I mentioned this before - teachers can't use red pen

[whoisjohngalt]

And some people didn't believe me.

screen.yahoo.com/teachers-banned-using-red-ink-235019277.html

Turns out MD is not the only place where teachers are not allowed to use a red pen.

[reader79]

The principal at the school where my dad works (in Brooklyn) gave him two full cases to take home - hundreds of red pens, when they changed their policy a few years ago. They were those cheap stick pens and most dried out before we could use them.

[973beachbum]

To me this falls into who cares part of teaching.  The point of the teacher "marking up" the papers, regardless of what color they use, is so that the student can figure out what they did wrong.  Some kids do get upset when they see a paper filled with red pen.  Is it really that big a deal to use blue or purple?
  
They still get the point the teacher was trying to make without getting all upset.   Or was the point of it really to make them upset?

[Deleted]

I have honestly never worked in a school district that told teachers that we were not allowed to use red pens.  I have worked in 7 different districts.  I believe there are some schools that ban it, but I have never worked for one that did.  I have used all different colors to correct papers.  I don't really think about the color of the pen though.

[swamp]

When I was in HS, there was a group of teachers that had a band.  They called themselves "The Red Pens." 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Out of all the things they could be focusing on and solving this is the most pressing problem they came up with?

Sounds like a conspiracy on the part of blue ink making lobbyists.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2013 14:46:49 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Out of all the things they could be focusing on and solving this is the most pressing problem they came up with?

Thank God I was not the only one thinking that!!!

Who cares what color pen you use, blue, green, yellow... The same message will be conveyed: you got the answer wrong!

I am guessing this is from the same school of thought that you need to sandwich a bad remark or opinion with two good ones. Bleh!

[movingforward]

Apr 24, 2013 13:31:30 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

To me this falls into who cares part of teaching.  The point of the teacher "marking up" the papers, regardless of what color they use, is so that the student can figure out what they did wrong.  Some kids do get upset when they see a paper filled with red pen.  Is it really that big a deal to use blue or purple?
  
They still get the point the teacher was trying to make without getting all upset.   Or was the point of it really to make them upset?

I am not sure I understand why it is such a big deal if the kid gets upset from seeing red ink. 

[thyme4change]

Isn't there a way to teach children, and give them a sense of self-worth?  We always seem to have to take sides here.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2013 14:56:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Isn't there a way to teach children, and give them a sense of self-worth?  We always seem to have to take sides here.

But that is the purpose of grading!

You get a lot of red ink, you study harder next time to get "less" red ink or none.

You get a 65, you study harder next time to get a 85.

I don't want to go down the path where even in the classroom every kid gets a reward just for showing up or being in class.

Kids are not stupid: red, blue, green or silver they will get the message that they got the answer wrong or they need to correct something for next time.

Do you want teachers to stop grading?

[movingforward]

Apr 24, 2013 15:02:09 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Apr 24, 2013 14:56:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Isn't there a way to teach children, and give them a sense of self-worth?  We always seem to have to take sides here.

But that is the purpose of grading!

You get a lot of red ink, you study harder next time to get "less" red ink or none.

You get a 65, you study harder next time to get a 85.

I don't want to go down the path where even in the classroom every kid gets a reward just for showing up or being in class.

Kids are not stupid: red, blue, green or silver they will get the message that they got the answer wrong or they need to correct something for next time.

Do you want teachers to stop grading?

Exactly!! I dealt with red ink my whole life and I don't have any self-esteem issues because of it.  I am sick of this "everybody gets a trophy" crap.  At this rate kids are going to get a gold star just for waking up in the morning. 

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2013 14:55:27 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Apr 24, 2013 13:31:30 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

To me this falls into who cares part of teaching.  The point of the teacher "marking up" the papers, regardless of what color they use, is so that the student can figure out what they did wrong.  Some kids do get upset when they see a paper filled with red pen.  Is it really that big a deal to use blue or purple?
  
They still get the point the teacher was trying to make without getting all upset.   Or was the point of it really to make them upset?

I am not sure I understand why it is such a big deal if the kid gets upset from seeing red ink. 

