973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 24, 2013 16:08:34 GMT -5
oh my god... can we please stop coddling kids ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) Like others have said.. if the red ink upsets them so much, they'll work harder the next time to get less red ink. Kids will never succeed if they never understand failure. Or we can stop pretending that little kids are really just short adults. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png) Years ago I read almost word for word what you wrote talking about kids with ADD/ADHD. That if we just stopped coddling kids they would straighten up and fly right. If it is okay to tell one child it then it is okay to tell the ADD kids the same thing right?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 24, 2013 16:09:53 GMT -5
If a kid gets his/her feelings hurt over something the solution is not always to just stop doing whatever it is that is making the child upset, which basically is what this boils down to.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 24, 2013 16:17:09 GMT -5
Switch the teachers' red pens for this and everyone (but the teacher) will be happy: ![](http://www.coolthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/kgbpen1.jpg)
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 24, 2013 16:24:48 GMT -5
ambadylab.stanford.edu/pubs/Rutchick-Slepian-Ferris_EJSP[1].pdf. it didn't copy well and I know I can't post too much of it without spamming. It is a good read though for anyone who likes reading about studies. they did three of their own and cite at least a hundred others on the subject. My favorite part though was this. "Moreover, people using red pens to correct essays marked more errors (Study 2) and awarded lower grades (Study 3) than people using blue pens. Thus, despite teachers’ efforts to free themselves from extraneous influences when grading, the very act of picking up a red pen can bias their evaluations."
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 24, 2013 16:31:48 GMT -5
<<<picks up phone to make an appointment with therapists for red pen recovery>>>
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Apr 24, 2013 16:35:51 GMT -5
That is unfortunate. Why don't they use purple pens, or green...that would be more PC, don't you think? But I feel your grief. Where my kids go, the teachers can still flog them a dozen times if they haven't learned their Latin, Religion, Math and Science...and I pay good money for these beatings. You got to be cruel to be kind. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) The idea that we are all winners, that every child is special, that we should never compare and compete, is anathama to me. There are really stupid people/kids, who probably don't deserve to go beyond the sixth grade, most average people function at a grade 8 level, and the creme de la creme, are community college bound. Now obviously I am being somewhat fascitious...but some people have a desire to not hurt little Johnny or Jane at any cost, when they should be told from the outset...there is absolutely nothing special about you...go out and compete and prove yourself with and against the other 6.9 (or is it 7.2, these days) billion people. Realism, is like a great cold shower after you cut the Lawn in 98 % weather.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 16:43:22 GMT -5
I guess you have to have a visceral response to red ink to understand it, lol...
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 24, 2013 16:58:12 GMT -5
Or we can stop pretending that little kids are really just short adults. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png) Years ago I read almost word for word what you wrote talking about kids with ADD/ADHD. That if we just stopped coddling kids they would straighten up and fly right. If it is okay to tell one child it then it is okay to tell the ADD kids the same thing right? I'm not following the giant leap you've just made from a teacher using a red pen to grade papers to kids with ADHD I think kids need to experience failure at some point in their life.. it's a great humbler and character builder. I tell my kids all the time "The world does not revovle around you"... I'm not going to wrap my kids in bubble wrap and stick my head in the sand so my kids never get their feelings hurt. If my kid comes home upset because he got his paper/test marked up with a bright red pen... guess what I"m going to tell him? Yup.. "Well then next time you need to study harder and answer the questions correctly." He won't like it... but it's what will need to happen. My point was that people used to tell kids that they could just try harder and it would all work out when they had add. Actually my brother was told almost word for word what you wrote. Back then they called him hyper though. I posted a link to one study. Actually they are hundreds and hundreds about the color red. it isn't something that can just ignored. There is a reason why we have many saying like "seeing red" or "swimming in red ink" in our culture. The reaction is visceral. The color just has so much meaning it needs to be just not used for grading papers. they have studied this again and again using blue ink and other colors for grading. It always works better for both the person being graded and the person doing the grading. so why is this still being argued about still? Do we need another 300 studies saying saying the same thing first? Again I am not saying don't grade the paper just do it in blue or some other color since we know it make for better learning.
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sam
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Post by sam on Apr 24, 2013 16:58:39 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I imagine this all started with an upset parent that saw little Suzie's paper filled with red marks. If more parents would work with the teachers and not against them on everything they do, I'd be willing to bet we'd start seeing more kids learning what they need to learn. One more thing..could someone tell me how to do spellcheck so I don't start looking like an uneducated fool?..I don't have far to go. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/unwell.png)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 24, 2013 17:12:54 GMT -5
could someone tell me how to do spellcheck so I don't start looking like an uneducated fool?..I don't have far to go.
