whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 18, 2013 8:47:14 GMT -5
I am way too.....paranoid? to be doing any kind of unschooling. First of all, not ALL kids will "learn it anyway". I loved reading and everything language related, left to my own devices, I would have NEVER and still to this wouldn't express ANY interest in math and science. I would have been a great writer and may be history buff who couldn't multiply or divide.
Another "theory" I heard (I don't have any links) is that kids before 5 are like sponges and it's MUCH easier to teach them things than later on. So, I feel like I don't want to waste those years either
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 8:52:46 GMT -5
As I said swamp, I'm not considered an unschooled at this point. While I do have faith to a point, I think you do need to know certain things in Math,Science, Social Studies.
personally, I think unschool till 8. Teach basics as relaxed and child centered as possible 9-14. From 14 on my plan is Math and Science are necessary. The rest, you plan how you are going to develop these skills...., or I will, ie. choice to a point.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 18, 2013 8:53:40 GMT -5
I have seen several families successfully homeschool their children. I've also seen absolute disaster cases. Theres anecdotal evidence for everything. Of course some parents can homeschool. But some parents are not capable of it. Fill in the blank with what ever. Im fully capable of homeschooling my kids. I choose not to for several reasons. Doesn't make me anymore right or wrong than those who do choose it. In regards to unschooling, and my understanding of it, some of us don't function well with a lack of structure. I do agree that learning should be authentic, and that we have trained teachers to avoid authenticity the past decade or so. The problem in public schools with letting kids learn what they want when they want is having differing maturity levels around each other. Public school Parentsnfreak out when a sixth grader is around a tenth grader. The philosophies of education is impossible to reconcile to one plan that fits everyone. Anyway, Carl, either you or your wife wouldn't be able to work full time if you choose home school/unschooling. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 18, 2013 8:54:44 GMT -5
As I said swamp, I'm not considered an unschooled at this point. While I do have faith to a point, I think you do need to know certain things in Math,Science, Social Studies.
personally, I think unschool till 8. Teach basics as relaxed and child centered as possible 9-14. From 14 on my plan is Math and Science are necessary. The rest, you plan how you are going to develop these skills...., or I will, ie. choice to a point. I don't consider you an unschooler, and never said you were.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 8:55:54 GMT -5
As far as the 'doing math'. I was trying to point out there is a difference between sitting down and competing the problem 8 / 2 = ... And actually splitting 8 cookies between two people.
We can argue which task show the ability to 'do math' ....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 8:58:12 GMT -5
Swamp. Just making sure ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) I was defending unschooling, but am not relaxed enough myself to be a 'pure' unschooler. I also am not a 'free parent' although I am probably more relaxed than some.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 18, 2013 9:00:40 GMT -5
If the kid doesn't have much interest in math, it's up to the teacher/parent to come up with a lesson that integrates math into what the kid is interested in. and if they still aren't interested, tough nuggies. Learn it anyway
![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif)
I'm all for encouraging kids in what their interested in/good at. I spent a summer documenting squirrel behavior in our front yard when I was 8, even made myself a little lab notebook (my mom still has it). Little things like that launched me into my career. But I HATE math. If you'd given me half a chance I would have dropped those classes like a hot potato. Problem is I NEED math to be able to do what I do. So I had to overcome my weakness in it. I will never be a math whiz but I can function in a highly technical society. Unless I'm only going to work at McD's where they have pictures on the register I need math. I can see it working if you are strict enough to enforce your child eventually learning what they don't like or aren't good at. Overcoming your weak areas is just as important as learning your strengths. If you're going to let Johnny play video games all day because "that's his passion". .. you should rethink your education plan.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 9:04:07 GMT -5
Again, you need math, but it honestly doesn't take years and years of constant drilling to get math. Just because you move away from it doesn't mean you never come back to it... And once you have the reasoning skills and are older, it takes a fraction of the time to learn... Especially if you want to learn it, or want to have the skills...
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 18, 2013 9:07:37 GMT -5
To add to what UnderwaterChloe said, there are some societal constraints that often prevent honest discussions about this subject.
Frankly, the success of any schooling method - from unschooling to traditional schooling - is going to be heavily dependent on the intelligence and characteristics of the child and on the intelligence, characteristics, availability and skills of the instructor/teacher/parent.
My guess is that certain methods work best with certain intelligence/characteristics combinations and certain methods work best with other combinations. There's no single correct answer. But there probably are answers that work best with the largest percent of the population if one were forced to generalize.
