Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[whoisjohngalt]

Let's forget for a second that customers were gay and she was following her religious beliefs.    Wasn't this country build on the idea of free enterprise?  I can understand if essential services need to be regulated, bc you don't want a firefighter not to pull you out of the fire simply bc he finds you ugly.  But for other businesses - is it fair/right that they are so regulated? 

May be a "businessman" should become a protected class as it seems that have less and less rights. 

[Deleted]

I guess I don't see the difference between this and any other law once it is on the books.

My religion might say that wine should be served with certain meals - doesn't mean I can sell it in my restaurant without a liquor license.  if you don't like the law, work to change it or move your business where sexual orientation isn't a protected class.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

Your Muslim restaurant doesn't serve pig.

[thyme4change]

No more than sitting at a lunch counter is.

This is true.  I have changed my mind.[/span]

[Shooby]

Apr 12, 2013 6:58:07 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 12, 2013 6:55:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  So, as a contractor, i can't refuse to build the Porno shop?

I already answered that.  Pornographers aren't a protected class.

Are they not exercising the First Amendment?

[Deleted]

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2013 6:37:27 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 11, 2013 22:01:27 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

having served as the florist who "put it all together" for a couple weddings recently, I can absolutely say your florist did more than just "fluff" the day of. just saying.....

I think she meant fluffer in the urban dictionary, ultimate thankless yet essential job sense.

yup, I got that...

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 7:45:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Apr 12, 2013 6:58:07 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

I already answered that.  Pornographers aren't a protected class.

Are they not exercising the First Amendment?

The pornographers? Yes.  That is why they get to make the porns.  But you are also exercising your First Amendment rights when you choose not to look or interact with the porns.

Absent any other legal protections, you are allowed to discriminate against them at will.

[Deleted]

the issue here, is her customers asked why she didnt want to do the wedding

and she answered honestly

and they didnt like that answer.....and in our wonderful litigious society, they and "their friends" are making an example of of her

so the right thing to do is say nothing....do not give reasons...or outright lie to the customer

yeah...thats what we want...more lies....more crap

and there is a HUGE difference between selling flowers on an everyday basis to a class of citizens, and catering what you know will be a "gay wedding" which goes against YOUR religious beliefs

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 7:20:19 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I want my Muslim restaurant to serve up some bacon. Or else.

Your Muslim restaurant doesn't serve pig.

They MUST serve pig.  According to me and my rights as a consumer.  They must do whatever I ask them to do, and they have NO RIGHT to refuse service to me for ANY reason.

[cereb]

"and there is a HUGE difference between selling flowers on an everyday basis to a class of citizens, and catering what you know will be a "gay wedding" which goes against YOUR religious beliefs"




No, there isn't any huge difference other than the amount of flowers.

 The florist sells flowers in small batches to customers. The florist also designs larger arrangements for functions such as weddings and the like. Typicall, the flowers are delivered and set up at the event locations. The florist is rarely part of the event other than provision of flowers.

[cereb]

Apr 12, 2013 8:57:03 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 7:20:19 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Your Muslim restaurant doesn't serve pig.

They MUST serve pig.  According to me and my rights as a consumer.  They must do whatever I ask them to do, and they have NO RIGHT to refuse service to me for ANY reason.

You are not even in the ballpark.

[kittensaver]

"and there is a HUGE difference between selling flowers on an everyday basis to a class of citizens, and catering what you know will be a "gay wedding""

=======================

Yes, there is. In a non-sectarian environment (open business commerce, for which she obtained a license) with a legal code that says you do not have the right to refuse service to someone because of their sexual orientation (Washington State), it's called discrimination.

Tell me how this is any different than turning women away at the polls, turning black away at public bathrooms, turning minorities away at lunch counters and school room doors . . . .

I get the feeling we're about to go round and round and round again . . .