Some kids are just more sensitive than others.  Most do grow out of it eventually.  My Dd used to get upset by the red I guess because she came to associate the red with she did something wrong.  As a result she probably didn't even read what they were saying as much as just reacted to being wrong.
for it to
Of course they have to mark up the papers so the students know what they did wrong and how it should have been done.  But marking it in red when there is a mistake doesn't need to be a big thing either IMO.  

I should say it probably only matters in places where the teachers ONLY mark papers in red pen, which my DD's old district did.  They also had a rule that students were NEVER to do anything in red pen or pencil.  It really doesn't take long for it to be like Pavlov's dogs.

[whoisjohngalt]

I always thought red was used bc it stands out against blue/black that kids use, so kids/parents can actually see what is marked wrong.  

[Deleted]

I have never liked to use red pen when grading. 

[movingforward]

Apr 24, 2013 15:10:32 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I always thought red was used bc it stands out against blue/black that kids use, so kids/parents can actually see what is marked wrong.  

That's what I thought too.  Our publications person likes me to use a red pen when I edit/review stuff for her because it stands out. 

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2013 15:07:19 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Apr 24, 2013 15:02:09 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

But that is the purpose of grading!

You get a lot of red ink, you study harder next time to get "less" red ink or none.

You get a 65, you study harder next time to get a 85.

I don't want to go down the path where even in the classroom every kid gets a reward just for showing up or being in class.

Kids are not stupid: red, blue, green or silver they will get the message that they got the answer wrong or they need to correct something for next time.

Do you want teachers to stop grading?

Exactly!! I dealt with red ink my whole life and I don't have any self-esteem issues because of it.  I am sick of this "everybody gets a trophy" crap.  At this rate kids are going to get a gold star just for waking up in the morning. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I could understand not writing entire projects in red pen or pencil.  Unless it was math we weren't supposed to use pencil period because it smears after grade school.

But really, THIS is where people are choosing to focus their time/energy?  You still did something wrong regardless if it is in red pen, blue pen, black pen or glittery gel pen (we weren't allowed to use those either).

So we take away the red pen and use black.  What do we use when the sensitive kids get upset over black marks on their papers?

I honestly don't care what anyone marks a paper up with but I can think of  hundreds of other things that the time spent debating the damage red pens do to kids' self esteem and whether or not they should  be banned could have been spent on.

Sorry but I find this ridiculous.  You have way too much time on your hands if you can sit around making rules about what color pen a teacher can use to make corrections.

[movingforward]

Apr 24, 2013 15:15:03 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I could understand not writing entire projects in red pen or pencil.  Unless it was math we weren't supposed to use pencil period because it smears after grade school.

But really, THIS is where people are choosing to focus their time/energy?  You still did something wrong regardless if it is in red pen, blue pen, black pen or glittery gel pen (we weren't allowed to use those either).

So we take away the red pen and use black.  What do we use when the sensitive kids get upset over black marks on their papers?

I honestly don't care what anyone marks a paper up with but I can think of  hundreds of other things that the time spent debating the damage red pens do to kids' self esteem and whether or not they should  be banned could have been spent on.

Sorry but I find this ridiculous.  You have way too much time on your hands if you can sit around making rules about what color pen a teacher can use to make corrections.

  x10 

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2013 15:15:03 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I could understand not writing entire projects in red pen or pencil.  Unless it was math we weren't supposed to use pencil period because it smears after grade school.

But really, THIS is where people are choosing to focus their time/energy?  You still did something wrong regardless if it is in red pen, blue pen, black pen or glittery gel pen (we weren't allowed to use those either).

So we take away the red pen and use black.  What do we use when the sensitive kids get upset over black marks on their papers?

I honestly don't care what anyone marks a paper up with but I can think of  hundreds of other things that the time spent debating the damage red pens do to kids' self esteem and whether or not they should  be banned could have been spent on.

Sorry but I find this ridiculous.  You have way too much time on your hands if you can sit around making rules about what color pen a teacher can use to make corrections.

They are little kids. I know on YM the common wisdom is to kick them as much as possible but I though the purpose of school was for them to learn. If not making such a big deal about it helps them learn better why isn't it the easy choice to make?  We are talking about regular school and not the med school exam.

Is it really so bad to want to concentrate on teaching the students and not want to make them so upset that they no longer focus on what they are their for?