Why would we do that. We would much rather mark your mistakes in red ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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sam
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Post by sam on Apr 24, 2013 17:35:27 GMT -5
Why would we do that. We would much rather mark your mistakes in red ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
How did I know someone would go there? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/melancholy.png) My self esteem just went out the door.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 17:40:09 GMT -5
I grade in purple. It is prettier than red. I can't grade in blue or black because I required kids to use pens of that color, and it wouldn't show up. Red is such a negative color--The Scarlet Letter, stop signs, etc. Of course, there are positive connotations like "Red Letter Day," but they are few. Grading in red for most essays is known by teachers (and probably students) as "bleeding all over the paper." However, it is a personal choice. I can grade in whatever color I like. I absolutely agree that the color of grading pens is the least of education's problems. My choice of pen is a running joke in my classroom. I tell the kids that I grade in purple because it is such a happy color. They say that it doesn't make them particularly happy when it is all over their paper. I tell them they should not be alarmed by lots of purple--that means I have taken the time to comment and respond (positively as well as negatively). They say they would willingly skip the response . . . just give them a grade. I swear, sometimes I just want to toss all the papers into the air and see where they fall. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 18:07:44 GMT -5
If the education literature says that kids do better when teachers grade in other colors, that seems like the kind of educational psychology tidbit that should be covered somewhere in your average college teaching curriculum.
And if a principal reads an article about it, that seems like the sort of thing that s/he would put on the secretary's desk with a post-it asking to order green or purple pens for the supply closet.
They shouldn't have to get the school board involved, if it is better, they should just do it. If a teacher insisted on using red pen, I'm not sure it is detrimental enough to the kids to penalize them for it beyond making them buy their own pens.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 24, 2013 18:42:21 GMT -5
How would you feel if your little suzie or bobbie was getting upset and couldn't learn
I'm going to win asshole parent of the year because I'd pretty much tell her suck it up buttercup. You're going to make mistakes in life and people are going to correct you. Life goes on. It's ink, it has no meaning in life beyond what you assign it. Fix your mistakes, learn from them and you'll see less red marks over time. Hell yeah to this...teachers always used red when I was in school. I can't remember anyone ever getting upset over it. If my kid whine about the color of the ink, I would think there were bigger issues to deal with. Seriously, we are raising a bunch of wusses...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 24, 2013 18:47:12 GMT -5
I'm not following the giant leap you've just made from a teacher using a red pen to grade papers to kids with ADHD I think kids need to experience failure at some point in their life.. it's a great humbler and character builder. I tell my kids all the time "The world does not revovle around you"... I'm not going to wrap my kids in bubble wrap and stick my head in the sand so my kids never get their feelings hurt. If my kid comes home upset because he got his paper/test marked up with a bright red pen... guess what I"m going to tell him? Yup.. "Well then next time you need to study harder and answer the questions correctly." He won't like it... but it's what will need to happen. My point was that people used to tell kids that they could just try harder and it would all work out when they had add. Actually my brother was told almost word for word what you wrote. Back then they called him hyper though. I posted a link to one study. Actually they are hundreds and hundreds about the color red. it isn't something that can just ignored. There is a reason why we have many saying like "seeing red" or "swimming in red ink" in our culture. The reaction is visceral. The color just has so much meaning it needs to be just not used for grading papers. they have studied this again and again using blue ink and other colors for grading. It always works better for both the person being graded and the person doing the grading. so why is this still being argued about still? Do we need another 300 studies saying saying the same thing first? Again I am not saying don't grade the paper just do it in blue or some other color since we know it make for better learning. I don't care what the studies say. I'm saying kids need to stop being coddled. Suck it up Suzy is what I would tell my kid.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 24, 2013 19:55:04 GMT -5
Isn't there a way to teach children, and give them a sense of self-worth? We always seem to have to take sides here. But that is the purpose of grading! You get a lot of red ink, you study harder next time to get "less" red ink or none. You get a 65, you study harder next time to get a 85. I don't want to go down the path where even in the classroom every kid gets a reward just for showing up or being in class. Kids are not stupid: red, blue, green or silver they will get the message that they got the answer wrong or they need to correct something for next time. Do you want teachers to stop grading? I never said we should stop grading. But I do know that there are some kids that don't find failure as a motivation. They just define themselves as a "bad student" and give up. I didn't realize it started in 2nd grade - but it does. And it can set the tone for their entire educational experience. You said yourself - if the corrections are in blue or green, they will still understand they got it wrong. If there is proof that red ink makes kids feel bad - why not stop using it? There is absolutely nothing about red ink that makes it the ONLY color that can be used to grade a paper.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 3:20:57 GMT -5
This is really funny . I wonder what kind of visceral reaction those red adverse kids get when there is a big red A or a big red 100% at the top of the paper. That would upset them, hurt their feelings because.............. it's red? Invisible ink is really the only fair way to grade papers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 5:59:19 GMT -5
Xmas, you are going to think its crazy, but my belly/body did a cringe at that A. I'm sorry, I can't explain it, but even those positive numbers, written in red, make me have a bad reaction. It's not logical, but its true ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 6:11:40 GMT -5
I don't care what the studies say. I'm saying kids need to stop being coddled. Suck it up Suzy is what I would tell my kid. Again, this might work great with your kid. But get a sensitive kid, or one who has a more ingrained response and it won't. Studies couch red aversion in flight or fight terms. Ie. red universally signifies danger. If you tell a kid with a heightened red responce to suck it up, you are basically asking them to turn off flights or flight instincts... Which is not possible.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Apr 25, 2013 6:12:39 GMT -5
Just have the teachers write everything in invisible ink and let the little titty babies guess what they got correct and what they got wrong.