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 8:46:31 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

the issue here, is her customers asked why she didnt want to do the wedding

and she answered honestly

and they didnt like that answer.....and in our wonderful litigious society, they and "their friends" are making an example of of her

so the right thing to do is say nothing....do not give reasons...or outright lie to the customer

yeah...thats what we want...more lies....more crap

and there is a HUGE difference between selling flowers on an everyday basis to a class of citizens, and catering what you know will be a "gay wedding" which goes against YOUR religious beliefs

(a) She's being sued by the state attorney general, not the couple.  The couple only made an example of her on Facebook, which is just capitalism in action.

(b) I suspect it will be a $2000 difference between the two.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

It has been established that she is not refusing to sell to gays. She does in fact sell to gays. She has even employed gays. She is refusing to PARTICIPATE in a gay marriage ceremony because her religious faith prohibits her from participating just as my favorite Muslim owned restaurant in Oak Park (or Oak NO PARKING as I've come to call it), IL will not serve up a pork roast. She isn't saying- you're gay- get out. She isn't saying- you're gay, I won't sell you flowers. She is saying she will sell you flowers, give you a job, but she will NOT participate in your marriage ceremony.

This is open and shut First Amendment. In another thread, I made the point that the First Amendment reads: CONGRESS shall make no law, and people argued with me and said States cannot violate the First Amendment, either- that it is absolute. I forced that point for a reason. I look forward to all of you on the left contradicting yourselves.

[kittensaver]

Apr 12, 2013 8:59:53 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Pornographers aren't a protected class.

Why not? Seems to be that every other group is.
Doesn't anyone realize how ridiculous this has all become?

I kinda get the feeling that if you were denied a right to vote, a job, an education, the ability to participate in free commerce in society merely because of the genitals you were born with, you'd maybe be singing a different tune . . . ?

Oh wait, being in a protected class (female) keeps that from happening to you (mostly, in this country, at least).

Ah how soon we ("the collective we") forget . . .

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 8:57:26 GMT -5 cereb said:

"and there is a HUGE difference between selling flowers on an everyday basis to a class of citizens, and catering what you know will be a "gay wedding" which goes against YOUR religious beliefs"




No, there isn't any huge difference other than the amount of flowers.

 The florist sells flowers in small batches to customers. The florist also designs larger arrangements for functions such as weddings and the like. Typicall, the flowers are delivered and set up at the event locations. The florist is rarely part of the event other than provision of flowers.

Seriously. She is a florist.  Aside from funerals, her entire business model is basically about getting people laid.  People buy flowers for dates, for Valentine's Day and anniversaries, to apologize after a fight, for marriage proposals, for weddings...  She has probably been involved in every other aspect of their gay courtship.

[kittensaver]

She is not participating in a gay ceremony.

No where in its texts does her religion tell her she's not allowed to participate in gay marriage.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 8:58:07 GMT -5 cereb said:

Apr 12, 2013 8:57:03 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

They MUST serve pig.  According to me and my rights as a consumer.  They must do whatever I ask them to do, and they have NO RIGHT to refuse service to me for ANY reason.

You are not even in the ballpark.

He's not even of this world in this case.

Besides the Muslim isn't refusing paul service. They are refusing to cave in to Paul's demand to carry a product not on their menu. McDonald's was wrong to cave into Paul. Whole milk wasn't on their list of menu items but Paul caused a big enough public scene that some employee went to another store to buy a bit of whole milk for him just to get him out of the building

It's like Paul demanding a steak at a vegetarian restaurant. If you don't like the menu, find another place to eat. Maybe someday Paul will learn the difference between product and service.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 9:03:31 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

It has been established that she is not refusing to sell to gays. She does in fact sell to gays. She has even employed gays. She is refusing to PARTICIPATE in a gay marriage ceremony because her religious faith prohibits her from participating just as my favorite Muslim owned restaurant in Oak Park (or Oak NO PARKING as I've come to call it), IL will not serve up a pork roast. She isn't saying- you're gay- get out. She isn't saying- you're gay, I won't sell you flowers. She is saying she will sell you flowers, give you a job, but she will NOT participate in your marriage ceremony.