Bottom line, any method can and will work with an intelligent and/or curious child paired up with an intelligent, caring, patient, qualified, available and focused instructor. The problems arise when one of those characteristics isn't present.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 9:12:24 GMT -5
We sent our Son to" Montessori school" for 3 years when he turned 3 years and then move on to public school for elementary education. Maybe it's not for every parent but I am very happy with result. Good luck, everyone. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 18, 2013 9:14:20 GMT -5
The homeschoolers I have met and talked with around here, are mostly for religious reasons, not because they are Libertarians. The only ones I have heard with the adgenda that the Gov needs to stay out of their lives were just using homeschooling/unchhooling to hide their abuse. IMO that hurts the homeschooling community as well as it doesn't leave people with a good opinion of it, even if they are the outliers. As a general rule here the whole non trad school groups are pretty hippy dippy to begin with. Just for the record we are pretty tree hugging types ourselves. DH normally gets about ten home schooled students at the CC a semester. Most start at around 16. He has had two that were blazing success stories in the past 5 years. the young ones, 16-19, are mostly just too immature to handle college. It really does take a decent amount of maturity and understanding of what is expected from it to succeed. Who knows those kids might come back in a few years when they have grown up more. It happens with lots of students from regular schools too. Then there are a whole huge chunk of them that are just totally not prepared academically. I am not sure what to do with them except put them in the remedial classes with anyone else that isn't academically prepared. There are the religious nuts who don't want anything said infront of Jonny that might make it seem like the world is older than 2000 years. DH normally just tells them to talk to the head of the Dept. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) Maybe all the fantastically well educated homeschool kids are just hiding and I never see them but the only ones I ever meet, other than two families I know, are just plain weird it seems. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif)
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 18, 2013 9:27:28 GMT -5
Then there are a whole huge chunk of them that are just totally not prepared academically. We have had a similar experience, but it's hard to tell if it's a result of the population sample. For a fiscal conservative, I'm about as socially liberal as one gets. I had my kids in a Buddhist led preschool and then in Montessori pre-k through 4th grade (for the oldest.) Both Buddhist and then Montessori schools were very kind, happy places that the kids loved. Unfortunately, it just wasn't working for them academically and they weren't learning basic concepts, even though both are intelligent and curious. In this particular case, I think the reason was twofold - the boys both have learning disability issues which the Montessori environment tends to mask and even with very gifted, caring teachers, one teacher just simply doesn't have the time to appropriately supervise and customize individual educations for 18-20 kids. If I had kept both boys in the Montessori education through high school, which is available here, I think neither of them would be ready for college since they would not have learned the basics they needed to be ready for college. Not sure what would have happened if I homeschooled. Although I'm highly educated and love them very much, I don't know that I would have had the background or ability to identify and address the LD issues.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 18, 2013 9:37:55 GMT -5
I just wrote the most brilliant and thoughtful post ever. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) And then PB ate it. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/angry.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 9:38:10 GMT -5
My personal opinion for Montessori school is it's works best when children's young. When they start to being curious and questioning with their young minds.
They did wonderful job with our Son in teaching him. "Love of learning".
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Apr 18, 2013 9:39:59 GMT -5
When I was in school I only knew of one family that homeschooled. They decided rather abruptly to homeschool. It did not go over well for the kids. They were a deeply religious family and did it purely for religious reasons. The two kids in the family that I knew were wicked smart. The older boy flat out refused to be homeschooled because he wanted to go to college (specifically Harvard). His sister was in my grade and I loved competing with her academically. She made me up my game. The parents let them have a couple of weeks to finish out the quarter. As it came closer and closer to the end of the quarter and the end of their public school experience you could see that the girl was more and more depressed about being homeschooled. She felt that her parents were forcing her to throw her life away. Knowing her and seeing what she went through soured my opinion on homeschooling. I know that isn't fair and that they most likely weren't a normal case.
But I have always been curious- how do homeschool kids get into college? What do you do for highschool transcripts? What are the percentages of homeschooled kids going on to higher education versus traditionally schooled kids?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 18, 2013 9:40:03 GMT -5
Just because you move away from it doesn't mean you never come back to it... And once you have the reasoning skills and are older, it takes a fraction of the time to learn... Especially if you want to learn it, or want to have the skills...
