so mangled I ended up having to kill it anyway just to put it out of its misery.
New policy - let cat finish the job then dispose of the carcass.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 19, 2013 16:49:16 GMT -5
Pepper spray....nonsense, I'd go for a tazer. A little tit for tat doesn't hurt. Do that one time to the dog and he probably won't be a bother again. I understand the high emotions of the situation you're in, but I don't think I could bring myself to hurt another animal just because I wanted to punish its irresponsible owner. :-( No, but there's something to be said for letting the owner think you would.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Jun 19, 2013 19:08:46 GMT -5
As someone who has owned an aggressive lab/great dane/pit mix, I would never attempt to hit an aggressive dog with an object or cause harm with pepper spray.
It is hard to figure out what makes them tick and my dog would bite/attack out of fear. One of the neighbors hit him with a shovel and the dog never forgot. Any opportunity he got to go after the neighbor he took. Including climbing fence, or going through glass windows. He pinned the neighbor in a shed, stood on the hood of his truck and growled nonstop at him. He would get that dead deer smell that dogs put off.
The neighbors needed to attempt to make friends with him instead of alienate him. He was a great dog once he knew and liked you. But of course the hardhead neighbor did not get the dog had a memory like an elephant and he would win every time.
Of course every time animal control came and tested him, the officer was nice to him, talked kindly and the dog was loving towards him.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 20:08:09 GMT -5
As someone who has owned an aggressive lab/great dane/pit mix, I would never attempt to hit an aggressive dog with an object or cause harm with pepper spray. So what would you do if an aggressive dog was tearing your frail, aging dog to pieces? Stand there? Nicely ask it to please stop?
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jun 19, 2013 20:50:25 GMT -5
GG - so sorry you are going through this. I have no patience for people who fail to control difficult and dangerous dogs. I have one myself. She was severly abused and neglected before being rescued and then adopted by my former fiance at about age 2. She has adapted beautifully and loves most people but still does not like anything else in a fur coat. She wants to be the only princess in the house is the way the rescue organization put it.
She came to me almost 3 years ago when he lost his ranch, was transferred for work and could not take her with him. I realized that in committing to a dog with anti-social issues towards other aniimals that I had to be extra careful. There is a gate at the top of some steps to the front door and I added a second gate at the base. I check all gates at least once per week and whenever service people are here. I do not leave her outside alone when I am not home and get a dog sitter when needed. I always use a choke chain on her leash so she cannot slip off if it. Obedience is still very important and we practice every other day. Safety is just not something I screw around with because I am sure she could still go from zero to cocker spaniel in 2.3 seconds despite the fact that she is almost 11 years old with bad hips.
She minds, does what I tell her to do and stops. However I try never to risk anything. It is not her fault, or mine, that she was trained to attack as a puppy but it is my fault if I fail to protect her, and others.
I think your neighbor needs to be reported to Animal Control - obviously he is not able or willing to handle his dog properly. He had a chance 6 months ago and still the dog is allowed to behave in a dangerous manner. I agree with using whatever means necessary and at hand to end a dog fight - pepper spray, hose, 2x4, etc.
I am sure there have been other incidents besides your two. My question is this: what if it were a child next time and you had not called?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 19, 2013 21:03:54 GMT -5
Found our county ordinances regarding dangerous animals....
6.05.070 Harboring vicious or dangerous domesticated animal. (1) It is unlawful for any owner to keep, harbor or maintain on or off the owner’s premises in a manner liable to endanger the safety of persons or property lawfully upon the premises, or upon any street, avenue, alley, public or private place, or to allow to run at large within the unincorporated area of East Jefferson County, any vicious, menacing or dangerous animal with vicious propensities. Any such animal is a nuisance and may be immediately seized and impounded.
6.05.090 Injury to property. It is unlawful for any owner to suffer or permit any dog to trespass on private or public property so as to damage or destroy any property or thing of value. The same is a nuisance and any such animal may be seized and impounded. [Ord. 4-84 § 9]
Note: Dogs are considered "property" as noted in a previous post.....
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