This is open and shut First Amendment. In another thread, I made the point that the First Amendment reads: CONGRESS shall make no law, and people argued with me and said States cannot violate the First Amendment, either- that it is absolute. I forced that point for a reason. I look forward to all of you on the left contradicting yourselves.

What participate? She isn't being asked to give one of the grooms away.

She's selling a product.  Can you refuse to sell people dress shoes or hair gel if they might wear them to a gay wedding?

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 6:37:27 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 11, 2013 22:01:27 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

having served as the florist who "put it all together" for a couple weddings recently, I can absolutely say your florist did more than just "fluff" the day of. just saying.....

I think she meant fluffer in the urban dictionary, ultimate thankless yet essential job sense.

That's how I took it too.

ETA: I should add that I read everything as the Urban Dictionary definition until told otherwise! 

[kittensaver]

"Maybe someday Paul will learn the difference between product and service."

===========================

Maybe . . .

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 9:07:58 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

She is not participating in a gay ceremony.

No where in its texts does her religion tell her she's not allowed to participate in gay marriage.

do florists just send a truck and a delivery man to a wedding?

i know i have SEEN the florist at every wedding i have ever been at

If that isnt "participating", we have a different understanding of the word

That is what i see as the issue....she did not want to be seen at the event (because of her views)

Will it affect her business in the future? very possibly

But gay marraige, though legal in some states, is still not accepted by all

I would expect some rights group to help her fight this against the state

She does have rights...and freedom of religion happens to be a biggie

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 9:00:25 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Apr 12, 2013 8:46:31 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

the issue here, is her customers asked why she didnt want to do the wedding

and she answered honestly

and they didnt like that answer.....and in our wonderful litigious society, they and "their friends" are making an example of of her

so the right thing to do is say nothing....do not give reasons...or outright lie to the customer

yeah...thats what we want...more lies....more crap

and there is a HUGE difference between selling flowers on an everyday basis to a class of citizens, and catering what you know will be a "gay wedding" which goes against YOUR religious beliefs

(a) She's being sued by the state attorney general, not the couple.  The couple only made an example of her on Facebook, which is just capitalism in action.

(b) I suspect it will be a $2000 difference between the two.

if her customers hadnt made a stink, would the attorney general be involved?

how would they know a "crime" had been committed according to their screwy laws

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 8:58:07 GMT -5 cereb said:

Apr 12, 2013 8:57:03 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

They MUST serve pig.  According to me and my rights as a consumer.  They must do whatever I ask them to do, and they have NO RIGHT to refuse service to me for ANY reason.

You are not even in the ballpark.

OK, then- I want them to cater my Christian wedding.  Nevermind the PIG, they can't do it because of all the infidels. Now, what say you?

[Deleted]

Well, now because she has been interviewed on the local news affirming her illegal discrimination.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Same situation- they will SERVE infidels, they will HIRE infidels, but they draw the line at catering the wedding-- no Imam, infidels as far as the eye can see- they just won't do it. Or here- for extra fun- let's say the Muslim restaurant won't cater a GAY wedding- because you can rest assured they will NOT do that.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 9:31:09 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 8:58:07 GMT -5 cereb said:

You are not even in the ballpark.

OK, then- I want them to cater my Christian wedding.  Nevermind the PIG, they can't do it because of all the infidels. Now, what say you?

What kind of "Christian" food would you like at your wedding?

Keep in mind if they say they don't serve pork products but do serve all other meats, you have no lawsuit.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2013 9:31:09 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 12, 2013 8:58:07 GMT -5 cereb said:

You are not even in the ballpark.

OK, then- I want them to cater my Christian wedding.  Nevermind the PIG, they can't do it because of all the infidels. Now, what say you?

Are you asking them to perform your Christian wedding?

[cereb]

Apr 12, 2013 9:33:28 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Same situation- they will SERVE infidels, they will HIRE infidels, but they draw the line at catering the wedding-- no Imam, infidels as far as the eye can see- they just won't do it. Or here- for extra fun- let's say the Muslim restaurant won't cater a GAY wedding- because you can rest assured they will NOT do that.

no, your made up situation still isn't in the ballpark.