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spartan7886
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Post by spartan7886 on Apr 25, 2013 7:04:54 GMT -5
My 10th grade English teacher would have had a field day with this. His tests were legendary. There was usually about a 20-25 point curve. A students got green pen. B and C students got red pen. D and F students got thick red marker. By 10th grade, you should be self aware enough to elect the correct level of English, whether regular, Honors, or Honors Seminar. Making a D in Seminar English means you belong in Honors.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 25, 2013 7:28:05 GMT -5
I don't care what the studies say. I'm saying kids need to stop being coddled. Suck it up Suzy is what I would tell my kid. Again, this might work great with your kid. But get a sensitive kid, or one who has a more ingrained response and it won't. Studies couch red aversion in flight or fight terms. Ie. red universally signifies danger. If you tell a kid with a heightened red responce to suck it up, you are basically asking them to turn off flights or flight instincts... Which is not possible. And this is why we are becoming a nation of wussies...god forbid we teach a kid to work through there issues...nope, we have to ban red pens!
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nogooddeed
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Post by nogooddeed on Apr 25, 2013 7:46:53 GMT -5
I edit my employees' reports in red. Evilness I tell you. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Should I stop so their adult self esteem isn't damaged? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/angry.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 7:47:45 GMT -5
"Sensitive" types wouldn't be able to work here. We do everything in red pen. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif)
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 25, 2013 7:57:59 GMT -5
While I can understand that red can be a color that raises bad emotions (you know, the whole bull fighting thing), I would be much more understanding of this issue if it wasn't for 1 million other things that we are now doing to "make sure children's self-esteem is intact".
That's why, for me, at least, it's very hard to take this seriously.
I've COMPLETELY stopped paying any kind of attention to those type of "studies" after our health professionals came up with "Oppositional Defiance Disorder". I didn't know whether to laugh or cry about stupidity of it all
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 8:02:30 GMT -5
The 17 year old my mom is raising was diagnosed with ODD when he was like 4..? I am sorry but I don't buy it. The kid was a little shit (and still is) because my mom was a shitty parent. She let him do whatever he wanted and would yell at people who tried to stop him. Then she would wonder why no one in the family ever wanted to take him/watch him. I told her if she died before he was an adult there was no way in hell I was taking him.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Apr 25, 2013 8:06:28 GMT -5
Geeze, something must be wrong with me. Red is my second favorite color following Purple. I probably would have been scarred for life if teachers had used Purple pens back in my day. Hell they probably didn't even have purple pens back then ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 8:08:14 GMT -5
I think Obama should pass a law banning all red pens. Red pens are the downfall of our society. No wonder people have gone bat shit nuts...their papers were marked up in red!
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Otto the Orange
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Post by Otto the Orange on Apr 25, 2013 8:09:25 GMT -5
My point was that people used to tell kids that they could just try harder and it would all work out when they had add. Actually my brother was told almost word for word what you wrote. Back then they called him hyper though. I posted a link to one study. Actually they are hundreds and hundreds about the color red. it isn't something that can just ignored. There is a reason why we have many saying like "seeing red" or "swimming in red ink" in our culture. The reaction is visceral. The color just has so much meaning it needs to be just not used for grading papers. they have studied this again and again using blue ink and other colors for grading. It always works better for both the person being graded and the person doing the grading. so why is this still being argued about still? Do we need another 300 studies saying saying the same thing first? Again I am not saying don't grade the paper just do it in blue or some other color since we know it make for better learning. I don't care what the studies say. I'm saying kids need to stop being coddled. Suck it up Suzy is what I would tell my kid. Meanie ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png)
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Otto the Orange
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Post by Otto the Orange on Apr 25, 2013 8:09:43 GMT -5
My point was that people used to tell kids that they could just try harder and it would all work out when they had add. Actually my brother was told almost word for word what you wrote. Back then they called him hyper though. I posted a link to one study. Actually they are hundreds and hundreds about the color red. it isn't something that can just ignored. There is a reason why we have many saying like "seeing red" or "swimming in red ink" in our culture. The reaction is visceral. The color just has so much meaning it needs to be just not used for grading papers. they have studied this again and again using blue ink and other colors for grading. It always works better for both the person being graded and the person doing the grading. so why is this still being argued about still? Do we need another 300 studies saying saying the same thing first? Again I am not saying don't grade the paper just do it in blue or some other color since we know it make for better learning. I don't care what the studies say. I'm saying kids need to stop being coddled. Suck it up Suzy is what I would tell my kid. Meanie ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png)
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