[movingforward]

So what if a kid cries over purple ink.  How many hoops do teachers have to jump through to not hurt one kids feelings.  Do they need to grade little bobby's paper in black ink, Susie's in green and johnny's in red.  

And at what age is it okay to start grading a kids paper without fearing you are going to hurt their feelings.  What if a 16 yr old decides it hurts their feelings.  If they got the answer wrong, they got it wrong.  I get the argument of then why does it matter if they DON'T use red ink but why does it matter if they DO.  The answer is STILL wrong.  Of all the things to spend time and energy on, this just isn't one of them to me. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Who said anything about kicking them when they are down?  I said I'd be peeved that my school board apparently has enough free time to debate what color pens should be used to correct tests.  There are so many problems that this shouldn't even be an issue.

And as far as kicking them when they are down, again what happens when the kid associates whatever colored ink is now used to grade papers with "bad".  Do we switch inks again?  Stop grading?

I really don't give a shit what color papres are graded in, it's a non-issue.  It should be so far down on the list of problems to be addresed it's laughable.

But apparently someone has enough time and energy to make it into an issue and create policies.  When my kid can't even have her own up to date textbook damn right I'm going to be pissed that my school board is choosing to focus on crap like this.

[Deleted]

Apr 24, 2013 15:21:37 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Apr 24, 2013 15:15:03 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I could understand not writing entire projects in red pen or pencil.  Unless it was math we weren't supposed to use pencil period because it smears after grade school.

But really, THIS is where people are choosing to focus their time/energy?  You still did something wrong regardless if it is in red pen, blue pen, black pen or glittery gel pen (we weren't allowed to use those either).

So we take away the red pen and use black.  What do we use when the sensitive kids get upset over black marks on their papers?

I honestly don't care what anyone marks a paper up with but I can think of  hundreds of other things that the time spent debating the damage red pens do to kids' self esteem and whether or not they should  be banned could have been spent on.

Sorry but I find this ridiculous.  You have way too much time on your hands if you can sit around making rules about what color pen a teacher can use to make corrections.

They are little kids. I know on YM the common wisdom is to kick them as much as possible but I though the purpose of school was for them to learn. If not making such a big deal about it helps them learn better why isn't it the easy choice to make?  We are talking about regular school and not the med school exam.

Is it really so bad to want to concentrate on teaching the students and not want to make them so upset that they no longer focus on what they are their for?

*raise hand*

A few stupid questions:

How is changing the color pen used going to do that?

Do you think your daughter would have been less upset if it was black or blue?

My sister is super sensitive, she hates being wrong. While that motivates her , she is very competitive and helps her stay an A student, it is quite annoying to cater to her feelings 24/7 where just correcting something she may have done wrong or beating her at a game is followed by tears. Yes she is 9 and got time to grow out of it, but the earlier the better if you ask me. But she is not my child and I only have to deal with it when she visits or I visit. How long are my parents supposed to tip toe around hurting her delicate feelings? Same goes for her teacher or my brother?

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2013 15:27:45 GMT -5 movingforward said:

So what if a kid cries over purple ink.  How many hoops do teachers have to jump through to not hurt one kids feelings.  Do they need to grade little bobby's paper in black ink, Susie's in green and johnny's in red.  

Well first of all a good teacher IMO would take the students feelings into account.  It isn't boot camp.  They are  kids who need to learn things, not recuits who need to toughen up. 

How would you feel if your little suzie or bobbie was getting upset and couldn't learn?  I don't see why this needs to be a fight.  The whole point of school is to teach the kids basic subjects.  If the easiest way to do it is to just correct the paper without making such a big deal about it then they should do it.  This isn't about grades.  they will get the same grade regardless.  But if we can make it more about learning and less about "marking the paper" they might learn more which I thought was the point.

[sam]

What is the problem with telling or showing a kid they got something wrong? Are we teaching them they can do no wrong? I'd like to see them in the workforce when their boss tells them to redo something. I understand some kids are more sensitive than others but maybe it's time to toughen them up a little and stop walking on egg shells around them.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

How would you feel if your little suzie or bobbie was getting upset and couldn't learn

I'm going to win asshole parent of the year because I'd pretty much tell her suck it up buttercup.  You're going to make mistakes in life and people are going to correct you.  Life goes on.