So what happens if the kid doesn't want to learn it or still doesn't have the skills? I'll freely admit I still struggle with math, what takes my summer student five minutes to figure out takes me 20. If I could get out of having to know anything beyond 2+2= 4 I'd be a happy camper.
I can't do that, even though software does a lot of the heavy lifting for me I still have to know what I'm asking the computer to do otherwise my results are meaningless.
My parents made me stick with it, so did my teachers. I got help when and where I could. Nobody let me slack off and drop it just because I suck at it. I'll never love math, I consider myself barely average (though people tell me that's not true) but I kept and keep plugging away no matter how painful and embarassing it can be sometimes.
What if your kid really struggles in a subject like I do? Do you just skip over it forever? Or do you say tough noogies we're going to figure out a way for you to learn it?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2013 9:48:33 GMT -5
This video isn't really about UNschooling, but about changing education paradigms. It's definitely worth a watch.
It's almost 12 minutes - I can't pay attention for that long! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 18, 2013 9:53:22 GMT -5
What if your kid really struggles in a subject like I do? Do you just skip over it forever? Or do you say tough noogies we're going to figure out a way for you to learn it?
That's my question as well. What if your child is musically gifted and wants to play the violin all day? Do you force them do other things?
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 18, 2013 9:58:01 GMT -5
But I have always been curious- how do homeschool kids get into college? What do you do for highschool transcripts?
From my experience and DH's experience, you get into college by following an accredited home school curriculum. The college had no problem accepting our transcripts. The other route is to take the GED.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Apr 18, 2013 10:04:52 GMT -5
I have my own questions about homeschooled kids.
So homeschooling, does it teach advanced math like calculus and higher algebra? Let me rephrase this: WHEN does homeschooling tackle higher math and science concepts? Most of these high math and science concepts are necessary to get good SAT scores and to get into a STEM program.
So homeschooling moms, do you feel confortable that you can teach your kids enough for them to get into a STEM program?
Call me whatever, but DH and I want our kids to get into some kind of STEM program. Yeah I know its not the be all and end all of education. But those are actually higher paying fields and if my kids show any aptitude for it then I want them to get into STEM. If they show no inclination then into some other well paying field.
But I still want them well equipped to handle SAT.
Can anyone enlighten me about the % of homeschooled getting into STEM programs at universities? The success rate of it?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 18, 2013 10:11:13 GMT -5
I only know one family that practices homeschooling and like others have said it is due to religious reasons. There are 6 kids in the family and the 15 yr old reads at about a 3rd grade level but yet apparently has passed all the necessary tests to continue on. The kids seem socially inept. They don't really know how to interact with anyone other than each other. I guess I don't really get homeschooling... How does anyone know the kid is actually doing the work? If these kids do go away to college are they going to be able to get along in social situations and/or know how to act in a classroom? Have they been exposed to other cultures and diverse individuals? I am not trying to put down homeschooling but I think it gives a lot of parents who don't really want their child exposed to - well, life... a way to keep them sheltered.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2013 10:11:47 GMT -5
I'm sure there are plenty of people who will teach that - for a fee, or some other consideration. Oped always says that homeschooling isn't about teaching as much as it is about managing the education process, and if you are well suited in one area, you group up and find someone who is.[/span]
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2013 10:14:53 GMT -5
So many schools don't really expose anyone to other cultures or diverse individuals. I mean, maybe that one black kid at my school, who had white parents, felt she got exposed to diversity - but to me, everyone was the same economic class, same background, same neighborhood - heck, 30% of the people I was friends with lived in the same floor plan as I did. [/span]
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 10:17:53 GMT -5
One of the benefits of learning certain concepts early is that you can continue to build on them. By 8 or 9 I expect my kid to be way past basic addition/subtraction, multiplication. DS is in Montessori (he's four) and is doing addition, learning the concept of multiplication, etc. Is that not typical for a Montessori environment? Kid sewed himself a pouch the other day with real thread and put a button on it. I understand the concept of children learning better in project based environments - that rather than the teacher standing in front of you being the font of all knowledge children are led into learning through exploration. I think it takes a pretty talented, educated teacher to handle learning that way but when I see that some classrooms have 30-40 kids (we have some classes with 60+ at our high schools ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yikes.png) ) I can also see how a parent with good resources could do better. One aspect that concerns me is socialization - not with peers but in terms of expectations, ability to behave in certain circumstances. Also some learning disabilities are much better addressed if caught early. If the parent isn't aware of what to look for it would be easy to miss the signs and wait too long. Another aspect would also be discipline. I want my kid to have the ability to stick with something even if it's not immediately rewarding because it's such a valuable life skill. One of the things the Tiger mom said which I agreed with is that there are a lot of things that aren't enjoyable until you have some mastery - like playing an instrument. It takes discipline to get to the point with a skill where you get in the "zone" so to speak, which is an awesome feeling.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 18, 2013 10:18:11 GMT -5
So many schools don't really expose anyone to other cultures or diverse individuals. I mean, maybe that one black kid at my school, who had white parents, felt she got exposed to diversity - but to me, everyone was the same economic class, same background, same neighborhood - heck, 30% of the people I was friends with lived in the same floor plan as I did. [/span][/quote] I had a very different experience, I guess. Kids from one side of the tracks were bused to the other side and vice versa (depending on what grade you were in). I went to school with plenty of kids of all different cultures. I guess it just depends on where you grew up ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Apr 18, 2013 10:19:42 GMT -5
I have the same basic questions as Swasat- DS wants to be an engineer. His high school offers a pretty awesome engineering program and partners with several local companies. The department head has received multiple grants and sponsorships to expand the cirriculum. The courses now are written as basically AP courses. At the end of each year my son has the opporunity to take a test and get 3 college credits for each of those courses. I'm not smart enough to homeschool my kid. DH and I are pretty intelligent for the most part but the kid blows us out of the water. I stopped being able to help with his math homework by like the 6th grade. He comes home and starts talking about his physics class and engineerings courses and it's all I can do to nod along politely because I have no clue what he is talking about.
Sam (asking out of genuine curisoty) how do you compare a home school cirriculum to a high school transcript full of AP courses? Those two things don't seem at all the same. Plus how does a GED compare to a high school diploma? In most cases your average person is going to see GED and assume the person dropped out of high school
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2013 10:22:14 GMT -5
I'm sure it does, and I don't doubt your experience. But, if that is the reason homeschoolers wouldn't be ready for the world, then 90% of people from the rich, white suburbs (with no bussing plan) would also not be ready for college and the world. And I don't think that is true. [/span]
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 18, 2013 10:23:47 GMT -5
DS is in Montessori (he's four) and is doing addition, learning the concept of multiplication, etc. Is that not typical for a Montessori environment? Kid sewed himself a pouch the other day with real thread and put a button on it. I only have experience at 2 Montessori schools, so can't speak for what is typical. But at both of the Montessori schools where my boys went, if they were interested in addition, multiplication, etc, they could definitely learn that. One of the ways both the schools taught it was with some interesting manipulable beads, strings and squares that kids really enjoyed. The kids that weren't interested did other things. My boys were very, very interested, but didn't have the capability to store/process some of the information so it was incredibly frustrating for them and they eventually concluded they were "dumb", "bad at math", etc and focused on the lessons they enjoyed. The school encouraged that, which was part of how I ended up with a son with an IQ in the 150 range that couldn't reliably add and couldn't begin to know multiplication at the end of 4th grade. Would we have eventually discovered some of his issues and he naturally and organically become re-interested in math? Maybe. I don't know because I didn't want to risk waiting too long to find out that he would stick to his earlier conclusion that he was "bad and math" so didn't need to do it. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 18, 2013 10:24:19 GMT -5
swasat - I got a degree in math (I know my one experience is not an indicator of the norm, but I had a great experience). I did Calc 1 and 2 in high school. By the time we got to advanced courses my parents had us in tutoring or early college courses that allowed home school kids. DH's parents did the same. At that point home schooling was more about the flexible options than it was about staying in our house and never leaving or learning from anyone but mom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 10:27:12 GMT -5
So many schools don't really expose anyone to other cultures or diverse individuals. I mean, maybe that one black kid at my school, who had white parents, felt she got exposed to diversity - but to me, everyone was the same economic class, same background, same neighborhood - heck, 30% of the people I was friends with lived in the same floor plan as I did. [/span][/quote] I had a very different experience, I guess. Kids from one side of the tracks were bused to the other side and vice versa (depending on what grade you were in). I went to school with plenty of kids of all different cultures. I guess it just depends on where you grew up ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) [/quote] I agree. The one thing that I found it out from our Son was children has a tendency to hang out with like it mined children. They actuary seagate themselves from others.
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