It's ink, it has no meaning in life beyond what you assign it.  Fix your mistakes, learn from them and you'll see less red marks over time.

[Virgil Showlion]

Who cares what color pen you use, blue, green, yellow... The same message will be conveyed: you got the answer wrong!

Eventually you'll reach the point where a school is only allowed to buy one colour of pen so that incorrect papers are indistinguishable at a glance from correct ones.

Two years after that, the first of many schools will adopt the policy that papers can neither be marked right nor wrong. Teachers will be required to use "scale-free non-preferential assessment tools" and "motivationally unobstructive feedback statements", which categorically prohibit any kind of ranking, quantitative assessment, or critical feedback.

It will be the next big step in ensuring America's glorious descent to the bottom of the grade school education rankings.

[973beachbum]

Apr 24, 2013 15:32:12 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Apr 24, 2013 15:21:37 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

They are little kids. I know on YM the common wisdom is to kick them as much as possible but I though the purpose of school was for them to learn. If not making such a big deal about it helps them learn better why isn't it the easy choice to make?  We are talking about regular school and not the med school exam.

Is it really so bad to want to concentrate on teaching the students and not want to make them so upset that they no longer focus on what they are their for?

*raise hand*

A few stupid questions:

How is changing the color pen used going to do that?

Do you think your daughter would have been less upset if it was black or blue?

My sister is super sensitive, she hates being wrong. While that motivates her , she is very competitive and helps her stay an A student, it is quite annoying to cater to her feelings 24/7 where just correcting something she may have done wrong or beating her at a game is followed by tears. Yes she is 9 and got time to grow out of it, but the earlier the better if you ask me. But she is not my child and I only have to deal with it when she visits or I visit. How long are my parents supposed to tip toe around hurting her delicate feelings? Same goes for her teacher or my brother?

Well I said red only counts because it is the color of choice for marking papers in that area.  If the papers were just marked with any old color they happened to have it won't make a difference.  My DD's whole district had had rules about red pens for decades. This is not new just changed.  For years the handbook had a rule that students were not allowed to use any red pen or pencil. So whenever the student saw red marking it was because the teacher marked something wrong. The students very quickly associated the whole color red as bad.  I know because my favorite color is red.  

My son's school doesn't have any particular color for grading papers. My son doesn't like getting things wrong but doens't have the same viceral reaction to the graded paper. Ofcourse they can't cater to very single student but they can be aware that they are supposed to teach them the subject. If this gets in the way ofcourse they should take it out of the way.

[973beachbum]

So Ym decided that if you know something really simple, and for no cost, can be done to help students learn they should never, ever do it.

[whoisjohngalt]

Apr 24, 2013 15:38:56 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Apr 24, 2013 15:27:45 GMT -5 movingforward said:

So what if a kid cries over purple ink.  How many hoops do teachers have to jump through to not hurt one kids feelings.  Do they need to grade little bobby's paper in black ink, Susie's in green and johnny's in red.  

Well first of all a good teacher IMO would take the students feelings into account.  It isn't boot camp.  They are  kids who need to learn things, not recuits who need to toughen up. 

How would you feel if your little suzie or bobbie was getting upset and couldn't learn?  I don't see why this needs to be a fight.  The whole point of school is to teach the kids basic subjects.  If the easiest way to do it is to just correct the paper without making such a big deal about it then they should do it.  This isn't about grades.  they will get the same grade regardless.  But if we can make it more about learning and less about "marking the paper" they might learn more which I thought was the point.

The thing is that Susie might not like red pen and Bobby might not like to be the last in line and Jimmy might not like the color of school's shirts and Jayden might not like the color of lockers ....you get the point.  A person's feelings might get hurt by a million different thing, so now what?  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

So Ym decided that if you know something really simple, and for no cost, can be done to help students learn they should never, ever do it

If individual teachers decided not to use red ink, sure whatever it's their choice.  But yes I'd be peeved at my school board sitting around making assinine policies about pen colors.  There are much bigger problems that are interfering with students being able to learn that need fixed.

Once those are fixed THEN they can sit around and discuss pen color.

If it makes me a heartless ass that I'm more concerned with the fact our vocational programs have been shut down than the fact Susie is upset by red pens, oh well.